Thinking on Careers & Work with Fran Dunaway

This week we talked to Fran Dunaway about life before starting Tomboy X

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Kahran. And this is thinking on thinking. Welcome to thinking on thinking. This week we talked to Fran Dunaway. Fran is maybe best known for starting Tomboy X, the innovative underwear athletic wear sleepwear swimwear company that she founded with her wife almost 15 years ago. And now they have offerings for all types of bodies and all types of people. However, before Fran started Tomboy X, she had a whole set of careers. And getting to talk to her today about the choices that led to success in those careers and the choices that led to her walking away from those careers. We love today's conversation and hope you enjoy it, too.

My dad was drafted into the Vietnam war and ended up making a career out of it

Okay, maybe can you give, like, a two minute intro, like, how you came to be the person you are?

Fran: Well, my roots are in the deep south, and my dad was drafted into the Vietnam war, during the Vietnam war, and ended up making a career out of it. So he, ended up being there for 21 years and retired as a lieutenant colonel. He was a helicopter pilot, and so really provided an opportunity for he and my mom to experience different things. So leave small, rural Alabama and Mississippi and go places they would have never gone. And then my dad, you know, he would get us stationed in different parts of the country or the world. And so, ended up landing in Missouri for 6th grade through actually, grad school. I ended up in various parts of Missouri at that point. My mother, she was taking homet classes, being the good southern woman. And, when she met my dad, and she was, she actually had a job, she was working. And, they met at a pantyhose factory outside of Alabama, I believe. And so she is very independent and strong willed. And so she had, worked her way from a secretary at the time to a stockbroker. And so she had a career in Missouri, in Kansas City, and she was like, oh, I'm not moving with you again, so go where you need to go, but we'll be here when you get back. And so when my dad got stationed in Iran, I actually lived with my aunt my last, my senior year of high school in Kansas City. And then my mom was working all the time, and my brother asked to go to military school, so he went to military high school in Mexico, Missouri.

Kahran: Oh, wow.

Fran: And so he was. He was out of the house at that point as well.

Kahran: He was 15 or something.

Fran: Exactly. Exactly.

Kahran: Wow.

Fran: Another thing my parents did, which I am always really appreciative of, is my dad was working at the command and general staff College in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. And so different families, military families from around the world would come to go to this command and general staff college for a year. And so they needed families, local families, to kind of meet them at the airport, help them get adjusted, help them find an apartment. So my parents always found families with kids. So my brother went to school with several kids that came from other countries, and we're still close to all of them, so it's kind of interesting.

Kahran: So. And you were how old when you were, like, meeting these families that you were helping kind of get settled?

Fran: It was, yeah, it was all through my high school.

Kahran: Okay, so you were in Missouri at that point?

Fran: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Kahran: Okay.

Fran: And we had, the first family was from Holland and the second from Turkey, and then the last family was from Iran.

Kahran: Wow. I'm, like, trying to imagine, though, because I remember myself in high school and I definitely had not come to terms with being queer, gay, and being associated with people who were also not cool would have just been, I don't know, I feel like I already was so stressed about feeling cool and fitting in. That's really amazing to me that you were. I don't know, did you worry about these things at that point or do you remember, were you a cool kidde? Were you a rebellion kid or.

Fran: I went through phases. I went through phases because moving to different places every year is really stressful if you're, especially if you're not going to a military school at that point, I was 6th grade. I was just a very happy kid, always had been full of smiles. And so I had a real shell shock when I first got there because first thing is that I befriended a little girl, a fellow 6th grader in my class who I thought was just really smart. And she sat at the front of the classroom, Sandy. And she would raise her hand and I always had great answers. And I thought, oh, isn't she smart? And, turns out she was the, kind of born again christian side of things. And so, wasn't the cool kid. And, I quickly became associated kind of with her and then realized that that wasn't the place I wanted to be. I started going to church with her and her family and it didn't sit well with my mom. And so, you know, she felt like they were kind of trying to lure me into this other way of being.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: And so eventually I just kind of tossed all that.

Kahran: Did you feel like it was, like, useful for you at that time?

Fran: Oh, no, I just really liked her. Yeah, it became pretty brutal. I had some really mean girls that would follow me around and really harass me. And so after that, I decided to become a cool kid and, you know, stealing cigarette.

Kahran: Oh, really? Was that like 8th, 8th grade? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 8th grade, I feel like is when.

Fran: Yeah, exactly. So I became the first smoker and, you know, borrow cigarettes, steal cigarettes wherever I could, or, you know, that kind of thing, and started smoking and drinking and all the bad things.

Kahran: But you never felt like you were like a thief or something, like, even when you were, like, stealing cigarettes?

Fran: No, I think I felt really bad whenever we do that. And, it was more a way to fit in. In high school, my reputation became Fran Ah, never gets caught. And so that was definitely part of my identity. And, you know, all the cheerleaders were my friends, and I played sports. I was an, MVP, and I was from the deep south. And so we just do things a little bit differently, you know, I shot my first shotgun when I was like seven or eight, and so I learned how to drive when I was twelve.

Kahran: Interesting. Do you feel like, like if you contrast with, like, your wife, do you feel like, like the kind of things that she was doing at those ages, like, what would be typical in a different part of the country?

