Kahran & Divya on the Learnings from Meghana Srinivas and Samhita Arni

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Kahran. And this is.

Divya: Thinking.

Kahran: I'm thinking.

Divya: Welcome to this episode of thinking on thinking. Today, Kahran and I talk about our conversations with Sam and Meghan, especially around success rituals. And we brought back our favorite topic, identity. We hope you enjoy. You know, one interesting thing I realized, the three interviews I've done for this season, I have talked to all the friends that I've made in 2023. Like, Aditi, I met in February. Same with, computational mama, who I also met in February. and then Meghna, I methadore some point in July or August, I wanna say.

Kahran: Oh, that's so funny. But you also met other people during 2023 also?

Divya: No, I made some really cool other friends as well.

Kahran: but just these ones were all from 2023. Yeah. Yeah. That's cute.

Divya: Yeah, I was like, did I just sneakily do the podcast so that I could talk to them? And then I was thinking, like, all of the people that you actually talk to are, your friends for quite some time, right?

Kahran: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I would say all since. I was gonna say all since I moved to India. Cause even Fran and I met really? actually, once Gaurav started his Fulbright. So that was in 2019. and then Mansi and I met, I think, in 2018, and Sam and, I think, met in 2019 as well. So, yeah, I guess, like, all these people from, like, just before the pandemic, it seems like a lifetime ago now, but, yeah.

Your conversation with Sam touched on identity and success, among other topics

Divya: You know, what was my favorite thing about your conversation with Sam? The whole conversation, I was just like, oh, my God, she's so brilliant. Wow. She answered it so smartly. Oh, my God, I love what she said here. And, like, just the questions that you were asking her as well, like, the follow ups and everything that you asked her, also made me think that, oh, this was. This was a good question to ask. Like, even if you guys went tangents here and there, I think when you do something for a long time, you develop an intuitive sense of it. And that's what it felt like, that you had developed an intuitive sense of, oh, what should I ask this person? How should I talk to them?

Kahran: Well, with Sam, it's also, she's just so interesting. Right? There's so many interesting stories. everything leads to something when she's telling a story, right. There's always these kind of hooks that you can ask more to. I think it is the mark of a talented storyteller. Right. She gives you so many different things to engage with, in the way that she tells the story, depending on, no matter who, what kind of listener you are.

Divya: It's also interesting, like, she has a lot of context set up for metanarrative as well. So she's telling you a story, but then she also leaves spaces to ask about features of the story, if I were to say, right, like, that's why I feel like your conversation went into the ideas of success and everything else, right? Because, like, while she's telling you stories about success, she's also dropping hints on how she thinks and feels, feels about success. So not just like, what is successful in the content, but also like, her emotions about the concept of success itself. And then, like, a lot of conversation just managed to be about that. So, like, it's almost like that meta content kind of a thing that you can do, which is the most fun conversation to have, if you like thinking about thinking.

Kahran: It's interesting because I felt like I definitely had an agenda, right. I was trying to push her into some discussion about identity because I really wanted to just see where she kind of had, thoughts. especially because I felt like I'd managed to get kind of interesting thoughts from Muncie and from Fran. but it was interesting to kind of feel like her kind of questions of identity were not so much there, right, exactly. As you're saying, her kind of questions were around success and what does it mean to be successful? And I think when you've experienced success kind of so early in life, how do you kind of go from there? And then how do you kind of figure out, like, what drives you? And then what kind of person, like, will you always be this person who like, wrote a book when they were eleven? Or like, how do you find identities beyond that? And maybe one of the ways is just that stops being as much of a concern, right? As she kind of talks about, it's like there's different parts of you and you feed different parts of you with different ways, and it's not so much like an overarching identity. As I kind of understood her, she was kind of almost indicating that in her belief. It's like, that's almost a naive exercise, right? That you will always be a multifaceted person and kind of figuring out how do you feel successful or feel like you're being the person you want to be is more the challenge and less kind of hiding behind saying, yes, this is my kind of clear identity that tells me what I need to do in every circumstance.

