Thinking on Designing for the End

This week, we talked about building products which have a lifespan

Kahran: Hello. Welcome to this episode of thinking on thinking. My name is Karin Singh. Hi, I'm Tifair, and, we've decided to try a new format with our new season, where we're going to give you intros, for each of our episodes. So, this week, we talked about building products which have a lifespan, which means thinking about when the product will no longer be of service, whether that means because of changes in circumstance or changes in the product or the market or the audience. We talked through a couple of different, digital products, some physical products, and then thought about, why do people seem to avoid that kind of conversations and reach some kind of interesting conclusions, from both the world as well as our own personal experiences. We hope you enjoy this week that's like, did you know it's cultural, whether when people do rock, paper, scissors, whether they do rock, paper, scissors, shoot? And I never knew this until I moved to other countries. Do you not know about rock, paper, scissors?

Divya: I don't know about shoot.

Kahran: Oh, I always learned it with shoot. You go, rock, paper, scissors, shoot, and then on the shoot, you indicate which one you did.

Divya: No. Rock, paper, scissors.

Kahran: Yes. So it's cultural.

Kahran: I must say, I did not quite think we would make it to a second season, but I felt like, to me, it was kind of a frivolous idea at first when we had the idea for a podcast, and then, of course, as we unpacked it, it became less and less frivolous, and it's become something really interesting, and I think it's very fun to record, it's fun to listen to. but it's very cool that now we have a second season. I feel very pleased about it.

Divya: I don't know if I had a clear idea of when would one season end and another season begin, but I knew that, like, we would probably be able to do it for a long time, because I suspect that, like, we have had, conversations and interesting conversations, and I would. At least in my experience, our conversations have only gotten better over the years. Over, like, the months, not. Well, it is years now. Not multiple yet, but, But, like, our conversations have only gotten better. So I just felt like, okay, I think even if we start recording it, they will only keep getting better.

Kahran: I think that makes sense. That seems like good logic.

Divya: If you thought that it wouldn't last forever, how long did you think we would make? Like, how long did you think we would make it for?

Kahran: It's funny. In some ways, I think this question is tied to the question you were asking me.

Uh, on the podcast, we decided not to publish because of expectations

on the podcast, we decided not to publish, which, which was, what are my expectations of the podcast? What were my expectations? And, you know, have they been met? it's interesting. I think I try to, avoid disappointment sometimes. So in order to avoid disappointment, it's better to not set really high expectations or really oftentimes set expectations at all. I don't know. I mean, I think I was like, oh, this is something like, worth investing energy into, but not one wherever I needed to do. Like, not the amounts of energy where I needed to do a lot of for thinking. So I think, in some ways, the way that you encouraged us when we started the podcast, where you were saying, hey, let's make sure it's not a huge burden on us, and we're really kind of, like, reducing how much time we need to spend editing, reaching how much time we need to be spending prep. So it's a relatively small thing, and I think that is just really clever, because at least how I think about it, there's some amount of discretionary energy I have to put into things. But then, otherwise, if I'm going to make a serious commitment, I want to think about it and make sure that do I have the time and space and mind space. But, I think we did a good job of carving this into being within the energy, or at least for me, the energy I had available. So it didn't have to be a huge decision. It felt like a relatively small decision. and then we've kind of organically made it a little bit, I think, deeper and better as we've gone along.

Divya: I can relate to this. So, I was talking to my partner recently about working out and how, if you want to get into working out, a good metric is, out of five workers for four, you should still feel like, oh, I had much more energy to give. Like, and as someone who is a beginner, often times the tendency can be, oh, I have to give it my all. But you just can't operate at your hundred percent, because if you expect yourself to operate at your 100%, you're just gonna end up being in a position where you're drained out most of the times. And, like, that was something very insightful for them, because it's like, whoa, okay, I hadn't thought of it like that. and it was really like, I don't think that I still follow it always, but I still think that, like, in creative work, it has come m easier to me. I want to think of things as, oh, what would be sustainable in the long term.

Kahran: That's really interesting. I've been trying to work on not saying that I realize it's my catch word, that I was going to. No, I. Well, the part that I think is interesting is that the way I feel like that kind of behavior is just. It's so prevalent in different ways. Right. It's like this notion that, like, oh, like I'm doing something I think is going to be hard, so I better make sure it is hard. Otherwise, my worry was for nothing or something. I don't know. I think that's at least where I came from in some ways on that.

Divya: I think that, like, one of the insights my sister had sometime, like last year or something like that was. She was like, sometimes I just make myself anxious so that I feel like this thing in front of me is important, rather than it being the other way around. That this thing is so important that it's making me anxious. And I started noticing that I also do that sometimes where, if I don't have an agency over something, and I'll just worry myself to death, basically, even though there's nothing that I can change. But just worrying makes me feel like, oh, I'm doing something. We have also talked about this.

