Thinking on Manasi K & Computational Mama

Mhm. Hi, I'm Divya. Thinking on thinking

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Karin. And this is.

Divya: Thinking on thinking.

Mansi Khare and Kahran mamade discuss identity

Welcome to this episode of thinking on thinking. Today we talk about our conversations with Mansi Khare and computational mamade, and how we found certain threads about identity through both of those conversations, and how Kahran and I, some parts of those conversations gave us pause and made us think about identity differently. We hope you enjoy. So, for me, there were two key takeaways from the conversation with Mansi. one was, like, her perspective on identity. So I've had a similar conversation with a friend who is, like, into dramatics. And he was talking about how, like, doing dramatics lets him sort of take on different identities. And it has sort of given him this understanding that identity is very malleable. And who you think you are in the story that you're telling yourself that you are really changes how you're moving in the world. Of course, he's talking in the context of stage, but he was also talking in context of general life. And then, the examples that Mansi gave and how she. Of course, she's still, like, you know, she can't change a lot of things about her identity. She is a woman. She is like, you know, a particular age. People will anticipate certain things. But she did change a lot of other things, right? Like, what is her religion? What is her name? What does she do? All of that. And it was just interesting how it helped her look at the world from a different perspective and look at the people who were interacting with her from a different perspective. It also reminded me of that book, ways of seeing. have you heard of it?

Kahran: No, I don't know if I have.

Divya: It's an interesting book. It's very philosophical. It's also very artsy, kind of social. It's interesting. But there he talks about the concept of the male gaze, the female gaze, stuff like that. and it's very often when, in our popular narrative, we don't think about the seer. Like, we don't examine the eyes. We only examine the object that the eyes are looking at. but the way, like, you know, Manzi was talking about identity, she was also able to observe, how are people's perception of her changing as she is somebody different? Like that thing that she said about, you know, going somewhere on e. Then the guy asked her something, and then she was just like, okay, I guess I'll just play along. that part was, like, very interesting for me. And I also really liked her take on patriotism. It's still not something that I fully internalized, because, like, I don't think that I had thought of patriotism as something nice, for the lack of a better term, but, like, just her entire conception around it as, like, anybody who is doing good creating value is patriotic much more than somebody who is just, whatever, waving a flag. that was just very interesting. Or rather, that is how I took her perspective as. So those are, like, the two key things that sort of stood out to me and, like, sort of stuck with me when I was hearing that.

I think Mansi handles attention in a certain way

Kahran: Yeah, it's interesting what you were saying just now about that book, the ways of seeing a. And that notion of kind of objectifying and, like, the male gaze and the female gaze is just kind of interesting to me because I think Mansi kind of touched on it. Right. And how she, kind of handles it. Right. And I think that she is, like, a striking lady. Right. So, like, she otherwise kind of does get attention, and I think she handles that attention in a certain way. When you were talking to computational mama or when I was listening to it, I think it's just interesting how the roles and what we kind of perceive roles as being, and we kind of perceive as being available kind of just shapes how we think about the paths that we go on. So, like, maybe Mansi could have taken a similar sort of path as computational mama and creating sort of like one sort of alter ego. Right? Or you and I were talking before the podcast started about this podcast you and I both listened to called the knowledge project. And there, the host has kind of created a separate entity from himself that is the knowledge project and that runs the knowledge project. I just think it's interesting how, because of how we kind of perceive what's available to us, we choose different. These sorts of, like, different ways of solving, kind of the situations that are in front of us. From my understanding of the podcast that you guys had, it kind of felt like computational mama felt like, you know, that she is not creative. Right. And that she is not. Like, even though she does design things, like, there's certain aspects of what she does that she brings this kind of, like, creative or design thinking to. But a lot of it is rooted in her feeling of herself as a creator and a developer, and someone who makes stuff. But then it was just kind of interesting how, in some ways, that almost had been a reaction in itself. Right. But the way she reacted to the circumstances was that she made a new version of herself. Right. And I feel like what Mansi almost does is she makes a new version of herself each time.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Maybe I'm also misperceiving that. Maybe what's really happening is there is like a more shape shifting part of Mansi, right. And that is getting developed further and further, and it just materializes in all these different forms every time.

