Thinking on Kindness vs. Niceness

There's this thing called the civilizing process. What's that? Um, yeah

Divya: I had generally clubbed polite and nice in the same category, which is like, you're not necessarily ready to lose m social capital for your actions. And I still think that, like politeness would do that. Hi, I'm Davya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Kahran.

Divya: And this is thinking on thinking.

Kahran: So you were saying you had a story.

Divya: I mean, it's less of a story and more of a fun fact, but. So do you know that police, polite, policy, political, they all come from the same root word and they come from police, like, which means city, like metropolis.

Kahran: Do you know about the civilizing process?

Divya: No. What's that?

Kahran: yeah, there's this thing called the civilizing process. and it was this notion that like, as societies, modernized, and we started to behave in a more civilized way towards each other, that there were certain things that started to come into effect. So the part that I'm remembering and I think stuck with me the most strongly is that one of the things he found is that in certain areas there would be a regression. So, like in the american west when it was the gold rush, and all these men went out and there was these really men, like heavy towns, like murder was very common, like theft, right? Like all of these things that were marks of a less civilized society, increased in scope, right? And then what they found was that the thing that brought the civilizing process, or in their case, in that was women and religion. And when women and religion came that then, you know, murders would come down, larceny would come down, et cetera. so it's just interesting to me how those words are all connected, right? Because in a lot of ways those are the words of yes, in polite society, you know, we are, we do police ourselves. of course, we also have police and, you know, those are all the things that lead to society. Right. To.

Sometimes it's the kind thing to do. Sometimes it's not the nice thing

Yeah, I feel like this was a great leading because we were thinking about talking about, this notions of niceness and kindness versus politeness, or really all three of those together. I kind of had, when I'd written it down, I'd been saying that breaking up is the kind thing, is the nice thing to do. and that you were correcting me and being like, no, no, breaking up is not the nice thing to do. Sometimes it's the kind thing to do. it kind of just gave me pause for a second because I was like, yeah. I mean, yes, all right. Well, but I think to, associate, like what is, whether the right thing is the kind thing in your mind or the right thing is the nice thing in your mind? I think the right thing is the.

Divya: Kind thing in my mind, yes. The connection between kindness or. I don't know if it is right or wrong, because, like, those in many of these cases would be in the gray zone. But I would say that, like, kindness is more long term. It's probably gonna be more beneficial for all parties involved. Like, so, for example, and this is a very touchy topic, but when people opt for euthanasia, or when people opt for, like, putting their pets down, when they are in end of life stages, they're doing it out of kindness. It definitely does not make them feel like a good person. Like, niceness makes them make someone feel like a good person. Kindness can often feel like you're not the best, you're not the nicest person around, but it's kind because in the long run, it's avoiding pain for the other person.

Kahran: That's really interesting. I wonder if there's a distinction there between, like, sometimes the kind thing to do. it's the thing that, like, is taking. Taking, a cost out of the system, or it's like, taking the payment that has to be paid. What I was thinking about was like, and I'm not sure, I think because you were talking about euthanasia, right. That. Yeah. There's like, this notions of, like, you know, if you. If you are in a farm setting or whatever, right. Like that. An injured animal, that you would. I don't know. I would think I was watching some stuff about the american west or something, and I guess we were just talking about it. Right. That you would, like, kill an, animal rather than, like, leave it to starve. Right. If it injured itself in a way that couldn't be saved. I don't know. Like that. No, like, the term was doing a kindness. Right?

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: And I guess it is because, like, there it is, kind of. I mean, I don't know. It depends on whether you feel like killing something is a burden, I guess. I think we talked about a previous episode that maybe most. But for most people, right? Like, yeah, like, we. I think we were talking about the context of firing, actually. But, yeah, for most people, like, firing, no matter how, whether it's. You're doing the right thing or not, it's still a burden. Right. It's still you. Like, I think I shared a memory I still carry of, like, the first time I fired someone. Right. And so I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting. But, yeah, sometimes you do need to be able to help people, to be able to let go or move on. and I guess that kind of is a kindness. Of course, when it's like, you know, euthanasia, that's a very final way of moving on. But I.