Fran: Yeah, I think it was a number of things, because I had a lot of independence, because my mother was, had chosen to become a career. I was a latchkey kidde, so I had a lot of freedom. I think I also just kind of did things my own way. And so I, you know, I knew how to drive a car since I was twelve. And so I would just borrow the car. My dad bought this. That was our farm years, right? And so we had a garden, and my dad bought a 1953 Ford pickup and painted it fire engine red. And he would pick me up at school once in a while with this big Panama hat and cigar and, three dogs in the back. And I'd hide down at the end of the block and be like, don't come and get me in that truck again. My dad's got a tremendous sense of humor. He's just a really funny guy. And so, he liked to harass me a little bit. It was the seventies, and so there was just a lot going on. There were a lot of freedoms that kids don't have today, for example. And so the only time I got in trouble for borrowing the car was when someone, like the neighbor, saw me driving the fire engine red truck down to the river, you know, with eight girls in the back. And I think I weighed about 85 pounds. And. And the seat wouldn't move forward.

My parents grounded me for two weeks because their neighbor complained

It was a push start. And so in order to do the clutch, it was on the column, but in order to pop the clutch, I had to stand straight up. So I had to have someone sitting next to me shifting when I pushed the clutch in.

Kahran: Teamwork. Real teamwork.

Fran: Exactly. And then we'd go down in the river and play. Yeah.

Kahran: Oh, that's too great.

Fran: My parents were very, ingenious in their, you know, at that point, their neighbor complained. And so week before my 15th birthday, I was 14. And so they called me in on my birthday. I grounded them for two weeks. And so a weekend of being grounded, they, call me into the kitchen and they say, we have a contract here. We want you to say you will not borrow the car without permission and, you know, driving without a license and all this stuff. So I willingly signed the contract. There were two envelopes, and then the second envelope they handed to me, I opened it was tickets to Mississippi, to my grandfather's house, because the driving age in Mississippi at the time was 15. So they flew me to Mississippi so that I could get a driver's license and not have to deal with waiting till I was 16.

Kahran: Oh, my gosh. Oh, wow.

Fran: which I thought was brilliant.

Kahran: Yeah. That's such a clever. That's really nice parenting. I feel like.

Fran: Yeah. Yeah. I think it was one of their wins for them. Yeah.

Kahran: Yeah.

Your parents wanted you to go to college, so you went to college

What did you wanna be at that age? Like, did you, like, go on and go to college? Was that, like, definitely what you were doing, or were you?

Fran: I thought college was the thing you did. I didn't know that that was a choice. So it was a certainty that I was gonna go to college. My mom was a college dropout. My dad ended up getting his masters through the army as an adulthood.

Kahran: So how come it was such a certainty you were going to go then? Because neither of your parents did, right?

Fran: Oh, they loved it. Oh, they wanted you to go. Yeah. It was like, you're going to college. So I think at the time, for a long time, I wanted to be a veterinarian. I'm pretty sure.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: Yeah. Because I loved animals and I thought I'd have twelve kids because I loved kids.

Kahran: Yeah. Then you stayed in Missouri, so you went to college. You stayed in Missouri.

Fran: Yep.

Kahran: As you kind of went through those years, do you feel like, did you start to feel like you settled as, like you were still like, kind of the cool kid and like you were, I don't know, maybe contorting a little for that or did that like start to change as you got a little bit older?

Fran: You know, I think that, I was definitely dealing with my identity around my sexuality when, when I was a freshman in college. So when I came out, I kind of just partied a lot. And so I went to a smaller undergraduate school, and it was primarily an engineering school. My dad had, he got the command of a platoon in Fort Leonard Wood, Kansas, or Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, which was down close to this smaller school that was a primarily engineering school. So it was predominantly men and boys, and it wasn't a great place for female students at the time. But regardless, my parents were an hour and a half away. I was living with them. At first it didn't go well. My mother and I didn't see eye to eye for many years, and we're pretty estranged for a number of years. And so that kind of came to a weird, ugly place and I moved out and then moved into group living. It would look like a dorm, but it was really not part of the campus. And so I don't know, somehow managed to get through, get through college there. I ended up getting a, industrial design and psychology with some marketing degree, which I ended up getting a bachelor of science because it was a mining school, so there wasn't a master's program in my department. So I got to kind of work with the teachers, the instructors, the doctors, and got a really good experience that way. So I got to publish on some studies and stuff like that so that I wouldn't have had the opportunity.

Kahran: How, cool and sorry, but you're saying in industrial design, psychology and marketing was what you were studying?

Fran: Yeah, the studies that I was part of were more in the kind of psychology and industrial design stuff. And so that was pretty cool. And then when I was finished and was trying to decide whether I wanted to go into business or whether I wanted to do something with more purpose, and something that was more my values. So I ended up working at a group home. Not even a group home, it was an institution. At the time. They were called retarded. Today we fortunately call it developmentally disabled. But anyway, it was, rather large institution and it terrified me. It was one of the most frightening things I'd ever done. And so after a year of doing that, I decided to get my master's of education and not my MBA.

Kahran: Oh, wow.

Kahran: So at that point you felt like you kind of had studied these things, but the thing that you most interested you was the psychology aspect. And then you kind of went to pursue that, correct?

Fran: Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Kahran: Interesting. Were they children or adults at the institute?

Fran: They were children. The first group that I worked with were children. So my master's program was two years long, and I ended up managing a group home, for those two years that were adults, adult males.

Kahran: Wow. do you feel like you thought of yourself as, like, a caregiver? Did that start to feel like this is part of who I am at that point, or.

