Thinking on Making Better Decisions

Davya: Companies fail to realize they still have infinite possibilities

Divya: Now, when I'm consulting with people, often the value that I'm bringing is helping them figure out, hey, here are the questions you can ask yourself to figure out how you are thinking things and what is everyone valuing? And why are they valuing the things that they're valuing? Hi, I'm Davya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Kahran.

Divya: And this is thinking on thinking.

Kahran: That's funny. I was actually thinking about you while I was, like, lifting today. Cause I was, like, doing a, bench press, and I, like, I just. I've not been able to, like, like, hit the goal. My app has been telling me, and it's, like, very depressing about the way it tells you. It's like you have failed this combination of weights and reps twice before. We have now reduced the number of reps. And I was like, no, I will do it. was thinking about it because I think, like, something about how I feel, because I was like, why did I never work out before? And it's like, it was because I always wondered, like, the possibility of what could be when I worked out consistently was more exciting than what I perceived the outcome was going to be. So I didn't want to lose the imagination moment and lose the moment where everything is a possibility. And I think that there's a certain, I can't decide, like, the word that came to m mind was blissfulness. There's a certain blissfulness, I guess, to, like, having infinite possibilities, and I know that there's. There continues to be infinite possibilities, right. So, like, that, it's not. It's kind of a false, perception to think that, like, once you started to go down a path, that your number of possibilities are limited.

Divya: This is also one of the reasons why companies fail to make changes, especially the bigger they become.

Kahran: Can you fail to realize they still have infinite possibilities in front of them?

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: And, like, every choice becomes so loaded. Like, the more further down the path you go, the more loaded each choice is, right.

Kahran: I remember there was some, like, discussions in the pandemic, early in the pandemic, when, like, my sister's company had lost a lot of customers, and there was no, like, there was almost no one coming on board, right. And we were thinking about just chucking the entire onboarding experience, and it was just so much resistance. I remember Tristan, who's her CTO, had just joined at that point, and he was like, guys, there's, like, six people using it. Like, we could just start over. And I don't think we ended up doing it. Right. We ended up doing a very iterative approach because it was like, we didn't want to jar the experience for people who had started it. But, you know, in retrospect, it's nonsense. It's complete and utter nonsense. Right. But it's hard. I mean, even what we talked about last week, I think, or, I think it was a couple of weeks ago now, actually, or when I was running Vidya next and thinking about what to do. The fact that we had spent so many korores on content weighed on my mind, right? Like, I knew that we had built this content, and the content was this valuable thing in this organization, and, you know, finding some way to. I. It wasn't like I felt of it as guilt. It was like, this is one of my assets. How am I going to leverage this? Because I don't have that many assets, right. Like, I need to leverage the assets that we have now. You know, in the beginning, you had no assets except for the possibilities. But then once you have them in hand, I think this is exactly why it bothers me. Right? Because once you have them in hand, it's so hard to escape from that feeling.

Divya: But isn't there just sun cost fallacy?

Kahran: it is.

Divya: I mean, part of it is sunk cost fallacy. Part of it, I also feel like, is. So there was this thing, when we. When I was still, like, you know, in the point of decision of, should we end up working together or not? I remember having this conversation with my sister and honestly feeling very scared. Oh, but what if I leave everything that I know and I go do something completely different, right? Worked in a certain way. And, like, what if I don't work in that way ever? And she was like, see, but you are thinking of it as, like, you know, oh, I'm living in India, and now I'm gonna go and live in Greece. But it's honestly more like, you know, how to speak English, and now you're learning how to speak Korean. Nobody can take away English from you. You have that knowledge, and you have that information, and I'm not sure if that would be true for everyone at all times, for all decisions. But I think that that distinction is important. You're not going to forget how to speak English just because you learn Japanese. And our brain sometimes convinces us that a decision is moving to a different country rather than learning a different language.