Kahran: Yeah, I feel like. I mean, I understand that, but I feel like that's slightly like a different thing also. Right. Like worrying. I feel like. Yeah, like you're saying. Right. It lets you. Lets you feel like you're doing something without actually doing anything. but that notion of making yourself anxious to make it seem more important to yourself is kind of interesting. Do you feel like. Was she saying, like, she does it consciously, or she realized it was a subconscious thing she was doing?

Divya: It's just a subconscious thing, right? Like, your brain automatically goes in those loops and patterns type of a thing. Like, for example, this is maybe, like, rounding back to the topic we were supposed to talk about today. I feel like, one of my friends and I were discussing how a lot of the thought patterns that we have become maladaptive over time, and then there is such a high cost of trying to change them. And just on an even sort of little more zoomed out level, it would be way easier to just think of everything as, oh, this is not a part of my personality or, like, not a part of who I am, but something that I am temporarily taking on. Almost like, clothes in your wardrobe rather than, like, parts of your body. So, for example, let's say people say, oh, I'm a people pleaser, or I am someone who's an introvert, or I'm someone who's an extrovert. And then sometimes those words become the categories, that you sort of confine yourself into. Right. And, like, it could be very, like, it could be, I don't know. It would be much easier to say, oh, when I was in college, I was an extrovert. Because there are a lot of different people here, and I just want to socialize with everyone. That doesn't have to be the rest of your personality. Maybe the first few years of your job, you really don't want to be an extrovert. You want to just focus on certain things, and then maybe you want to be an extrovert again. Right? Like, you're starting your own company, suddenly networking is a big deal, and you want to be much more extroverted. And neither of those have to be a, moral stance one day or the other. I'm not saying, like, malleability would be easy, but still.

Kahran: Well, I do feel like the extroverts are, at least in that particular example, they are far more likely to take a moral stance and be like, you should want to talk to everyone. Which I feel like. I never feel like introverted people are as much trying to push extroverted people into situations. Do you know what I mean?

Divya: M. No, I don't feel this. I think you need more introverted friends, because, like, I have introverted friends who will look at you very judgingly if you are someone who's partying or being very social all the time with a little bit of, why can't you just sit down and enjoy your own company? What is wrong with you? And in extreme circumstances, a little bit like, what kind of trauma have you gone through in life that you don't like your own company so no judgment exists?

Kahran: That's pretty funny.

A lot of people just don't design thinking that way

Well, there was something you had mentioned earlier that I thought was a good tie to this notion, but I lost the moment, so maybe it's okay. So, I think it was right before you were talking about your sister, actually. you were talking about how you see people when they start something new, like, working out. I think was their example that they'll throw themselves into it so much that then it kind of becomes exhausting. I think in some ways, I think that is kind of an example of what we were going to talk about today, which is this notion of, how do you design things, knowing that you have a finite amount of energy, knowing there's a finite amount of time where the world will be like this and frankly, there's probably a finite amount of time that the solution as designed, whether it's a product, whether it's a service, whatever it is, or even, like, it's a behavior. Right? Like, there's a finite amount of time that behavior will be appropriate. And a lot of people just don't design thinking that way. They don't design thinking that there's a finite amount of time where this should, should exist. And I just find it fascinating. Like, I don't understand why. At least to me, it seems like this is a big, gaping hole in the way people think about things.

Divya: It is. I also like, I wonder if you've talked to people about, like, ending things. I have talked to startup founders when they are working on something and ask them, oh, so how long do you think this solution would be viable? And they're often taken aback by it because, of course, they know that solutions that work from one stage will not be easily ported to the next stage. But it's such theoretical information, practically, they don't want to think about it. Practically, they want to feel like, no, everything's gonna be viable forever, and we are gonna make it happen.

Kahran: You're so right. You're so right. I wouldn't, is it like the bias of, like, is it like, really to, like, a sunk cost sort of bias where it's like, I have put all this energy into it, it must be valuable.

Divya: So, of course, I don't have too much information about this, but I feel like a part of it is also just neurologically, we are wired to despise change, especially if something is in a good state or rather in a working stage. We don't want to change it, and we are wired to not change it.

Kahran: Tony, you and I were talking about credit cards right before we came on the podcast, so that I was telling you about how my credit card really doesn't work for me in India, but it's just the switching costs. Feel mentally too high to even broke the subject. I'm just like, ugh. and yeah, stuff like that, you know, there's no lifespan to them, right? You signed up for a credit card, it's yours for life. They have not thought about that product. And, like, saying, okay, you know, how are we going to take you on a journey of your initial? I mean, you can. It does exist. well, do you think it's something that you would, like, want to bring into the products that we and services we build? Like, having this notion that there's a death or, like an end and span to, how we build things.

I started using headspace somewhere around 2016. And I was a subscriber to them until 2020

Divya: So one of the, like, as you were speaking about it, I was just thinking about when has been a, good buy experience from a product been delightful for me. And I don't know how it is now, but. So I started using headspace somewhere around 2016.