Barry: Identity can expand you but it can also limit you

Divya: So one of my friends has written this article, identity is dead, and that one is also really intriguing. And, he talks about how similar to how tech debt just accrues. And eventually, in your, like, you know, when you're building a large system, eventually, whatever tech issues, whatever were things that you didn't consider, wherever the edges are, something is going to come and break your system, and it would be at that point.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Like, his contention in this article is that identity also can do that to you because, like, it will expand you, but it will also limit you. Like, if there are two sides to an argument, like, let's say, democrats and liberals, even if people on both sides are reasonable, you know, sensible people, once they attach themselves to a certain identity, suddenly, like, people whose interests are, might or might not be aligned with them, can come and leverage that identity while they have to bear the cost. So, like, for example, if two people in a family, like, you know, are, liberals and democrats, right. While the divide and the emotional burden would be handled by the two people in that family, the benefit of that would be taken by the political parties. Right.

Kahran: Oh, that's so interesting. It's something I kind of thought about in a really different way a, long time ago. But when we were kind of thinking about how do we explain what joyous does? One of the ways I was thinking about it, Washington, that we help expand what feels available to the consumer in this brand. And in some ways, actually, I think what you're talking about is once you start having an identity associated with something, then it starts to expand. Let's say I form my identity because I really like physics. And so I think of myself as a physicist, but then as I start to understand what are physicists doing in this world, then I'll realize, I don't know, like maybe there's all these, like, conferences or something, or like magazine or whatever, like organizations I could be part of because I have this identity as a physicist. That wasn't part of why I got that identity. I didn't know idea about them.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: But now that I have that identity, these things are available to me that weren't otherwise available.

Divya: Yeah. It's also a little bit like how clusters of hobbies and activities would get activated. So, like, you know, you get into one thing and then suddenly you are the, quote, unquote, also into other things because people like you are supposed to be into those things.

Kahran: Yes.

Divya: Right? Like, oh, if you are into Sci-Fi then have you read this or have you watched this? And how could you not? Or, like, you know, if you are a book, reader, then you should not be liking the tv shows or something like that. And, like, I'm not saying that there is a particular, like, you know, particular group in each case which would be, sort of benefiting or at least like, I can't think of. But I just like that articulation and I just liked that idea of, like, malleability of identity because I also think that, like, I am somebody who has, like, certain parts of my identity very rigidly fixed. It's both an anchor and something that holds you back, and you don't know when it's holding you back and when it is giving you stability. Right. Because, like, now Mansi has this part of herself, for example, where she will go and make up these identities. And that in itself is who Mansi is.

Kahran: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was trying to hint at. Yeah, you're exactly right. It's interesting at first while you were talking, and I'll just share the story, but I was reminded of, something that keeps happening to me now is because I go to some amount of theater, right? And I live in New York, and there's really, like, there is a New York gay that really understands theater, right. But I am not that one. Like, you know, I know it's very exciting that I believe Barry Manilow just wrote the music for a new, play. But I don't really know why people are like, this is such a thing.

Divya: I don't even know who that is.

Kahran: Yeah, exactly. It's an identity that I feel unsure of, because it comes with, I feel, like, a lot of cost in my head, at least, of, like, oh, I don't.

Divya: Wait, so the part is the New York theater connoisseur gay is the identity that feels expensive to you?

Kahran: Yeah. It feels like people have a set of expectations from me that I don't know how to meet or it feels like a lot of energy to meet. because, like. Right. And people already kind of do. Right. They were, like, asking me, like, oh, have you seen any good plays recently and whatnot? And I just feel, this is also partially me, right. But I find it, like, oh, oh, no. I don't know. What should I recommend? You oh. What kind of person are you? Like, who are you going with? that's just also how I think about giving recommendations and advice to people.

As you do more of this, your expectations start to change

Divya: Okay, so this really does remind me of, like, you know, that this is so interesting. You were not stressed out about this when you were in Bangalore or when you were in Seattle. You probably loved the theater as much when you were in both of these places. I don't think that, like, you know, in the year that you've been living in New York, your love for theater has, like, exponentially increased or anything like that. That, right. but, like, the way we set expectations is so much dependent on our current actions. And, like, the more actions we're taking, the more, like, you know, I've said this to you multiple times. The only time I'm worried about I'm not running fast enough is not when I'm on my couch, but when I am running. While ideally you should not be worried about when you're already running, you don't need to be worried about how fast you're running. It's almost that way.

Kahran: Right?

Divya: Like, I think these days you go for two or three plays, like, in a week. Two plays a week is, like, quite common. No.

Kahran: Good lord, no. I'm not doing that many. I mean, well, also remember, I feel like we're traveling, like, every week sometime.

