Thinking on Learning to Change our Thoughts

Kahran: I feel like, in the gay community, I feel like there's more of this. Like, oh, we're gay. We can talk to each other. Right? And it's interesting because it means, like, otherwise, people tend to cluster. You know, you meet people who have similar backgrounds to you or work in similar fields to you. And so, like, through, like, this, oh, we're gay. Connection. Like, I feel like I've met a lot of people who are very different backgrounds or just different lives than me.

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Kahran.

Divya: And this is thinking on thinking. There are certain skills where if you do learn them once, they give you rewards in multiple places. So, for example, if you learn how to figure out what to invest yourself in, then every next thing that you put effort in is going to be just so much easier. If you learn how to do learning more efficiently, then it would be just so much easier to learn a new thing. If you figure out how to, I mean, of course, there are some things that would be a point of diminishing returns, where it's like, okay, investing more energy in this thing is not worth it. So, for example, if you learn quickly about, okay, when I am trying to learn something new, what are the things that I need to do? Maybe I need to consume this thing. Maybe I need to myself with this particular kind of conversations. Maybe I need to, revise certain things, like, depending on what you are trying to learn and how you are trying to learn and how actively you are trying to learn. Just, like, what kind of question should I be asking? I'm just taking the example of, learning how to learn.

Do you feel like being in a learning state is an equilibrium state

Kahran: So, if I brought you to one of the other things we were thinking about today, do you feel like being in a learning state is an equilibrium state, or do you feel like a learning state is always a state that's taking you to a different state?

Divya: It depends on. Are you okay with the first derivative, the second derivative, or the third derivative? Which one are you okay with? Stabilizing at. Did that make sense?

Kahran: You might have to say a few more words.

Divya: Okay, so when you look at constant acceleration graphs, it's a straight line, not a straight line, which is moving upwards, right? It's a straight line, which is moving horizontally. But the velocity of that same graph is a linear plotting up. And the distance curve for the same thing would be a quadratic.

Kahran: Yeah, correct. Absolutely.

Divya: So now you have to think, do I want the distance in this case? Which would be like, how much stuff I know, do I want that to be linear? Do I want the pace at which I am learning to be linear, which would be velocity, or do I want to. Do I want to consistently improve my capacity to learn, which would be acceleration in this case?

Kahran: I see what you're saying. That is interesting. You feel like it's possible to invest into that last category to improving your capacity to learn.

Divya: I would imagine that it would be possible to go for higher order derivatives also. I don't know if I am able to go there, but I know that, like, it would be possible because a lot of this has to do with how much you already know. Once you cross a certain amount of knowledge, you just arrive at a second stage and then you don't have to. Like, it's just not as tiring. It's a little bit like, if you do some amount of cardio and you go do a new cardio workout, you will need to do some learning around just the basics. But because your lung capacity is amazing, you can just do so much. Like, you can just grow so much faster and you actually do put in less effort.

Kahran: I think watching Gaurav drive has been an interesting experience in that, or, exercise of that notion, right. Because for me, like, I learned to drive when I was. I mean, I think I went to driver's ed when I was 15. And you learn a lot and then you. And then you stop applying most of it in your cognitive, conscious mind, right? Like, you're. You're able to kind of just drive. And even if I was to drive a new car or drive a different kind of car, it's not hard to pick up, right. But. But for the initial learning, or, like, it's just. There's a lot of. It's a lot for your mind to figure out, right. That, like, this is the kind of things I pay attention to. These are the kind of things I sub process. These are the kind of things I can batch process, right. it's interesting, it's a. Ah, partially.

Divya: It'S like your brain learning to build neural networks, right? Basically, your brain needs more and more data until it just knows what paths to take. one of the business coaches that I had worked with, she had this model of, you start from unconscious incompetence. The most painful part of the process is conscious incompetence, when you know you are not good at this thing, but you can, you can no longer unsee the fact that. How bad you are, and then you move to conscious competence where you know you are doing this well, but it's a little hard for you every time. It requires effort from you, but it sort of like your, effort requires. Keeps going lower once you move out of the conscious incompetence level. And once you are at the unconscious competence level, you don't have to think about how to do it. That's when we say muscle memory. The thing has fully transferred into your. What is it? System one thinking. Right?