Divya: I, ah, wonder if a large part of it is also, because she grew up so multicultural. Like, this is how I felt about, like, friends who have multicultural identities. Either they fragment in a way that, like, it feels like a shattering of identity or they fragment in a way that it feels like they are multifaceted. Like, I, was having a conversation with a friend some weeks ago, and he was mentioning how when he was younger, his family moved every, like, nine months or so, so even lesser than a school year, right. And, he was like, I grew up without having friends, without really connecting with my peers at all. And, like, there is some sense of that alienation that still persists. But when you were speaking with Sam, it really didn't feel like her place in the society was something that bothered her in that way. Like, she recognized that sometimes she would have these feelings of not belonging, but, like, they are just part of life. And she just very casually moved on from it. Like, yeah, sometimes I think that, oh, I haven't had a kid or whatever, but then, you know, that's also coming from here. And it was just interesting to hear her say that because it was almost like, ah, she really doesn't care about how she is. I don't know, like, how she is perceived. You know what I mean?

Kahran: Yeah. And I think the way she talked about not speaking Kanura, which is her mother tongue, and living in where it is also the language of the land, it's, just interesting, right? She didn't feel kind of lesser or that she wasn't living up to a standard or something. Exactly what you're saying about the kind of social expectations of having been married by her age or having had a child by her age. She doesn't seem to feel like, sure, she acknowledges that there's there and those are pressures on her, but she's not held back by them, if you will. Very interesting. Yeah.

Divya: And you know what that's also making me think about? There was a very brief period of time when I started forgetting Hindi, which is my mother tongue, and I had such a, like, very ego hurt reaction to it from myself. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I had gone to a Hindi poetry thing and I couldn't understand what the poet was talking about. And I was like, wow, no, this is not okay. And I recently went to an Urdu poetry thing and I was like, ah, now I can understand it. Cool. You know, like, I have redeemed myself. But it just felt like Sam m didn't have any of those feelings of, oh, she needs to redeem something.

Kahran: Yeah, it's interesting you say that. My husband, actually, I know, struggles with the notion that he might be not able to read Bengali as clearly, or cleanly as he used to be able to. It's a great source of frustration for him. but, yeah, of course, right. If you don't see the language around, eventually, it kind of gets harder to engage with.

It's useful to think about the reasons why you're not feeling successful

Divya: In that, stream of success. Right? Like, it's useful to think about the reasons why you're not feeling successful. At least like, that's what I feel. Even if it is emotionally not always easy to do, it's always useful. At least I found to be like, okay, but I'm not feeling successful. Why? Especially because as a creative person, it's very tempting to be like, ah, I've done nothing. All my work is garbage. I am garbage. Nothing matters. But that's not true, right? Many times it is. Because maybe you have a fixed notion of what a creative person looks like, or maybe you have a fixed notion of what your creative work should be like. Maybe you have a fixed notion of, this is what success should look like. Right? Like, I, for example, know people who go choose a completely separate path and still keep evaluating themselves on the old path. And it's like, you know, you cannot reach Mumbai fast if you're on the train to Delhi.

Kahran: I think especially when you're on some of those harder paths, or at least the paths with longer paths, it becomes harder to ignore the benchmarks that it seems like everyone else is looking at. and so then sometimes it leads you to these confused states where you're like, wait, am I trying to do this? But we were talking about that in a, ah, it's almost like starting a company is the new investment banking. It's like if you're smart, you go and work for a startup or you go do a startup. Whereas once it was like, oh, go join the finance world, or, become a consultant. Yeah.

Divya: I also feel like it's very interesting because, like, the more abstract these careers become, right? It's a little bit like how a lot of young kids are like, oh, I'm going to be an influencer. But there is no straight up path to be an influencer. Even if consulting is a low supply job, there is a straight up path to be a consultant. You go to an MBA college, you be like, you know, one of the top people in your class, or you do so many extracurricular cads that, like, you know, your portfolio is like, your resume is very well rounded, then, like, you can get hired at a consulting company. Like, there are more steps to that, but there is a, like, you know, system to it, but there isn't a clear system on this is what will be required to run a company. Like, I remember when I was younger, there were so many people that I knew who were like, oh my God, by 30 I should be a millionaire. By 30 I should have this much success. By 30 I should be this much. And it's just there was some point when I like, you know, heard this stat that like, most of the successful Silicon Valley startups are actually like, the founders are 40 plus in age. And that was just like a, really eye opening thing when I compared that stat with like, my friends who in their late twenties were like, I'm a failure if I haven't done this already, and like, how much distortion that causes.

Kahran: I also know that stat, but I wonder a little bit about, because also, right, like, most entrepreneurs will tend to start another company. So it may or may not be those 40 year old entrepreneurs. It's their first company, it generally isn't.