Divya: Yeah. Okay, so every week that you are in New York, you are going for two plays a week. I am sure you are. Are you? Or are you nothing?

Kahran: I think it averages out to maybe two or three a month. Right. And I don't think we're traveling every week. Every two weeks, but, yeah, no, I mean, there was a time, certainly, I, think, when the weather was a little better and you could also see some outdoor shows. It was fun.

Divya: it's very interesting that, like, now you're probably seeing a lot more theater and you are able to indulge in the thing that gives you happiness. Neil Gaiman has the statement that when you figure out how to do the thing that you love and you get successful at it, the world will conspire. Make sure that you don't get to do enough of it. And, like, he gives the example of, like, when he became really quite successful. he would get these, like, you know, international contracts, which are like 80 page contracts, and he has to sign on each page, and he would get many, many contracts for each language, for each edition, for everything. And he was like, there was a period of time when I was actually wasting my time signing the contracts and I couldn't write, and. Which is so ridiculous, right? Like, if you think about it, that is really ridiculous. but I think, like, somehow your description made me think of that as well. But it's like, you know, you are watching more plays. You could just be enjoying way more plays. But now that you're doing more of this, you're suddenly having to worry about, like, you know, hundred other things because of, who people expect you to be and through their eyes, who you see yourself to be.

Kahran: Yeah, I mean, I think there's some truth to that, but I think also, as you start to do it more, your expectations start to change. Right? Like, now I'm less willing to go and see a show that I feel like is shitty. Right? Like, I actually left a show in the spring, at, intermission, which I never done before, but I was kind of just like, this is not worth another 2 hours of my time. Didn't help. It was, like, three and a half hours.

Divya: Oh, my God.

Kahran: Yeah. And then also, now I'm, like, more cognizant where I'm like, okay, if I am gonna be sitting for a while, like, I wanna sit in a chair that, like, I can, like, extend my left leg. Cause, like, my hip will start to bother me after a while. So I'm not as willing to, like, take any seat. Right. Like, I wanna sit on, like, the left hand side of the aisle. So, yeah, I think I feel like that identity doesn't add that much for me, at least right now. Right? Like, I could be more, like, kind of cultured or, like, have that as part of my identity, but I'm just like, ahh. it comes with, like, all this baggage, especially in this part of the world. But I think what's kind of interesting is I feel like, for our guests, especially for computational mama, she kind of created an identity that gave her more space. It let her do things that she felt like weren't as available. It's interesting, I think, what you're saying about Mansi, because I feel like she also has created an identity that it let people open up to her in a way that otherwise it wasn't possible to. Right. She could connect with people in a way that she couldn't connect otherwise. It's interesting.

Divya: I wonder if it also just lets her be freer. That was also one of my biggest takeaways. for some time, I was like, oh, but those people don't know who you really are. And then when she shared the story about the guy who actually did figure out who she was. And then he was just fully sympathetic, and I was like, Maybe I am more inhibited about it, and other people would not be so guard up against a concept like this. Like, I would feel very strange doing something like this because I'm like, oh. But I want to be, like, 100% myself. And that, like, actually gave me the posture. I was like, Is my bid to be 100% myself the thing that is, like, stopping me from being 100% myself because she can actually share a lot more and be more open and be more available to listening to people, also, because she's like, yeah, I know that none of this can be traced back to me, and I'm okay with that.

Kahran: Yeah, it's very interesting, too, because, I don't know, I remember when I was quite young, maybe 15 or 14. Must have been 15. Let's be real. I was getting a fake id because you can't drink in the US until you were 21. Right. And for some reason, I was talking about it with my aunt, my father, sister, mai. Booah. and she was horrified at the notion. She was like, how could you misrepresent your identity? It wasn't even the fact of, like, it was like, that. It would say that I was someone I wasn't. Was what was so shocking to her. And I still remember being so stunned that that was the part that bothered her. Like, I thought she would be mad about, like, you know, buying alcohol illegal or something. Right. But no, it was the idea that you'd be representing yourself as someone. You're nothing. And she's like, we don't do that. Right? Like, that is not something we do in our family. Like, you cannot do that.

Mansi says in India, changing your identity is taboo

so it's just interesting, I think, that you grow up with these senses of, like, what is accessible and not accessible. And I think maybe you also grew up in a way that just was very weird, the notion that you would represent yourself as someone you're not.

