Katieann Vogel on Unblocking Yourself, Finding Fulfillment & Creating Art with Kahran

This week we talk with Katieann Vogel about the creative process

Katieann: Hi, I'm Katieann.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Karin. And this is thinking on thinking. Hello and welcome to this episode of thinking on thinking. This week we talk with Katieann Vogel, and it's an incredible conversation. We talk about the creative process, what it means to be a poet, what it means to find your path. Katieann is someone who has explored so many different parts of life, having been an outdoor adventure guide, and even building a professional limerick writing business, early in her career. It's an incredible conversation, and we can't wait for you to hear it.

Katieann: Your podcast is amazing. So, yeah, I am like.

Do you have a favorite episode yet on the podcast

Kahran: Well, I was just gonna ask what your favorite episode is. Do you have a favorite episode yet?

Katieann: Yes, I have a favorite. It's one I went back to, so I guess that's why it makes it my favorite. I don't know if she's been on multiple times, but. Sam Arnie.

Kahran: Yeah, yeah, that was like, two episodes ago. Yeah, yeah.

Katieann: Just very recent. Yeah, yeah. Just a very, very inspiring presence and person, and it was just exciting to hear how you two think about thinking. Surprise, surprise.

Kahran: Yeah. She's an interesting one because she wrote a book when she was, like, twelve, which was like, a bestseller. New York Times bestseller, I think. No, she wrote it when she was ten, and so it was a best seller when she was twelve. and it would just be so crazy to have that kind of success so early in life. Was it the success parts that you found so interesting? That was, I mean, part. It was such an interesting conversation, but I just felt like some of her thoughts on success were so interesting.

Katieann: I think for me, this is will speak to where I'm at in my life. I think even just coming out of the past for kind of strange, isolated years and maybe being a poet as well. Right now, I'm very tuned into, literally just how people are speaking. So is, ah, somebody speaking fast? Is somebody speaking slowly? And I could just. I guess what fascinated me was I just heard a lot of passion and how you two were speaking to each other. And for whatever reason, I was really, really drawn in by that.

Kahran: that's so interesting.

Katieann: Yeah.

Kahran: So not even so much the word choice is what you're saying. Right. It's like the way of speaking is kind of what you're saying. Right, right.

Katieann: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Like, not the vocabulary, not the diction, but it's like the tone and the mood of the conversation. And I just. I feel like that's something that happens a lot on this podcast. The mood, and the tone is extremely inviting and a little bit different than anything else I'm listening to, and I think I'm really, really drawn to that right now. What am I hearing here that I literally couldn't hear anywhere else? And I feel like that happens a lot when you have these conversations.

Kahran: That's really cool.

Not everyone thinks about identity the way I think about identity

I've been kind of worried. I've been telling Katieann that I feel like we need to have some unifying threads. So at first, I was like, oh, I'm going to ask everyone about identity. And then it just didn't work, because not everyone thinks about identity the way I think about identity. Whereas, like, I'm not sure if you heard some of those episodes, but, like, I feel like there's, like, almost, like, an artist's identity, which I feel like is part of, like, for me, at least, of being an artist, that I feel like I have to, I don't know, both, like, grow into that identity, but then also grow that identity within me. but it was so interesting talking to Sam, because it just felt like Sam was not so much in that identity place. Like, she was not so worried about it. It's like. It was, like, almost felt, like, to her, the. That looking for an identity wasn't even a thing.

Katieann: Right.

Kahran: Do you feel, like, resonance with that? I mean, as an artist yourself, do you feel like it's an identity to you, or. It's like, I don't know. How do you feel about it?

Katieann: Yeah, I think I aspire to not think about it so much. I think the reality of my life is thinking on thinking, and my aspiration would be not thinking about not thinking.

Kahran: Yeah.

Katieann: I think where I'm at at the moment is that I try to use my fixations and preoccupations or obsessions about identity, for example, as artistic tools. So I try to identify the thing I'm interested in and either identify. Okay, is this something I want to take an actionable step to develop in my. Me life of the physical body of myself, or is this more of an art project that I am painting about or writing about? and I think that helps me not kind of spin on an endless loop about it. or, you know, I could leave it alone, but I guess it helps for me to identify when I'm hung up on anything. It could be identity. It could be.

Kahran: Is it fair to say if it's an art project, it's more like, of an experiment, and then that's, like, less of a big deal. Is that right?