Kahran: I give you that for sure. Right. I think that just, like, resonates with me when you say it. But I think the side that I'm thinking about from is a little bit different. It's like once you have, like, a mental conception of, like, say, like, what a tall building is. Right. Because I have some tall buildings out my window, right. But that will start to start to color how you think of what tall buildings can be. That's why I almost feel like having this kind of reminder that what you see is not what all of what there is. And I think having this notion in your head that there could be like, this, like, there's an ultimate version of a building, and these are just like shadow. Right. It pushes you to keep thinking about, like, well, how could this be better? I don't know. I don't know if it pushes you into thinking, like, reimagining what, like, the purpose of what a building is, and then if that. And I think that is actually kind of the most useful side of the thinking.

I think sometimes we confuse deductive reasoning with inductive reasoning

Divya: I also think that, like, this was a conversation I was having with a friend last night. but I think oftentimes when we are reasoning through things, especially when we call, like, you know, ourselves data driven or heuristics driven or whatever, we are confusing deductive reasoning with inductive reasoning.

Kahran: Say more.

Divya: so deductive reasoning is like, you know, one plus one equals two, and it's always gonna be two, because you can prove it. Inductive reasoning is, sun rises in the east every morning, so sun will continue to rise in the east every morning. and I feel like the, honestly, the conception of what is the ideal person, thing, company, project, product building, it comes from past data and not imagining free from what possibly could be, apparently.

Kahran: I'm curious what you would say. I think you would say that this is deductive reasoning. But, you know, when, gosh, Jeff Bezos, it really took me a second. I was like, who started Amazon? Apparently, I was just reading this in that I'm very slowly reading this biography of the Ido founder. It's kind of an autobiography, kind of the story of the company. And he talks about how, when Bezos was starting Amazon, that he read this line that the web is growing at 230%, sorry, 2300% per year. And when he understood that, he immediately got, like, flew to Texas or something, and he, like, bought a used car, and then he started, like, driving west. And like, as he was, like, this is like, because he was starting the company in California. And, as he was doing this, he, like, hadn't figured out entirely what would be the right thing, but he knew that there would be something you could sell online. And that something would be because this was creating a new, ah, channel where you didn't have to maintain the inventory in the stock. Right. And so he arrived at books and music and then quickly launched books and then music now. Yeah. Would you say that that was like deduction around like, oh, look, here's this data around, like, what?

Divya: I mean, I think that was a lot of creative thinking. Like, I don't think that he arrived at it through just like, you know, flat logic, because it's not like, you know, what is going to happen. But he asked what could happen. Yeah, and like, that's a subtle distinction. What's going to happen is more you're going towards a reasoning side. What could happen is like, you're ahead trying to construct something new, which is creativity, at least, like, just using that framework.

Kahran: That's so interesting. You say that when I do a lot of creative work, to me it feels like I am, there's a certain inevitability to it. So it's just interesting the way that you framed that, because I don't think about it like that. I never think about what could be with something. It's just like, this is the right thing for this.

Divya: Interesting. I'm not surprised, but say more.

Kahran: I think, like, there's a certain point, like, when I write poetry, there's a certain, like, point, where it just feels done. Right. And that's why I was telling you once, I think that, like, I almost never revise any of my poetry. Right. Maybe like a tiny bit. Like, I would say like one word for every ten poems, maybe, or even every, like, 30 poems, right. But like, yeah, yeah, it's like, I'll change like a couple of words here and there, and usually, like a tense or something. And oftentimes I, like, usually when I'm reading it, I'll remember that I was, like, upset about it when I was writing it. And then, like, it will still, like, not. And for example, like, in the book that I just published, I changed the end of one. Like, I changed three lines. And now every time I read it, I can, like, I hear the original three lines in my head every single time. It's like, it's funny because. Yeah, interesting. So, yeah, it's just like, it feels like. Like you're helping. I don't know, I think this is how I think about it. There's like, a certain inevitability to it that you're helping something be created.

Divya: I was recently talking about this with my partner about how I don't think that I have a clear vision, especially when, like, it's things of pure creativity. I just start and it happens.

Kahran: Yeah, but I feel like that's, that's the same thing as what I'm saying, right?