Divya: It's also very interesting that you use the word accessible and not. Correct. Right. Because in my mind, it's not an accessibility question. In my mind, it is a, like, moral validity question. Say more because I feel like, oh, no, it's wrong to do that. M. And it's also very interesting. I didn't think it was wrong of Mansi to do that. I would feel like it is wrong if I did it.

Kahran: Yeah, I think that's what my bu. I was getting at, right. She would feel like it was wrong if she didn't at that point, I was young enough and, you know, close enough that I think it was a reflection of her is how she felt. Right, that she was like, you know. No, I don't necessarily feel like there's something morally wrong about it, but I can see how people would feel, I think, especially for my family, because there's. So much of them are in the defense forces in India. This. Ideas of identity are so strong.

Divya: m it's just interesting that for you, it's a question of accessibility for you, it's a question of, is this a part of your possibility space or.

Kahran: Not everything is that way, really. Just some things we label are not possible because of moral reasons, and some things are because of, like, you know, wherewithal or difficulty or.

Divya: M. I feel like morality is different from possibility. Yeah, yeah.

Kahran: Hold on to that thought for 1 second. Because even if you think about someone, like computational mama, I, feel like her identity did not make available for her the things that she wanted to do. Right. There was an expectation of her to kind of behave as a mother and, like, do all these things inside the house, and she wanted an identity that gave her more, so she made it.

Divya: That is also another interesting point. Digital identities being different from yourself. Don't feel off to me, because as a super young kid, I used to be, like. Which is not as common in India that, like, I used to be on IRC. And, you know, just, like, spend a lot of time talking to people who. I have no idea who they were. Are they alive? Are they real? Who knows? but it's just interesting because I had a moniker then, and I used to use that moniker in my gaming days. So somehow computational mama as an identity doesn't feel like I didn't even make that connection between the identities thing until you said it today. Like, identity was a theme in the two episodes that we did.

Kahran: I think there's a cultural also, which I think is what makes it even more unusual, because I feel like in India, to change your identity is really like you're changing who you are. Right. You're not acknowledging your family in some ways. Right. I think that's a big thing. Whereas I feel like. Like, I feel like in the US, it's not as big of a deal. I don't know. It kind of gets into, like, what is identity? Is it just your name?

Divya: Yeah. Like. And not. Yeah. In the sense of, like. I agree. Yeah. It is just your name. I mean, like, yeah. What is identity?

Kahran: Yeah. For example, one of my cousins, the person he married went from being hindu, to being a southern Baptist. And a southern Baptist is like, it's a pretty strict interpretation of Christianity. And, yeah, you know, that's a big part of her identity that's shifted. And I don't think you hear those stories as much in India. It's very surprising when you hear those kinds of stories of people who have kind of completely changed. And, in fact, I think about it, I know people who have tried and kind of failed. Like, one of my neighbors when I lived in Bangalore, his family business was, I think, in steel, and maybe steel rods. and he really wanted to be a jeweler. And, eventually, I think he had his jewelry, store and kind of, was making and designing jewelry for maybe about a decade. And at some point, the family business was like, they really needed him. and he gave up his jewelry store, and now he goes and works on the steel rods.

Divya: Oh, my God.

Kahran: Yeah. You know, and I think he's, in his mind is not forever, right? It's, you know, that there's a period. Well, you know, his father is older, and they need to transition the business and whatnot. But I know many people like that. And even one of my wedding planners is in a really similar space. Almost identical, actually. because of the age, we all are, right. All of our parents are kind of getting older, and a lot of these, like, family run businesses. It's kind of a question of, like, who is going to take it over? And even if that wasn't part of your identity or your plan, now that someone has some expectations from you that you got to figure out, are you going to deal with, or are you going to find a different way? Wow.

Divya: What a heavy thought.

Kahran: In some ways, Gaurav and I have talked a lot about, how we are kind of lucky to be a gay couple in indian society because there's so few expectations, whereas for almost every other kind of person, there's a lot load of expectations.

M. M.: Having children changed my world. And, like, seeing my child learn was like,

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: I mean, I didn't really get to say this, but I also thought it was really interesting when you were kind of pushing, computational mama on, like, do you feel like you're applying the lessons that you learned as a mother? And she was just so dismissive of that notion. It was really funny, actually, because she was just kind of like, no, he's learning to stand by himself and, like, he's learning how to, like, poop and walk. Like, these are not, like, deep lessons that I am teaching him. These are things he's learning about the world. And, like, I had to learn all these other things in order to be able to be a good coach, be a good, it was just so interesting because I feel like so many people are like, oh, yeah. You know, having children changed my world. And, like, seeing my child learn was like, I was reminded about, like, you know, the joy of learning and the joy of life and whatnot. And it's just interesting, I think, you know, maybe if you haven't forgotten those things that you don't need to necessarily have those lessons reminded to, and then you can kind of focus on other things.

