Thinking on Coding, Creativity & Culture with Computational Mama

Today we talk to computational mama about her work in coding

: Hi, I'm Karin. Hi, I'm . Thinking. Thinking. And this is thinking unthinking. Welcome to the 32nd episode of thinking unthinking. Today we talk to the amazingly creative and multidimensional computational mama. We talk about her work in coding, how she made the shift from design to development, all the things that she has learned, how she got into teaching, and a bunch of other interesting things, including how cool her mother is. We hope you enjoy this episode. Why do you like being called computational mama? Like, you're not a gamer, you're not a hacker.

: I don't know. It just.

: But, like, you know, you've chosen, like, a moniker for yourself.

: It just stuck. Like, when I started, it was, like, a secret ish Instagram, because I didn't want to put my. This stuff in my main Instagram, which, incidentally, now I don't even. Like, I don't even have a login. I don't even remember the password of. So what happened was that I was like, okay, let's do a funny name. And I just in. It stuck. And then eventually, what was interesting and has even something I spoke about to another friend in the morning is that. So I slogged my butt off for, like, so many years in the museum, and, that, like, culture sector management kind of roles and design roles. And I have, like, really no recognition for it, except. M. My name might be on one wall somewhere in that museum, but it just gave me a sense that if, like, I'm getting recognition with this name, and I'm. It's not like my personality is changing with the name. I'm still just me, but I just felt I should embrace it as much as I want to. And it, like, allows, like, I can make more space for myself. M the moniker, which in itself is so big than with my name. I feel like that's where it's at, basically.

: That's so interesting. Have you heard of this thing called secret identity effect or superhero identity effect, whatever it's called.

: No. It sounds like me. Sounds like you're applying it to me. No.

: Like, I was recently listening to. This person was talking about how this person was a youtuber, and they were talking about how they find it really challenging to be social. but they, like, made this personality and identity for themselves. And that is the person that you see on screen. And that person is outgoing and talkative and keeps people engaged in his life of the party. But the real, quote unquote version of them is totally not in their mind. They are two different people. You feel like you are two different people.

: No, no. It's not like Beyonce and Sasha fierce. It's very. It's still me. But I feel like, maybe I have more. I just give myself a bit more space with this moniker to be myself, to sort of say what I want to and say. Like, if I'm saying something meaningful, it. Somehow I just find that the impact is also a bit more when it's coming from this. I don't know, it's just maybe a mental thing, but.

: Okay, so, for some context, computational mamade started her life as a designer, and she used to do a lot of exhibition design work, and then she shifted into being computational and mama almost together.

: So my dad was a tinkerer with computers, and, like, even in those days when, you know, you have to hook them up to tvs and stuff, like, in fact, I have never seen that one, but that's what they would tell me. and then my mother, because she was a designer, she needed a computer pretty early on, and she had all these, like, whatever, all the software that we use now in their original Adobe formats. and, so, I mean, it was like, when she was not using them, we were just tinkering on it all the time, me and him. So I was always very interested in electronics, and particularly in computers. And I think I really didn't understand what was the in, unless you, like, became. Went into b tech degree, which I didn't want to do. Like, vehemently didn't want to do. So anyway, so then it kind of. When I moved into college, of course, there was no, like, no coding, nothing of that sort. But I think, creative coding stuff was already kind of. Kind of gaining some momentum, maybe, say, like, 2008 ish, when I started looking maybe a little bit before, but that's when I discovered it, and I was like, oh, hey, this seems to be an interesting space to kind of navigate and look at, but I just couldn't. Like, the examples were too focused on mathematics. They were too stem focused. So it just, like, it would just slip away from us even if we tried. and then coding train is this NYU professor who has a YouTube channel, and he started doing lots of these streams which are also, like, very, you know, impromptu and very, like, full of energy and sort of not very stifling in that way. And then I think I was like, okay, this is interesting. I can pick this up. And literally, I was just like, I didn't know what to do because I was supposed to be on bed rest and, like, when I say I was a designer or an exhibition designer, it literally meant we were on site for most of the time, so one couldn't do the running around anymore, which had become so sort of like the key clear focus, especially at that time. Nanditi and I met on that project, and I was like, what do I do? So I started trying this stuff, and then it was, it was looking interesting. It was. I had already been tinkering a bit with, like, raspberry PI and ssh and, like, you know, trying to maybe figure out servos. And I burnt a computer because somebody told me, hey, why don't you just dual boot it? And then it just, like, it went up in flames. Like, not flames, but, yeah, smoke. And then. So I was like, okay, but this is interesting. Like, this, this, like, gives you a space to understand machinery as, you know.