Katieann: Wow, that sounds right. I like that. Can I use that? I like that a lot. How about for you? I'm curious.

Kahran: Well, at least for me, it feels like there are certain things that are good things to do or the right thing to do. And that's where it starts to become these big questions of like, oh, if I do that, will I not be a good person? Right? Or if I do that, will I still not be. Will I not be the person I think I am? Right? I was thinking about it earlier today that if people are crossing, like, pedestrians are crossing and I'm cycling, I'll try not to go, even if I'm clear that I'm not going to hit them, because I really don't like the way cyclists will cut off pedestrians in New York City. And I was thinking about it where for me, it's almost become an identity thing, where I'm like, oh, I can't be. It would be hypocritical of me to run this red light because I would scold someone who did this, and I was like, well, who cares?

Katieann: Well, I'm curious. Who does care? Like, what happens for you? like, who does care? I mean, because obviously somebody does, and it's you. But I wonder what in your head is instructing you to care? You know, what are the influences that say, I need to be very rigid about this with myself?

Kahran: I think for me, being hypocritical just feels like the worst. Right. I feel like it undermines your credibility and it means you're someone who can.

Katieann: That makes a lot of sense.

Kahran: So I have, like, really strong feelings about, like, like, people who are not true to themselves. Right. If you can, like, be differently in all these different situations, that just feels to me, like, really wrong. Like, you should understand yourself. That is, like, the great work of life is to understand yourself well enough that you can do these things. Like, be consistent. But then I, like, I know that's an impossible standard, right? Like, we cannot all be consistent all the time. Like, sometimes you're tired, sometimes it's whatever happens, you know, you're not the perfect parenthood because you were frustrated that day and you yell at your child, right? There's a million ways we're not going to be perfectly consistent or perfectly the person we want to be. I don't know. Sometimes it's very hard for me to, like, accept that.

Katieann: Well, yeah. Yes, I think your extrapolation is appropriate. and it's just interesting to me that, you know, when I asked you what are the influences that tell you, you must be consistent. I guess I was expecting you to say, like my parents said this, or the place I grew up said this. And it's so interesting that there's this kind of amorphous, idealistic angel or devil that is sitting.

You talk about separating morality and shame. Does that resonate with you?

Kahran: It feels like morality, almost like it's a moral thing.

Katieann: Yeah.

Kahran: Yeah. Does that resonate with you? Like, do you feel that way and sometimes in these questions or. It doesn't really reach that moral dimension almost.

Katieann: I have gone on a long morality journey in my life, I think, just the way I was raised, religiously and spiritually. And so that is a question I ask myself a lot, but at the moment, it doesn't. At the moment, it doesn't strike me as moral. So it's interesting that it rings really moral for you.

Kahran: Yeah. Because I think the thing that I struggle with is almost questions of shame, right. Where it would feel shameful to nothing, do these things or to, like, behave.

Katieann: In that way that makes sense to me. But see, that's interesting in a way. You know, of course, shame and morality are so intertwined, but just in the moment for me there, and maybe this is something I'm doing to help myself work through these emotional things. I feel a separation, a bit, between morality and shame. Shame, I think I've done this to, again, help myself, like, work through, whatever I'm working through. But shame for me, I think these days is almost like sneezing or something. It's almost like in my brain, like a shame light goes on and it's just like, okay, bless you. Move on.

Kahran: Oh, wow. So you're like, oh, you can acknowledge it's there and kind of accept it.

Katieann: Yeah, yeah. because I think for me, I am a person who has kind of an allergic reaction to any emotion, especially a negative emotion. And so I've learned for myself to be kind of my own antihistamine. you know, it's like, okay, yep, I see, I got it. Emotion, like, make a decision about it and then just move on.

Kahran: That's great. I mean, honestly, like, it feels like, the theories I read and, like, some of the things that really resonate with me, it's like. Like, the way to deal with your emotions or to engage with your emotions is like, to acknowledge them and validate them for yourself, that this is, you know, legitimate to be feeling this way. And then, if at all possible, like, kind of engage with it or kind of return to what you were doing. And it sounds like you really do that.

Katieann: God bless Brene Brown. And my therapist, I guess those are the two people we have to thank. and I will cite a specific book that I. Two, ah, specific books that were helpful to me. Have you heard of the chemistry of joy workbook?

Kahran: No.