Kahran: Yeah. Yeah.

Divya: I found it to be a super helpful model because I think at that time, when I was talking to her, I was struggling a lot with some of these things that I was encountering, which were new and I hadn't seen them before.

Kahran: Like, there's notions of how. What you do with knowledge, how you kind of apply it into your.

Divya: Or rather, I was encountering a lot of knowledge that was making me feel conscious incompetence when I was not ready to face that.

Kahran: So should we switch gears a little bit and then talk about the flip side?

How much do you think you waste on things that make you tired

Divya: Okay. How much do you think on a daily basis you have energy to waste on things that make you tired?

Kahran: It's interesting, you know, if we start to drill into it even a little bit. Like, for example, I've been trying to write poetry every morning, right? And I find it's very difficult for me to, first of all, write for more than, like, even just 15 to 20 minutes at a time, right. And that's, like, if I create myself a very conducive environment, there's, like, a certain kind of music I like to listen to. It's a certain hour of the day, right. If I try and create myself that kind of environment, I can sit for maybe 20 minutes outside of that. It's. It's just. Yeah. Like the. I don't have the energy for it. Right. Something about it. Like, I can't. I can kind of, like, force myself to sit for a while, but it just. It doesn't. It's funny. Very hard for me, right. Like, it's. It's really kind of, like, it takes a lot more energy just to, like, keep myself focused on it than it does before that. So I feel like there's a certain. So that's where I think if I started to split it up a little bit, there's, like, a. To use maybe. Like. So there was a card game called the gathering that, for some reason came to my mind, right. And so you'd have different types of mana, in this game, right. And depending on what kind of, like, creature you were trying to summon or spell you were trying to perform, there would be, like, a mana cost. That, could be any type of mana, and then there'd be a specific mana cost, right. So I feel a little bit like that, right where I feel like there are certain things that require specific energy, and then there's also. There also may have, like, a requirement of general energy. And I also feel like sometimes you can use general energy for specific energy, but it'll be less efficient.

Divya: Interesting. I had never thought about it like that. But this is such a good example because, like, sometimes you do feel like you are out of mana when you are trying to do something, and you just. Your brain just will decide that you dont want to do it. Okay, so its making me think of two different things. One part is. So sometimes there are things that your brain is afraid of or like, feels apprehensive about, and so it will try to scare you into not having the inspiration or not having the energy or not having the capacity. Because it would be like, oh, but what if I look on my phone right now, I wonder what my partner is doing. I wonder what my mom is doing. I wonder what that person who asked me for a specific link to a specific band is thinking about. I haven't replied to them. Did I get any new mails? Like, especially with our phones in our hands, it's like, so much easier to distract ourselves whenever we get that feeling. And then there is stuff which is like admin work, right? So, for example, if you write poetry, I am sure you feel fulfilled in some parts that I created something. So it's not something that just drains your mana, it also replenishes your mana. But if you have to, I don't know, run errands or something like that, in most people's cases, it just drains mana.

Kahran: Well, what I usually. What I usually end up doing is I will wait until it has become like a situation in my life. Like, for example, I had a return I made yesterday that Gaurav and I have had sitting in the garage. Now. Now, the fact that it's gone, right? There's neither a bag in my car, nor a bag hiding in that closet, nor a bag downstairs of, like, where it's hidden. All these different things I needed to do for myself. I feel a great sense of accomplishment, and I'm like, goodness, that was just. I'm so proud of us.

Divya: Is it accomplishment or relief?

Kahran: It's relief not to see the boxes. And then also I feel a sense of accomplishment that we did it in the way we did, because it was just very clever. Like we. Yeah, we were just. We managed to combine a lot of things together. We were very efficient.

Divya: Interesting, because, like, I don't think.

Kahran: So it's possible. You just have to do it in a way that it does something that you care about. Like, I feel very pleased we did something very efficient. And also because the efficiency was a metric that has made me feel pleased. Like, it was good that, in the store, the whole experience was also very efficient. So, like, I managed to, like, we put it into our day in a really nice way, and then we also managed to, like, the experience was great. So then my net is. I'm like, ah. yes.

Divya: That is funny.