Fran: No, in fact, just the opposite. You know, being a latchkey kid, it was kind of dog eat dog fin for yourself a little bit, making things happen and not coming from a very nurturing environment, that just, that wasn't something. And, in fact, I think that that's why I kept going back is because I realized pretty quickly that I had more to learn than I had to teach. And so I really owe that to one particular person who happened to be working on the day that I started. And she was phenomenal. I ended up with her for ten years, but, she was just really, ah, a phenomenal human. And the way she worked with these people, Washington, unparalleled, or there was no one like it. And so I thought, well, if I can get to almost like her, maybe I could become, learn more about myself and become a different person. And in fact, when we were running the group home, so I took her with me to the group home, obviously. And one of the things we would look for when we were hiring people was, not people that wanted to come in and help these poor children, but were more, I'm sure I have something to learn. And so, that was pretty important. And, in fact, when she and I moved to Washington together, and we opened the first medically fragile group homes for children in Washington state.

Kahran: Wow.

I've often credited her with really teaching me how to love

So was, that the first time you feel like you had, like, a hero or like, someone that you looked up to or as just like, a person that inspired you? Is that.

Fran: Oh, that's a really good question. I wouldn't say it's the first time, but, wow. She was a really huge part of my life. I've often credited her with really teaching me how to love. and it's funny because she came through a, couple of months ago and was here at the house, and it was really interesting to kind of go back and think about, and talk about how we saw each other at the time. And so, yeah, she was really remarkable and had no fear and just was so kind and caring and giving to these kids and adults that it still impacts me to this day. I mean, just the way she would do it, because I can guarantee you, I saw a lot of horrible things.

Kahran: Yeah, I can imagine.

Fran: And a lot of people that were not good, kind, loving people. And so that was a big deal for me and just really taught me how to love.

Kahran: Yeah.

Your first job was to open the first medically fragile group home in Washington

Because it's interesting, because you already, at that point, it sounds like you started the group home. Is that fair? So you were already kind of doing entrepreneurial.

Fran: When I was working on my masters, there were group homes as part of this institution, so on the campus. And so I got promoted from where I was working with kind of more general population, and they moved me up to this. It was a big campus, and so we had our own house, but I didn't open that one. But when Kathy and I moved to Washington, my first job was to open the first medically fragile group home in Washington state. And that's, that one was very entrepreneurial. In fact, after we opened the first one, I realized quickly that I didn't want to run them. I just wanted to keep opening them. And so we opened up a few more, over the next few years. And, look, I was 25 years old, so, you know, this was a whole different thing. And so I liked getting them up and running and getting good marks from the inspectors and then doing it again and again. And so ended up by the, you know, four and a half. Five years later, I was the executive director for the whole agency and had 60 clients and 40 employees. And so now he's, what, 31? And that's when I sold everything and went to. Went to film school.

Kahran: Wow. So at that point, that's an agency that you and her had started.

Fran: We ended up working for an agency. It was Cascade Christian Services. She didn't work there first because she had just finished her bachelor of fine arts, and she was going to be an artist. And we moved to Bellingham, Washington, thinking we could find jobs. But turns out people with PhDs were bagging groceries there because it's really about the place to live. And so we were getting to a place where we really needed jobs. And I saw this ad for Cascade Christian services, and they were opening the first group home of this sort in a different town. And so I had a lot of autonomy, but I did work for the agency.

Kahran: Wow. And you just went and talked to them, and you were like, hey, you're opening one in this other town. I can help you open one in this town.

Fran: They were looking for someone to open in the other town, and they had been in trouble with the state. And this is a very conservative christian community up, in Lyndon, Washington. And so they were going to lose their license. So at the table was a woman from the state, and she, I'm, pretty sure, made sure that they hired me despite the fact that I didn't show up in a dress. I didn't have any friends that had cross necklaces I could wear. but I did show up with a lot of experience and enthusiasm for the population and for the project, and so they hired me, and then I would commute to this other town.

Kahran: Wow. And this is, you're 25 years old, and you've had one job?

Fran: Yeah. Yeah.

Kahran: You just inspired a lot of confidence in people. Like, even then, I, must have.

Fran: Yeah, I felt like I had the experience, so. Yeah, yeah.

Kahran: Interesting. I mean, it sounds like you felt confident about, you know, what you brought to the table, and that's amazing. Do you feel like that came out of your childhood and kind of moving around a lot, that you kind of, like, you were like, I know how to do this thing.

Fran: Yeah, I think that certainly, being an army brat, I can talk to anyone.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: and that just continues to this day. And really, I just really like people and stories and hearing about what people have done with their lives. And so that was always easy. And even I do remember I studied, I rehearsed, and I was very nervous about going into a christian agency. And it wasn't that I was overtly out, but I wasn't going to fake it. And so, I'm pretty sure it was.

Kahran: Oh, yes. Obviously, you were out to yourself and to your community.

Fran: Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember the outfit I wore to the interview. It was pink, and it had a vest as part of it, as the ensemble. amazing. And so. And I remember the woman and really connecting with the woman from the state. She was a badass. And, I felt like she was pretty clear that she knew who I was. And so I wasn't sure, you know, are these people gonna hire a lesbian? And, you know, and then a few years later, when they promoted me to executive director, that caused quite the stir, because not only did they hire me, but within eight or nine months, I convinced them, and I was like, I won't interview her. I want you guys to interview her. Because we needed a program manager. I was good at the logistics and setting up the running of the houses and hiring people, but she was great with the kids or the clients they ended up hiring. So the two of us ran the group home together, openly out to this community, even though it was never spoken about. And then. And,

Kahran: This is the eighties, right? Mid eighties.