Kahran: Okay.

Divya: And I was a, subscriber to them until 2020, mid, I would say, or, somewhere around that time. So. So, you know, like a good four or five years. and I really loved the product, but at some point, I just started feeling like, I don't feel the need for this product anymore in my life, which is, I would say, like, you know, a very good spot for any wellness product to be that, like, you know, your customer no longer needs you. So in there, I sort of closed my subscription, and in there, there was a small questionnaire. Okay, why are you leaving? You know, why, we are sorry to see you go. Why are you leaving? And then I selected, one of the options was that I feel mentally calm enough that I don't feel like I need head space anymore. And then I chose that option, and there was such an encouraging message that, oh, we are so happy that you have found yourself in that state, and we would love to have you, like, you know, back again. But it was just super encouraging. They were like, oh, we are happy to say bye to you, basically. And honestly, that message convinced me more than anything that if at any point, like, meditation again becomes harder for me, I would subscribe to headspace again.

Kahran: So you feel like. And now maybe like, using, like, a different lens. So when you. When you look at that experience as a. As a product designer, like, it feels to you that someone has thought about the fact that we will have customers exiting and some. So some of those cases, we will have customers exiting for reasons where it doesn't warrant, you know, reactivation sort of attempts.

Divya: yeah.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: Yeah. And they have actually thought of that as a success case for them. Like, it's not just that they have thought of it as a case, but they have thought of it as a success case for them.

Kahran: What gives you the feeling that they've thought of it as a success case and not just as a,

Divya: Because they didn't try to guilt me into it. Like, I recently removed my account from some dating apps. In their advertising. They always say, designed to be removed or find your person, remove us. Like, you know, something like that. But there was no thought that had gone into, why am I deleting the app? And is it because I've found someone, then what should I get?

Kahran: Yeah, that's an interesting notion.

People often focus too much on the first sign up, which is important

I was actually chatting a bit with, with the gentleman I mentioned a few minutes ago who I had lunch with. and he was his, the company he works for is in the loan servicing business. And what we were talking about is that their average loan size is rs700, which is, you know, not even $10. Like the. When you do loans that small. Right. Like, the transaction costs become a significant amount of the, of the loan. Right. So it pushes up the perceived interest rate to be quite high. But a lot of these people don't have other options. But what I was asking him is, how do you move people as they have different life stages and, you know, their life circumstances change, how do you realize and move them across? and he was saying that actually, like, that kind of modeling didn't really exist in the company for a long time. Right. They were much more focused on, what is our right market? Are you that market? And then the notion that people would come in, basically the first signup, and the last, whether you trust the data from the first signup or the last sign up. And they prioritized first sign up for a long time. And now they've started to realize that actually, it's the last sign up that is really the most important and that we need. And understanding the trajectory is also important, but it doesn't seem like they've yet been able to reach that place, I think. Cause a lot of what you're saying is hard. You build all these systems, help you identify what is my right target market. And then when you realize that either your target market ages as they have a relationship with you, or that people you dismissed, could become part of your target market, especially if you give them, like, pre active activities that can bring them in that direction, it's very hard. If that wasn't your mindset initially, if you were in a mindset where you were like, oh, you know, I'm filtering out, or I'm segmenting and focusing. You know, you didn't use those.

Divya: I also feel like that is very true. And I also think that for whatever reason, that has become the ethos of how people make products.

Kahran: Yep, I think you're right. There's always more people. Just filter out these ones and get to the next customers.

Divya: And even if you do. Right, like, I don't think that people, people focus so much when they're designing products on, the onboarding experience, because it's almost like taking the dating example again. It's almost like people just think the first date is all that matters and anything after that doesn't matter at all. And honestly, anyone who is in a relationship, which is like quite a significant portion of the world's population would be like, the first meeting can be whatever it's actually the subsequent meetings and how you are able to find a fit in another person's life and how they are able to find a fit in yours. That's what matters. But I don't think that, like, when people are constructing products, they get it.

Kahran: Yeah. That mercy actually was story you were sharing a few, a few weeks ago about how you consulted for a company that was looking at, their, engagement numbers, their daily engagement numbers, and seeing like, I think, what was it, like, 20%, sort of like daily engagement as a success, but then not thinking about the fact that those kinds of, those users would just get burned out on the experience and be like, why am I spending so much time on this app and uninstall it after a week or two?

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Yeah.

Do you think this kind of thinking is coming from bad goals and metrics

But now I have a question. Do you feel like this kind of thinking is coming from like, bad goals and benchmarks and metrics and so people are going after vanity metrics, or do you think it's actually like this refusal or kind of fear, almost of like, like being like, oh, I'm going to build something which has a finite life.

Divya: I feel like a large part of it, at least philosophically, is that we, at least from my perspective, that we don't deal with end of things.

