Anurati Srivastva on Games and Game Design with Divya

Today we talk to Anriti Srivastava about making games

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya. Hi, I'm Karin. And this is thinking on thinking. Welcome to this episode of thinking on thinking. Today we talk to Anriti Srivastava, who is a game designer, and we talk about how she got into making games, especially for children, and educational games media. Its impact on us, how she feels about making games collaboratively. And we talk about a lot of different games because both of us are interested in narrative games. I hope you enjoy. Hi, Anurati. So, do you want to just, like, tell a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Anurati Srivastva: Hi, Divya. So, I'm Anurati. I am a, learning game designer and a new media artist. And currently I run my own design, studio called Pedal Studio, which is short for playful experience, design and learning. And mainly I designed games for social impact, social change, designing digital learning experiences for children and young people. And, yeah, that's what I've been doing for a long time. And it's been two years since I started my practice. And before that, I was working with, UNESCO's games for learning team.

Kathal: Learning games is hard. I have no other words for it

That's me.

Divya: One of the most curious things that, when we met, and, like, one of the most interesting things that I thought, which I didn't get a chance to ask you, is, like, from my experience of making games, making. Learning games is irritating. I have no other words for it. It's like, making something fun is hard. Teaching somebody something is hard. Why do you want to do it together? It's like, why did you choose that as, like, this is the thing that I'm going to spend all my time doing.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, I think, okay. Like, you know, there are so many answers, to this. Like, I also think anything worth doing is not going to be very easy. So it's always fun to do something very, very challenging. But where it actually comes from is that when I was growing up, I got access to some very cool education games, but which were actually bit of both, like, good education and also good games. Like, there was jump ahead, and there was another, like, two, three of these games, which are like, they were about learning something. So, like, I think my, mom also bought these cds because it was like, okay, this is an educational game. I think there were some games that I played where implicitly it was about learning something, or, like, learning how to manage your life. so there was, this another game. I used to really love this game. It was called Chow Bella. We had to basically, ah, it was a 2d game, and you had to manage this girl's life. And there were different bars indicating how well she's managing her life. So there was health, there was finance, there was harmony in your life. It was like. And there was something about friends and, like, relationships, like how good your relationships are, things like that. And, it would open up to an overview of, of a city. like a bird's eye view of a city. So there was the gym, there was the home, there was the church. You could, like, go pray at the church. You could go gym. And within the gym, you could do yoga, you could go swimming, and you could do other things. The overall point of the game was, you know, of course, it was a product of its time. So it might sound, quite regressive and sexist now, but, like, the whole point was that, she was basically, she had met a guy, and across ten levels, that friendship was supposed to bloom to marriage. Like, they were like. So basically every level would end in a day. And, the whole point of each level was that you have to maintain your health, your work, finances, all of that. So you are, you know, happy enough to kind of impress this person. So there were also, like, all these dilemmas with your family that, okay, someone needs money, so you need to work extra hours, and that reduces your harmony and health. If you work work more, your finances go up, but your health reduces.

Divya: And you also almost like real life. Like real life.

Anurati Srivastva: And you always have to eat at the right time because otherwise, you know, your health again goes down and you're not fit enough for the date. So, you know, it's, it was, it was very interesting to me at that time. Like, like, imagine, like, you know, I think as a child having that kind of agency that, okay, you know, these are, some real choices that will have to be made, and they will have real actions. And I think I was always very interested in designing for, children because I think, there is something very unique about, designing for children because I think one, as a designer, it's quite exciting to try to look at things from the lens of a child.

Divya: When you don't know anything. You have no concept of the world. Like, I am a blank slate.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, right. And at the same time, kids are very judgmental. You know, they are the harshest users. It's like they'll just tell you on your face, you know, and I can make better games than this, which I got. And then this girl, she was actually, you know, we were, I was, making games for Katha, which is a nonprofit in Delhi. And there was this school in, they have a school in Govindpuri, and this girl, she's like, 25 USD, and this is some seven, eight years ago. And I was like, wow, how do you. How do you know all of this? So I think just designing for children, because at that age, you know, you're. If you're exposed to some concepts, you know, even if it's as simple as that, the main character is a girl who is leading a free, independent life, getting educated instead of a boy doing the same thing, or maybe some things which are told in the indian context. I think it's very powerful because most of us didn't grow up seeing the characters, you know, that are, lived like us. Yeah. Who look like us, talk like us, relatable. so I think there's a lot of value in creating that kind of media for children. And also because I don't think I had access to all that media, but certainly books, I did. Like, I grew up with a lot of books. So I think that's another thing that I feel strongly about, that, you know, the wealth of literature that we have from India, translated literature, even the characters, storytelling narratives that we have, we can transform these into very powerful games. My first job was exactly that, because in katha, like, they are knowing, like, they publish a lot of stories in different, indian languages. And also just taking from indian literature, ensuring, like, the characters are contextualized, a lot of stories to do with gender culture equity. So when I came in, my whole, task was to translate that into a digital experience. So I ended up, like, making a game on, Madhubani art, because there was a book and story that was completely done in Madhubani.