Fran: yeah, mid eighties at this point. Probably 88, 89, nineties. Yeah. And so, they. They hired her. And then a few years later, fired the executive director and promoted me. But what I felt was interesting, and it was because he was doing a lot of really bad things. Paying his wife full time, for example. And she didn't work there. So it's just little subtle things. And not doing, a good service to the people in his community.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: And so they, And that was up in Linden, Washington. So I moved into his big office. It was. Oh, my gosh, it was insane.

Kahran: And, they provided a house to you?

Fran: Ah, no, it was an office. But we were still.

Frances says former executive director kept her in the dark about sensitive issues

Yeah, we were. I was still commuting because that was still outside of my purview. But there was this wonderful human being who is still there. I looked him up a few years ago. I'm sure he's still there. I won't say his name, other than George. And he was very much in the community and had worked with the former executive director for years. And I felt like he was the person that should have been promoted. But the former executive director had kept him so in the dark about things, for obvious reasons that George wasn't prepared. So my commitment to the, board was, let me come on for a year, work with him, get him into this seat, because he's part of your community. I'm not, and I'm never going to be. And so let me put him next to me and bring him along. And that's what we did. And he still runs the agency.

Kahran: Wow.

Fran: Isn't that cool?

Kahran: That is amazing. I'm also just amazed at, like, your ability to do that right. Like, especially at that age, or even any age. you know, a lot of people feel insecure about giving away power, especially once they have it, you know, and. And to feel like, you know, you weren't chasing more money, you weren't chasing more power. You were kind of happy to say, I'm, you know, I can add value here, and I'm, And then there'll be a point that someone else will add more value than me.

Fran: And it was his place. It wasn't my place. I think it just felt right, that's all.

Kahran: Wow.

Fran: Yeah. Yeah.

Kahran: So it's almost like a. More of a moral thing for you that it was like, this is the right thing to do.

Fran: Absolutely. Yeah.

Kahran: How interesting. Do you feel? Like it's. A lot of times it comes to that, like, with these kinds of questions in your mind, they feel like there's moral questions.

Fran: I think it just, Yeah. Matter of right or wrong, the right thing was that he was there. He'd been working there forever. This guy kept him in the dark, and. And this guy was a. Was not a good person. But it was also, you know, how long was I going to last in that community? And. And trust me, I mean, I had a guy circling the building, in his car.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: And then he went to all the neighbors and told them there was a lesbian running the. Running the agency now. And all of the parents of the people living there came to see me. But what they came to see was. Or what they saw when they came. So this guy that ran the agency had this big, ridiculous office. Like, you know, he needed this huge space, and so. And he has this big, manly desk. Right? And behind the door when you walked into his office was this metal box, and it was keys in every closet. This was a group home that had two long arms of rooms.

Kahran: Okay. Uh-huh.

Fran: Yeah. Two long arms of rooms. And then a shared kitchen. Living room. The kitchen had these little garage door windows that came down and locked.

Kahran: Okay.

Fran: All of the closets in the hallway, locked. He had keys to all. Everything locked. And I thought, what on earth? This is where these people live. Syndrome. Highly functioning. Some of them. You know, they. They were. They were. It was just a dark place. First day one, I unlocked everything and had those garage doors removed out off of their kitchen.

Kahran: Wow.

Fran: And so these families would come in, and they'd be like, this is amazing. Thank you.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: And so what could they do but, you know, be there and support? And, in fact, I helped move, like, four of them. They built some apartments, in the back, and then they were independently living. there was one down syndrome who. The woman whose name was Frances, said, oh, my God, she just loved me. And so it was. To me, there was another really important thing that happened that was just fortuitous, and that was, there was this amazing woman that got in charge of the Department of developmental disabilities for the state of Washington. And so their edict for us was that they handed down these values, and these values were something we were supposed to bake into how we ran the show, which to me was great, because I'm working for a christian organization that has lots of money, right? And so I could point back to the values and basically get anything I wanted. Like, I got 401k for the employees values, you know, and then for the. Because if we're supposed to treat the clients, if we need to help them feel a sense of value in a sense of status, then we need to make sure that these employees are feeling that, too, because you can't expect employees who aren't feeling valued or status or, you know, to trickle down, so you have to get them to a better place.

You were the executive director for six years before transitioning to director

So I got the highest pay, and there was a 200%, turnover rate in the industry at the time. Five years later, I still had 80% of our staff.

Kahran: Wow.

Fran: And so that was something that I was able to leverage, if you will, with the board, was, yeah, you're going to have to kick a little bit of money in. And, of course, I would go down and lobby the state capitol when it was time to talk to people. I remember, Gary Locke was a representative at the time, and he had a. I think he had a son or nephew that was down syndrome. So you just, you know, you figure out who. Who's got the. Who you're going to connect with to get your kind of agenda pushed forward.

Kahran: Wow. How did you. Did you, like, were you talking with someone about, like, oh, you know, I need a strategy right now to, like, do this thing, or were you kind of just, like, figuring it out? Like, how did you think of going to lobby and, like.

Fran: Oh, yeah, there was. Yeah, there was an organization. For sure. There was an organization of other group homes, and we would get together in meetings. Yeah.

Kahran: You didn't start this organization. It already existed.

Fran: No, no.

Kahran: I see, I see. Interesting. But so for six years, you were kind of committing there, but. And then there was one year that you were the executive director, and then you transitioned it over to.

Fran: Yeah, yeah.

Kahran: Wow. I mean, you were willing to commit a lot of time to that community, so.

Fran: Oh, yeah.

Kahran: Okay. I was just challenging your assertion slightly when you were saying that, like, you know, were you really going to commit to that community and do a good job for, as an executive director? I mean, you did commit to that community. You spent a lot of time and energy there.