Divya: I don't think that when we are starting our company, right? Like we are thinking, oh, how long will this thing survive for five years, ten years, 15 years, 20 years? And like, that is when both of us are people who have moved on to different things quite frequently in our careers and have been happy with that decision.

Kahran: You know, that reminds me of this story. I actually was, chatting with someone last week, I think I maybe mentioned to you, and she had been the founding director, I think, of something called the membership project that was trying to help local news, figure out, what do you charge for? When do you have subscribers? And she was the director for two years, and then there's someone else, and they're quite close. And so they made the decision, that after four years, the membership project shut down. And, you know, their findings and whatnot still online. People can tell it, but they designed it that way, that it would be a limited span and that they had a limited period to do the work and then at the end of that period, that they weren't going to try and stay relevant forever. They wanted to be relevant for this snapshot. It really struck me because, like you're saying, right, I very rarely hear people, be able to conceptualize in that way, much less execute in that way. To, kind of understand. That was just fascinating. It's interesting.

Teri, you want to change how brands build connections with their audiences

I, you mentioned when we were starting the company, though, a couple of minutes ago, I was thinking a little bit that I feel like this tendency towards believing there's always more customers and there's always the next person, and you can just filter out the bad customers and focus on the right audience. In some ways, that's really what drove me, I think, in, in seeking you out and, you know, in, in kind of going on this journey. Cause I just feel like it's a way. It's not there. It's not a good way to do marketing. I think in the long term, you end up treating people. When this happens across a thousand different companies, and 10,000 different interactions at, a society level, you start just treating people like they don't matter as much. I don't know. And I just don't like the way it doesn't help you form deep relationships with brands. It helps you form shallow relationships. And I think that is just not nice.

Divya: I feel like now that we are talking about things that humans don't like to think about, another thing that is almost like an undercurrent in what you said is it's very difficult to sort of acknowledge to yourself that I'm trying to do something that has moral or ethical or societal level implications, and I'm trying to shift something there. Like, people love to tell the story of that. And of course, there are the Elon musks of the world who are like, I will change everything, but will they have question mark? but to be very honest, there is this feeling of, like, you know, yeah, I would love to say that, oh, I want to change how people do marketing, but it feels a little bit scary to say that. Not that I don't have the conviction or that I don't feel like it can work, but still, there is something weirdly, Yeah. Scary about it.

Kahran: But if I, if I reframed it as I want to change how brands build connections with their audiences, does that feel as scary?

Divya: It does.

Kahran: Oh, so it's not a semantics thing. It's the idea.

Divya: It's not a semantic. Yeah, okay. It's a, It's a little bit like, I was having a conversation recently with someone about, there's some list that I don't even remember what it was. And instead of choosing freelancer, I chose leader entrepreneur, in that list. And I was like, that is a scary switch for me. Like the freelancer consultant. That felt wrong, so I chose the other one. But, like, the leader entrepreneur also feels a little bit like, you know what the feeling is? Like, fear is maybe not the right word for it. It's like when you are a kid and you're wearing your mom or your dad's shoes, and you're just like, the shoe doesn't fit. It's that feeling.

Kahran: Do you feel like you would feel differently if it was like, you, you mentally were like, oh, I'm going to be a leader for five years or tenure? Like, you had that kind of plan for yourself. But does that, does that change how you feel about it?

Divya: Oh, I don't, probably. It doesn't feel as heavy. You are right.

Kahran: I think there's a niceness to, designing things so that they do have a lifespan, you know, like, whether it is like we're talking about right now, like, like life goals or like products, because I feel like it gives, it takes away some of those unknown unknowns, like, when you have an indefinite future, right. You don't know how long it could go on for, but we at least have some idea that this is till here. I've heard about this trend in weddings now that people will do, like, vow renewals. And I told Gaurav about it, and he was like, yes, we should do it every five years. I don't know. I think he was kind of kidding. But it's an interesting notion, right? It's kind of like, yeah. Understanding that maybe your partner, you don't have the expectation your partner will be right for your entire life, and you only expect them to be right for five years or ten years, and then if they are still right, we carry on.

Divya: There is something very relieving about that.

Kahran: Interesting you say that, because I know some people who would hear that and be like, oh, my God, I need this stability. Like, I can't like it. Terrible to imagine that you would. Like, what if your partner walks up in one day and says, no, this isn't working for me anymore. You'd always have that undercurrent of worry. No. You know, that doesn't resonate with you as much, though.

Divya: No, I feel like, and I think this is a conversation that we had much early on, but I think, like, we also, I also said this to you that you also need to give yourself the option that we might not work out with each other for forever. Right. Like, that this company might not be the last thing and, like, you know, at some point we might not be compatible as business partners. And, like, that would mean that whenever, until you are working, you are one present in the relationship and you feel like there is high compatibility. And I think those two things, like the presence of the other person and their understanding of, oh, this is the right fit for me, is way more important than me feeling like I don't want to be alone, though, of course, I know different people feel differently about this thing.