Katieann: This is my understanding. It's kind of a classic mental, health workbook, whether for anxiety or depression. And it kind of focuses in on those, kind of what you're saying, interrupting those pathways, that it helps you kind of take a look at that pathway and kind of make decisions about it. And then another, I'm a big fan of workbooks, apparently very, very helpful on my journey. the book, mind over mood, oh.

Kahran: I don't know this one either.

Katieann: These are, well, chemistry of joy, I don't think is, like, thick, but mind over mood looks like whatever, hooked on phonics, like, thick workbook you had as an elementary schooler. and it's kind of that same thing. It kind of puts a numerical assessment to things that you're thinking or feeling and then lets you look at things in a bit of a slowed down way. So I will credit those books as well.

Do you feel like structured learning works well for you or unstructured learning

Kahran: Do you feel like you're someone who structured learning works well for, or do you even feel like that is structured learning, or do you feel like. I don't know, because you can do it on your own time, but I guess it's somewhat structured because it's in a form.

Katieann: I feel like I fall and I go to different things for different learnings. I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this as well. I feel like, for me, a big teacher, in my life and a big part of my professional life and my personal life has been being in the outdoors and also creating art or enjoying art. And I feel like a lot of being in the outdoors and being an artist or enjoying art is unstructured. It's so vital to both of those experiences to just take everything in and be improvisational about whatever is happening and to really fully accept whatever's happening. But in art, as well as outdoor work as well as anything else, there's also technical skills and experience that I feel like for me, structured learning is really good. So there's that kind of disciplined aspect of learning and the experiential side. And I feel like for me, I get the best sense of how something works when I can touch both of those.

Kahran: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Like, you never found creating art to be, like it was always an outlet for you, if you will. Is that fair? Is that the right way to say it. Like, I was just trying to think about that.

Katieann: Yeah, I think it is. Well, I mean, it depends on the art, I guess. I don't remember, what kind of.

Kahran: Art do you create, for example?

Katieann: Yeah, well, there was a period of time in my life when I ran a wildly successful limerick writing business. not kidding you. there was one, I think it was just a few years in my life, but one season, wherever this felt more, commercial than expressive. For example, you know, I had clients that, you know, okay, I want a limerick to give my aunt because it's her birthday, or I have limerick for my cousin, for Hanukkah or whatever it is. And so that there was like money and a task attached to that.

Kahran: Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's so interesting. And you, and you made them rhyme, like, sure, yeah, or you made like all sorts. I mean, I remember some of your limerick.

Katieann: Unless requested otherwise. Yes.

Kahran: Wow. So you're being creative on demand and you mentioned.

Katieann: Yeah, I think for some ways I can, so for like Limerick, I can be creative on demand, graphic design. I feel like, you know, kind of for me, smaller things. Like if I were to write like a short song or a short, like if it's, I don't know, if something is like a minute long in a metaphorical sense, that is like where I can be commercially successful about it or.

Kahran: Like easily prolific, is that maybe.

Katieann: Yeah, prolific, yeah, yeah. And then I think the things where I can't, I, I guess I'm talking about like timelines and deadlines. I think I can be deadlined for shorter things, but often I am surprised about if I'm creating something for myself, I'm usually surprised about how long or short of, time it takes to create.

Kahran: Interesting. I feel like when I'm creating things, I don't know, I feel it fell a lot of resonance with what you were saying just now because creating short things is very easy to me. I can write short poetry, I'll just write it right. and for me, most of my artistic outputs are in words. but for longer form, it's just like, it really can be hard. And for some reason, I don't look at the short form as valuable. I have a lot of trouble appreciating my shorter form works because I'm like, oh, it didn't take me that long. It's not that cool. I should revise it more.

Do you feel like your shorter, smaller works have value?

I was curious, do you feel that way or you kind of don't judge your art, hopefully m you, well, you're talking to me.

Katieann: You've caught me at, Like, I'm, so happy we didn't do this, like, last year. I feel like a lot has happened for me. I found to myself, at least, so centered in the moment.

Kahran: Wow, you're sound great.

Katieann: Thank you so much.

Kahran: I feel like I was gonna ask you to do an introduction at the end, but I feel like we keep, like, running into your background, that we really need to have it. You do it. So maybe you answer the question first. I'll ask you to give yourself an introduction.

Katieann: Any good?

Kahran: yeah.