Divya: Yeah, it's very interesting. I was talking to her recently, and, she said how her son is, like, really creative. He, like, often makes very interesting things and which, like, for a very young kid is like, oh, my God, that is really cool. And, her perspective on that was, oh, all kids are creative. you just need to, like, you know, nurture it. I was like, that is not how most adults think. Like, that is definitely very far from how most adults think.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: And, like, it just ties down back to, like, you know what you just said that if you haven't forgotten parts of yourself, then you don't need to be reminded of those parts, which also kind of is about identity. Right.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Like, if you haven't forgotten that you are creative, then you, like, stay in touch with that. And so, like, you know, you're not seeking that out from something else. You're just like, yeah, of course they're creative.

Kahran: Well, interestingly, that podcast I was mentioning a few minutes ago, the Knowledge project, one of his most recent episodes, they talk about something about this, and usually it's sometimes that you were protecting yourself in some way. Right? So you say I'm not creative, or you taught yourself that when you were little, maybe because you got hurt in some way, right, where you were like, no, if I show myself to be creative, like, people will make me feel bad or I will feel bad about myself or some. Right. And then what the problem is is that you can, it becomes generational, right? Because you have this in the way you act about creativity or whatever it is, you teach your child that they also should have this apprehension from it. M. Yeah, that's really interesting. Right? The fact that even though she doesn't consider herself to be creative, clearly in her way that she interacts with creativity, she's managing to not make that scar for her child, which is amazing. That's really nice.

Divya: Yeah. I think that is what I also felt, when we were earlier discussing about Mansi and her floating identities. I think that, like, it was just very interesting to hear somebody who I know is very morally high grounded person in the sense that, like, she is a very strong moral center. She has a sense of ethics, of doing right in the world, right by people. And that was very evident in the patriotism part, how she had, like, such a nuanced view of patriotism. And I was like, huh? There's something m that is missing in my model here.

Kahran: Interestingly, it's kind of the opposite of where I come from sometimes, because, like, I'm always very concerned about being misunderstood. It's very important to me that I'm articulating in a way that people understand, and it's just kind of clear that. Right. That's not as big of a deal for her. She's okay with kind of people understanding whatever they want to understand, and, oh.

Divya: My God, my biggest fear. Oh, no, somebody has misunderstood. No, we must correct them.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Hm. This was an interesting conversation. I'm really looking forward to, like, us talking to more people and then, like, also trying to understand how, like, talking to these folks has changed how we think. Like, for me, the most exciting part was, like, I could get to hear you talk to someone while nothing, knowing what's coming.

Kahran: Yeah. I think I also didn't realize. I think I'm not as comfortable giving space as you are sometimes. And I make me wonder a little bit about how. How that has shaped the direction our podcast has gone. because I thought it was just interesting how, I think when you do kind of give more space, you do just end up, I think, kind of exploring things a little bit more, if not more fully, at least from more angles than you would initially. Oh, right. Like, I think it kind of makes the other person almost feel like they need to partially fill the space, but partially just like. Like, do something with it. Right. So they end up kind of sketching it out in a little bit more of a full way, whereas I think I. Right. Because I'm always coming from this place, and I want to help people, help people be understood and help everyone. So I'm always trying to take what my understanding is and try and, you know, validate. Was that correct? M. You know, are you. Do you have. Am I with you? Do you want me to fill that in a little more? Should we change that a little bit? But it just means that now you've drawn a little box, and sure, you're asking them, do you want to color the box differently or grow it or shrink it. But maybe they didn't want a box at all. Maybe they wanted a star.

Divya: Okay, interesting. I haven't, like, really analyzed our styles fully yet. Maybe we'll do a few more and then I'll give my wise feedback like you did.

Kahran: Yes.

Divya: Okay.

Kahran: Okay, bye.

Divya: Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music and our audio engineering is done by Akshay from BDRPT Music.

Kahran: If you found this topic to be interesting or have other topics you wish we would explore on a future episode, please reach out to us at our website. Joyous studio.