: As burning up your computer is interesting.

: Yeah. I mean, it's like we give technology this kind of space of perfection, and then when you see something like that happen, and then you open up the computer and you see, oh, just like this one thing I did, literally did this. And I was really lucky at that time. I befriended a, technologist who was really sort of open to sharing his, whatever his knowledge was. And he continues to be very, sort of very much like the person I go to if I'm really stuck. So that was useful. So that's how, the name stuck. And then I just had, like, you know, maybe, like, 2030 of us were following each other, who were all doing this kind of just before, like the pandemic, maybe a year before. And then this one person, abhinay Khoparji, who's like, this Algorev, kind of. He's the founder of Algorav India. And he's, he's also, like, creative, gone into tech, kind of, like somewhere in the middle, little bit like how we are. And he just, like, totally convinced me.

Ar genai is a design tool for me, really

He's like, nai, you can totally do this. You can come and perform and do the code on you on the project. And I'm like, how can I do this? Like, you know, you're asking the one who has no background, he's like, that's the whole idea that you can come, fail, try, do whatever. So that really gave me a space to see that, okay, this can merge into my existing practices in some ways, but then at some point, it just took over. Like, that merge became something else. And it was really nice because museums are like, one design can take you maybe many years to even see in fruition because you're coordinating so many things, there's money, this, that, and then here is this code I wrote and I hit play and it's like doing something interesting and then I hit plug in and the same code is doing something different, which that whole procedural aspect and that random aspect was very interesting and you know, like made my day a bit more achievable when like, you know, museums are mounting on top of diapers, on top of housework, on top of so many other things. Like probably. So I think it was nice to just kind of be in that space and share these little experiments and now it's so much more perfect. So many people are doing it, so everything looks very similar. maybe at that time it was still a bit fresh for Instagram, so I kept getting, making friendships and kind of looking at what others are doing and now I feel like, I know, I mean, I'm not a hacker or like, I'm not like one of the many people from the Ar genai community who are like really into it, but definitely like if they give me a bunch of their GitHub links to read through, I can at least understand what's happening and have an opinion about it. Maybe not a technical opinion, at least a communication level opinion. Like, hey, you know, you want people to get this, you need to figure this out kind of thing. So that's been very interesting and I feel like I've almost learnt a new language. That's nice because like, I already know Hindi, English, some Tamil, some Kannada, JavaScript, one of them, like that kind of a thing. So, yeah, so, and I think that it helped me really to move out of Adobe, which for me was a very interesting space to kind of look at. Like how can one prototype, how can one talk about your design work without using these tools? And again, it's like my dad, he was really into open source stuff and because he was in the education sector, he like, changed all the computers in the school to Linux. And he would keep pushing me, oh, try this, try that. And I would be like, this is not, you know, I don't know if you open these open source softwares that like GIMP and all I have, oh my God, it's like, how can somebody do their professional work on, it's impossible. Yeah, but now, because like say, maybe I'm at a space where it's more art direction and less like doing it yourself, it's really simple to just like prototype on P five js and then tell the development person that hey, we want something like this. Can you do this? So that's been very exciting. So it's like, it's still a design tool for me, really.

: It's very interesting that you say that, like, it is a design tool because, so our journeys have almost, like, mirrored each other. Like, you were a design person who went into technology, and I was conventionally trained to be in the STEM industries, and then I moved into design. I mean, I left the STEM industries very early on. M but, like, it's very interesting how, like, regardless of what, you end up doing, where you come from and what you learn also, like, shapes a lot about how you look at the world and, like, how you said, like, it is a design tool. It's almost like, you know, in your brain there is this base level of design learning that is just ever present. And you're like, okay, now I can just do this faster or better or differently or, like, with what it seems like is like, slightly lower stakes. Like, it, it's just you can do iterations easily. You can show it to people more easily.