Fran: Yes, yes. Not my life. Yeah. And I think. I think actually, I think it was there a, total five years. Total.

Kahran: Okay.

Fran: And. And when after we opened the first group home, then, we opened a second one, and up in north, of Bellingham, and so. And then got to. Got to kind of handpick the kids for that one. So, yeah, we ended up with a total of three group homes that I opened in the years before I became executive director.

Kahran: Wow. But, like, what happened? How did you decide that you wanted to go to film school? Like, was that already in the cards or.

Fran: No. You know, my dad gave me a little brownie camera when I was six, and I still have it, and it was one of those that you look down in to take a picture. And so I just fell in love with photography at the time, and I would just always had a camera in my hand. And so I was dealing with a lot of red tape with the, there was, you know, a lot of bureaucracy with, with group homes for kids and getting the right kind of equipment and the right kind of stuff. And I just felt like m it just wasn't right. There was just something that was broken within the system and it just wasn't enjoying it. I enjoyed the work, but I didn't enjoy the struggles. And so I remember Kathy and I were flying back from, a vacation hawaii, and I just looked at her and said, I'm done. I want to sell everything and go to film school. And I thought, film school, because it was, I like storytelling, I like writing, and then I also like photography. So I thought that was, that was a good match. And she was an artist, and so she thought, well, I'll go up there and work, you know, see if I can get a job in an art department or something. And so, we sold our house, we sold one of our cars, and we went to Vancouver, BC, and I chose Vanc there because, a, it was closer, and b, it was an immersive, one year long program. I thought at my age, you know, in my early thirties, I was not the oldest, but I was almost the oldest, that it would just be a good thing to go all the way through. And the other thing was, of the 25 students, they had 25 students every quarter, I think. And you would just go through with the same group. And of the 25, 24 wanted to be directors. I wanted to be a producer. And so, can you just define.

Kahran: It for our people?

Fran: Sure. Well, directors are ones much more involved with the onset, working with the actors, getting them to do the performance you want kind of setting everything that's going on, and then the producer is kind of the one who helps bring in the money for it and helps kind of everything run on time and frees up the director to stay focused, kind of what's on the lens, whereas the producer takes care of everything that's happening around the lens.

Kahran: oh, interesting.

Fran: And that's in film, not on television. In television, the producer is a producer slash director.

Kahran: Oh, I see. Interesting. is it fair to say that a director is more focused on the day to day, and the producer is more thinking about a little bit longer term or that's not quite right.

Fran: I think the director, at least in film, is much more in the creative.

Kahran: Okay.

Fran: So anything non creative, they shouldn't be bothered with because they're trying to just stay focused on the performance, how it looks, how it feels, what the camera's doing and that kind of thing.

Kahran: Got it.

Fran: Yeah. And it was also really appealing to me because I realized when we homework that I am much more inclined. I have to have a job that is purpose driven. And then the second thing is that I like a beginning and an end. I'm not a person that can do one thing for a very long, a dear friend who's worked for 33 years at Starbucks, and I just, there's no bone in my body that could ever have done that. And so to recognize that early on, I feel like it was good to know that a beginning and end, that's.

Kahran: Where I thought, oh, film amazing.

Fran: And then I'm done.

Kahran: And I'm just, again, like, amazed at your wherewithal. I need a better word for it. But you kind of had built, again, a position of respect. Right? Like, you were executive director of this group. you had multiple group homes, and then you were like, no, I'm willing to go and, like, kind of be a student again.

You decided to become a producer of films after working as a psych nurse

and then also with the idea that you're going to be a producer of films, like, isn't that hard to break into?

Fran: Oh, yeah. In fact, it's really hard, and I'll never forget. So I was working. I was working at the group homes, but then I was also, I was doing one shift a week at a psych unit in a hospital in Bellingham, and I hadn't been there for very long, I think under six months when I made this decision. And so I remember going into the boss there and saying, I'm sorry, I'm moving on. She said, well, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm going to film school. And she was like, oh, you should not do that. That show is too hard to break into. You'll never be successful. Really? Just, like, tried to talk me out of it, and I thought, no, I'm not, you know. Yeah, it was just not good.

Kahran: Wow. So you never kind of felt like, was there certain people's opinions you kind of cared about, or Kathy.

Fran: Kathy, for sure. Yeah. For us to do it together. Yeah.

Kahran: Also, sorry, just to rewind for 1 second.

Fran: Yeah.

Kahran: So you have a conversation on an airplane, and then that's it.

Fran: Yeah.

Kahran: Like, you guys literally decided whatever. A, five hour flight between Hawaii and m Seattle.

Fran: Yeah. Yeah, we did it. Yeah.

Kahran: Do you feel like there was disagreement or like you just were able to calmly say, I want to change our lives completely, and someone was able to calmly hear that and respond in kinderg?

Fran: you know, I just remember, no, I had left. I had left the Cascade Christian agency and had started my own with Kathy. That's right. We had started a separate agency. Well, we kind of merged with another agency, so it wasn't our own. And we had been doing that for a year. And that's when we decided that because the struggle was harder without that funding that we could readily access. And, And so it was just, you know, case. A lot more having to deal with caseworkers and whatnot. So, yeah, so we. We were doing that. We weren't working for the Christian, agency at that point. And so, yeah, I think we were just ready.

Kahran: That makes sense. Out of curiosity, was it that kind of asking people for money that was bothering to you at that point, or was it more the, like, bureaucracy of.