Divya: Yeah, but the point still holds, right? Those people have made some mistakes and they've like, or rather the point is reinforced, those people have actually made mistakes earlier in their career and they have been a failure so that they have been successful later in life. Right? Like, the failure is not an anti indicator of their potential at that point. It's actually an indicator that they have the probability to make a successful company.

Kahran: But what I think is that, I don't know, the advice that I've given to like, some startup founders, and I think what I kind of also think is that if you look for where your gaps are and also where your strengths are, right. So understand, okay, these are the places that might make me well suited, or these are the skills I would bring into a good startup team. and, you know, also these are the places where maybe I don't have those skills and I'm not as excited about building those skills, but those are the places that I know that I need to have them in order to see a company be successful. And of course there's a bunch of questions right in there, right. What are those skills you need for this company be successful? And I think there's a lot of books about, you know, those subjects. But what I feel like is, yeah, if you kind of think about those things, then you can kind of know, okay, where do I need to go in order to be able to be well suited to start my venture? So maybe it's like, oh, I don't have the depth in people capital, or I don't have the depth in financial capital, or I don't have the depth in, I don't know, like marketing or product development, like depending on what is it that you're saying, what are the skills I'm going to bring to this startup? Right? And I think one of the other things that people really, unfortunately maybe like, think is they don't stop that game, right? So they're saying, oh, I need to bring all the skills to this startup, and then that leads to degradation at some point, right. You're not going to have the same quality in all the skills. If you try and chase everything, at some point you're going to have to be able to fall down. So, yeah, it's an interesting point. I was just thinking about it in that context.

Divya: How interesting? Like, it almost sounds like it's a game of balance because you have to challenge yourself and you have to leave enough open so that you can learn and make mistakes, but also you have to bring enough to the table that you don't make very, very costly mistakes.

Kahran: I think. Yeah, I think that that's very true what you just said, but I mean, I think you can almost simplify it a little bit more to being like, it's kind of just being like, what do you want to be good at? Right? Like, you're getting into the startup for some reason, right? Like, and, maybe you want to make a bunch of money, sure. But hopefully you also want to be good at something. So being articulate with yourself and then therefore, with the rest of the team about that can just be really helpful in, figuring out, like, where's the strengths in this organization and then where do we still need to, like, fill?

Magna ah talks about workplace harassment on her podcast

It's interesting, maybe if I use that as a little bit of a leap, but, I met Magna ah in 2019 when she was really early in her journey. And it was interesting because at that point, she didn't talk about things in the same way she did on the podcast just now. She did not really talk about her reasons of why she walked away from biology, just that she had decided to leave, being a biologist or studying to be a biologist, and then decided to start this company. And in neither case did she really highlight her reasons for it, and it just made a lot less of a compelling story. I actually remember, and I was just looking back at my notes, a few days ago, actually. and yeah, I could see my notes over my conversation with her and I wasn't super impressed by the company at the time, I was like, I didn't really understand where it was going to go or what were its strengths. Right. And I think that's what kind of connected for me in my mind a little bit, because I think if you can articulate what your strengths are, that really can help articulate for the company kind of what your strengths are. I, think it was just interesting hearing on the podcast, because now she has so much more of a clear articulation of her strengths. Right. And then also, like, where she wants the company to be. And I think she just sounds like she's a connector. She's like, and I think a connector, both of people and ideas, which is just an interesting kind of place to be. And I think also it feels like she set her targets at, a reasonable level, if you will. When I talked to her before, I remember it being kind of like this thing of how we're going to change the story of, like, workplace harassment, and now it just kind of seems like we're gonna do good work. Like, her story kind of seems to have changed a little bit, and it's really interesting to think about how that evolution happens.

Divya: It's almost like her story became more concrete and it became more abstract both at the same time.

Kahran: Yeah, I think because when you get into the detail, sometimes you do. Yeah. It becomes more concrete, but then also, you're applying these kinds of values, and then these are people's lives, so it can't be very hard. Right. Like, it has to be thinking about all sorts of sides. I thought it was really interesting how she was telling that usually, even when there's a finding in the side of the victim, the victim's tend to leave the company within two years. and then her whole point about how retaliation will happen slowly and over time and in ways that you can't really pinpoint back to the moment that caused it is just. Yeah, it's difficult.