Kahran: The thing I was dreading is great. So there is definitely a sense of.

Divya: Relief, too, because, like, I don't think that I try to gain. Well, using our previous term, I don't think I try to gain mana out of a lot of these things. Even if I try, I'm generally good at structuring things in a way that would motivate me. But there are some of these things where I feel like it gives me back nothing. And so there is no point. Like, I could optimize for them to bring me happiness. I could optimize for them to bring me joy. But are these the things that I want to derive joy out of? So it's interesting that you say that, because, I mean, the answer could be, yeah, you should derive joy out of everything. But somehow in my buffer, it just, like, does not register. My brain is like, that's not the category of things that I want to feel good after doing for some more context.

There is a particular personality which tries to avoid loss and another personality which is looking to win

recently I was watching a, video where this person was talking about two different kind of personalities in context of people who play hard games. And there is a particular personality which tries to avoid loss and another personality which is looking to win. And people who try to avoid loss, they are very tenacious. They do not give up until they are sort of exhausted, basically, for the lack of a better term. And they might have won or they might not have, but they stay with the task of people who are the ones who are trying to win. They might jump from task to task. They might play a game for a while and then move to another game and then come back to the previous one. The win rates tend to be way better for people who are trying to win rather than people who are trying to avoid losing, even though the effort perception is way higher for people who are trying to avoid losing. And, a very. So a lot of these kind of studies come out, but a very interesting thing that this guy said was maybe you are. I think they called it a promoter or a preventer or something, some stuff like that. I don't remember the exact names that he used, but he basically was like, maybe in gaming you are a particular kind of person who goes for winning, but maybe in your social relationships you're trying to avoid losing, and maybe in your work, you are trying to, like, you have to think, where am I exhibiting? What kind of behavior? Because it could change depending on the domain. And I found that notion very interesting because generally, the way even you were talking about personality tests and generally the way they say is their. I, would say one of their core hypotheses or axioms is the way you do one thing, is the way you do everything. But that's not true. Like, that might be true for some people who care about that kind of consistency in their personality, but I would say that, like, even for those people, they might be at the 80% compliance with their personality, even at the best of times. And then there would be people who change their personality fairly frequently, depending on their moods, depending on how they're feeling, depending on the situation they are in, right? Like, if you're the kind of person who loves hanging out with five of their close friends, are you an introvert or an extrovert? You don't want to do loud things, but you love hanging out with all the five of these people together. Also, it doesn't drain you, but then if you were forced to go to a party, it does drain you. Like, there are so many different ways to look at it. So when I'm thinking about equilibrium, and this is not, I wouldn't say I have assimilated this mental model completely, but it's an interesting thing to think about, what kind of equilibrium am I seeking in this situation, and what kind of equilibrium am I trying to drive towards? Because it changes from project to project as well. Like, the kind of work that, for example, I'm trying to do with Charu is not the same that the kind of work that I'm trying to do with you. And I've become more cognizant of it as I've been working with people who are close to me more, that, oh, my requirements from each project are also different.

There are different expectations of what kind of relationships people are looking for

Kahran: That's really interesting, something that we've talked about, in how the queer community is in the US and in India, there's different expectations of what kind of relationships people are looking for and what they want from them. but I think that the interesting thing about being part of the queer community is that people don't really assign their expectations, expectations of how relationship should be to you. Right? Like, people aren't really, like, looking and saying, oh, you should be with this kind of person, at least in my experience. Like, people are not so much telling me that kind of thing. Like, oh, you know, the right kind of husband for you is going to, like, have these kinds of characteristics, whereas I do think that's a lot more common in the street community. Right. Like, that people will be like, oh, you know, you married the wrong one last time. This time you need to be thinking more like, this way. Right? Like, and, even this kind of, like, looking and saying, like. Like, oh, like, you know, for, as you were kind of saying, like, for whatever reason, maybe I'm playing not to lose right now. And that's, like, could be a way that you're. The way that you're kind of protecting yourself or the way that you're thinking about how you. What kind of people you want to approach or be approached by. but it's very disconcerting, I think, for other people who then look at you and are like, oh, you should be playing in the way I think you should be playing. Right, right. Like, one of the places that you start to feel dissonance with your friends in close groups of circles is when you are in a different equilibrium state than them, I think. Right. Like, when you're working out more or learning more or, like, just doing stuff. Right. People, like, it's weird to people who are not doing that and they feel kind of almost threatened by it. I have found, or at least, like, kind of strangely shamed. Like, again, it's kind of interesting for me to, like, watch my family because, like, Gaurav is someone who behaves very differently than, like, the rest of my family who grew up in a very different environment. And so one of the things he really likes to do is he does duolingo every day. And now my parents both do duolingo every day too, for, like, extended periods. And just like, I mean, it's really nice to see they're all learning different languages. It's very entertaining to me. but. Right, like, it's. I think my family particularly, we have this strange competitiveness, right. And it's like, oh, you're doing self improvement now what will I do? Well, you're not stopping because I'm not doing it. So I guess I better start doing something too.