Divya: Okay.

Anurati Srivastva: And, it was a story of a girl who grew up in, Yeah, Madhubani is the. Yeah, it's the place.

Divya: Name of a place also.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, yeah. So she was there, and her story of her family and all of it done in Madhubani. And the game was actually picking up resources from, again, a Madhupani landscape. So, because everything is a natural, element in the painting. So finding the natural elements for the child and then ultimately, like, a colouring game done in Madhubani. So now, if you think about it, the mechanic is very simple, right? Like, there's. It's a clicking game and then a coloring game. But the fact that we don't have anything clickable or interactive, which is done in Madhubani, is just like, yeah, yeah.

Divya: Makes it unique.

Anurati Srivastva: He makes it unique. Yeah. And I just feel there's so much that can be done just by with like, existing indian forms, which are. Yeah. Ah. Either in visual print or in maybe text form, which are yet to go interactive.

Do you play a lot of games or do you prefer shorter ones

Divya: Do you play a lot of games?

Anurati Srivastva: I don't, I don't think I play a lot of games. I play, like, games, shorter games on itch. And I usually prefer, like, games that are of a shorter duration and usually, games that are visual novels or a lot of narrative based. Like Florence. Yeah, yeah.

Divya: What are some games that you would say, you know, like you played in the last, whatever year or so that like, really stuck with you?

Anurati Srivastva: So there was venba that I really liked.

Divya: Oh, I have, like, I have just started Venba. I haven't gone too much into it.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, venba is really nice. And I also like gree, g rising.

Divya: Love it.

Anurati Srivastva: Love that game. Oh, my God.

Divya: Yeah, it's interesting. Like when you were talking about how you've grown up playing educational games, I, think I grew up playing like, more story based games. And even in the games that like, you know, didn't have too much a story, like, let's say age of empires or something, they would always have like, that campaign mode. Right. And I would just play that and I would, like, read up the encyclopedia of the game to understand what the story is. and it's interesting because, like, now I'm like, way more interested in playing like, story based games. So like short to medium length, like maybe not super long games or like, you know, especially not games that like, you know, are very repeatedly. You're just playing them. Playing them. Says the person who has spent thousand plus hours in dota. But we don't talk about that.

Anurati Srivastva: Don't talk about that. Yeah, yeah, but, yeah, as a child I played a lot of diner dash, so even repetitive games, I played like a lot. Yeah, but we don't talk about that anymore.

Divya: No, cozy games are great. Like those games where you're like, I am just farming. Yes, please let me farm on the pixels. Not in the sun.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah. In some. In an air conditioned room.

Divya: Yeah. Like you said, like, you know, there are different sliders in the Ford was the name. Ciao Bella. was the name of the game.

Anurati Srivastva: Right.

Divya: Like, give me the sliders. Do I want to be on an actual dating app? No, not really.

Anurati Srivastva: Who is going to meet people in real life?

Divya: Exactly.

Anurati Srivastva: Tolerate another human being? No, not for me.

Divya: I mean, you know, somewhat just controlled interactions are better. I know.

You created a dating bot game using AI. What was the bot love game about

Oh, speaking of that, I really liked the. What was the bot love game that you. The dating bot game.

Anurati Srivastva: A suitable bot. A suitable bot, yeah.

Divya: I just want you to talk me through why you decided to make it the way you decided to make it.

Anurati Srivastva: First.

Divya: I gave up all of my personal data, and I didn't even get the date at the end of it.

Anurati Srivastva: Yes. Did you go retry? No. You were like, I'm done.