Divya: It was really interesting just to talk to her about it because it really was very clear that she's values driven in the work that she does and in the life that she leads. Like, in some ways, I also found it quite inspiring because. Okay, so I haven't really, unless you say the domain overall as, like, you know, sticking to something. I haven't really stuck to things for too long in my life. But it was just interesting to, like, you know, see how she just, like, you know, grew with the company. It was very visible that, like, you know, in the way she was talking about it. And, in the way she understood herself, like, her work has helped her understand herself better. And like, oh, these are the points of alignment that I have. And like, yeah, okay. These are the challenges that are there if you are a solo founder, and then these are the benefits of the way I'm running the thing. And even other conversations that we have had besides the podcast also. It's just always very clear that this is somebody who is very values driven by, like, a lot of people that I have talked to, like, who do startups. They are, sometimes they are business driven, sometimes they are very strengths driven. They're like, oh, these are the kind of, like, things that I can bring to the table, so I'm gonna do it. It was just interesting to talk to her and her being like, this is the world that I want to live in, so I'm just gonna put effort to do it.

Kahran: I think that's different than everyone else we've talked to on this season because I feel like most of our guests have been driving after some success. Right. It may have different forms, but there's something that they're kind of like going after, and it's not so much about saying we're doing, you know, the right thing, the good thing every day. And that's. That's kind of the routine is a success in itself, almost.

Divya: Yeah. What a unique perspective on life, right?

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Now that I think back about Sam's conversation, it feels like Sam is also leading somewhere there, but she's not at that conclusion yet. And in Sam's case, it's different because it's like, oh, early life, like, you know, superstar success. What do you do then?

Kahran: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, Sam and I got into this interesting side conversation for a bit, which I can't remember if it made it to the final cut, but I. About whether in order to be an artist, you need to have a sense of identities, and being able to believe in this notion of identities is kind of a, ah, constituent part of having artistic, output. And I wonder a little bit about this notion, in relation to that, because I guess maybe it's the thing that you're actually kind of often telling me, right. That building kind of the routines of just kind of steadily producing work is really kind of the hardest part. But also, once you're there, that is kind of the key to being productive and prolific as an artist, which would kind of point to an attitude similar to more what Magna is saying.

Divya: Yeah, actually a friend of mine recently asked me if I feel accomplishment like, as a feeling, if I feel accomplishment. And it was interesting because I was like, logically, I can see things that would be counted as accomplishment, and I can say that they are accomplishments, but I don't know if I feel accomplishment. But at the same time, the joy of Rossas is real. Like, if I'm making things, like, if I'm, you know, like, taking my pencil and putting a mark on the paper, I can actually feel the joy and delight in that. Like, you know, what I'm feeling from what you're saying is that, like, probably Meghna has gotten to the point where that just feels like a day to day process of, like, running her business. I'm sure she would disagree, because yesterday she made a very sad post about how much. How frustrating being an entrepreneur is on Twitter. So I was like, okay, maybe that's not every day.

Kahran: I don't know. I mean, I wonder then if it gets hard on the days that don't go as well. Right? When your measure of success is, like, did today go well? I don't know. It's an interesting place to be.

I also thought it was really interesting that conversation you guys had about rituals

I also thought it was really interesting that conversation you guys had towards the end about, like, I guess it was kind of the middle, but about rituals and the kind of difference between systems and rituals. It was just really interesting how she talked about, basically, I would almost call it a carryover sense of joy, where she would try and build her rituals by using something that she knew she found joy in and then adding that to the thing that she wanted to create joy in. It was just an interesting notion. I never thought about that as a way to make something fun.

Divya: Yeah, actually, I had forgotten. Thanks for bringing that up. how do you think, feel about rituals? Oh, like, in your life?

Kahran: I mean, I don't know how many rituals I really have.

Divya: Okay. But, like, what are your emotional notions about rituals?

Kahran: They feel inaccessible. Like, I'm very intrigued by them. I don't really understand how they exist. I don't know. Or I don't understand how they don't become boring or, like, frustrating or. Yeah, I don't understand how they exist. But that's why it was so interesting to hear that little tidbit where I was like, oh, I mean, there's definitely things I find joy in.

You have a ritual that you do every day. Do you want to call it a habit or a system

Divya: Wait, so do you feel that way about habits also?

Kahran: Yeah, maybe.

Divya: How do you feel about, like, us having, you know, us talking to each other with quite a regular frequency, and then that's also almost like, I don't know. Do you want to call it a ritual, a habit, a system, whatever.