Divya: But I was just thinking about, like, it's very. At least in my life, it has been always fairly grey when I have tried to be kind, whether it is to myself or to another person. So, for example, a lot of times you'll hear things like, oh, be kind to yourself. And that generally comes in picture when you are doing something like, oh, I messed up somewhere in life or I made a big mistake. And be kind to yourself. Don't beat yourself up. Right. Like, I m don't know how that is related, but as you were speaking about it, I was just thinking, like, sometimes it's taking an emotional cost, like, to a part of yourself or on a person that would justifiably be okay with saying, I don't want to take this cost, and you still do an act of generosity and take up that cost.

Divya: That feels a little bit like kindness. Like the example that you were giving of people putting, you know, animals who are basically fatally injured out of their misery. It's like, I don't need to have some animals blood on my hands, but if I could relieve them of their misery, then maybe that is worth it.

Kahran: Yeah, I mean, you know, it becomes more dicey. Like, so. So all of my family before my dad, was in the indian army and one of my uncles is visiting us right now and like, he's told us stories about, you know, like, fighting in the war and, in the 1971 war, which, India had with Pakistan. and yeah, I don't know. It's just interesting, right? Because I do think it's like, it does. I've never, like, killed anything other than a fish, or I guess many fish over the years, but one really big fish that I remember I had to like hit with a bat, which is kind of a crazy thing to imagine. I'll come back to my stream, I'll tell you the story about the fish because it's crazy. But, my dad and I were fishing together on a small boat, maybe a 15 foot boat, a zodiac, I think, as they're called, maybe 10ft. and we brought on a fish that was probably, maybe 4ft. So it's like a big fish. And the thing is, with a fish that big, you actually keep a metal baseball bat on the boat because you have to hit it on the head. Because if it's, like. Right. It can just knock stuff off. It could knock one of you off if you're, you know, kind of catches you with a wave. so, yeah, so that was. I mean, those. I think there was two fish, but one of them, I think maybe the first one that I really hit, like, because it is kind of a thing. Like, you hit it like, blood comes out of its mouth. Right. Like, and you kind of. Yeah. So, you know, I think doing that for more and more, kind of like. Like, just like life forms that, you know, I think that, like, the more humanoid they are.

I think people switch to politeness and niceness to save face

Right. The more we connect with them and more they have a face. I think I read there are some interesting research there. Right.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: I think, going up towards, like, actual humans that you might be doing that with. It's just. Yeah. You know, I think kindness is. It's an interesting word for it. haunting words in some ways.

Divya: Yeah. I also think that, like, a lot of times, people switch to politeness and niceness to, in some weird ways, like, save face. It's a little bit like when somebody says, oh, how's your day? Which is a much more gentler example than, you know, killing someone. which is what we have been talking about. But, if you think about someone saying, oh, how is your day? And you reply, oh, my day was great. How was your day? And internally, 50% of the days, if someone is asking you that question, you did not feel like your day was great. You had probably a mediocre day, or you had probably a shitty day, right? Like, it's not in the, oh, it was all right. Or, I'm doing well, like, those are not the right answers, but those are the polite answers in most cases. Because if you ask someone, how was your day? And someone says, oh, I just found out that my pet is really sick, and I might be fired from my job. And you, you would be like, hey, man, I'm just sitting behind you in the restaurant, or I'm just, like, behind you in the grocery line. I don't want to know this. Please don't tell me this.

Kahran: Would you say, that it's not a nice thing to do?

Divya: I don't. Honestly, I don't know how to have the distinction between niceness and politeness. I do know that, like, in my own life, I've had to unlearn niceness and politeness to learn to be kind.

Kahran: I don't know. I think when we originally, or at least how I remembered us talking about this previously, it was more of like a dichotomy between nice and kind. And I feel like politeness is a, like, you can be polite while being kind. Like, politeness feels to me like a, how you do something and not so much a, ah, what you're doing, say more. So. Well, I was just thinking that, like, there's a, Like to. Unfortunately, now our killing examples are really stuck in my head. or. But maybe, Okay, well, I'll do a quick animal one and then, come back to what you were saying about a nice day. So I think, right, like, let's say, that, you know, something did happen to, like, maybe a horse and you're on a long journey, and, like, it would be. The polite thing to do would be just do it respectfully. I don't know what that would mean in that context, but maybe it would mean if the horse was close to someone, giving that person a time to be with their animal before it became time for them to pass. There's ways you can do things or to give your example of in a casual setting, if someone's asking how you are. I think, unloading all of your burdens is not a very nice thing to do. Right. but again, you can do it in a polite way.