Divya: No, I didn't. I was like, I will accept this as the canon ending.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah. So the initial idea was to make a game on. So it was a part of a game jam where the focus was on media literacy. and I was very intrigued by the idea of AI deepfakes and how to identify AI deep fakes. And I do know, unfortunately, one to people like my friends, who got kind of scammed on dating apps. So by scammed, I wouldn't mean financial, but also, like, emotional scam where the person really doesn't exist or they are lying about their identity and things like that. And anyway, now with AI, it's very difficult to know who is speaking to you for what intention. You keep on getting so many messages and calls, and you don't really know if it's real or not. Like, you always have to keep your suspicious card quite high because the AI is just building up, and they're not really guidelines for consumers to understand how to use this ethically so that your data, privacy is safe. So I thought, like, how about this? That, you know, there is a bot who is looking for love. And because human dating apps are full of bots anyway, they decide to go into a dating app to find another bot. But a bot, which is, like, a good bot, like, that will be a good partner to our cute little bot, and kind of, you know, through choices, help the user understand, like, how sneakily people would maybe try to get your data. Or there was another section where, when I created a Persona. They're trying to sell you a fitness product.

Divya: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anurati Srivastva: So whatever you speak to them, they'll be like, okay, buy this now. Or have you tried it?

Divya: Like, yeah, it sneakily starts very, like, you know, very softly, and then it just becomes more and more and more and more pressuring. But have you thought about this?

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah. Right? Yeah. And then there was, there was r1 person. So r1 person I actually met on a dating app. I asked them that, can I please use your profile? and that was a human person. And then there was the sweet pot, which was kind, of clingy, but yeah, I think it was a good match for our cute little bot. and the initial idea was to of course, make it like a non, linear experience and maybe even integrate AI into this to make it, seem more real life. But because it was done in just 48 hours, I thought, let's just make it linear to get the prototype out. And I really want maybe like in the future if someone wants to build on this together, because there's a lot that can be done with it. Like, even the process of making this game taught me a lot about aih because I trained these Personas on chat GPT. So I asked AI, like choose the name. This person is from delhi and should be around this age group. What do you think their, responses to these prompts would be? And AI gave me some answers and then I said, okay, now I gave them more data. And now you talk to me as if you are this person. And, what would your goal be if you are trying to market me something and there were some more options that AI gave me and then it was solidified that this is your bio and this is your goal. So I told them, now you talk to me like I would play the bot and you talk to me as if you were this Persona. So that was an interesting process. Yeah.

All the games you've made alone have been solo

Divya: Do you generally, like, work alone, like all the games you've made quite a few games, like all the games, have you? Are you the sole author of it?

Anurati Srivastva: So all my game, all the games on each I've made alone? Yeah, yeah. Because those are all like I would consider, it's like for a long time, I would say, okay, you know, these are art, new media, art type projects or game projects. And, yeah, most of the commercial stuff, of course I've done it with people, but till now I've not. Like, I would love to actually work with someone on these personal ideas, but, somehow they, they are much smaller in scale. Till now, all the games I've made alone.

Divya: Interesting. So I've worked on a lot of different types of media and like, in many of them I've done solo work. I think games are the only ones where I haven't done any solo work. I'm fortunate. Like, my sister is a, game developer, so we're like hearty, can we do it together? And of course, like you said, when it's one person, you have to keep scale limited to something. But like when there are two people, you can actually double the work. You can actually do a lot more.

Game design is a lot more complex than product design, you say

Like what's your and view on building games alone, because, like, one of the things that I find very challenging is that, like, game design is very complex compared to, like, I mean, like no shade to product design. But game design feels a lot more complex than product design. Just on a baseline level. Like, how do you feel about like, you know, just working on it on your own, especially, like, when you have, let's just 48 hours to get something out?

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah. I think doing game design alone is, sometimes it's say, for example, for the game jam thing, it was more about, you know, me wanting to really get out, you know, produce a game because I haven't created something for a while. And maybe this topic interests me, but I think the scope, as you said, it becomes pretty limited. But what I try to view it as is a writing exercise because, like, at the core, game design is like good writing and good storytelling. So even, even with a suitable bot game, I was like. Because it was, just like narrative writing at the core of it. I feel the visuals, like, there are so many tools available now, like this canvas, AI, all of these things. If you want to get an Okish prototype out, you would be able to create some visuals. Of course, it wouldn't be like the high fidelity version. but then I just try to focus on a good story. Like what. What would be a good story to experience? But I do agree, if you want to make it a more immersive experience with, like, interesting characters and maybe more non linear storytelling, you do need at least three to four people on board. Yeah. But, I think that's why I focus a lot on narrative games. It's like, okay, it's a writing exercise for me. Like, and then in my head, I just, like, try not to think that, okay, I'm just doing this alone. I'm just like, okay, this is me trying a new tool. So, like, for example, there was a time under lockdown, I was just trying out bitsy. So I was just like, okay, I just want to create something on Bitsy and there's no other agenda.