I'm meeting more technologists who are doing more hardcore technology work

okay, so what part of your thinking as like, an exhibition designer do you think come into picture? And what part of, like, you know, you're thinking generally come into picture? Especially, I don't know, when you talk to, like, people who have more conventional coding experience and who just, you know, sort of who studied cs and then the stayed in the domain and, like, you know, maybe instead of learning a couple of languages, they're just like, you know, just deep into that one specific thing or something like that.

: How do I feel different from them is what you're asking?

: Yeah. How do you feel differently? How do you think differently? Like, how do you look at them? And I like, why does this not seem like a design variable in this situation to you?

: So, because we were running this creative studio, like me and Nanditi, the technologists who've been working with us in the past have been people who are, like, looking for some kind of, like, cultural emancipation, shall I say, or, like, looking for. I mean, I don't want it to be demeaning, but yes, you know, they are also looking for projects that are more meaningful. And I think it's an easy thing to enter, arts kind of a space to get a bit of that. And of course, one or two of them were also, like, practicing semi as designers. So what was interesting was to kind of, like, unfold that idea with them. That whatever we are producing at what intersection? Like, is it art, design and tech? Like, what are those meeting points. And at what point we have to like bow down to the technology and at what point we will bow down to the design. And I think that collaborative space was interesting because it wasn't like we were eventually going for that vision, which was a vision of an artist or an arts organization. So then eventually, you obviously make it more design focused. But now that I'm working with GUI and I'm meeting more technologists who are doing like more hardcore technology work, I think it's very interesting because one is like, I've never like worked in a product company, I've always worked on projects, right? So one has like this shift of vision which you can carry very quickly and with lot of like rigor, but you're still moving from one vision to the other. But with product you feel like you have to be very focused, so you have to take forward that one thing really slowly and iteratively and like keep going with it. So I feel that's very nice and it's very different for me right now. I am allowing them to do what they're doing and just seeing where I fit into all of it. So I really don't, maybe I don't have a very strong opinion about how they are practicing. Definitely have many strong opinions of what they think over the rest of the world for sure. I mean, of course, but at least in perspective of what they're doing, I'm just interested to see how they achieve it. And I feel like most of the conversation I see there's a balance of talking about tech and business. But yes, I feel like a very limited conversation on their end about the user, about design, about like the end person in the end who's working with it. So like, I don't know what are those layers between them and that end user, which I think for designers it's always like that's the practice. You start with the user and. Yeah, and here it's, so that is of course something that, it's very new for me, but I'm allowing myself to just like absorb it in the moment and just see, see where it goes. Like I think many of these, especially this rag stuff that's been happening, like end user still like currently you're just like the developers thinking that his or her end user, their end user is just another developer, you know?

: Yeah.

: So, but like now where we are in, at Gui is we are really looking at the end user. So, so I'm just figuring like for me it's very new, working in like product in this way. So I'm just like letting it go as it is.

: It's also interesting.

When you're building tech, conversations often take place around cultural impact

So like when you worked in museums, would you say that like there were a lot of conversations around like cultural impact of whatever you are creating? Because I would imagine that like a lot of times museums are being built precisely for the cultural impact.

: Oh yes, right, yeah.

: Uh-huh but when you're building in tech, while you're gonna create massive scale and cultural impact, I don't think that a lot of conversations happen around the cultural impact of things.

: Ah.

: How do you feel about that? Do you have qualms about it?

: My main thing is like this data bias stuff which has been like really been a burning question for me. But obviously I have very limited resources as an individual to capture that. So basically the museums that I work for across like government funded and privately funded and from 100,000 sqft size exhibition space to I've done even 1200 square feet. So just like a small house.

: Oh wow.

: So you know, it's like big to small. I've done many types, and I think all of them start with this basic thing where they say that everybody should have access to it, you know, that everyone should have access to the story that we are telling. So. And usually in my case at least, I have only worked on like more narrative driven museums, than just like museums with objects inside of them. So think indian music experience versus.

: Like a history museum or something like that.