Kahran: It's astounding to me.

Divya: Wait, is that the only consistent action in your day that you're like, yeah, this is gonna happen?

Kahran: Yeah. I mean, especially in the mornings of my days. Cause I don't, like, always brush my teeth before we talk or, like, make the bed. I don't know. Sometimes I don't write my morning pages before we talk. Like, do them at some point during the day, usually. I have not been making the bed lately, but I've been unwell. I don't know. I didn't grow up with an environment with a lot of schedules or rituals. So I think maybe that is part of it. I don't know.

Divya: Were you in a lot of classes or sports or something growing up? Wouldn't that require some sort of schedule?

Kahran: Yeah, but they were only for a quarter or a season and then you would have a different sport. only thing I once I started to swim consistently, I guess that was a thing. I don't know. I never, like, had something that I missed it when I wasn't in my life, really. Like, oh, I do this thing every day and if I haven't done it, I'm like, oh, I feel a gap.

Divya: You know what is interesting? So last week, my artist day didn't go particularly well. I went to this, manicurist and she didn't do a great job. And I was like, oh, my God. It's my second time getting my nails done. And what a bad job she has done. I don't like it. And I realized that I'm feeling a gap that I didn't do it last time. And that was very interesting that it's like, hm. It's not even a regular, like, you can't call it a habit or a system, right. It is actually a ritual that I am doing. And I could feel the internal upset because of not doing it. Especially after the conversation with Meghna. It was extra interesting.

Kahran: That, is really interesting. So you have kind of built it over time, I guess. You've done it for weeks now.

Divya: Yeah, maybe like twelve, 13 weeks.

Kahran: For some reason, in my mind, it's like it needs to be very consistent, like at the same time of the day or something. The same day of the week to be a real ritual or like the same point in the moon cycle. I don't know.

Divya: Okay. This is how I would think about it. You know how, like, sometimes you might look at somebody and you can be like, oh, this person really looks like that. Other person and your friend would be like, no, they don't. They look completely different. Have you had that experience?

Kahran: Yes, absolutely.

Divya: Right. And it's because, like, the anchor points in your mental map of human faces are different from your friends. If we think about that, what is the definition of a ritual in your brain? Because it involves some sort of fixed points, especially temporarily. Like, it needs to be related to time in some way, shape, or form. Right.

Kahran: Well, it's interesting you say that, because as you were talking, I was thinking about it, and I was like, I do go to yoga every Tuesday and Thursday, and then every time I go to yoga, I always go into a steam room. Right? Like, I just. I always go for a steam every time I go to yoga. So one could say is that when I do yoga in the studio, I have a ritual of going for a.

Divya: Steam or a habit. Like, at the very least a habit.

Kahran: But it feels like if I didn't do it, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Divya: Or maybe you're the kind of person who doesn't want to connect your identity with somebody who does have rituals and habits, because, like, I know that I felt that, like, when I started reading the artist's way, and she doesn't call these things habits. She does call them rituals. Right? Like, she, talks about them in that tone that people talk about for rituals. Like, you show up and you do it, but, like, it's a very, you know, kind of, like, spiritual language. She's not saying it in the way that an alpha bro entrepreneur is gonna relate to. It's very, like, ah. yeah, the hippie vibe. Even though the content is the same, like, she's saying it in a very ritual sense. And I had, like, initially this one arm, distance feeling with it, and I was like, okay, it's just a habit. And you just get up and you do it for yourself every morning, but, like, it's just a habit. So maybe you just don't like both of those things. You're like, I will not be time bound. Nobody shall define who controls my time, not even myself.

Kahran: I think it just feels like a really big deal, like, building a habit or building a new ritual or being a person who has rituals just feels like, a big deal.

Divya: Like, too heavy.

Kahran: Yeah. It's just like, I'm not sure if I'm that person. I don't know. It's very interesting.

Divya: I feel like both of us are very identity oriented people. Have you noticed that?

Kahran: That's why I was on that quest, to make sure that every guest was identity oriented. And then realized, to my dismay, that perhaps it was not a humanly unifying trait that all of us share, but instead an accommodation that some of us have created for ourselves for whatever reason.

Divya: Yeah. For whatever God forsaken reason that our ego could come up with.

Kahran: Like, I don't know.