Divya: No, not really. It doesn't feel like I'm uncovering something. It's almost like I'm meandering through a forest, and I decide to stop and set up camp somewhere. And wherever I stop is wherever I stop. Like, honestly, the code that, you know, you gave the Michelangelo example of, you know, house sculptors bring out the sculpture. They just remove the parts that want the sculpture. Right?

Kahran: Yeah, for sure.

Divya: I relate a lot more with artists never finished. It's just abandoned.

Kahran: That's really funny.

Divya: so, like, I. It is not the same thing, even though, of course, we both end up finishing things. I don't think it's the same perspective.

Kahran: No. Yeah. I think that's also why I don't always like to get, like, sometimes it's such a funny and very small example, but, like, when I was younger, my mom would, like, want me to, like, decide really, like, small things, like, what should we eat? And, like, I wouldn't want to commit to it, because once I committed, then if we didn't eat that, I would feel more upset. But if I hadn't committed in my, like, if I hadn't. Right, if I hadn't, realized that this was the right thing, that one should be eating right now, then it's fine. But once you arrived at that, it's very frustrating. More frustrating.

Divya: Interesting.

Do you feel the need to chase a global maxima or do you not

Okay, so then I have a weird question. How does it feel to work together with me? Because I'm, I don't have that platonic ideal. Even when we have worked on things together, oftentimes you'd be like, oh, my God, I don't know where this is gonna, what this is gonna look like. And I am just like, huh? It's gonna look fine. I'm sure it's gonna look okay. I'll do something, and I'll spend some time on it, and it will look fine after some time, but it's just like, it's a very different approach.

Kahran: Sometimes I can't see it all the way till when something is done, but I can see it a bit better. So I think that's what happens in those situations is I end up shortening my perspective on where I'm trying to get it to.

Divya: Okay, say more.

Kahran: Yeah. So when I feel like I don't, I can't, like, see the end of the journey. But I can see, I will be able to always see some milestone that I can help bring this to.

Kahran: So then I just operate for that milestone. It's like an in between platonic ideal, if you want to think about it that way.

Divya: Interesting. Does it feel disorienting?

Kahran: No, because I've had to do it in so many contexts in so many different ways, because the world is like that.

Divya: But isn't the world, like, almost always trying to move towards a platonic ideal of everything? Like, the perfect person, the perfect son, the perfect daughter, the perfect wife, the perfect husband, the perfect company, the perfect team member, everything.

Kahran: Because those. I don't feel as much about, like, that those exist, I guess.

Divya: Okay.

Kahran: It's like, I feel like those are, like, the people are the variables. Huh?

Divya: Not the constants, as in, like, no one could be the perfect child.

Kahran: Yeah. Whereas, like, things. There are other things that you could aspire to being, because I guess things have to be perfect for their situation. and I think, like, there's no, like, a perfect chair for me here in Bangalore is not going to be the same, even for myself. Right. A perfect chair in, like, I don't know, Copenhagen. Right. Or, like, a place that's dramatically different, weather or climate. Right. But that doesn't mean that, like. Like, still, I'm gonna have to create an example here that will be very tough for harvesters.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: But, like, still, when I'm, in, like, maybe a space, like, even this there, right now, I'm working in kind of an l shaped room, right. And I spent a lot of time just, like, thinking about the flow of that room, because it feels to me, this always happens to me, right, that I will move furniture around until it feels like things have arrived in a state that feels right. And it's not like. And I guess this is maybe how I would, kind of answer what I was struggling with earlier. I think that it feels like, almost like a local maxima, right? Maybe it's not. I don't feel a need to kind of chase the global one, really, but I feel a need to get myself to at least a local one.

Divya: Do you not feel like the need to chase a global maxima, or do you feel like a global one does not exist?

Kahran: I feel like if you let yourself start chasing, it never ends. So I would rather. So I almost enjoy more drawing the constraints in some way and then saying, well, here's my box. Now, how will I.

Divya: So, like, I would say to that, that very dangerously sounds close to the evolution model. Sameer like, the way you're talking about this, right? Like, the way you are saying, there is a chair which might be perfect here, which wouldn't be perfect in a different condition. It's almost like there isn't a perfect chair. There is just a perfect chair for now and then that could be applied to people and situations. Like, there isn't a perfect meeting. There's just the meeting that you can have now and how good that can. Like, you know, how best that can get.