: Ha. Like maybe just a museum with objects in it. Just like a government simple archaeological museum. So I've done more of the narrative ones. So then it's really about telling stories. It's telling stories in a way that's accessible. So there's a huge trickle down, like, so imagine like these experts who have worked for years and their PhD in their subjects and they want to tell everything about whatever they know. But then, you know, there's one person who wants to come and just do it for like five minutes or like maybe has 40 minutes to spend before they go to their next commitment. So there was one designer who really like affected the way I'm looking at it. And I think we have passed that practice on to even our digital projects. And in fact now in GUI also I've been talking about this is that there are two main kinds of visitors. You will get a racer and a grazer. So a racer will just like race through your museum and they want to get everything in like that 40 minutes time that they have before they go away. And then there's a grazer who's like, a grazing in the field. So they'll go through every single piece. They'll, like, really be there for two, 3 hours and absorb everything. You know, they'll come out. They both will come out enriched. It's not that I'm saying that the racers don't value the experience, but they look at it in a different way. It's like how, you know, some people surf the web really fast and some kind of really go through each page. So that allowed us to really, like, look at layering of information. And I think with the web, it's so much more important. M. Yeah. So, basically, this impact, of course, is very large. And I think I. Particularly with indian museums, you have this thing. Oh, no, no. Everybody around has to have. So then there are those layers, the people who are, like, right at your community level to the foreign tourist who's coming into the museum. And how do we kind of include all of them? Of, course, politically also, there's a lot of accessibility around language. That's very important. So at least one extra vernacular language is needed and how those translations work, what level we want it to work in, all of that.

When you're scaling projects, you have to look at diversity

So that's something I've also been thinking about. Like, when you're looking at the museum, you're thinking accessibility to all, which basically means a diverse set of people coming into your museum from diverse backgrounds. But that's something that I find that gets totally missed out. When we think about scaling projects on the web. Like, look at the biggest scaled project right now, say, maybe Facebook or Instagram. It's really thriving on diversity, and we just totally forget about that because we are so, like, pigeonholed within that. Right. So, of course they know how to, like, keep their silos in place, but everybody's still using their projects. And so that means that when you're scaling, you have to look at diversity. You can't just think next billion means it's like one category of demographic that's, like, in a tier two city of a particular age. They are across, you know, that it's porous, like, in that sense. So that's something I'm finding really missing in the language. And I feel like if that kind of becomes much more mainstream, like, really effectively looking at diversity, it will affect all aspects, like the data bias aspect as well, because immediately you are, like, looking at diversity in a particular way, which means you are looking at your research in a particular way, which is then kind of has this more formidable effect on the technologies who obviously don't have the bandwidth to think about all of this, but keep it as a key part of their project when they are starting off. What would that mean if that went reverse?

: That is very interesting. I think that you have a much more hopeful view of this than I do. I think coming from an engineering college with like 90% guys, and they all think the same, feel the same. Okay, I'm, being very like, non generous here, but I think there is this temptation to almost think that, like, everybody has the same life experiences as I do.

: Absolutely.

: Like, I've had so many conversations with guys who were in my college and, you know, when the me too movement happened and after that, like, I've had some conversations with guy friends who were like, oh, is this real? Did this happen to you also? And they're like, they're being very kind, they're being very sweet and, you know, it's, it's very, very nice, but at the same time, it's like, yes. And then in reality, it's like, you know, even there, 10% of the population went through this. Right? Like, even, like, 10% is not insignificant.

: Yeah.

: Like, in a college of 5000 people, that's like 500 folks. 500 folks went through that. That's a very large number. But, there is this, like, I don't know, homogeneity breeds, like, intolerance in a particular sense, for sure. And I think that, like, that has become almost the backbone of tech. There's like a particular kind of person who ends up being in tech and who ends up rising through the ranks in tech. and it's very, I don't know, it's very hidden and it's under the layers, but at the same time, it's also very visible if you try to see it.

: So visible. Like, it's so, I mean, like, just, just look at the surnames, you know, as an indian, just look at the surnames and, you immediately know what's happening. And that's very unfortunate, but it's the truth. And I think that that's a problem that we, if these guys are not able to make space for us, we just have to make it for ourselves. And I think you and me, we are kind of doing that. I can see that.