Divya: what is Bitsy?

Anurati Srivastva: So Bitsy is a very simple eight bit tool. It's on itch and you can create simple narrative based games.

Divya: Interesting.

Anurati Srivastva: And it looks really cool.

Divya: That's where the Dilwali Dulhanya Lejangi game is from.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, yeah.

Divya: Interesting.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How do you feel about AI overall? Because you're an artiste

Divya: So one of the things that I have, like, learned in the last year in terms of, like, my own process is that, like, AI acts as a, collaborator. Like, the thing that you were also saying that when you were making a suitable bot AI, ah, was like your co narrative designer in some ways, right. But like, how do you feel about AI overall? Because you're an artiste and like, you know, you're like, hardy can use it as a tool, but like, what are your thoughts overall? Because for a lot of people, it's like, it's taking away jobs. It's definitely gonna like, you know, change the landscape of how people are creating. Like, there was some tool that yesterday or the day before that came out that, like, they've shown one image and then somebody has made an entire game out of that image. Like, the AI tool has made a game, interactive game out of that image. And like, how do you feel about that? Because, like, the K generating an image, generating, like, you know, some text is different, but like, when AI starts generating entire, like, interactive experiences, like, how do you feel? Thoughts?

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, I would love to see how that AI tool has made this interactive experience. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's a big, big question, right? And I think this is a question that, like, probably the biggest people in tech are, grappling with and hopefully, hopefully creating some ethical policies, like, around it, because it's so new that probably they don't even know what is ethical and what is not ethical, like we are discussing. Most people can't even decide what would be a good policy to have. I think even with things like data, data privacy, where, you know, we were just accepting and we still are accepting cookies left, right, center. GDPR came in so much later and even now things aren't tracked.

Divya: Yeah, we're being tracked for everything.

Anurati Srivastva: And there's surveillance everywhere. Yeah, we're being tracked for everything. And it is kind of scary in many aspects. So, for example, like you said, right, like, if there is an image I created, and although I do not provide the ownership of that image to anyone, and maybe the AI can kind of pick it up and say that, okay, maybe create an image in the style of XYZ artists, and then XYZ artist does not get compensated, for their work. So I think for those cases, I really feel there should be some policy that comes in where even if AI is using your data, you are in some way compensated for your work. So. Or, like, if there is a repository that aih recomposites or mixes from. Yeah, my contribution to that repository should be, like, consensual. And I say that, okay, it's free or I get paid for it, which is not true, but I really hope that someone or like people are working on this. but it seems like they're working on it.

Divya: But I don't know.

Anurati Srivastva: But, but like about jobs and all, I think with anything, you know, I feel that it's just the nature of tech. Like things will become easier and easier and people will find ways to make themselves useful to the economy. or hopefully there will be universal basic income and people don't have to labor so much all the time.

Divya: Very true.

Anurati Srivastva: Because these two tools will come in and in some ways they are, they are helpful. Right. Like we discussed in our, in our view, we don't want like a complete removal of these tools. I think just for the very basic tasks. I don't think you can completely erase like human intervention for AI, maybe for recruitment processes, but there you would still need human intervention for biases or like, even if it's used for design. Or maybe you need at least one. Instead of three designers, maybe you need only one. But then that designer should be good enough with all the AI, tools available and it's quick enough. Yeah.

Divya: I also feel like at least in my experience, it's starting to turn that, like now maybe like at the entry level there aren't as many requirements, but like the requirement would then start concentrating towards a more directorial position or like a slightly more experienced person who can actually articulate what is the vision and what is wrong. Because like, when you're talking to AI also always the argument goes into, oh, but AI should not be making art. Like, it should be helping people do it. Like, you know, automate easier things. But very honestly, like, social media posts, are they really art when you are making it for a brand? And like, you know, our brand, social media posts that go up like twice a day, are they art? Like, they are just automation. They are actually being done by probably some unpaid intern somewhere who's being paid in exposure.