Kahran: I think that that actually feels pretty right to me. M. so I kind of just feel like right when people and I. So, like, if you're in a perfect place, if you're in a perfect mindset in a perfect place, like, there is a great sort of, way interactions can happen, right? And a lot of times people are not in that place, right? People are like, they're stressed, they're tired, they're right. And then those interaction interactions, like, have a, less likelihood of being as maybe, positive or creating as much utility as they would if people were in a more available space. so it's worth striving after that ideal, right? And being cognizant of, like, when am I in a place that is compromising my ability to achieve that ideal?

Divya: Do you feel like the whole point of trying to strive to the ideal is because you are not sure what you would move towards if you didn't have that ideal like that? It's just the direction of your vector?

Kahran: I never thought about it like that. maybe, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how much, like, overarching personality goals, I guess, are, like, how much they actually manifest across different things. I don't know. to share another example, I was, listening to this podcast, of a mathematician, a couple of days ago, and he was talking about how he was very shy growing up. And then at one point, he moved to France, and he realized that shy people, are not as able to make friends and do well in life. And he decided he would not be shy anymore. And he just like, right? And then over time, he changed his personality. And so he was like, yeah. So from people who knew me from when I lived in Japan, it was like, they were a little bit like, this is strange, but then this is just like, so I do think there is some, you know, obviously there is some truth to that where people get like, or even you were telling me, I think, a couple of months ago, that you, like, or, sorry, a couple of years ago you decided that you become more funny and then you did.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: once you have an idea of your kind of direction that then you can have this vector that is pushing you, across different aspects of your life. Right.

Divya: I would have actually articulated it as sometimes we get stuck in particular directions and we can just decide that we don't have to have that. Like, this is a sort of side story, but so my closest friend and I, we have been friends for like 15 years and we haven't had the kind of friendship where we would, we're very warm and loving and caring and kind towards each other, but we don't joke around too much. And right around the time when I decided I want to be funnier was also the time when we decided, I think we should have more lightness in our friendship. Recently we were having some very deep and serious conversation while both laughing and mocking and the thing at the same time, like, oh my God, life is crude. Hahaha. It really is crude. And like, we weren't, we weren't being like false about it, we were actually finding it funny and it was just really interesting how much that had changed. Or like, you know, seeing for example, my mom like now start to work out and like, you know, start to take care of her body, which like in India, most people do not, they don't have a culture of like, you know, learning to take care of their body. Especially as you grow older, people are like, oh, now you just accept that old age, your body is going betray you. I just feel like a lot of this is your brain can get stuck in certain directions, but if you decide, then you can change it. Which is why I think, like my, like normal thing is, there is no ideal, just decide from a moment to moment basis as new data comes in and you are able to make a better decision. Not the best decision, but a better decision and better being fits your constraints more appropriately.

You also don't even feel like there's an ideal version of yourself

Kahran: So you also don't even feel like there's an ideal version of yourself.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Oh, that's so interesting.

Divya: Like, I used to have it when I was much younger, but I think that like sometime while I was still in college and undergrad, it went away. I was just like, oh, I could be like, you know, I took the switch from physics to design and I could be a physicist. Sure. I could also be a designer. I could also like, I could live many lives.

Kahran: That's interesting because like, something's like, like for example, I was late to recording our podcast today, because, something came up right where. Where I needed to go and, meet. Meet someone, right. And I didn't really feel bad about that. Right. Like, I felt like, you know, these kinds of things happened. But when I realized that I had forgotten to upload our podcast, then I was like, this is not. I forgot to upload last week's podcast, right. So, like, this is not, there. I'm just like, ah, it just makes me feel. I'm like, oh, I wish I was better in my systems. I wish there's things. I just remember things better. It's not my ideal version of myself. but you don't feel that way?

Divya: I mean, not never. Of course, I do feel the feelings. We had a conversation last week where I was like, I am a really horrible person. but I think that, like, unless I'm in a very dark place mentally, it doesn't happen to me.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: Like, for me, honestly, it's more of a sign of, oh, you are probably moving slowly inching towards a depressive state.