Katieann: I liked your question about, do I feel like my shorter, smaller works have value? Yeah, I think I actually fall. I'm too precious about my small works. I often will become kind of so either enamored with these little things I've done that I won't push myself to keep going. And, like, that's not the final thing. Like, that cute little thing you did. You're actually capable of more. So I actually think I am overly precious about, you know, I'll make a small. I like to use, oil pastels. and I'll make a very small piece of art, you know, five inch by five inch or something. And I'm like, oh, it's perfect. And it's like, okay, maybe, like, get a bigger canvas and try something bigger, you know? But that. So, yeah, to your point, I guess I'm undervaluing the little thing.

Kahran: Well, that's what I wonder. Yeah. Cause, wow. Come. You need to make it bigger.

Katieann: So funny. Yeah, maybe it's exactly. You're spot on. I guess I do.

Kahran: That's interesting.

Katieann: Yeah.

Kahran: But you feel like you really appreciate them. At least it's the feeling you feel about them. Like you don't feel like. Like working with Katieann for as long as I have now. I. She's really helped me realize that I have this tendency to be like, oh, I made it really easily. Anyone could do that. And it's like, no, just because it's something I could make easily doesn't mean other people have that capability or it's not. I realize that now, but it doesn't sound like you have that same struggle. Like, that's not how you're. You're not undervaluing your small works because of that. You don't think they're easy because it was easy for you, or you don't think they're not valuable.

Katieann: Well, you know, I think it's. I have, for whatever reason, kind of a dual view. I think. Usually I do think anybody could make something? And then I also realized that anybody didn't. You know, I did. Like, it's like when.

Kahran: Oh, that's a really cool way of.

Katieann: Thinking, just a dual way to look at something. because I wind up thinking that sometimes about works of art that I experience, I go, I could have made that. And then it's like, you know, but I didn't. That person trained or that person put in the work to get where they got, in whatever way, and they succeeded. And that success is amazing. So, yeah, I think applying that, that to myself is helpful, too.

Kahran: I did hear a podcast a while ago, where they talked specifically about that emotion, and as an artist, that emotion. And it does tell you something about, at least like, yourself as an artist, right? Because it's not like every piece of art you look at and you're like, oh, I could have done that. But there'll be certain ones, and there'll be. I don't know. Unfortunately, I don't remember it well enough to recount it for you, but it tells you something about yourself and,

Katieann: How you might m. Yeah, well, I'd be curious if that emotion had a name, either in English or another language, you know?

Kahran: I mean, it's jealous.

Katieann: The wreck? Yeah. Is it called jealousy? Yeah. Okay, maybe it's.

Kahran: I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to put it in your mouth if it's.

Katieann: I mean, you may have just solved the mystery. Well, I think.

Kahran: Yeah.

Katieann: yeah, it might just be jealousy. I think what I was reaching for was something like. It's like a twist on jealousy. And I think there's. I'm too embarrassed to say this out loud.

There's a word that I can't pronounce that's popular in popular culture

There's a word that I can't pronounce that I see, like, written about in popular culture all the time, that I think is very popular right now. Schadenfreude.

Kahran: Oh, schadenfreude.

Katieann: What is that? And I feel like it's related to what we're saying, but is that not related to what we're saying? Can you just explain it to me? It's not.

Kahran: It's kind of, So I know it because there was a musical called, Avenue Q when I moved to New York. Have you ever heard of Avenue Q?

Katieann: I heard of it. Never seen it.

Kahran: Okay, so Avenue Q has puppets for, like, half of the characters in it, part of the conceit of Avenue Q. And the puppets, at one point sing this song called schreidefreude, and it's a german word, and so it's taking pleasure in other people's pain or misfortune. And so, yes, they're singing it about, like, how sometimes you feel bad about it, or do you feel bad? Do you just find yourself being like. And like.

Katieann: Yeah, so I feel like it's related.

Kahran: Because I see what you're saying. Yeah.

Katieann: The feeling I'm describing is feeling kind of neutral. like, not even being happy for somebody's success. I think that's a different thing. But I think as an artist, or even as a person, just being able to feel neutrally happy without mixing your own self and ego in somebody's success is that maybe that's literally just being happy for someone. I might be making this, but this is a lot of the work I do as a writer. I'd be curious to hear if you do all. I spend a lot of time, instead of, with paints, mixing red and blue and white to make some sort of lavender, you play with all the words and say, okay, is that a different thing or is it not?