: Yeah.

Did you used to teach people before becoming a creative codere

So, like slightly switching tracks?

: Sure.

: Did you used to teach people before you became a creative codere? Like, were you interested in, like, teaching also, like, for context? she and her co founder Nanditi have been running these like, really amazing code rift workshops where they get people to do music plus coding plus, like, some, some cool visual stuff. Like, she can talk more about it, but that's the context.

: Yeah, I never, Maybe I just took, like, maybe one or two design kind of modules. But Agath, my partner, has always been, in design education. So I hear about it a lot. My mother has always been in, and my dad, of course, he was part of a school admin. So, like, I understand the modalities of it at different, like, layers and different levels, but I don't know. I really didn't think I had anything to teach in design. But here I really found a space because I was like, there are these creative people who are interested in learning technology, and there's, like, very limited kind of formats for that to reach them. And now that they are seeing me do it, they were asking me, they were like, hey, can you teach us? So, like, my observation was very, like, it was all women who were asking.

: Me, you know, interesting.

: So that's how the first session started, actually. So it was like, Anisha Thampi, this young, person, Meilin, whose mother, who are all designers in that house as well. And then, of course, Nanditi was like, okay, just join. I was like, just join. Because there are more people, and it was all women, and they were all designers. So then I was like, okay, that means that there is something missing in the communication out there in the world that's not allowing them to access technology in this way. Something is, something is missing, and they're interested. So what would that mean? And that's really how it, how I started teaching them. And I literally learned, like, I would learn the concept a little bit better just before the class because then I was like, okay, I have to teach it. You know, one is to just know it, but then the other thing is to teach it. Those are two very different things. Sometimes it, like, makes so much sense, obviously to us, but when you're teaching it, it really changes. And I think that was really helpful because it made me a much more confident coder because I'm like, okay, now I know these basic things very well, and I'm actually really good at debugging stuff now, sometimes better than the chat GPT. But I mean, in the very, like this, in the classrooms, set where people are like, hey, this is not working. And I'm like, okay, that's because you've forgotten this thing here or this logic is wrong. So that was very interesting, and I thought it was a very surprising move for myself. I did not think of myself as someone who could be an educator in a more consistent way.

: Do you think it had something to do with the birth of your son and, like, almost taking on that role of, like, teaching this human how to navigate life?

: No, he was too small then, you know, like, he was really, really tiny when all of this started. So at that point, I didn't feel like, you know, like, that learning is so basic, like, just standing up or, like, potty training. So, like, I don't feel so much like I was teaching him anything. Like, you know, it's more like he was observing, and it's more like a facilitation of sorts. I don't know. In fact, even for. I was talking to Divas, he's, a curator, and he helped me write, like, an essay about all of this work. And I was, like, looking at the difference between being called a teacher versus being called a facilitator or something, and I feel like I still cannot resonate with being called a teacher.

: Okay. What's the difference?

: Like, to teach kind of gives me this feeling that it's this. It's one way only, but saying facilitator allows me to feel like I'm just kind of giving them the right kind of tools and practice processes, and then they are figuring it out themselves. M which seems more true to maybe something to do with feeling. Like teaching is about, like, has that, like, kind of school classroom kind of.

: Notion, like a weird power dynamic thing.

: Yeah, maybe. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

: it's also very interesting because creativity, is something that can be learned but cannot be taught. Like, somebody can create the right setup for you and give you the tools and answer your questions, but you kind of have to teach yourself how to be creative. Nobody else can teach you how to be creative, for sure, because what you're teaching is almost like, unlocking a different dimension of people's creativity. Like, they are creative in some domain, and then, like, how do you extend that to something else?