Kahran: Yeah. And I don't know, I was, thinking for a second whether if you do a lot of product design, it's one of those things that you start to just think in that way. Like, if it is a manifestation of product design thinking, I'm not really.

Divya: I think that. I think that way and so I can bring that in other areas also.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Because, like, one of my biggest qualms with product design is that versus, like, why I like making games more is that there is a, almost limited box. Like, I don't like games as service products. I don't want to work on those because it's almost like, oh, I wanted to make something, I made it. We'll do some bugs and like, you know, bug fixes and all of that, but I don't want to think that this thing that I'm creating is going to be relevant forever.

Do you think setting goals changes how clients feel about it, though

Kahran: Do you think you have to. Do you think it changes how clients feel about it, though? Like, have you ever tried to have that conversation with any of your clients? Does it change?

Divya: Yeah, it almost never goes well.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: And I don't know if it is because I haven't learned how to have that conversation or it is because, like, most people feel insecure about things and they are making them. So this idea that, oh, it, even if it is perfect and we do everything right, it still might have an end date. Like, I don't know which one is the. They don't. What about you? Like, how do you feel about that? Does it make you more scared when there is an end date or does it make you feel happier?

Kahran: It depends on how much I have energy I've spent into it and, like, how much anticipation I have for the end date. I don't know. I never love when, like, things are over because I feel like there's, like, some hole in my life, especially if it's like. It's like something I've been working on for a long time. but I really. I find it very hard to work on things if I don't have some sort of end date, like, even, like, really small things. Like, I was meeting. Meeting my physiotherapist today, and she works under a different physiotherapist, and so we never. Neither of us knew how long the sets were gonna be. Cause he kept yelling them from across the room. And I was, like, finding it so exhausting. Yeah, I don't like that kind of stuff. I don't know. I mean, I feel like you are much better about the other kinds of end things. Like, for example, I was trying to write, poetry every day for a while. I think I talked about on an earlier podcast, and I didn't. I know I don't like it if I feel like I have a goal, right? So, like, if I said it was for 20 days, like, I don't like that. But then I haven't been able to figure out how to set a good, Maybe I should. Yeah, I haven't been able to figure out how to set a good time period. I guess I don't really know even what to call, I guess, a good set of goals.

Divya: Is it because you don't know what variables to play with? Or is it because every time you try to play with a variable, it comes with, like, additional, almost like, psychological costs?

Kahran: I think it's because I like to have a big goal and then have sub goals. M and then deciding what is an okay stopping point. It's somewhere in between, and then I don't have an appropriate goal at that level, if that makes sense. I can give you some illustrative examples. If not.

Divya: Yes, exactly. Would be better.

Kahran: I think, again, we may have mentioned it earlier on the podcast, but I was trying to do Duolingo for a while, and I didn't have a good goal of what I was trying to get to. And eventually, I just found it hard to sustain over a while. Because if I'd had a goal and then I could have said, okay, I'm here, and now I made it, right? So maybe I'll stop, and maybe I'll come back to it. Maybe I'll set a new goal, right. But that I just found really difficult. and I think for me, with new things, like, I don't know, for some reason, it comes to mind, I've tried to learn surfing several times, and my goal there is, like, standing up on the board. And, I didn't quite realize how difficult it could be to stand up on the board. And now I don't feel successful in my attempts to learn surfing and doesn't drive me to come back to surfing very much. I would love, in an esoteric way, I'm like, yeah, I would love to be able to surf. Am I willing to put the time and energy in? Not really, because it feels too hard. So I think there's some happy medium where you can set goals that are neither too hard nor too easy and then be able to say that this is the lifespan that I am doing this thing for, this lifespan end.

Divya: But it could also be okay to say, this thing isn't for me.

Kahran: Yes. See, that's, that's the problem with how I'm setting my goals, right. I'm not setting goals that, like, that you can lose and still make the goal. These are only winning goals. Ah.

Divya: okay. Like, for example, when I tried to learn how to surf, within two sessions, I was like, I don't want to do this. This is not for me. I do not enjoy being punched by the waves, practically.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Like, like the 10 seconds of, you know, looking cool to other people. Like, is not worth it. No, thanks. the course was minimum supposed to be three days, and I just took two days and I didn't go the third day, and I don't care. I was just like, yeah, I'm gonna relax in my hammock because this is just not for me. So it's just like, I don't know.

Why would you go back to surfing if you're not enjoying it

Why would you go back to surfing if you're not enjoying it?

Kahran: Well, because I don't, I don't share exactly. Like, I like boogie boarding a lot, which is a lot. Light surfing. I'll, like, I'll go body surfing. Right? Like, it's, I don't know, it's body surfing. It's surfing without a surfboard. Like, you just catch, you just catch the wave with your body. And then if you, if you can hold yourself kind of, like, buoyantly on the top of the wave, on the crest, you sometimes you have to kick a little bit to, like, stay on top of the wave. But basically you have the natural buoyancy. Like, and your body is aerodynamic. Like, you can surf the wave without a, without a surfboard.