Anurati Srivastva: So true. Yeah. And even then, like, a lot of times, a lot of these accounts are just doing it for the algorithm to stay relevant. It's not even as if there is some real contribution, right?

Divya: It's like garbage feeding garbage to get more garbage.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah. And it's like if I make one search engine, like, okay, I'm feeling anxious or I'm feeling sad, my whole Instagram will be flooded on like 1000 things I can do to, you know, help out my anxiety, go to a therapist, buy crystals. I'm just like, leave me alone, please. Like maybe, you know, because sometimes you don't want the algorithm to work for you. You want to be surprised. And that that element of surprise is now missing. Right?

Divya: Yeah. It's like sometimes you're like, why are, ah, you just sitting beside me? M always, listening to everything that I am saying and so stop being so attuned. I agree. Like, I want to be surprised sometimes. It's very eerie how, like, so I had booked a pottery session some, like, you know, some weeks ago. it was a very fun session. I had a good time since then because I made the mistake of going to one live thing. It's like, here is a event that is happening near YouTube when I go there. Yeah, that's my m whole personality. According to Instagram. It's like, do you want to go to Kochi? We are doing a meditation retreat. Do you want to come to Goa? We are doing sound bath for seven days. I don't. Sorry that I went to pottery for one day.

Anurati Srivastva: Wow.

How digital devices change your mental health and your mental state

So I met a friend recently and she is from Poland. And, her whole focus is on changing your relationship with phones, like, in the future, how do you kind of lead a life which is. Which is kind of free and sustainable? And she's also lot into understanding digital footprints, like how your email usage or your social media usage, how it releases energy and how, like, just digital devices change your mental health and your mental state. So for eight years she's been using the same phone. It's been four years that she's been off all social media accounts and she uses her phone in black and white. And she was telling me how it, like, she lost a lot of friends along the way, but she started nurturing other relationships. She's like, I sometimes talk to plants and animals and she was like, it's not easy at all, but it really has changed her brain chemistry. Yeah, mental health. And she was like, it's been such a short period of time, right? Like, I can remember, like, I got my first smartphone maybe in second year of college or first year of college, but, like, I knew a time where I wasn't continuously hooked. So there is a way to maybe find a balance, but it's very difficult to do because you are, like, we are rewarded to be online, but we're not rewarded to be offline, you know, not in terms of just the gamification, rewarding. Right. Of course, rewards in terms of, like, meeting a friend and it gives you joy or like, being out in nature and gives you peace. But, yeah, those. Some of our brain isn't able to register those things.

Divya: I feel like, we have slowly, almost culturally, like, you know, trained ourselves to be unable to bear boredom I was, talking to somebody, and, she was like, the moment I realized that Instagram is a problem is when I was brushing my teeth and I was watching reels, and it's like, you know, you are max brushing your teeth for two minutes, and I. Can you just do one thing for those two minutes? Probably not. Like, you know, I'd be sitting in front of my computer. I have, like, my laptop screen, my extra screen, my phone screen, my iPad screen, and there are, you know, four different, four things which are sort of, like, giving so much visual information to me. And I'm sure, like, that is true for almost everybody. I agree with you. Like, I don't think I started using smartphones until, like, I graduated from college. And now I have no idea what I used to do in that, life. what was it like to not have your phone around you 24/7 yeah.

Anurati Srivastva: I feel that we were lucky enough, I would say. I mean, I'm sure the new generation will find their own ways of creating, but we were lucky enough to utilize creativity from the lens of, like, blank slate. And I remember when the Internet first came, it was so exciting because it was mostly about creation. Like, I used to love the Internet back then. Like, MySpace, everyone's play website is completely different. Their own songs are playing. There are some sparkles and gifs, and, like, it's so random. everyone's page tells their own personality. and was a lot about making.

Divya: And less about showcasing consumption. I feel like Instagram and meta overall really, like, pushed the entire Internet in the direction of, like, oh, you have to present yourself a certain kind of way on the Internet, right? Like, you're like, ah. my Instagram photo should be pretty. My breakfast is amazing. And it's like, no, man, sometimes your breakfast looks like a slop and you still eat it because it's tasty. It doesn't have to be like, an instagrammable plate.