: yeah, maybe. Like, I grew up, like, my mom and dad are both designers. My dad never practiced. But some things came to just by, like, being passed down, you know, like, using a cutter really well or, you know, knowing how to half score a board. So you. You know, those things came to you at home which allowed you to be a little more, like, hands on. And I just feel like I had a lot of that nurture then nature kind of thing, at least in my creative practice. And firstly, it was, like, at home, and then I went and studied the same thing. And then, obviously, like, sometimes you are creative in a way which is not so direct. You know, the output is not direct. You know, maybe, like, my ways of teaching are creative. maybe my curriculum making style is creative, or maybe my art direction is creative. But I really wonder sometimes if I didn't have this background, if I would have been creative or nothing, you know? Like, when I say maybe, like some of my cousins, who are very similar to in nature, I feel like they ended up not being in creative fields. But sometimes I see people like you or I see Agath. You know, there is this inherent inside. It's there. So, like, for me, it's much more practiced. I feel like I know how to think differently, and that really helps me to push my boundaries a lot more. And it's not like an imposter thing. I just. I really feel it. Like, I'm creative.

: I can build your computer, but I understand it.

: I can build a very nice dinosaur mask for my son with whatever is available at home. No extra material. I can do that. I can do really good origami, and I'm really good with my hands and things. I'm quite okay. But I still feel like I don't think I can bear that title of being creative.

: That's so interesting.

Kali says coding requires some creativity, but so does design

So a thing that I've been recently thinking about, which is kind of in the same vein, is I was doing this, thing, Julia Cameron's the artist's way, and where she asks you to write three morning pages every day. and that has been an interesting exercise. But she also, like, gives you some prompts sometime. like, you know, your childhood memories or something. Something. And that's the week that I'm on right now. And, like, she asked to write something, like, what are your favorite traits as a kid? and it was very interesting because I did not write creative, but I was a very, very imaginative kid. and I think that, like, as I grew older, like, my understanding of it is I was imaginative. I think I was crafty as well. Like, I was good with my hands. but I think somewhere down the line, the productivity thing came in, and that is when imagination became creative, because I, like, added something to be produced at the end of it. and, like, we have talked about this many times, you've also, like, mildly scolded me on my, like, obsessive need to be productive. But, I think it's just interesting because, like, even when you were talking about it, it's almost like you're saying, I think that, like, I am creative by some definitions. But I don't think I have all of the components that would make me feel comfortable calling myself a creative while a good coder. You feel like I have all the components of that are needed?

: Yeah, absolutely. In terms of, like, being able to say that, yes, this is a skill set I can build on, I find that I can confidently say, yes, it's a skill set I can build on. I understand it. Understand how the logics work, etcetera. I understand when people tell me about it. But with design, I just feel like I used to always find that if someone did something which was brilliant, that I didn't feel like I could ever be there. Like, you know, like, there's no. I don't feel a natural way to paths to that. But with coding, I can. I can see that I am like, okay, if I want to be as amazing as niranth, what are the things I need to do?

: Interesting.

: I can chalk them out easily in my brain.

: So despite the fact that you have had, like, design learning for almost your entire life with, like, your mom being a designer, while on the other hand, like, yeah, the coding stuff is like, it's relatively new, right? Like, it's been five years or something like that.

: Yeah, yeah, I. It's very, very new. I mean, I'm not trained formally at all in it. I've not even done. I've not even done a coursera course. You know, I'm like, I'm so untrained. But that's how I feel. Like I. Even when Nanditi and I do the code riff at the end, we do a. We did a performance. I never feel like, oh, like I did a good job. but. But of course, some aspects, like how to get the client's vision out. I'm extremely good at figuring that out. and that requires some creativity. That requires a lot of having a knowledge bank of visuals and figuring out, okay, what will work for them. So that stuff I get. So maybe if one had to think of it as a problem solving thing. Yes. Very creative. Sometimes I do end up making interesting sketches on P five. I have reasonably good skills at sketching. I used to be really good at calligraphy when I was younger. Again, so something is. This is a book at home. There's a calligraphy pen nobody has used for five years done. I say like that. That's how I, like, finish things. Like origami book finished. You know, we didn't. I mean, we didn't have instagram when we were younger. So this is how I just. I explored things like this, and, you know, Kali, like, waste paper is there and you're allowed to use it. Imagine nineties. Where were we allowed to use wasteland paper? So, you know. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I was seeing my mom's practice also, which was very interesting. her practice is very rooted in, like, working for communication in the field. And that really gave me a sense of what all design can be. Those notional ideas of, like, universal design. This, that she came from, that background she was taught in Nid, and then she realized that those same things don't work here at all. and that was really. And that's again, like, this whole diversity aspect that, you know, like, as soon as you're talking about scale, she had this incident where she made a poster and that time you had to make it by hand, and she drew this person saying no, with their hand like this, and she took it to test in the field, and people thought they are waving. You know, they didn't understand this, or they didn't understand a cross as a no, they understood as two sticks.