Divya: I mean, you can't, you can't stand up.

Kahran: You can't stand up, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, you can have the wave carry you into shore. Yeah. So I guess the negatives, I don't feel as strongly. It's just like, do you feel like.

Divya: There are things that you can be good at? There are things that you want to be good at, and there are things that you feel like you should be good at.

Kahran: Correct. I feel I should be good at surfing, or at least like, reasonable at surfing.

Divya: Okay. Because, like, I think that, I mean, not that there are zero things in my life that I feel like I should be good at, but if I'm able to sort of catch myself feeling the should, I think I generally try to be like, but why should I?

Kahran: No, I think I'll answer your question differently. I think I feel like I should be good at it because it's like a lifestyle that feels aspirational to me in a way that is alluring. You know what I think a lot of that is how it's packaged, where it's like, yeah, it's not even just like, people like me do stuff like this, but people who I aspire to be do stuff like this.

Divya: I see when you see yourself, on a surfboard, you also see a six pack and flowing hair. And then you go to the. A very nice place and have very vegan. Whatever you want to have.

Kahran: Yeah. You know, you see people at 10:00 a.m. you've already done 2 hours of surfing in the day. That's interesting. Yeah. So I guess, I don't know, I kind of feel like interests are separate. Like, I don't know if, like, the way to think about it is to try and apply this calculus of, you should, there's a lifespan for this interest, and you should think about how you design your desire to engage with that interest appropriately. Whereas I do feel that way pretty strongly about products.

Divya: I also feel like, though, that there is a way to just like, you know, design it as a life philosophy for yourself, that things would naturally come to an end. I mean, most people don't engage with, for example, death either, even though it's such a, ah, reality. Like, I would say the first death that I actually experienced in life was when my dad died when I was 23. And it's like, generally people have some slow sort of gradual understanding. Yeah, it's not like parent died. Bye. but in a very, very strong and palpable way. It made me feel like I'm mortal. I don't know how else to define that feeling, but, like, very limited in my power. Like, I am powerless. And it was a very palpable feeling.

Divya: But the interesting thing is, like, whenever I try to talk about this, not whenever, but like, much more often than not, people automatically start feeling uncomfortable. And a lot of that discomfort is not because I haven't thought about death, or, they are unsure of how I'm gonna feel about it because like, I've had enough feelings about it and I faced it. Yeah, but, like, you yourself wouldn't want to think about it either. You would not want to think about what would it be like for my parent to pass away. nobody wants to imagine that. Or what it would be like for me to pass away, or what would it be like for the people afterwards? What happens if someone younger than you passes away? Right, but like, everything dies and decays, but we don't think about it. I feel like a part of like, people building things and like, not thinking about it is also coming from that feeling. It's like whatever I make is kinda like my child. And I don't want. Not a very great way to relate to things, but we do end up having emotional connections with stuff that we are creating. You don't want to think that it would die someday.

Kahran: So what if you got pushback that was like, well, you know, it's not that I don't want to think about it, but I just have more important things to think about. Like, I have a limited amount of time to spend on this product, service, whatever it is. Right. And keeping it alive is taking up all of my, you know, ability to kind of think. How would you feel about that sort of notion?

Divya: I mean, that's like saying that, oh, I'm too busy going to my job, so I can't write my will. I mean, and I don't want to buy insurance.

Kahran: I've been trying to get my sister and her husband to write a will for years, and I don't think, I still don't think they have to be fair to them. I have not, actually, my will is not official because I haven't, like, it has to be printed and signed and then, like, what not?

Divya: And I've never done it again. It might be coming from that same space. Don't want to think about dying. Don't, want to think about like, you know, when I'll be gone type of.

There is a move worldwide towards experiences with a lifespan

Kahran: Do you feel like there's some like, products or spaces where you are starting to see that kind of thinking more?

Divya: Are you, do you see that happening everywhere? Anywhere?

Kahran: I guess. I think. I mean, there is this move worldwide, it feels like, towards like experience, culture. And I do think that experiences in some ways are, you know, they are things designed with a lifespan. So I guess maybe I would say I feel like there's opportunity because there are more time bound things. and I think there's more, like, people are buying time bound things. I'm not. Maybe. Maybe I'm not 100% sure. I have seen that many, that actually are designing with their end in mind, or at least thinking about the end as something that should be designed as much as the beginning.

Divya: and I wonder if there is also this thing about just not knowing what that kind of a product would look like. So, like, one of the companies that I'm consulting with right now, they design experiences like they do in person experiences. And for them, a good repeat rate would be something like 20% to 30% people, like, you know, coming back over three month period. That would be a great repeat customer.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: And now, just like, if I think about that, it's like, okay, 30% people repeating in three months. Let's say 10% people repeating the next month, which means that 90% people are not repeating. And, like, why wouldn't you design for the people who are not repeating and just giving them almost, like, you know, this beautiful package that they can remember for forever? Like, just as we're having this conversation, I'm just thinking about that. But, like, I don't think that the thought had even occurred to me also, like, not just to the team, who definitely would be way more focused on growth and attention, but, like, yeah, I don't know, if products are going in that direction or if we are actually moving in the direction of more disposability.