Anurati Srivastva: Right? Yeah. And also, everything is also looks the same because, like, in, in terms of my space, it was like everyone's page was different or, you could really tell, okay, this person likes this kind of music. And I think slowly and steadily because everyone's profiles started to, like, look the same and everyone's posting the same kind of photos, and then this, like, ascribing to one kind of living only and, like, that being the perfect way to live, I think it's quite pressurizing, right? Like, there are times I kind of fall into it, like, oh, everyone has more friends, or everyone's traveling more or doing more work stuff, but it's. It's not true. And it's like, I don't know, after maybe many, many years, when we grow much older, we'll probably realize, like, there'll be some research on how it has changed us. I don't know.

Divya: Yeah. I feel like it would be one of those moments where, like, you know, people, after 30 years, they realize, oh, lead in petrol was really bad for our mental development. Oh, uncontrolled, access to permanent dopamine sources is really bad for our neurochemistry. Probably, yes.

Anurati Srivastva: Why didn't I think of that before? Yeah, but how do you make sense of it? Like, I struggle with it a lot. Like, when you're making things for the digital platform and you know that, like, what it does to you and, like, there should be limited access to it because I think I struggled with it when there are so many opposites of games. Right. Like, especially in education or, like, what are you going to give the kids? And, like, parents and teachers are very concerned that, okay, games are bad. While I don't agree with the entire philosophy, it's obviously hard to make a point with people who are totally against it.

Divya: I have, like, certain shock and awe tactics for that. so I remember, like, having this conversation with, like, somebody at a party, and she was, like, so opposed to games. she was like an older, slightly older lady, maybe, like, you know, 45, 50, something like that. She has two kids, and she was like, I really hate it when my sons play games because I don't know what they're doing. And, like, you know, I really don't buy. She basically said something like, I know you are the kind of person who's making these addictive things. And then I was like, huh? But there are many kinds of games. And then she was like, so much. I mean, she also had quite a break to drink, but, like, you know, she was so much on attack. but then I just was like, see? But there are, you know, different kinds of games. You can say that movies are bad, but then there are so many different kinds of movies, right? Like, Discovery channel is also making movies only. And then she's just like, oh, that's interesting. I was like, so I don't know if you've played this game, but, like, there is this game called that dragon cancer.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, I played.

Divya: You played? So I haven't. I don't have the courage to play the game, but I just described, like, you know, the synopsis of the game to people that, like, it's made by a father who lost their child to, like, cancer. And, it's about a parent taking care of, like, a newborn who they know is not gonna survive for too long. Then she's just, like, stunned.

Anurati Srivastva: I'm,

Divya: Like, that is also a game. Like, there are games that are made which are like that as well. And then she's like, oh, I never knew. I was like, yeah, sure. You know, like, most of the things that you hear about are like, you know, games that are about shooting and games that are about that. And then maybe, like, I talk a little bit more deeply about. So there are studies on, like, you know, how kids who have played games, their failure resistance is a lot higher resilience. Right. and I just then start talking about things like, you know, what teaches you that it's okay to fail and you should get up and try again. Like, your classes and courses and exams don't teach you that.

Rabbit says making games for children is fraught with ethical dilemmas

Your exam actually labels you as a failure. If you got a bad grade, you are a failure, right? Like, oh, you are a second ranker always. Or, like, you will never be in the top three. Like, that is what our examination system teaches us. But, like, games actually teach. You go again and again and again and things. And then I think, like, it's just, I mean, it's slightly easier when you have gone to a grade college and you just tell people that, like, I play games and then I still did this and now I'm doing that. Like, somehow it's almost like proof by action that, like, yeah, I did all of those things. I also personally feel like when I've been making things, I have gotten into a lot of arguments with people around the ethical dilemma part of it. And, like, I'm very much myself on the side of, oh, you should take ownership of the thing that you are making. You should feel the ethical and moral responsibility. Like, for example, what you are saying, right? Like, you're making games for children. You could very easily make them addicted, right? Nobody. Like, it's on your shoulders to make sure that they're not addicted. As the maker of the game. And I feel like when I have been in those teams where I'm making things, I'm always like, no, but we need to make sure that it's not addictive. It doesn't always go well. I've had, like, teams where, ah, the founders were just like, but why wouldn't we want people to be addicted to our product? And then at that point you're like, okay, now do I stay with these people? Or do I, like, you know, move on? Do I want to change the system from the inside? Or do I want to like, you know, go out and, and work with something and amplify something that is more ethical? That's how tricky thing. But, like, that's how I would say I try to abandon.