: Oh, wow.

: yeah. So, you know, their visual understanding is entirely different. Or if you ask, mom's website, it's really interesting. So if you ask a person, a rural person who's maybe not gone to school, to, draw their body, they draw inside and outside together. And, pregnancy is not drawn by showing a big tummy. It's drawn by putting a black dot.

: Oh, wow.

: If you show a big tummy, it means that the person is bloated. You know, they have some kind of other gastric problem or, you know, some kind of, like, abdominal abnormality. So. And then she even found that the blob is differently portrayed across various, like, regions. but that was very. So it's been very interesting to see that journey of hers, which literally happened, like, as I was growing up, because she was, like, building this role for herself. And. And, yeah, my mom is really cool. She's a MacArthur grant winner also, which is like, yeah, wow, I wonder if.

Steve Gomes: I would never specifically say that I'm a designer

: That is also another thing that, like, you know, you have such incredible, from childhood, examples of designers that you're like, okay, that I can't get there.

: Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah. It was not just them, but, like, even in the classroom, like, maybe say in the design class, like, I. Hm. Would be like, okay, this person is really amazing, and I don't think I can achieve this, but now, and I can still feel like that about so many artists or designers, even, like, even a simple sketch you showed me the other day. I was like, I don't think I can think like that. It was something for your podcast client. I cannot think like this. But then if, like, you know, like, Dev and Irant will come up with some GitHub link, I'll be like, I have to figure out how they're doing. Like, you know, and I feel like it's like, okay, maybe if there was no yugion and I had, like, ten more hours to give every day, I would be faster.

: You would have.

: But also, if he was not there, I may not have been competition mama. So it's, like, very true.

: Very true.

: So it's very funny. Yeah. But, yes. Like, it's interesting. Like, in my role at a jaipgar, I'm still very much in the creative and, like, designed kind of space, because we do have to have a, you know, like, someone to do the development. but someone on. On the road asked me what I do. I will never tell them that I'm a designer. I would. I'll say, okay, I will work on websites. Or, like, I'll say I'm a tech. Maybe I'm a technologist. I work with AI. But. But I would never specifically say that I'm a designer. Which you might. I know.

: So that you are a designer. Yes, I would.

: No, no, that you might say that you are one.

: No, I definitely, I think, feel the most comfortable.

: You identify with. Yeah.

: I feel it's becoming lesser and lesser of my identity now, because it's like, at this point, if I include product designer, brand designer, and, game designer, then that is 50% of what I do. So that I can still say that that's the most, you know, inclusive. I don't know, identity. But I have no idea how I'm going to define myself in a year. But I've just accepted this aspect of my personality where I'm like, you know what? I'm never gonna settle on one thing. The moment I have a description for myself, I'm gonna be like, bye, now. I'm gonna figure something else out 100%.

: I'm, in that same boat.

: Oh, no. So then, like, once you fully feel like you have embodied, computational mama, then you can. You're gonna be, like, now time for something different.

: But that's the thing. Maybe, like, competition can be, like, definitely growing. So. So maybe, like, maybe it can. It can last a little longer, or maybe, like, until I become a grandmama or something. Or if that's ever in the cards anyway, so, yeah, awesome.

: This has been a super fun conversation. Do you want people to check out something that you've made? Or, like, you know, where can they find you something like that?

: So you can see some of the things that we are doing together, including code drift, which  mentioned on ajaybgar co on Instagram. And, I am on computational mama. M a M a, not m u m m a. also on Instagram.

: Thank you so much for coming, computational mama.

: Thank you.

: Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes, and our audio engineering is done by akshay from btrpt Music. We hope you enjoyed listening to this episode, and if you would like to know more about our guest, you can refer to the show notes. Thank you.