Kahran: even if you're not willing to ask for permission, you can kind of give foreshadowing. You can be like, oh, I really need to rant for a second or something. You can give the moment. You can easily give the person maybe a moment to escape. and then I think if I was to say, how could you do it in a kind way that was polite for that kind of scenario, I think a kind thing to do would be to, Like, maybe it's not really. You don't need to be talking, right? Like, there's not really. You don't have to feel like you make conversation just because, like, it depends on what the circumstance would be, right? But maybe, like, maybe I dropped an orange and you're handing me my orange, and you hand me the orange. It's like, okay, that's it. You know, like, you know, we don't have to create an interaction out of every interaction. And so maybe if that was, like, the message you felt like communicating, you can again do it in a polite way. In a less polite way. Right. I was just in New York City where people do that in a less polite way all the time. Like, there was a street that was closed, 50, 8th street. And we were supposed to be going to a restaurant on the street, right? Literally, like, maybe not even 50 meters away. But apparently it was climate week in New York, and so these, like, dignitaries were arriving. They were going to something else further down the street. And people were just. There was a large crowd of people, and there's barricades on the sidewalk and barricades in the street. And I, like, kind of thought, like, I was like, well, if you just knew we were going to this restaurant, like, it would be fine. So I, like, went to go talk to the police officer, but the guy, one of these guys I kind of said, excuse me to, was like, you know, just like, kind of like, what the hell do you think, man? Like, like, we're just standing here like fucking fools. Like, they're not like this. Look at this guy. Like, this guy's like, apartment is close right there, right? Like, they're not letting him through. And the thing is, until everyone had arrived, so eventually, I did go talk to a different police officer. He was like, yeah, we got told to close the street. It was 40 minutes ago. We're hoping it's 20 more minutes, but who knows? And it's like, it's really interesting to see because some people in their motorcades, we were speculating who they'll have, like, six cars, like black cars, two police cars, and then an ambulance. It's like, who gets to travel with an ambulance? so we observed this for a few minutes, and then Gaurav and I were like, listen, it's time we just go somewhere else for dinner. and that man was not. He was a little bit impolite, but he was not unkind. You could just cut to the heart of the matter. And then when he realized I wasn't being a dick about it, he explained more like, yeah, he became a little bit more polite. anyway, it's a long way of saying, I feel like politeness is an orthogonal axis.

Divya: Interesting. I had not thought of polite versus rude.

Niceness helps you build social capital, but politeness doesn't

I had generally clubbed polite and nice in the same category, which is like, you're not necessarily ready to lose social capital for your actions. And I still think that, like, politeness would do that. Like, politeness helps you build a social capital. Niceness helps you build social capital. Kindness doesn't always help you build social capital, but, yeah, in the way that you are describing it, there would be a rude and a not rude way of doing everything.

Kahran: Well, I don't think it's at odds, actually. Right. I think it's just how there's certain things that we're supposed to talk about. Right. And I think those are the nice things to talk about. Right. So. Right. So, I. But I think you're right, because they're. They're engaging in the. In the game society plays. They're ways of building social capital. Just one of them is a way of building social capital in the what? And the other one is a way of building social capital in the how.

Divya: so I have been, reading Ray Dalio's book, principles.

Kahran: Yes, I remember.

Divya: And he talks a lot about basically being fully honest with the other party. So, like, if something is going wrong, you're not supposed to hide it at all. Oh, something went wrong. You bring it to the table, and then the rest of the team tries to also figure out, how can we do this right. So, like, mistakes are not punished, but hiding information is punished.

Kahran: Yeah, I think I actually read this part. I got the, app on your recommendation. it's entertaining because it gives you nice little, like, whenever you feel like picking it up, you can take bite sized amounts and. Wait, so how do you feel? You feel like. So, in that case, the polite. Go on.