Kahran: That's so interesting. I was talking with one of my family members a week or so ago, and it was interesting because, she was sharing with me, like, all of these behaviors she wished other people would do, also in our family. Right. And it was just. It was interesting because I usually don't think like that. I mean, sometimes I do, but not, like, frequently where I'm like, oh, I wish, like, this person would change their personality trait. Like, for some reason, my. My pushing of idealness doesn't go to. To that.

Divya: Have you read this book about transactional analysis? I'm okay. You are okay.

Kahran: No, I've heard a lot about transactional analysis, too, and I, Yeah, no, I have not read this book. Tell me about it.

Divya: so it's basically like, there are four quadrants, right? So I'm not okay. You're not okay. I'm not okay. You are okay. I'm okay. You're not okay. And I'm okay. You're okay. Right? Where it's like, whose existence do you feel like is bringing up bringing the misery in your life? So, for certain people, it would be like, my existence is bringing misery. Everyone else is fine. And for some people, it would be like, everyone else is not okay. I am okay. Oh, like, I'm perfect. I'm fine. If only all of these other people didn't do the garbage things that they are doing and didn't indulge in the garbage behaviors that they are indulging in. And then there are people who would be like, I'm also not fine. You're also not fine. And they're all playing out our patterns. And according to at least, like, this psychoanalyst, who wrote this book, he was like, you ideal. Like, if you have process to things, then you would arrive, at like, I'm okay. You are okay. Like, you're gonna do your things, and I'm gonna do my things. And misery is, like, you know. Yeah, inevitable, kind of.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Like, of course, cognitively, these things are much easier to accept than emotionally, but, yeah.

A lot of conflict resolution starts with awareness, I think

Kahran: So I feel like you had more experience with me in, like, working with a diversity of different kinds of companies. and I'm curious, like, how much do you feel like that kind of, whether it's awareness as kind of maybe the first level, and then kind of being just cognizant, maybe about it. Like, one is being awareness of yourself, and one is kind of being cognizant of, how is this happening in the culture of our company? How much do you feel like those things have mattered, to the kind of company's ability to execute or operationalize?

Divya: Have they mattered a lot? Have people been aware of it? Very little.

Kahran: Interesting. So sometimes they have situations that work well without realizing.

Divya: Yeah. I mean, so, one of my friends, she, was in a tech company. She was, like, one of the founding team members and was, a part of the team, I think, for eight, nine years, or maybe ten, like, somewhere around that work. and I think she is probably the one person who I have talked to who had a lot of models for interpersonal conflict resolution in teams and for, like, just figuring out things, getting people on the same page, and, like, a lot of it. like, I don't know if you have discussed the ten hundred thousand thing on the podcast before, but, like, that's a model that I've gotten from her. There are other things that I've, like, learned from her, and a lot of it just starts from building awareness in people. But I don't think that at least the teams that I've worked with, most of the times, they don't have those things either.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: Now, when I'm consulting with people, often the value that I'm bringing is helping them figure out, hey, here are the questions you can ask yourself to figure out how you are thinking things. And what is everyone valuing, and why are they valuing the things that they're valuing?

Kahran: Yeah. Then I think about it. Like, I think a lot of the companies that we, kind of were chatting with earlier this year and last year, because people had had conflict, people didn't know how to resolve it. And then the results of that after time become very strange in organization because you have, like, sets of a company that don't really work well to each other. A lot of assumptions about what people's motivations are. It's just, it becomes a very crazy scene, to try and unpack.

Divya: I also think that, like, a lot of times, people don't understand the value of aftercare. Like, I'm borrowing a term from the bdsm community, but, like, people really, really don't get the idea that you can, quote, unquote, resolve a conflict and still not feel okay because there is some friction that has caused abrasion on your bond with the person.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: And you need to do something to, like, ease that friction. Like, you need to do something to make that pain go away, even, like, just resolving the core issue is not going to be enough and not in a bad way.