Fran: Like, I feel like. And it'd be interesting to see what Kathy's perspective would be on this, but I feel like, for me, there was one particular young man who came to us, and he needed a particular type of equipment. And, because when they brought him to us, he was six and he was from Laos, and he was so over medicated, getting a tremendous amount of value to control his seizures. He kind of seizured all the time. He had no control over any of his faculties. He was nonverbal, obviously, but Kathy was able to. She rigged him up this. This, contraption. She got a guy to put a board together, and we kind of strapped si on there. And so his hands were free. He was upright, and then put a buzzer. She put a buzzer, two buzzers down, and she would say, do you want water? Do you want juice? And he would, like, spin, like, three minutes. And then finally he would hit one. And we realized that there was something going on. There was more going on inside there than anyone. First thing we did was get him off of all the volume, obviously. And so then we went back to the caseworker and said, you know, we found this wonderful piece, of equipment that could really help him. You know, he's got more going on in there. They ended up transferring him to California so that they wouldn't have to, pay for the equipment. And he died six months later.

Kahran: Oh, wow.

Fran: And so that was like, okay. Okay, let's do something different.

Kahran: Yeah. Wow.

Fran: Or like. Or I remember another story where we had a guy who was, from China and had grown up in kind of a village and could just run free. No shoes, no, you know, no clothes. And he was just kind of that. And then his family moves here, very poor family. And, they lived in apartments down in, the soto area. And we had gone home for Christmas and it kind of destroyed their home. And so we had to go pick him up and take him back to the group home on Christmas day and kind of spend it. So it was just a lot.

Kahran: Yeah.

Initially, your interest was in documentaries. Um, and then you felt you're going to break in as producer

But I mean, obviously it makes sense how you may, like, have been considering other kind of careers, but, like, film just was what made sense and appealed to you.

Fran: Yep.

Kahran: and then you felt you're going to break in as a producer, and then what happened? Is it, like, did you film school, live up to your reputations? And then did you try and be a producer? Did you try and be anything else?

Fran: Yeah. Yeah. Initially, my interest was really in documentaries. And then I. Then I realized I probably wasn't going to make a lot of money at the time, that documentaries were not. You know, we didn't have the Netflix and all that that we do today. one of the biggest things that happened is that Kathy and I broke up. And so that kind of changed my whole world. My world kind of fell apart.

Kahran: Yeah. And in Vancouver, while you were in school.

Fran: Yeah.

Kahran: Oh, wow.

Fran: Right at the very end. Right. I was working, you know, I was going to school at seven in the morning and getting home at 1011 at night.

Kahran: Oh, wow.

Fran: And so.

Kahran: And then you had homework also.

Fran: Oh, well, usually I was. I mean, the homework was typically in the edit suite. Right. So sound editing or editing. And it was the year before they went digital.

Kahran: Oh, wow.

Fran: So I was editing sound on a steam deck flatbed, with. With the tape. And so you had to splice it and tape it. And so.

Kahran: Wow.

Fran: Yeah. And so I, was gone.

Kahran: You deeply understand the process.

Fran: Exactly. Which really, paid off. So then when I did start producing, I knew all of the jobs because I did audio, I did, you know, editing. I directed, I wrote scripts, so I knew all of the pieces. So I ended up kind of taking a diversion and then coming back. But by the time I got back to Washington, I was doing gig economy. I gave myself a year to not get paid. And so I worked on a number of, a handful of independent, feature films, shorts, as well as narrative or, ah, long form and so did various jobs.

Establishing yourself as a freelancer takes some time

Kahran: How were you getting yourself known? Like, you know me and like, I've now been in this journey for a while. A little while, right. My partner at the v has been doing it for a lot longer. Like, establishing yourself as a freelancer takes some time.

Fran: It does, it does.

Kahran: How did you do it immediately?

Fran: Well, I had a friend, my best friend in film school was this guy named Jay. And he's from Seattle. And so he knew some people that were already connected within the community in Seattle. And I knew I didn't want to move to LA. That just didn't feel like a right fit for me. So he and I were pretty much attached to the hip for a couple of years. And also I got a job, job working with, down in Olympia for the government. There was, they had a television department and so they would do like closed caption tv and then they would do videos for various, I remember I worked, I produced a y two k project because, you know, all the computers were going to crash and we were going to die. And, you come out of a.

Kahran: Breakup of ten years with this person you're deeply in love with, and then you managed to like score government contracts, establish yourself in a community as a filmmaker where you've never been before.

Fran: It took a year. It took a year.

Kahran: Wow.

Fran: Yeah. And I took a year off.

Kahran: Were you like a hustler? Is that how you thought of yourself? Or like,

Fran: Oh yeah, I could be persistent. I remember one of my first gigs, I was actually living in, michigan. So after film school, I went to Michigan a year and helped raise some kids and I moved them back where they moved, and I moved with them back to Washington. But there was a woman there that had her own production company and she was, she was also a lesbian. And she was just like intense. One of the most intense people you'll ever meet. And I went and did like an informational interview. So how did you get into the business? And she had a full on production company. She did, it was Michigan, so she did car commercials and all sorts of big things and pretty well established, but she just didn't get along well with people and kind of had, she was a little bit crazy and she used to have a full staff. She said, yeah, one day I just walked in and fired them all. And so she'd been working by herself for a long time. And so I ended up, driving back to my parents house, for 4 July. And I decided I would just stop in every weird little town and send this woman a postcard. And I would say things like, who brought your coffee to you today? You know, or, so did you have to go through all those, all those rough cuts yourself or would you like some help? And so finally, after, like, the 10th card, she, she called the house and was like, okay, I give up. She could come and work for me.

Kahran: Wow.