Divya: Wow, that is one way to read it. I mean, I also think that I have felt very confused when it comes to queer relationships as well, because it's not like I am not status conscious at all. I have grown up in India. I'm definitely fairly status conscious. But what does one do when it's a queer relationship versus when it's a hetero relationship? It's much easier when it's a hetero relationship. Guy is supposed to do this, girl is supposed to do this. This is what's supposed to happen. But then you're in a queer setup and you're like, I don't care. But I also don't have heuristics about this thing. And, like, being around you and Gaurav has definitely helped. There's, like, another friend of mine who is queer, and I'm, like, pretty close to him. And he often says this, that, oh, you would often find that queer people tend to have larger age gaps or they might have race gaps. They will have lot more other gaps between themselves because they are not too different in terms of their gendered experiences. And I found that very, very interesting because there is some way in which you are so close to each other that in other ways, you could be so much different from each other and you would still have compatibility. And it has been very interesting to just think about, okay, should I make my own heuristics? Should I not? And I think that also happens. Right, so, for example, with your family, it might just be that there has been never the heuristic of, we can do things consistently, but seeing Gaurav do things consistently, it's like, oh, this is possible. Like how I said, being around you guys, a couple of new friends that I've made and my siblings working out so much more. I have started working out, and it just feels much more natural to me now. I don't feel worried. Like the fact that I am injured and I can't work out. I feel very sad about that. I don't feel like, oh, I, have to go to gym again. I just feel like, when can I go again? Right. So it might just be that your parents are just thinking, hm, this is possible. I should also do this. Not, I have to defeat this person.

Kahran: I didn't quite mean it, like, defeat this person. Excuse me, but that's very funny. It's interesting you say that, because one of the things I was, talking to this older queer lady friend of mine about was how I feel like in the gay community, I feel like there's more of this, like, oh, we're gay. We can talk to each other. Right. And it's interesting because it means, like, otherwise people tend to cluster. You know, you meet people who have similar backgrounds to you or work in similar fields to you. And so through this, oh, we're gay connection, I feel like I've met a lot of people who are very different backgrounds or just different lives than me. Bangalore, has a couple of different groups. There's a running group or really a breakfast group. The running is very little that meets on Sundays. and kind of different WhatsApp groups. But even when I go to a new place, you can kind of just open an app and chat with someone. I don't know. I feel like I wonder about whether the rest of the queer community has started to use the fact that you always have a conversation opener. Right. You always have something to kind of, like, start something, like, to use it as a strength. It's interesting that you say it the way you were, though, in that, like, how people want there to be some difference between their spouse and themselves and how you can see bigger differences when you have the kind of, like, same, because the society will have treated you in very similar ways. Interesting. out of my close friends, like me, I have married someone who grew up in a different country, like, two of my other very close friends. One of them married someone who grew up in Kyrgyzstan. One of them married someone who grew up in Denmark. And it's kind of interesting how we all grew up in this kind of sheltered existence in Seattle and then all ended up with people, just very different backgrounds. But, I think it kind of resonates with what you're saying as well.

Divya: M. Yeah, I mean, I'm still trying to figure my way out, but it does make me think about what does the brain like, what does our brain try to do when it does not have heuristics of comparison? And that's where, like, your, am I in one equilibrium state and someone is in other equilibrium state? And, like, does that create dissonance? And how I try to resolve that dissonance, it's, like, very interesting. I feel like we ended up in a pretty interesting place. But if you have more thoughts, I.