Kahran: Oh, how interesting. So you find sometimes you're chasing nuance to think of the different. Oh, that's so interesting.

Katieann: And different languages do it so well. And so it's kind of fun. If you're working in a specific language, you say, okay, that other language does this. Well, how would I say that in this language?

Kahran: Oh, how cool.

Katieann: Yeah.

Kahran: But as, someone who doesn't speak the language, how do you do that?

Katieann: I think people can speak most languages, right? I mean, how many languages do you speak? You know? I only speak a few. Well, but I think if a person can speak two languages averagely, which is probably where I'm at, I. You can kind of make enough patterns together that you can at least amuse yourself with kind of teasing out little puzzles of other languages. So maybe I can't speak it at all. But, I can make.

Kahran: Could you give me an example?

Katieann: M. Yeah. Yeah, let me. Well, this, you know, scheidenfreude. You just. Is that. Is that it you just taught. You just taught me that. And my. My last name is Vogel. It's a, german word, for birdhouse. So you would think I would speak German. I do not. Yeah, or maybe you would think I speak German. I don't know. So without even knowing too much German, I guess I just start with how the word makes me feel coming from my native languages, which are Spanish, English, and Czech. And so I guess I kind of put it through my own filters of do these words. Do those sounds. Not even words have any association for me. And so I hear Freuda and I think of, What? Why can I think of the famous, psychoanalyst.

Kahran: Freud.

Katieann: Freud. Okay. Okay. So I just. That's what I think of. And then, I don't really have any, I guess the way. The way the word is written, I think, is s c h a d a. That's right.

Kahran: Yeah. Or there's an e in there, too, somewhere. Yeah. S c h e a.

Katieann: Or maybe when I was reading it and didn't know how to pronounce it, it kind of looked like shady to me.

Kahran: Yeah.

Katieann: So I guess in my head, my own, kind of linguistic and cultural biases led me to, in my head, just make this kind of connotative assumption that it was like somebody's being a shady psychoanalyst, which, is not at all what the word is. But when I learn. When I learn what the word is, I can amuse myself and say, okay, I was wrong, but not all the way wrong.

You're multilingual and I wonder if that can be taken too far

Ah, so maybe that works best with, germanic and, romance languages and wouldn't, because you're multilingual. So I wonder if there's bridges not.

Kahran: Nearly as well as you. I mean, I feel like I can speak, like, English and some amount of Spanish, but really, that's it. I cannot speak any Hindi or Punjabi, which are my mother tongues. I mean, maybe a little bit of Hindi at this point because I've done a lot of duolingo, but not, like, a credible amount. But it's just interesting to hear you because, I don't know if I told you, actually, I'm pretty sure I did tell you, but last summer, I went to a poetry workshop in Boulder, and I ended up working with this person who had us write in languages that we hadn't mastered. And so we were writing poetry in all of these, like, foreign languages. And it felt so alien and difficult to me. but I think I wasn't able to bring a mindset like you kind of just had, which was, let me tease out what I know. And also, so much of language is an interpretation, right? Like, we have a certain cultural context that we're bringing to bear to say, like, oh, you know, a cup means this. Now, did a cup mean this, like, 200 years ago? No, there was a different mental image of what a cup is, you know? And so I feel like in some ways, like you're doing a similar thing. You're unpacking the definition of the word. In the context that you have, and then that maybe a context has full meaning of the word or it doesn't. that's really interesting. I feel like that's part of, like, your artistic voice.

Katieann: Yeah. And I think, you know, there can be a danger in that when taken too far, it can be arrogant and culturally appropriative. You know, if. Okay, I could understand, you know, I can make of this other language whatever I want, or I can make it my own language, whatever I want. That's not going to be everyone's experience or benefit oneself or anyone. but I think there is. I mean, that's where the art and the beauty, being an artist in whatever medium, you know, you have to. We take up space on this earth. We have a voice, we have a vision, and we are allotted that. So I can take up my own amount of space in the way I see things or the way I hear things. And just as you said, it changes with time anyway. So it can be really fun to twist it.

Kahran: It's just interesting the way you answered me. Right, like, that. You almost think about it as part of kind of living your fullest or truest self almost is like being true to yourself in that way, if I may.