Divya: So, I would say that, like, at least for me, it feels, like, on the kindness side of things, where this is for anywhere, everyone on the team's long term benefit, and it's for the culture's long term benefit. But it might not seem like the nice or the polite thing to do. Like, often it would raise people's defense mechanisms. I would say, when somebody is coming and telling you, oh, this thing isn't wrong. But then I also think that, I mean, this is slightly orthogonal from, like, just this topic, but it's more sort of larger scale, where I feel like we have a temptation to look at things and interpret them in a certain way, and we forget that, like, our interpretation is based on our context and our ideas and, like, how we have lived through world. so, for example, very recently, I was talking to my sister, and I just asked her this question. Like, would you think I'm, like, a little bit too much in terms of emotionality? And she was like, because I've always had that thought, not so much anymore, but, like, that lingering sense of that's how I see myself is still there. And then she just looked at me and she was like, you know, I don't process people that way. Wherever they are, emotionally, is how they are. I don't conceptualize them as too much or too little. I don't think like that. Like she said, I'm paraphrasing her. But she basically said something along those lines and what was interesting to me, Washington. She has a completely different model of processing this information than I do. Like, it's me who is thinking, is this too much or too little? And I'm not saying there aren't going to be other people in the world who process it as too much or too little, but, like, there are also going to be a lot of people like her who are going to be. I don't think, like, that who you are is a circumstance and not a problem. Right. M so I also feel like when I think about, like, Ray Dalio and how he sort of helps his team build things, it's almost like that looking at people's actions in a different light. Oh, someone is telling you your fault, not because that's a bad thing or, like, you know, because they want to put you down, but it's because they want to improve together with you. I feel like niceness is something which, like, socially, we all agreed upon. Okay, this is the quote, unquote nice thing to do. But, like, there could be other ways of arriving at similar outcomes or arriving at harmony in the system. Let me put it more that way.

Kahran: Well, I think it's not nice to tell someone something they can't change.

Divya: Huh?

Kahran: And then I think it kind of depends on how big you draw the box of, like, what is possible to change.

Divya: I mean, okay, you see someone and you tell them you should lose some weight, they can change it. It'll probably be good for them. Also, is it nice? Is it kind. Is it polite? I don't think it's any of those things.

Kahran: probably not. I mean, again, you know, with the data we have, yes, it seems like it is none of those things.

Whether it's nice depends on how we have perceived the potential actions available

Okay, so, like, if a baby has food on itself, right? It's not. It's considered nice to, like, help, know, clean it or, like, you know, help, like, make someone aware that it has food on it. Right? Now, if. If someone who is, like, older, especially, like, you know, someone who's, like, kind of a senior person, has, like, some food on themselves, like, it would be. It would be less polite or less nice also to, like, draw attention to it, right? Like, you would, like, either maybe discreetly do it or just, like, kind of let it be, ignore it, right? They have, like, a state, and it's fine. so now I think what. What happens is that we draw a box differently, right? So, like, with a child, it's like, oh, they can change their clothes. Like. Like, in. You know, there's extra clothes available to it. So. So the potential actions are. Are very accessible. Right. There's like you're drawing attention to something that could be rectified. So it's not like an unkind. It's. I'm using the words too, too loosely there for considering we're having a conversation about them. So, it's not, it's nothing. Not a nice thing to do. It's not, mean.

Divya: Yeah. It doesn't make you feel like a bad person.

Kahran: Yes. Right. Whereas I think, again, because of culturally things, just to do that to an older person is not as nice because, they don't have that the way we would at least just at first glance think about the set of actions available to them. It's like, well, are they going to have extra clothes in their handbag? Probably not. Is there someone to help them change immediately? Probably nothing. So I think that's what I was saying. Where I think it. Whether it's nice or not depends on how we have perceived the potential set of possible actions available in the situation and therefore whether we're prescribing something that is possible or not possible.

Divya: I don't. I'm, Not.

Kahran: I'm m like trying to chase some crisp eating here. Like, I'm going to be able to put some clear definition by the time we're done today.

Divya: So, like, of course there are maybe like other variables as well. maybe there are other words that we could be using. I am not particularly sure, but, This is a side story, but in college, like, amongst a group of friends, we have these two friends, and recently not these two guys, but another friend from the group was talking about how one of the guys, you always knew where you stood with him. He wasn't a particularly nice person, but like, you know, he would be rude, he would be sometimes mean, but you always knew that where you stood with him, if he liked you, you will know it. If he didn't like you, you will know it. And there was this other person who always felt so inauthentic in some ways. Like, he was very, very nice. Like, it was extremely nice, but you could just never tell what he's actually thinking or feeling. And I'm not saying that you have to be always wearing your heart on the sleeve or never wear it outside, but at the same time, I feel like there is something like, especially as I've grown older, there is something that I've been appreciating more about people showing authenticity and kindness rather than just being nice to not hurt my feelings or whatever.