Kahran: Guess I'm curious where you kind of ended up. Right.

I feel like the thing that brought us together was kind of this notion

Because I feel like I do think that you, especially with people that you're working closely with or people that you are, maybe like, that you're very close to. It's very difficult if you're in dissident states, in approaches that start to overlap with how you're the thing that has brought you together to give you some examples. I feel like the thing that brought us together was kind of in some ways, this notion. I, think you wrote it recently and something I really liked, but like, that we're excited about changing our thinking in order to do problem solving, right? Like, as we were like, oh, you know, maybe it's because we have this analogy or this lens that's shaping our view, and now we can, we can change our thinking, right? And I feel like that's something that, like, fundamentally at, ah, its core has, like, brought us into this. This journey together. You know, I have another friend who we always are playing, like, new games and, like, they're always multiplayer games, and they're always just like, there's an element of learning new things, and I. It's also kind of this instructional element where my friend is always. There's actually three of us, and so my friend is always doing the research on which game it is, and then he's always teaching the other two of us, right. And it's like that is kind of how our relationship is predicated in some ways and just interesting. It's like that has, like, that relationship, that, like, thing that, you know, I do for so many, I don't know, 5 hours a week, say, right. It's kind of in that way. And I feel like if that started to change, like, that's why, like, whenever someone else is trying to introduce a new game, it's never really worked, right. And so anyway, so, I kind of got deep into my examples there, but I feel like. Right, that I feel like there's this thing where, like, you know, when we. When we have had different, like, thoughts, right, when one of the, like, one of my other friend, the third friend wanted to, like, play go in a different direction, like, we just kind of all stopped playing together for a while, and I feel like if you and I started to, like, start to have different thinking about, like, how we thought about doing problem solving and whether we, like, started to become more like, no, you know, I really feel like we've understood. I don't know, like, let's say we find a different. A similar sort of approach to design thinking, to doing kind of experience design, right. We find this model and we're really excited about it. We're like, no, you know, this is the model. Like, I feel like that would read lead to some dissidents if the other person wasn't on that same place. Like, and it would either, you know, cause distance or cause conflict. I don't know. So is that kind of where you, where you ended up from our conversation, or how do you feel about that notion?

Divya: No, that part I agree with. Like what you just said, that if, if we had five or six common points between us that are, you know, in one way, shape or form, welding us together, if we try to break one of those off, would our relationship become weaker? Of course it would. But I think what I'm trying to say is more like telling myself that I contain multitudes. In a weird way, this is so interesting because we often come around to this thing where what I am thinking about applies to the self, and what you are thinking about applies to relationship with other people.

Kahran: Thats interesting. Well, to be fair, the framing was around relationships with other people. But, yeah, I hear what youre saying.

Divya: I mean, like, my brain just went in that direction of, like, or more like, I can have one kind of relationship with one person and a different kind of relationship with another person in.

Kahran: Some ways, I guess even in the same sort of, like, I don't know, skill set or like, like, you know, like, attribute group is what you're saying.

Divya: But it isn't the same skill set, like, to use. because, like, the relationship that I have with you, for example, whatever we are building together, it is different fundamentally from what I am building with charu. And our context is different, and how we are building it is also different. So, for example, you are someone who is very, very comfortable with abstract thinking. You are very comfortable with uncertainty. And it's not that she isn't comfortable with abstract thinking or uncertainty, but her need for having something concrete is much greater. And her need for having something contained is also much greater. Like, for you, on the other hand, at least in my experience, the need for having something that is valuable in the world on, like, a slightly larger level is much more.

Kahran: yeah, I think that's fair.

Divya: And I would say that, like, I personally feel like I get to express one side of my personality with you, and I get to express one side of my personality with her in terms of, like, even how my professional self is, because I have both of those parts as well. I want to make small things that feel precious, and I also, want to change the way problems are solved.