Anurati Srivastva: No, it's completely right. And I think, of course, parents are justified with their arguments about higher screen time for kids. But, the truth is also, you know, that if they are to be on the Internet anyway, if they are to be watching or seeing their phone anyway, why not make it for something, fun? And because I have always been working in social emotional learning or games for social impact, that is still an easier argument. Because I, you know, if you go in the metro or anywhere you go, you see a lot of, parents handing over, you know, just their phones to their child and God knows what kind of reels that, like, four year old, five year old is just watching. It's like horrifying. Like, oh my God, I want to intervene what this child is watching, but, you know, they're already on their phones. If there can be something that can be used for good. And like you said, there are some mechanics that you can intentionally put to have, like, stopping points or, to say that, okay, this is enough for a day, maybe come again later or come tomorrow. So even if it's something that, you know, it's behavioral, maybe a game, on mindfulness, it's like it has a beginning and an end and, you know, they maybe come on another day and maybe slower mechanics or. The focus is not on competing with someone all the time.

Divya: There is a thread that, like, as you were speaking, I just got reminded of many years ago, I had seen this talk on using tendon befriend mechanics. Okay, so are you aware of tendon befriend mechanics? You are, right? Yeah.

Anurati Srivastva: yeah.

Divya: So, like, I had seen a talk by pre code. She used to be at that point, she used to be a, engineer at Ubisoft. And then I became Twitter friends with her. And then I became real friends with her because I was like, you are so cool. But, like, she was just talking about at that point how like, they are trying to create digital experiences on the tendon befriend mechanic rather than on an adrenaline response. And like, you know, how do you generate that kindness and, like, you know, generate that friendliness rather than. Because for many people, warmth is what they are seeking. They're really not seeking. Like, you know, like you said, competition is not the point. Actually. Connection is the point. That was also very interesting because, like, once I saw that talk, like, you know, I started going down that rabbit hole and just like exploring more of those kind of mechanics. And that really changed how my design work. Like, you know, sort of like, that informed a lot of how I did my design thinking afterwards.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, yeah. In fact, very similar to this. So just, two years ago. So I also keep on doing some, like, research work on like, how games can be used on learning and things like that. And I collaborated with this friend of mine from UCSC who's, doing a PhD on games, and games for, learning specifically. And it was more of a review paper where we were trying to find out a common thread for mechanics and storytelling for games that can be used to inculcate compassion, leadership. So, like, which was quite opposed to, like, you know, because when then when you say leader, you want to, you kind of imagine in the context of games at least like, oh, you know, you'll be imagining someone just leading people and like, there's a competition and maybe there's some ad nil and rush and things like that. But we wanted to see if, like compassionate leadership could be, you know, so that we took two strands. Like, there is is one self compassion, compassion for others, and then there is, there are leadership qualities. And then we came up with a, with set of mechanics with which, where, you know, tenant befriend was one of them and there were some idle mechanics. So, yeah, we did come up with a few common threads and we did go through different kinds of games for this. So there was also overcooked. It's a co op game and, but like, and also very different games. There's also kind of world. So very, very simple, ideal mechanic game where you have to maybe plant, plant a tree every day, and every day it blossoms and it gives you a message and maybe you track your emotions and things like that, you know, just to identify different kinds of mechanics that exist in these games. But also, I think a lot of what I learned was from my time with, with UNESCO, MGIP, where our whole focus was on just finding commercial games that could be used for social emotional learning.

Divya: Yeah, interesting. That makes me think of.

So, uh, have you heard of the game death stranding

So, have you heard of the game death stranding?

Anurati Srivastva: No, I haven't.

Divya: It's a post apocalyptic game, like kind of dark world. and there is almost like this acid rain that ages everything that it touches. So like, you know, you build anything, it will. Like if you are in the rain, you will start aging. And what your character is doing is, like, you know, you are transporting boxes like you're a glorified career service. And, like, the game is beautifully made, like, proper triple A game. but one of my friends, he played that game quite a bit, and his favorite part was, while you can't co op in the game, right, like, you can't play with other people live, but if somebody else has made a road, you can use that, right? So there is, like, this community sense of building resources in the world that, like, you know, you're just, like, making things easier and easier for, like, other people. So you might use the road once or twice, but there might be hundred other people who have used that road, right? And, like, as you were speaking about sort of like, these, more collaborative approaches to, like, you know, just, like, mechanics that can encourage more collaborative things, like, these kind of things where it's almost like, it's like real world, right? I don't know who has made the road that I'm using, but I am using it every day. I think death stranding tried to capture that, except it's, like, other players who are doing it.