Kahran: I feel like the thing my father has been very good at, in a lot of the companies he has had is creating spaces and expectations for people to behave in other ways. So, like, like, there's always just been this tradition that, like, there will always be, like, like a TT tournament happening in the office at all times. Somewhere there's, like, just so many TT tables, right? And then, like, Aditi, which was his first company, always had, like, they had an annual day which, like, you were meant to bring your family, and then they would have, like, the adity day that was, like, a party to, like, drink. And, like, there was just, like, many environments that you would see people behaving outside of their just, like, classic work environment. And I think even when I worked in some of the satellite offices, like, I worked in the London office, and the London office just had this really strong culture that we all went out for drinks every day, or nearly every day, and it got crazy. I mean, I, you know, I was at a certain point in my life where I could have two large whiskeys with my boss, but for other people, it was kind of crazy. Cause what are you gonna do if your boss is having two large whiskeys? You're gonna have two large whiskeys to do, you know, and it's hard to do. It, means you're a little bit drunk when you're going home to your family. but it made you see everyone in a certain. Right, like, after it happens day after day, it's not like, oh, this person got drunk. Like, everyone gotten a little bit drunk, everyone's on something kind of stupid or like spilled their drink or their chips or whatever. I don't know. But when I think about it for myself, and I'd be curious if you, if you also think in that way. I always end up thinking a lot in terms of like structural incentives and how, like how, how is the environment being created around people expecting them to work in a certain way? Because I always just come from that. My starting kind of lens, if you will, is that kind of place where I'm like, well, you know, what incentives have we done and what behaviors are we expecting? And therefore is it crazy to imagine this person is going to behave in a different way when everything, the structure around it is expecting them to behave in that way?

Divya: I feel like I have overlap with that, especially like if I put on my game designer cap, then I start thinking, okay, how is the system sort of incentivizing people? Like, what motivations are intrinsic, what motivations are extrinsic and like, what behaviors that would lead to. But honestly, I also think internally, I try to come from a place of personal agency, not personal responsibility. I think responsibility is always of the system, but I think agency can be on every single person in the team.

Kahran: That's so interesting. It's funny because I keep so much agency for myself, but then I very often, I think I, especially when I'm working with people I like, forget about their agency. I don't know. Or rather I take the, responsibility to make the path that I think is the right path, the easiest m.

Divya: I mean, I don't know if this is the right spot to sort of close our conversation on, but I think something that I've been learning recently in my life has been not to make decisions for other people, like, have some humility and like, not make choices for other people thinking that, oh, this is in your best interest.

Kahran: Yeah, no, I know. When you say it like that, obviously it feels very obvious, right? Like that. Like, yes, but I think what, what I was trying to say is like, how are you thinking through the situations you're creating for your people? You know? And I think that there's this, this ability for people to be like, yeah, right. You can make your own choices. And it's like, well, can you, like, how much have you enabled for them to make their own choices? You know? And I think, yeah, and I think that responsibility kind of starts to come to you as you, as you like, manage people, as you employ people. Like, how much are you enabling them to have agency.

Divya: No, that's a very fair point. It's very easy to sort of, like, push it. It's one of those things where, like, oh, women should speak out in the office more. And it's like, well, sure. But is the thing that is stopping women empowerment women? Like, let's really question that. no, that makes sense. Yeah.

Kahran: Yeah. Okay. See, look here also, we've arrived at the same conclusion from slightly different points.

Divya: Indeed.

Kahran: Yeah. But I think that's what keeps it so interesting. I think when you can find someone who, like, you know, you have enough overlap with that, you're able to understand where they're coming from, but then you have enough differences that it's always interesting to understand their perspective. It's just like. It's a. It's endlessly entertaining because there's endless possibilities.

Divya: Yeah.

I think talking about some of these things in more specific will also be interesting

And on this note, I think we can say bye, and, we can have, like, maybe more conversation around this idea of, like, coming from different perspective would be interesting at some point in the future.

Kahran: Yeah, I think talking about some of these things in more specific will also be interesting.

Divya: Yes. Okay, let's talk about that sometime.

Kahran: Okay, bye. Talk soon.

Divya: Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes, and you can find a link to it in the show notes.