Katieann: Yeah. It, in a weird way, kind of reminds me of. I think I'm revealing where I have my morality judgments about stopping for cycling. That's what I was just thinking for me. I didn't realize it even, but I think this is where the little devil sits on my shoulder and says, I don't even know. But it's like, this is the way to think, kind of.

Kahran: It's interesting because I feel like in my conversations with Katieann, she almost has a similar. I don't know if we'll call it a devil or an angel, but being, like, you must create things. You must produce art. and it's so important to her that it's very central to who she is. And it's just really interesting to me because for me, it's such a struggle to produce, Oh, it's so hard for me. I have so many, kind of reasons I'll create so many things of, like, so many impediments to myself. Vivienne actually had a funny thing she said this morning where she's like, it's kind of amazing watching you sometimes. Cause, like, you have a 200 pound weight on you, but you still manage every now and then to be able to, like, It's. Yeah. And it's so. It's so inspiring. To me, sometimes to hear people, like, just in the way you've managed, you have a very different relationship, with. With creating things and with looking at, you know, what makes you feel like you've done useful things and what makes you feel like you're living. And as you said, the kind of, like, the space and taking up the space that you want to take up in this life. that's amazing.

Katieann: Well, and it's interesting, as you're. When I hear you say you have this two, or, Katieann, or you were saying this 200 pound weight on you, I'm picturing it just as this big cartoon anvil. And I think if I were to visualize my own weights, for me, I think it would be 200 individual one pound weights that are like a minefield. And so I think part of the joy of, yeah. Talking artist to artist is seeing, like, oh, like, I don't know, it's kind of all the same. And, this looks easy for me, or this looks easy for you, but we're kind of doing the same thing, you know, because you make, to me, you make what you do in your writing and your art look very easy, very effortless. But that's obviously not your experience, you know?

Kahran: Yeah. And it's interesting, it kind of goes back to what we were saying a few minutes ago, that I can write poetry or do things that are almost, like, reactionary, if you will. Right. But when I want to sit down and work on these longer term projects, it's so difficult. but things that are very small and, like, oh, this only took me five minutes. That is just like, oh, that I don't worry about as much. I don't know. But then, now that I've spent more time with other artists, I've also realized even the fact I write a few poems every week or every month is just like. It's actually very prolific. Like, there's many people who don't write like that at all.

Katieann: the whole. Like, the whole phase, as an artist, of. Do you consider yourself an artist or a poet or a writer or whatever? And clearing that hurdle? And there is such a long time in life. It's different for everybody. I'm m speaking for myself, I suppose, where. Yeah, you're not actually producing a poem a week or something, and so you don't consider yourself a poet or an artist yet, and then at some point, you kind of hopefully cross over if you want to, and you're like, oh, yeah, I'm. That.

Kahran: Maybe I'll grab that as a segue? Cause I would just be curious about it. Cause, you know, as you obviously know. But maybe I'll share for our listeners. Like, we met, on a hike in the woods right before college started. It was amazing. we had an amazing time. And then later, we both kind, of shared the same advisor. He wasn't officially, I think, either of our advisors. and I kind of knew you as this person kind of, like, interested in computer science and, like, was doing some things there. I'm curious, like, when did you start to think about yourself as an artist? Were you already thinking about yourself as an artist in those days, or was that kind of a journey?

When did you start computer science? You know, it was sophomore year

Katieann: That's so funny. I. You know, this has been popping up. I've been seeing more and more college friends lately, and my computer science days have been popping up more and more. The community, kind of the circle I run in now would be surprised to hear that so did. Yeah, I considered myself as an artist then, but in a, pretty aspirational way. You know, we also. You and I also knew each other as dancers. I don't know if that's, like, something you share.

Kahran: Yes. Yes. I feel you should give a little segue about the fact that Katie choreographed. I guess you didn't choreograph. You directed, the dance.

Katieann: Choreographed? Yeah.

Kahran: Sorry. You directed and choreographed multiple dances, but, directed one major production, that has, like, 300 people dancing in it. It's incredible. And, like, thousands of people come to watch it. The entire school comes to watch it. it's an incredible production. It was an amazing experience. I still remember that experience. The highlight of those years.

Katieann: Tufts dance collective. yeah, so I think, yeah, I definitely considered myself an artist, and I actually studied calligraphy at tufts in undergraduate, and, I was studying a little bit of everything. So it was a history of the sea, an ocean history major. And, so I was studying. That was writing. It was nonfiction, but I was writing all the time. And then I was taking some literature courses and calligraphy courses, and meanwhile, spending a lot of time in the woods.