Anurati Srivastva: Wow, that's so beautiful. I'm going to check this game out. Yeah.

Divya: Yeah. It, like, I couldn't get into it because it's a little bit, like, too slow for my taste. But, Yeah, like. But just, like, theoretically, it sounds really interesting.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah. Even. Bury me, my love. Have you played that game? That's also.

Divya: I've heard of it, but, like, tell me about it.

Anurati Srivastva: So it's a, It's a game which is set on the refugee crisis, migration, issue. And you play as the husband of your wife named Noor, who is trying to flee Syria. And that game has about, like, 28 different endings. And, you know, it's also very, like. It actually feels like they have a nice bond. She's sending funny selfies, and sometimes, oh, should I go to the bar or should I just eat? Go to the restaurant and, like, simple decisions like that. But then she's also seeking his help to make some more important decisions. Or, like, whether I should bribe this person and get on this ship and flee, or should I just go back and basically larger decisions like these, And it's your job to help her make those decisions. And it's very interesting because there are times when she doesn't reply. So in, like, real life, your loved ones don't reply, and you're, like, anxiously waiting. So if you would actually. There's no way you can play the game like, okay, I'll just finish it off in 2 hours. Because I think if I would say that you can actually finish it in 1 hour if it were to be, like, back to back. But because there are these pauses where, like, 3 hours pass by and you don't receive a text back, so you're, like, forced to just maybe keep your game down and just be, like, wait in that anxiety or, like, what happened to her. That mechanic was really interesting. And also the game conception was actually by a journalist who was covering Syria. And, like, you know, I think reportage itself is so daunting. Like, how do you explain all these lived experiences? So he spoke with a lot of people who went through, these themselves and kind of built this experience. Yeah. So it's a very.

Divya: That sounds amazing. Like, I have chills.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, it's a really interesting game.

I found Gone Home very interesting. So this is like, this girl is in third generation

Yeah. Even dot's home is good. That's a free game. And, basically it's about how black people were denied to own property in the state and how hard it was for them to keep their homes. And people were telling them to move out of, certain areas, which was just meant, like, because they wanted to have, like, white colonies and things like that. So this is like, this girl is in, like, she's the third generation of the family. And, there's a way for you to keep switching back to the past and then coming back to the present. Although she's like a, teenage, like, I don't care. I just want to live a life kind of a person. But she's forced to kind of see what happened to her parents and what happened to her grandparents and kind of, make sense of what is happening now. So I found that pretty interesting. And also just to see, because, they don't utilize too many landscapes is the home. And there are streets outside and maybe, like, the school area. But to put that in, like, three eras, like, the same scenes paint, that's really. I found that very interesting.

Divya: Yeah. Like, some of these narrative, experiences are so. I don't know. Like, I think I felt similarly when I played gone home. because that also is, like, you know, you just are in this space and it's unfamiliar, but also, like, you know, there isn't much gameplay. You're walking around and reading things. Right. But it's just very interesting how the game is able to, like, just make you feel so much. Even these games you're describing, I'm definitely gonna check them out because, like, it just feels like you would end up feeling so much more because you're immersed in this thing.

Anurati Srivastva: and also, I think the music and the visuals, everything just puts you in that experience.

Divya: So do you want to make these kind of games?

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah, for sure. Like, I would love to maybe make something, you know, maybe exploring Delhi's history or, like, you know, I keep on thinking about, like, oh, how this place looked like ten years ago or 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and there have been so many drastic changes. It's very powerful to put things in this perspective. So I really do want to explore something around culture and, yeah. Narrative experiences told through digital games.

Divya: That would be fun. I would love to play it.

Anurati Srivastva: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. It's really powerful. And I think sometimes, and I think games become more powerful because you feel like you have that agency. So, like, the empathic response becomes higher because you feel that you made the choice. So, like, if Noor goes missing, you really feel that. Oh, God. Like, you gave a response, which. So now she's no more or she's gone missing and things like that. So it's, like, very, very impactful.

Divya: theme music is by Akshay Ramuhali of BTrpt. Music editing is by beatnik.

Anurati Srivastva: My professional work is available at www.Anuratishrivasthava.com, which is anuratrsrivastva.com. and you could also just message me on Instagram. I'm at at the rate Anurati Srivastva.