Kahran: That's interesting because I feel like that starts to go into what I think we talked about really early on. Right. But, like. Like, when someone feels like an us versus the them, and then, like, also where. Where, like, where signaling, huh? It was, I think, our first episode, where signaling, can start to make you feel like. Like if it feels like they're part of too many groups or like that they're like. Right. Then it starts to feel, like, kind of shifty. I don't know. When you were talking about your second friend there, I kind of was feeling like wondering if that was some of the feeling.

Kahran: Yeah, right. But then I don't know if that's. I feel like that maybe is a different axis. Right. Like, that's.

Divya: I mean, a lot of times we take niceness as a proxy for how people should feel about me.

Kahran: Oh, that's interesting. What do you say more?

Divya: For example, this is also true for both of us. We know what is the right thing to say in a situation. What is going to lead to, like, you know, a favorable, reaction from the other side, or even how to mold the words that we are trying to say in a way that would lead a favorable reaction. I'm not saying we are the best in the world at it, but we are, like, on the right side of the mean in this situation. Yeah, right. like, both of us have, due to whatever, confluence of our life effects have been. Like, when you are part of multiple minorities, you learn to navigate life through a lot of niceness.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: and so I would say niceness is also adapted that way. But I also think that it prevents you from, like, being able to authentically, like, see yourself or see the other person. You want to have a constructed image, and you want to maintain that constructed image in front of other people. And that's why you're being nice. Like, you as a generic you here, not always, not fully, but there is always that underlying current of it.

Kahran: I think sometimes the nice thing to do is the less scary thing to do. Right.

When you know culturally what to do, it doesn't take as much effort

I think I mentioned this in one of a, ah, document that I was working on a few weeks ago, and you wrote a comment where you're like, what is, like, I think. I can't remember what I said. Maybe pack, follow the pack or something. Right? And I think, like, I think that's. It's the same kind of thing, right? Where when you know that culturally, this is what people do, which is what the nice thing to do is, then it doesn't take as much. You don't need as much like, truth to be able to get yourself to do it.

Divya: Very true.

Kahran: Okay. No, do you know the book less?

Divya: No.

Kahran: Oh, so I just finished reading it.

Breaking up is sometimes a kind thing to do, but not a nice punishment

well, okay, the example I was going to give you, and maybe I shouldn't ruin for our podcast listeners as well, is, well, I guess I can tell it in a way that's a pretty small scene, but the title character, Arthur Les, has been stuck somewhere, and, it is an old japanese, ah, establishment, and the door is 400 years old and will not open. However, the, the walls are made out of paper and they are painted paper. And the people are telling him, just punch your way through the wall. and you will be able to bake a hole. And this paper is very easy to replace. You shouldn't. Don't feel bad about it. And, it's just really interesting because he really goes into emotional, ah, turmoil because he's just like, I can't destroy this thing. It's really, really beautiful. And he's like, smash it with his fists. and I was just thinking about how you kind of understand because of everything that's happened, why he's in that point and why it's so hard for him to destroy it. But I think it's kind of related to what we're saying, right? Like, to do sometimes the right, like the kind thing to do in that situation. Is that right? He has all these people on the other side who are worried. They're trying to like, is he gonna be able to get out? Like, he's supposed to be having this intimate dinner. They can't even serve the next course. And, But right. To do the not nice thing, to, like to do the. Yeah, it just like, it takes something from you, you know, you have to have a little bit more strength of will in that moment to, like, muster to do. Do you like my example?

Divya: No, that is actually a very good example. That's also like a very good articulation of, like, it requires more chutzpah and it requires more emotional labor. Like one of those two things is going to be required. You basically almost need to give away a part of what you have thought of yourself as. Right. Like, I'm not the kind of person who says these kind of things to people because I don't want to be seen as XYZ.

Kahran: Yeah, it's actually niceness is sometimes an excuse. Right. You're like saying, oh, I don't want to do it because it's not nice, but actually, it's because I don't have.

Divya: The energy m or you don't want to take out the cost that it would require, because, like, for example, you.

Kahran: Don'T want to spend the energy, maybe.

Divya: For example, the initial example that we started from, which is, like, breaking up is a kind thing to do, but not a nice thing to do. Not only is it not nice to the other person, you will also suffer a lot of consequences. You might lose a part of your social network. You might lose, like, you will have to tell everyone about it. Everyone is gonna have some thoughts. They will all alter their image of you, and sometimes in favorable ways, and sometimes in unfavorable ways, but almost always in uncontrollable ways.