You talk about search for the best version of yourself through partner

It connects in my mind a little bit to how I felt when you and Mygna were talking at the beginning of that episode. about how there's a search for the best version of yourself. And that search can be manifested through the right partner. And it was interesting that framing, because I had always kind of thought about it as you are different versions of yourself with different people, and it's a question of, are you being the best version of yourself? But that framing, to me, feels a little bit different than the way you guys had talked about it. Does that make sense?

Divya: Yeah. Because I think what you are saying is, like, you are aware of all of these different versions, and then you are choosing to present one or the other. Right. Like, the participator self is different depending on the situation. But it's not like you are unaware of who the participator is. But what Meghna and I were talking about was, like, can your partner actually reveal parts of you that were concealed even from yourself and which do compose, like, a better version?

Kahran: Because that is a different question. And that runs into all these other questions of, like, what is better? And, yeah. where were these parts hiding earlier?

Divya: Yeah. I feel like both of these, episodes that we did, there is, like, so much in them that im also struggling to sort of, like, summarize them in a unified way. You know what I mean? Like, there isn't a unified theme even within the episode itself. Like, we could say, oh, this one is about this thing, and this one is about this other thing. But even there, it just feels like it's so much more vibrant the conversation than, like, what a singular word would be able to capture.

Kahran: Well, I will immediately challenge you on that. I don't know. I mean, I think in some ways, I feel like both of them are about finding purpose in your life. Right. And how I think they both kind of evolved through these different versions of that. And I think actually, in both of their cases, there was something that kind of society expected of them or expected them to be, and they kind of found their paths, despite that. Right.

Divya: Yeah, it's interesting. So for whatever, like, you know, 30 episodes, we talked to each other and we just sort of, like, explored certain things. And even though we've just had, like, six interviews, I feel like my thinking has evolved so much, with, like, these other people. Not that, like, talking between the two of us didn't evolve my thinking, but it's just. It's interesting the amount of breadth that, like, a single individual can cover when you are interacting with, like, a wider variety.

Kahran: Yeah. I think we've also gotten a little bit better at almost uncovering breath through depth. Right. Whereas I think in our earlier podcast episodes, we had a tendency to really cover a lot of topics, but not cover them as deeply. And I think now we actually tend to discuss less, like, you know, if you will, discrete topics, but discuss them in ways that are just more, illustrative of larger circumstances. Right. And more applicable for how people would think or where they would apply them, even outside of that particular way that we're discussing it in that moment. So I agree with you, but I think. I would say, I think we've also progressed perhaps a little bit, but perhaps the progression has been because we're now interacting with other people. Right. And there's only so much that you can kind of grow when your feedback person is always the same.

Divya: No, I mean, like, no, your point is also correct. Like, a lot of it might just be practice that, like, we have practice with each other and, like, finding our voice and what topics interest us. So now when we are talking with, external influences, we can actually navigate situations in a particular fashion.

Kahran: I mean, I guess we have a habit of a podcast. It's an interesting notion. What does it make? shouldn't it be easier when it's a habit or something? Like. Or you're supposed to miss it when it's not a habit? What is this?

Divya: I think, if I remember correctly, like, habits don't use dopamine, but habits use the same circuitry that opiates use in your brain. Like, opiates do it at a much more amplified level. But the neural circuitry is similar. So, like, it's the same thing. You're not. You won't feel reward if you're brushing your teeth, like, you know, every day. but if you don't do it, you would feel like, oh, shit, I have not done something between habits and rituals and systems. A lot of it is also language. And what I would say is, like, cognitive constructs are different, so how you feel about them and how you think about them are different. I don't know how much neurologically would be different.

Kahran: I would definitely say that for me, it's difficult to kind of muster the momentum or maybe enthusiasm to change state. Right. Like, maybe if I'm going to a place or whatever it is. Right. But some things are less hard. Like, going to yoga, for sure, is not that hard anymore. Right. Like, I will just kind of go without really having to work myself up to get there.

Divya: Yeah. I mean, it is quite a, commonly known, right. That people who are neurodivergent, their needs for rituals and habits is much higher. Especially, like, for ADHD folks. It's very hard to build systems, but they also benefit a lot from having systems.

Kahran: But it's also. A lot of them are dopamine, processing. Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Divya: Maybe we can get somebody who is super into system and can't think of anybody who is, you know, too much English. But it would be interesting to thank you for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. The theme music is by BTrpT music and the editing is by Beatnik.