Kahran: It's really interesting. It's interesting that you don't feel like your relationships are built on certain things. And I guess in this case, we're talking about your sister and me. So these are people you spend a lot of time with. And I'm sure there's lots of threads to their relationships. Like, I feel like it's really exciting when you meet someone who has a similar sort of attitude towards something that you also care about and just like, it's kind of cool. And then I think, and now to maybe bring it into the negative, something that I have found, especially with people who have been my mentors and people who have been, who I've worked with in older periods, that people's lives, circumstances have changed. Especially people who you've worked with, you connected on a certain thing and especially you connect you on a way of thinking. Right. Especially people, in my experience, people you like to work with, the delight they bring to problem solving or the delight they bring to like, the challenges, the way that you kind of can, can resonate on those is really fun. And so I think it's just been interesting for me to see like as now as that, like, as I don't have kind of as mentoring sort of relationships as much as I've gone, you know, further in my career and as some of my ex colleagues have retired, as I hang out with them, it's interesting where I feel like I'm like, oh, there was this side of you that I really resonated with and I don't know how to engage it anymore. Right. Or I don't know how to, like. And I don't know if maybe you, like you're saying maybe they just have. Have people change. Right. And the way that they approach the world changes the way they approach you may have changed. Right. but it's interesting to me that. Or maybe I'll again frame it as a question where I think it's.

Steve: Relationship has a half life depending on what factors elevate over time

I'm curious about how you feel like that you're thinking and like the way you approach things, lets you resonate more with other people as you kind of meet new people. And then also how you find that, like, as that changes with some of your weaker bonds, does it kind of lead to just that bond kind of fading?

Divya: Are you familiar with the concept of half life?

Kahran: Yeah. Yeah. Like in.

Divya: Yeah, like in nuclear biological terms.

Kahran: Yeah. Yeah.

Divya: Right. it's this thing. Well, like half of the atoms in this sample are gonna go away in this many years and I feel like it similar for relationships with a more compounding factor of things elevate over time or they stagnate over time. So if there are relationships which have been elevating over time, which means that both of you have been travelling, you have been on parallel tracks, you haven't diverged from each other, then you can imagine that over time, this is a relationship which has a longer half life and, like, it's in that category. And then there are relationships which are, not going to be in that category. I have, I think when I was in college, I had this realization in college, I was a very social person. Like, I knew so many people, so many people knew me, but I knew that most of these bonds will be gone once I get out of college. And I have still, like, maintained a lot more bonds than other people have. But I feel like there is a slight stoic sense of whatever will leave, will leave, and whatever will stay will stay. Like, I don't try to force it almost, because, what I do try to do is, like, when people are precious to me, I try to make multiple bonds with them because those are harder. Like, even if you lose one track, it's harder to lose another and another and another all at the same time. Even at that point, you know, I'm sure there could be something. So, for example, right now we are really close. I'm sure there would be something that I could do that would make you think, I never want to talk to her ever again. I hope that I never do that, right? Like, because I've had a friendship of maybe, what, 1213 years with somebody who I was really close to, and it just snapped in one day. And, like, was it painful? Of course it was. But there was something there which just made me think, okay, this is a, must have for me, and I'm not gonna get. I'm not gonna get this from this person anymore. On the other hand, there are relationships which have surprised me. I didn't expect it to last this long. I'm amazed that this has. And then I've had friends, even from my college, that I wasn't close to when I was in college. Our paths crossed much later on, like the queer friend that I'm talking about. We were not close when we were in college. We knew each other. We were friends of friends. and then, like, now we are really close. And it's very. It's an interesting space to be in where I just feel like it's more fluid. People will come in your life and go out of your life based on so many factors. You can only maybe control, like, 20% of a relationship, the other person controls another 20%, and then the rest of it is circumstance.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: Like, that's how I feel about it. At least it could be, you know, I'm just giving myself excuses.

Kahran: No, I think that makes sense. I mean, it's just a lot to think about, which is always a nice place to end. I feel like we're always ending in a place of a lot to think about.

Divya: Yeah. I feel like this might be a long one, though.

Kahran: Yeah. I had a lot of questions. Sorry.

Divya: But. Okay, so we shall have our byes also. Okay.

Kahran: Okay.

Divya: Yeah. This was a very good one. Bye. Bye. Okay, I'll see you.

Kahran: Bye. See you soon.

Divya: Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes, and you can find a link to it in the show notes.