Fran: And so I got to work for her. I learned how to edit on, on a, It was the big thing at the time. I was going to say an ari, but that wasn't that. Anyway, so when I, by the time I got to Missouri, I had some other experience under my belt. And Jay was in Missouri. So then he and I got together and, one of his good friends did all of the multimedia m for the, wink Luke Asia museum.

Kahran: Okay.

Fran: And so John Jay and I became, the trio. We could, we could do, anything, any kind of short form videos or other stuff. And then Jay was able to raise some money and he, produced a couple of, short films and a feature film. And I was the first assistant director on those and the producer. So, yeah.

Kahran: Wow. So, when you say you're between the three of you, you guys could do anything, that means, like, you would come out, you could film it, you would edit it, you would produce it. Like, you would get it from start to finish. You guys were, could do anything.

Fran: yeah. I ended up buying a condo in Capitol Hill in the building where John had his studio. And so John had a editing suite. He had all the camera gear, all the sound gear, all of the stuff. And, the three of us just kind of hung out a shingle and we would pick up gigs here and there. And I would also pick up, gigs. I ended up out at Microsoft studios. I would do stuff. I, would do the annual gaming, halo gaming stuff. And then, at first it was seasonally. I was helping this guy produce political ads. Then he had just moved to Washington. I was on the first steering committee for the human rights campaign here in Seattle. And so started, the human rights campaign and was the dinner co chair for three years. And one of the guys, a, straight guy came in to, had just moved here from DC. And he was opening a West coast office for an agency that did political ads for democrats nationwide. And he hired me to produce some ads the first season. And then the next season he hired me for a little bit more and it turned. And then finally, I think, I don't know, maybe five years in, he offered me a full time job. And then a few years later, he and I split off and formed our own agency, and, we were partners in the media strategies firm. and then I took this other turn.

You went from managing people to creating content by yourself

Kahran: Wow. So you basically became an independent contractor again. Right. You weren't managing people at any point, so you went from having this, like, large team to then. Yeah, just kind of delivering, creating content by yourself. Did you think about yourself differently? Like, being like, a manager wasn't so much part of your identity.

Fran: It was, oh, I came out of the bossy, there's no question about that. And I've never had trouble delegating. well, that's. I think what I liked about producing is because then I was in charge.

Kahran: Of the whole crew, the whole project. I see.

Fran: And so it wasn't, I mean, yeah, Jay and John and I could go and do small projects together, but when we did the independent feature film, I mean, you know, probably had a crew of 50.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: And so, and then I was, I was a producer as well as the assistant director, so I literally was bossing everybody around on set all day. And so, it really came pretty naturally to me, all in all.

You came out to yourself when you were 16, right?

Kahran: And do you feel like when you introduced yourself, like, what would you say? Were you a filmmaker first, or would you, did you ever introduce yourself as a Catholic, like a queer woman or lesbian? I don't know. Or is that just never an introduction point?

Fran: Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. yeah, I probably a producer at that time. even though I also did audio and I could shoot, camera was always my first love. I didn't have the confidence in that department, but I also didn't want to be one of the workers. I want to be in charge of the workers.

Kahran: Yeah, yeah. But you also felt like, like, did you feel like you were trying to, like, be a more outspoken queer person when you were kind of becoming, like, dinner co chair and becoming. Was that not part of the.

Fran: Yeah, I think that I remember when I first walked into an HRC office, which I had never heard of the organization.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: And so that would have been. Yeah, it was after film school, and I walked in and I was like, what's this human rights campaign? And it was just a little bitty storefront kind of thing. And I walked in and was like, oh, my gosh, they're getting involved in politics to change things, to really make a difference. And I gotta say, ever since I heard Irva Chive speak, I watched her on CNN, and that was way before film school. And I think it was 1990 when we did the march on Washington, and she took the. If you haven't seen that speech, I.

Kahran: Don'T know if I have.

Fran: Oh, she was so smart. I had instant in love with this woman. she spoke with eloquence and just so smart. And I just got this. It was like an aha. Moment of, oh, the real change is in Washington. And that's how. And so that was always in the back of my mind, like, because when I came out, I was never, I was more appalled that people would think that that was wrong. And I was like, oh, this is right. This is, this is who I am.

Kahran: You never felt like, I mean, I felt that way for so long, right, that I felt like there was something wrong with me. but you, like, you never, you never kind of internalized those.

Fran: I did, and it kept me from coming out to myself, and I only saw that in retrospect.

Kahran: but you came out to yourself when you were, like, 16, right? It sounds like.

Fran: No, no, I didn't allow myself, to feel those feelings until I was 21.

Kahran: Okay.

Fran: And so I was really struggling to, that was not going to pop. I was having dreams in high school, but that was something I was not going to. That was not going to happen. And so when it did. Yeah, then I was like, oh. And it was an epiphany. It was like all these doors open, and everything started to make sense of my whole life where it was like, oh, it's because I'm not into that. You, know? And just made a lot of sense of why I struggled.

Kahran: Wow. But you don't feel like you had, like, years of, I don't know. I feel like it took me a long time.

Fran: They weren't okay with who I was, and then that was painful, but I, I wanted to prove them wrong, and I wanted to create change within our government so that we weren't treated as bad, I guess.

With human rights campaign, you affected change at home level

Kahran: so do you feel like you were, like, being motivated by, like, oh, I can do more. Like, you were kind of this growing sense of, like, you know, at first you were, you affected change at, like, one home level, and then you kind of was like, you know, then it was all these children, and now it was like, you know, I'm going to, like, I'm going to move policy, or was it just not really so much like that just worked out that way?