Kahran: I was in a relationship for a long time, and then when we broke up, my ex ended up leaving me for someone else. And then it took me a long time to realize that most of our mutual friends just don't know that part of the story. And they're like, guys, how'd you not put it together that he was dating someone within a few? But, like, obviously, because I moved to india right away, and so a lot of people were in the US, and it's just like, yeah. You know, like, obviously that that was not the part of the story that. And people don't want to be, like, rude about, or, and I think that, like you were saying, they don't want to, like, take on that emotional burden, of kind of investigating further. So they kind of people just made their own assumptions.

Divya: Yeah.

Have you ever been in a professional context where you had to choose between niceness

Have you had, like, have you ever been in a professional context, on crossroads of niceness and kindness, where you had to choose one or the other?

Kahran: Yeah. For me, in a professional context, actually, it's not as difficult. I'm not sure, why, but I think that's why I had that distinction about politeness so readily available to hand, because I think, I find that, like, there's a lot of times that you can, I guess I think, like, two examples kind of come to mind. don't think we've discussed in detail on the podcast before, but, I did choose to shut down video next at a time that we still had about, you know, I think, six and a half months of Runway. and I took that choice because I looked at just, at the culture of the company that we had built. I mean, obviously, there's also issues around the straight, sort of, like, customer, customer acquisition and the amount of actual revenue we were getting per customer. But I think those, a lot of times those can be surmountable, but I think what we had built was unfortunately something which was, it was a weird ethos. The company was about 1415 years old, and every year it had been able to get money from the same investors to kind of stay in business, but it wasn't able to generate revenue. And what it had done every year was pivoted. not every year, maybe some cases every two to three years. and at that moment, when I announced the company shutting down, I called in all hands, and I had previously, formed a team that was going to be running the application that we had built, that we were going to be spinning out into being its own company. And so at the point where I was announcing that the company was going to shut down, I also was that this team was spinning out, and that they would be their own company, but they had already been functioning as a team for some time. And I think in a lot of ways, it was like, it was a, it was a kindness, I think, to. Because there were people who were stuck there and kind of had been there, right. And that some of them have been there since the beginning. And, you know, I think it's hard for some people to. I don't know. You know, you've put a lot of. To have to acknowledge the sun cost fallacy, basically. And I think, in doing that, I feel like a lot of people are at better outcomes than they would be if we were still kind of like fighting along, because I don't think the data would support that. We. I don't know. It's hard to predict what could have happened. The other example I was thinking about, though, is kind of an interesting one. I had hired someone, to be my chief operating officer, and also to be my head of pedagogy. And I, I ended up letting him go in a moment when I realized that I had, like, had lost trust, in the way that he was operating. And I think that was an interesting thing because I think. I think actually it was the nice thing to do, and it wasn't the kind thing to do. Right. I think the, it was the nice thing to do because it was what was like culturally kind of expected. Right? Like in a corporate environment, right. When people see that you have lost trust, you know, the rest of the leadership team is kind of. Right. It's the, it's. But I think that in some ways, the kind thing to do would have been to have pushed on it harder, a lot harder. Right. Which would have been, like, to really push on. Like, you know, where was it? Where were our expectations? What are the outcomes that we have achieved? Where. Why are we in this place? Right. And I don't know. I mean, I think in that case, it's interesting because one of those events actually, like, those events are about six months apart. so I ended up letting my coo go. And then about six months later, it was when I initiated the process that would shut down the company. And about six months after that, we ended up shutting down. And I think, I was a lot more exhausted at the time that I let my coo go. I just. I had a lot less, ability to, push on things outside of where I could kind of push. Right. There was a certain set of things I was being able to kind of put energy into, and I had for those, and there were some other things I needed to kind of push on, but outside of those, I just, like, there wasn't that much space. whereas later, it's about six months later, I had a lot more space. I, think part of it was, that just. I was able to kind of, like, consolidate and just reduce how much, like, chaos was going on. once I had a little bit more of, control over the situation and then was able to have more space to be like, oh, you know, now I can make decisions, in a less reactive way. And at least for me, I feel like a lot of the times I'm m making decisions that are, you know, the status quo or, you know, not. Or what we might be, you know, saying nice in this conversation, or coming from a more reactive place. they're coming from the time periods where I haven't had the mental space to be able to sit down and unpack and say, what is. What is driving me to feel this way? What is driving me to want to do this?