Kahran: Yeah, that's interesting. Until you said that, I didn't realize. I think you're right. That is the dichotomy. Right. If you don't design things to end at some point, you're basically designing them to end at any point. So then you have to. So it does drive to a disposable sort of culture. Interesting. We, you know, my, fiance and I have been doing a lot of, like, wedding shopping, and we did meet this one, one indian designer in Delhi. It was very interesting talking to him because he was telling me about how he, when he does wedding clothing, he tells people, give it back to me after the wedding, and I will change it into something you actually wear. So in a lot of cases, like, a lot of the formal wear for indian, for men is long, right? It may be knee length. It might even be like, like, ankle length. And if, you know, if you cut that to be like, like a waist length, now it's like a jacket that you can actually, So I feel like that kind of thing, that kind of thinking is just very inspiring in some ways. I think in some, like, we didn't yet get something from this, this guy, but I think partly because of the way he thinks and because of the way he talks about it, and I almost want to. It's like, yeah, I would love to spend my money to kind of support these kinds of endeavors, actually.

Sustainability ties hand in hand with sustainability in wedding planning

I guess weddings themselves, in a lot of ways, are, at least for wedding planners, that are designed in a way that you are obviously remembering there is an end. Like, I've talked to our wedding planners a little bit about, like, what do you do with all the flowers and what's going to happen to, like, cushion covers and such? And for most things, they have an answer. Like, the flowers all get gathered up. There's actually, like, a vendor who does perfumes, and so he'll send a team out to the venue to gather all the flowers. And then, like, over the years, they've made some shifts. They don't use plastic anymore to hold the flowers. They'll use metal because metal is more easy for them to pull out. And it doesn't change the taste of the perfume in case you miss some. Unlike, plastic, wood.

Divya: Oh, wow.

Kahran: yeah, right. Oh, this is actually thinking about the fact that, like, these flowers do have a life. They do have these things, and we. We can still do something with them even if they're not appropriate for this product. Or I guess this is a service. Right. But, do you feel like having, a death date or a natural lifespan goes hand in hand with sustainability all the time? Is that a fair joining to make?

Divya: It feels much more related than not, is how I would say it. Just thinking about, oh, what happens when this thing would end? Feels like, very close to sustainability because it's like, whether it is something that can only be used once, like, let's say, a packaging for food, or it is something that can be used multiple times, like a tool. What happens when it is at the end of its life? Everything will arrive at the end of its life at some point.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: And, like, what does that look like for this thing? It does feel close to sustainability. When we started this conversation, I did not think that we would arrive here.

Kahran: No, not at all.

Divya: But it's a good place to. I'm just like, We were talking about sustainability, but from a very different lens, like, especially in context of, like, the kind of products that you and I have worked. on which is mostly digital products, one doesn't really think about sustainability.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Like, we still think about sustainability in terms of physical products and not digital words.

Kahran: Yeah, I do agree with that. I think in some ways, we think about attention and time as being an infinite resource, especially of our prospective customers. When you come from a digital product design background, and that's not, if everyone does that, obviously, that would not be sustainable, because it's not actually an infinite resource. It only feels infinite because, at, the summation of every potential prospective customer's time. And sure, that feels infinite, but if every single company that's hunting for those prospective customers starts to behave in that way, that's not going to be long term sustainable. It is exhausting for the overarching system when you draw the system as being culture or the world. but I never thought about it until that, until we drew this connection here, which is very interesting.

Divya: Oh, wow. Yeah. we should do more conversations about this thing. Like, not maybe on the podcast, but this feels like something that we could use as, like, a sort of through line for how we work with people and how we think about it. Like, just this idea of sort of, is this sustainable? Like, on attention, especially the connection that you just drew. Right. Like, attention is limited. People's lifetime is limited.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Right. And if everyone thinks that this is an infinite resource, then we end up where we are clearly today.

Kahran: Yeah. I feel like it feels very strongly resonant to me. Right. Almost like, I wonder if it is kind of like one of the anchors that we can be using, as. I think something we talked about a few weeks ago was like, how do you differentiate? What are you going to say you're better at than anyone else? and I think this could be it. Right? I don't know. Sustainability, for some reason, when I say it like that, doesn't feel like it connotes the right thing. I don't want to say I'm better at sustainability than anything else, but I think being just, like, cognizant that everything is limited, it's almost a weird dichotomy, because as soon as you acknowledge that, it helps you be able to spend more time on the things that you actually want to spend time on, because. You know what I mean? Like, it's. I'm not sure if it just reduces the amount of uncertainty and therefore you're like, oh, yes, I. You know, I know I don't have infinite time, so I must focus only on these things that I want to focus on.