Kahran: And then when did you start computer science?

Katieann: You know, it was to fulfill, I think it was sophomore year, potentially. And my advisor said, well, you need a math credit. And I was like, no, thank you. And he said, why don't you try computer science? I think I tried a math course, and, it's not that I don't like math. I just think there are other things that captured my attention, and I took. Started taking computer science courses, and I think just like, there are patterns in art and poetry. I think the patterns in the computer science was something that I was easily able to pick up on. And I liked the technical, and applicable product and kind of the scientific side of things. I could more easily see at that time, how to kind of commodify a computer, science product than I understood at the time, how to basically make a living from art. So I was kind of diversifying my academic portfolio.

Kahran: Oh, absolutely. I mean, that was a huge thing. I remember when I was trying to decide my major, I was like, well, because I had taken a lot of political science classes, I had taken, like, I can't remember, there was something where somehow there was like creative writing counted to like a fine art minor or something. There was something, right? So I almost had done that. and I was like, but what are these? Is actually going to like, be useful to me. So I ended up declaring as computer science and minoring in economics.

Katieann: I didn't know that. Wow, so you were very like 2009.

Kahran: Yeah, I'm gonna get a job that will make money.

Katieann: That is really. And here you are. I mean, you chose really well.

Kahran: Yeah, well, yeah, I don't know, you could, because the other way I could think about is it took me like twelve years to get to this point, right? Whereas maybe if I had indulged more of the like artistic sides of my personality, it wouldn't have taken me so long or been so hard, you know? I don't know. I mean, wait, so, but hold on, you didn't answer my question fully. So did you, so did you. So you thought of yourself as an artist then, but you were like, I'm gonna choose things that, to diversify myself. Is that the right way to.

Katieann: Well, no, I think I just, I've always felt about art that it's kind of the, I'm struggling for a more clever metaphor, so I'll just say the umbrella, that includes all things. So I think computer science can fall under art. You know, for me, like, there can be so many influences in a person's life and I think that umbrella can change. You know, art can fall under computer science as well, if that's, that's how your mind is working on that day. So, yeah, I think, Yeah, I think different.

Kahran: It was never like as much of a dichotomy. Sorry, if I may, you weren't so much like, oh, I'm an artist or I'm something else. I can just be, I can create art as part of my life.

Katieann: Yeah, I think you're teaching me something about myself in this conversation. Much like I, kind of. You can play with words and languages in a certain way, I guess. I see art and science, for example. Nothing so much as this or that. Two sides of a coin. I see there's different, subjects form. Maybe the sides are individual cubes of a Rubik's cube. And, you can put all the. You can solve the cube and say, okay, red is art and yellow is science and green is business. Or you can kind of mix it up a bit and it's not as clear cut, but it's still all there and it. So I guess that's to say they're. Yeah, I don't see it as much of a dichotomy.

Kahran: Yeah, that's really interesting. And also, you don't feel like it necessarily should be in a certain way.

Katieann: I think if I. Yeah, well, I think so. It's funny, I'm a, role that I play.

Currently, professionally, I work with a lot of university students in arts and sciences

Currently, professionally, I work with a lot of university students in arts and sciences. And I guess both what I would have found helpful and what I did find helpful when I was a university and high school student, as well as what I'm seeing in students that I'm working with now, is that it's much more helpful if the subject comes to meet the student, whether or instead of the student going to meet the subject. So I think of, you know, every person, they're just kind of their own world, and they can do whatever amazing thing and deserve all the support that they need to accomplish that. And it's, in my opinion, not very necessary in the end, to make it fit neatly in something. But it is, along the way, helpful to stop and touch different things so that you can kind of see what rubs off on you.

Kahran: Theme music is by Akshay Ramuhali of BTrpt. Music editing is by Beatner. Music.

Katieann is an ocean poet. Hi, I'm Katieann

Katieann: Hi, I'm Katieann, and I am an ocean poet. And I have, spent many years personally and professionally in the outdoors as an outdoor guide and educator, as well as in the arts. Ah, doing calligraphy and poetry and visual art and some dance. A little bit of everything, I guess. So ocean, poet seems to sum it up. Whether it be creating my own work or leading expeditions or working with groups of people, that is who I am and what I do.