Divya: Yeah, no, I hear you. It's very interesting because, like, in many cases, one would think that firing someone cannot be like, it's all the same. So there was this, one team that I had sporadically worked with over a long duration in bits and pieces. And I had always taken their behavior as being very kind. And it took me a long time to sort of realize that they were just being nice because they didn't want to face the difficult conversations. Like, when they decided to sort of say that, oh, we won't work together anymore, instead of saying that we won't work together anymore, they were like, oh, right now we don't want to work together, but in a couple of months, we are definitely gonna come back. And then we would talk, and we were really friendly friends with each other, like, however one wants to call it. We would talk about it and the reaction would be like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Things have been so busy, but I definitely, definitely want to do something together. And then they just wouldn't have, they would say that, oh, I'm gonna come to this meeting. But then they would flake or stuff like that. And it's very, it slowly sort of was heartbreaking in some ways, because it was like, oh, we have had a years long relationship. You could, like, you could just do me the kindness of saying bye. Yeah, we can't work together anymore. and I think that, like, there is another team that I was consulting with till last, year end. And after I told them that, I don't think that I wanna, like, you know, I don't think that I wanna do this anymore, guys. Like, I was feeling particularly burnt out, and they were like, oh, okay. So why don't you take some time and, like, as we are growing the team, why don't you, like, you know, maybe consult with us on the product, on the design? And it was really so lovely that even after these guys decided to pivot, we still are in touch. Like, I consulted with them for, like, you know, three, four months, and then we are still in touch. We still talk to each other, and there's just this, like, because they never. After they said, oh, we don't have money anymore to pay you for consulting services, I don't think we can continue on from the next month. It just was, like, so clean and almost, like, because they owned up to it. It just felt so kinda.

Kahran: Yeah. I mean, I wonder if a lot of times, the kind thing to do is the honest thing.

Divya: Yeah. And I wonder if, because it's the honest thing sometimes it's also about acknowledging our own faults, and maybe we are being nice just so that we can also protect our own image in our head.

Kahran: I do like this. I don't know if you, if, you know, you had, like, an hour or whatever to think about it, but, if you like, if you also kind of, like, this notion of that, like, like, the what? Right.

M. M. Bennett explores the interplay between kindness and considerateness

So, like, what you do is. Can be, like, nice or kind, but how you do it is polite or, or, I don't know, I feel like rude is too strong.

Divya: it's, I mean, impolite is a word, but I feel like impolite. Does not communicate the emotion very properly.

Kahran: It's like, it's like, are you gonna take that? Put the extra energy in the. To meet the person emotionally where they are, you know?

Divya: So maybe a better word could be considerate or inconsiderate. So, like, you could be kind and considerate, and you could be sometimes nice and inconsiderate. I don't have to punch someone down just because I'm saying something negative to them.

Kahran: Interesting. In that book, actually, there's another example of that. The title character, again, is a writer, and he's a know, dated another very famous poet. And so he is, like, in these circles of. And so he's talking to this other writer, and the gentleman's like, you know why you never win any rewards? he's like, it's because you're a bad gay. And then the title character is, like, very taken aback by this. Right. And it's interesting because it's like, he's kind of being nice. Right. Because, like, he and Arthur, les even like his. Because you are privy to his mental dialogue, he he's like, he feels compelled to say thank you for it. For being told that he's a bad gay because of the way it's, like, told to him. M. But it's not very considerate. Right. Like, it's. It's. It's kind of like, it's a nice. Right. Because he's like, oh, you know, this is why you don't win award shows.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: And that does the same. Like, kindness, even though it could, like, sort of almost mask as that.

Kahran: Yeah. it's a good book. You should check it out.

Divya: Okay, I'll check it out. But I feel like a lot of these notions of, like, interplay between kindness, honesty, authenticity, niceness, politeness, considerateness are, I think that a lot of conversations that we have been having have been about how we navigate world and the conceptual models that are inside us. And this feels like exploring a new dimension that we haven't explored before.

Kahran: I think it's really interesting and related to the one you mentioned a few weeks ago and we should come back to. But, like, how our ability to have words to describe things, shapes our way to think about them. So maybe in our next episode we can talk about that.

Divya: Yes.

Awesome. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking

Awesome. I'll see you next time. Bye. Bye.

Kahran: Bye.

Divya: Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes, and you can find a link to it in the show notes.