Divya: Hm.

Time with family and friends increases as you get older; time with yourself declines

There was a this is the last thing I'll say. But, like, there was this interesting graph that I saw on Reddit or Instagram, I'm not sure, of this person just talking about where does people's time go over, like, their lifespan? So, like, with their parents and family, with their partner, with their friends, with their colleagues, and with themselves. And, like, of course, as you would imagine, like, you know, time with family, like, until you're 20, very high, and then, like, drops pretty drastically. Time with your partner increases and, like, then plateaus out, but, like, sustains throughout life. time with your friends, initially, like, a little bit higher and then sort of plateaus out at a lower point. The only, I guess surprising, but not so surprising once I saw it. Thing was, the time with yourself kept increasing. Like, you spend more and more time with yourself as your life goes on, especially as you stop working. So, like, time with coworkers is pretty high, but for most people, once they retire at 60, they're not spending that much time with their coworkers. And sure, you will have some increased time with your partner, but mostly you will have time for yourself, right? And, like, it keeps increasing over time in general, also, because it's like, oh, once your kids go away from your house, you have more time. And then once you stop working now, the colleague time is your time, right? Like, it just slowly increases. And, to me, it just feels like, hey, then actually investing in being with yourself and enjoying that time is just so much higher returns over your lifetime. But we rarely, think about that.

Kahran: I guess I wonder if, like, modern society in some ways has, like, set us up poorly because of that thing growing up. You understand, like, oh, these are people I can, like, know for this kind of information, or these are, like, places that I can turn to. And you, like, build systems to help you work in your, in your work. And you, you understand, like, you know, oh, like, like, for example, for me, I've understood, like, I will get very absorbed in things I'm doing, and I will not go to do other things that I'm on my calendar, right. So when I was running a company, one of the things I would do was, like, I had an assistant, which is much easier in India, and he would just keep track of it for me, right. And I had to spend a lot less of my energy on it, and it was a great system for me. It worked out. Now, you know, I think in an earlier era where there, wasn't such clear sort of distinctions of, this is your learning time. This is your working time, this is your retirement time. You would get to have those systems be sustainable for your life. But now that doesn't exist. And that just makes it kind of tough as you get older, because it's like, well, both these systems I had to make myself successful, that I built over years are disappearing. And then also these connections that I had that, like, you know, I used for betterment or just for life and enjoyment also are kind of disappearing. And there's not clear, we don't create ways to replace those. We don't think about it that way. We don't think about that. These things will decay. They will also have a lifespan. So when they are gone, how am I going to have an equivalent thing? And unfortunately, you know, when you're in your late sixties or seventies, sometimes hard to come up with the solution. Maybe you could execute the solution, but coming up with the solution is a lot of energy. That's our thinking.

Divya: No, that is like, that's very true also, because, so it has been, what, ten years since I graduated from college? Not that long, but I've seen and had those conversations with some friends who are like, they haven't made new friends who are not from that circle m and who are not a part of that same group. And I'm not saying that people who are exactly the same as you have had the same environment are not going to be incredible friends. They can be like, so can other people be. But more importantly, you need to know how you can make friends. Like, that's a skilled, and, like, you need to continuously hone it.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: And it's just, at least to me, it's just really weird to see people be like, yeah, it's just harder to make friends. And, my brain is like, you're just 33, you are not 60. Why are you talking as if your life is over? At least like, that's how I feel. Like, it's just a skill that you have to evolve because otherwise, later on in life, it doesn't feel sustainable. Yeah, it's sustainable.

Okay, I'll give you one last small thought that I really should wrap up

Kahran: Okay, I'll give you one last small thought that I know we really should wrap up over time, but that just reminded me, I think I've told you about this before, but of a conversation I had years ago with a very good friend of mine in New York. And, her uncle is also part of the queer community. And she was telling me that it kind of struck her one day that both her uncle and I can really just be in many different kinds of social situations and really be able to kind of sort ourselves out. And we were talking about how we kind of felt like in some ways, it's because of growing up as part of the queer community and feeling like you have to be able to advocate for yourself to be accepted regardless of the circumstances. So I wonder a little bit if you and I have this feeling, because we've always. It's just become so internalized at this point where you're like, oh, yeah, of course. Like, why wouldn't you be able to make new friends? Because if it's something that we. That you have to do, because you're always, like, looking, you're taking care of yourself, you're advocating for yourself in new circumstances. And the best way to do that is to have other people be able to advocate for you as well, which they will do if they're your friends.

Divya: Oh, wow. I had not thought of it like that. But, yeah, that makes so much sense.

Kahran: We can talk about it more next time. We should stop promising it's going to be next time. It'll be in some future week. Maybe or, maybe nothing or maybe not.

Divya: Yeah. But. Okay. Really awesome chat.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our, theme music is by Steve Gomes, and you can find a link to it in the show notes.