Fran: I think it was more like, I'm interested in this, and I want to get involved in creating change. I've always wanted to make things better and have a purpose. And look, with the human, rights campaign, I mean, that was a 20 hours a week volunteer job, and, it was a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun. It put to good use a lot of skills that I had in terms of organizing and growing a business, or not a business, but an organization. And I remember, I set a goal to double our revenue for every dinner and kind of butted heads with one of the people that is. That had been involved in the. He was a board of director, and he thought that there was no way I could do it. And so it was profoundly satisfying when he came to me afterward and said he was wrong. He shouldn't have doubted me.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: Yeah.

Sometimes I miss things because I'm being very literal, right

Kahran: Do you feel like you had different questions in your mind of, like, you know, I do things like this or, like, these are not things I I do, or just, those were never kind of like, like, you weren't like, oh, I'm a businesswoman. Right? So I don't get involved in, like, policy or, like, you know, I'm a film documentary filmmaker. Right. So they're like, this is the kinds of things I do. Like, just. I'm just curious. Was that, like, kind of a, like, even a way that's ever entered your mind, or is it kind of just a very foreign model to you?

Fran: Yeah, I don't think it was anything like that. In fact, I know that through the years, one of the challenges I've had to do is not be so literal.

Kahran: Yeah.

Fran: And so sometimes I miss things because I'm being very literal. And then, the other thing I have to do is give myself permission sometimes. But, for example, sometimes I can look back on the way I would think something was done, and then somebody points out a different way, and it's just like this clear aha. Moment where I can't even believe that I didn't figure that out. because I'm following a steadfast, like, tick, tick, tick, and not giving myself permission to veer.

Kahran: Yeah. You know, it's like when someone. It's almost like someone cheated. Right? It's like, you know, you thought the game had to be played in a certain way, and then someone shows you there was a different way to play the game, and then it's like, well, what the hell?

Fran: Totally.

Kahran: But it sounds like you. You kind of didn't have that reaction. You kind of be like, oh, that's amazing. Is that fair?

Fran: yeah, yeah, exactly. But. But I wish that I had a. Could figure out how work around sometimes. I mean, I think I do that in some cases, but there are other times where it's like, oh, how did I miss that?

Kahran: Yeah. Interesting.

What percentage of your time was spent in lobbying versus making movies at that point

And then what percentage of your time was spent in, like. Like, lobbying versus, like, making movies at that point? How else? Okay.

Fran: well, you know, it was gig economy, so when I had a gig, I was all in on the gig, and then in between, I could do this other stuff, the lobbying stuff or the dinner stuff. And it was a lot of the same skills. You know, the three dinners, brought to the dinners were Lily Tomlin, Howard Dean, and, John Waters. So it was a pretty big production.

Kahran: like, how you would just, like, call people up or say, like, I want to be able to talk to this person and then invite them.

Fran: I think we would have pick who our ideal three top three were, and then I think that happened on a national level.

Kahran: I see, I see.

Fran: As I recall.

Kahran: Wow.

Fran: but I did get to, you know, like, take Lily to her room.

Kahran: okay.

I feel like we should do a part two with your last saw, the third of your life

I feel like we should do a part two with your last saw, the third of your life, like, at a different point, because I feel like this is. You know, this has been really lovely. This has been amazing. Franny, I had no idea.

Fran: Thank you. I'm old.

Kahran: Oh. well, no, but I think it's also so cool that, like, you really have never, like, clung to an identity. It's just really interesting to me because I feel like I'm so surrounded by people who are so defined by, you know, like, something Fran and I talk a lot about is, like, if you went to kind of the top schools, whatnot, right? Like, that's such a big part of your identity. Right? Like, oh, I went to iit. I went to Harvard or something. And then it kind of shapes what you think of as what you think can be available to you. Like, oh, you know, I should be doing something that's of sufficient prestige because my family had sacrificed all these things for me to get to be where I am. it's just kind of interesting, right? Like, I just. You know, as you've talked about all these kind of different choices you made, it almost seems like those kinds of, like, fears or worries, like, they just enter your calculus as much. Or if they did, they were in a way that were subordinate to, like, you wanted to do this thing, and it was, like, what you needed to do to do it. You were gonna figure it out.

Fran: Yeah.

Kahran: And just talk to people, it sounds like. I feel like the biggest thing I've heard you is you just talk to everyone.

Fran: Exactly. Don't know how to do it. Yeah. Find someone to. I also think it's not putting people on too much of a pedestal or a deference in a way that it's like people are approachable. They've just got their own stories, they have their own journeys, they have their own paths, and we all get there. I think that, you know, I probably get the tenacity from my mother, and, you know, she's just kind of very dogged in her approach to life. And so that's part of it. I mean, to go from, you know, being a secretary and to a stockbroker, I mean, that's a pretty big deal for someone from Shady Grove, Mississippi. so I do, you know, have. I'm grateful for that tenacity. That's not always a positive trait, I can guarantee you.

Kahran: Yeah, but, I mean, tenacity is also like resilience, right? And I feel like that's, I don't know, like, that podcast I was telling you about a little while ago, they were talking about how usually that's what parents want for their children most of all is to help them, like, grow up with resilience. Right. So, yeah, you know, I look forward.

Fran: To listening to that, too.

Kahran: Okay, cool.

Divya: Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking.

Kahran: Our theme music and our audio engineering is done by Akshay from PTrPt Music. If you found this topic to be interesting or have other topics you wish we would explore on a future episode, please reach out to us at our website. Joyous studio.