Thinking on Confidence & Feelings of Success, Failure and Achievement

Divya: It's interesting that we generally don't consider pivoting failures

Divya: It's very interesting that we generally don't consider pivoting a failure while we consider completely, stopping a failure. Except if you actually think about it, pivoting is completely stopping at one point and starting something else. So then is the failure to not start a new thing. Hi, I'm Divya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm karin.

Divya: And this is thinking on. Thinking.

Kahran: Yeah, I think, like, yeah, we. As we were talking about before we started recording, like, I think we ended up talking a lot more about the personal side of failure in episode three. But I think it's kind of interesting to think about how failure affects, more things than just how you look at yourself. Right? Like, because failure is oftentimes public, and it shows people, or it lets people conclude something about, you, or at least think they can conclude something about.

Divya: You, or it at least lets you think that other people are concluding something about you.

Kahran: Yes, that aspect as well.

Divya: Like you rightly pointed out, it's very interesting that we jumped directly from being foolish to failure. And, like, that says something about that connection in our brainstor that's really interesting. Your statement, like, the connection between foolishness and failure is a lot more internal than it's probably external.

Kahran: I don't know. I mean, there's these interesting articles now, about, Adam Newman. You know, Adam Newman, who founded Wework. So there's this, what would you call it? Email digest, I guess, that I get, from a guy named Matt Levine, and he was just talking about how one of the best ways it seems to get a billion dollars is to burn a billion dollars. And it's interesting, that logic, right? Because, yeah, right. Like, it does show people that if you have invested that much money, right, or were, you know, you raised that much money and then spent it, basically. Right? Like, obviously, you had an idea strong enough to get that much money from that many people, and then you hopefully learned some lessons from it. So, in some ways, right? Like, you could look and say, oh, wait, what is the most kind of public failures you can have? If can have a company, you know, especially a big private company, fail to go public is maybe the most kind of public failure you can have. and then to kind of look at that and be able to see, I don't know, I just kind of assumed you saw the news. But Adam Newman has a new company, and it's in residential real estate. and, you know, I think Anderson Horowitz wrote some $300 million check or something like that, which is, like, the biggest check they've ever written to a company. interesting, right? And so I don't think, you know, and I've heard his interviews, like, I don't think Adam Newman looks at it as a failure. He looks at it as circumstances. And right, like, that there was a bunch of things that kind of conspired so that his vision wasn't able to reach the realization it should have reached. But that doesn't mean he personally failed. It's basically how I hear it whenever I hear, his interviews.

Divya: That's also interesting, because, so I have been reading, thinking fast and slow. Just now I have finished the chapter on optimism bias and how that is, like, primarily found in entrepreneurs and founders and business people and scientists and people who basically would deal with a lot of failure, who would deal with a lot of odds against them. And he talks about how most founders use this optimism bias. Most business people who do these kind of small, businesses, they use that bias in a way where they're able to own all of their successes and almost none of their failures.

Kahran: That's really funny.

Divya: And, like, the way you were talking about, this guy is just, like, reminding me of that. But there's also this other thing where. So I had been thinking about confidence for a while, and there is a channel that I've also shared with you, healthy gamer GG. And there was this conversation, on that one, with some person where. So the host of the channel is a psychiatrist, and he talks a lot about psychology, and he doesn't exactly give people therapy, but he helps them think about things more clearly. But he talks about how we imagine that success will give us confidence, but success generally gives us imposter syndrome, and failure gives us confidence, because what confidence requires is for you to have the knowledge that you would be able to recover after a failure, not that you wouldn't fail.

Kahran: Interesting. Also, I think something we were talking about, again, in episode three was this notion of what you do afterwards matters.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: And then also, I think the uncertainty of what will happen when you fail is reduced when you fail. Almost always, whatever you imagine is going to happen is not as bad as what actually happens. Almost always. Now you have a reduction of the anxiety, which, is the fear you have of doing it again. And then also, like. Like, for. For example, I've been. I've been working out, and I've been lifting weights this summer. it's been the first time I've ever really kind of done something like this. And I think, like, even though it's been, like, a little tough on some of my joints and whatnot. Right? Like, the fact that I have gone back to it and, like, I am fine. It's just like, you know, it makes me feel so much more confident about, like, using my potty in different ways. Right. Like, even now, as I'm, like, trying to figure out, like, what will I, like, do from here, as I'm going to be coming to India and then looking for, like, you know, maybe figuring out, like, do I want to keep lifting or, like, will I do something else? I, Just because you've gone back to it and you. And you also know what the potential negative outcomes are, right? Like, so then anxiety part is reduced, and then also you're more confident because, you know, you. You, like, you did it. You've done it over and over again. I don't know if that.

Divya: No, no, no. That makes perfect sense because it's a little bit connected to what you were saying earlier before we started recording that once you have done something once, it's easier to do it the second time because a lot of your unknown unknowns have translated into known unknowns. You know where you're gonna hit a snack. You don't know which kind of snag you're gonna hit, but you know where you're gonna hit it. Yeah, it's a little bit, like, similar to revisiting a topic of conversation. Also, this podcast is not scripted. We don't know what we are going to talk about. We just have a general idea of, ah, okay, we can talk about this or talk about that, but the fact that we have talked about success and failure before makes this conversation that we are having right now a lot more comfortable. At least for me, it makes it a lot more comfortable, even though we don't know where it needs to go.

Kahran: Yeah, I mean, to me, and this is even what I was thinking about before you started that sentence a little bit.

Our first episode was about the notions of success. Our third episode was kind of about these notions of failure

And again, I think you talked about this in episode three, but there is this notion of, like, local minima. I'm m sorry, local maxima and global maxima and similar with minima. But, I guess it's like, it's the confidence of knowing that you are. We're not in one, I guess. Like, for example, you know, we've. We've tried to record, like, I think last week we recorded on a subject that we just realized after we recorded it wasn't really that interesting. Right? Yeah, we'd kind of explored it a little bit, but it was a local maximum. It was just like, you know, I think even you and I were bored after talking about it for ten minutes. Whereas this notion. Right. Like, we. Our first episode was kind of about the notions of success. Our third episode was kind of about these notions of failure. What makes you a fool? What makes you a failure? Right. And even there, like, I just did something interesting, which is, like. Right. To use a failure as a verb, and then also it's. It can be a noun. Right? Like, you can say someone is a failure. Right?

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: anyway. Oh, no, no. I just totally lost my train of thought.

Divya: You were talking about. You said that even before I started the sentence, you were already thinking about the fact that we have been revisiting this topic in different ways across our conversations.

Kahran: Correct? Yeah. So I think that I'm just more confident this one is a, It is just something that we can explore a lot. And I think it's just interesting that we found it relatively quickly. This topic that we find very interesting, I think is very interesting. Yeah.

Divya: I mean, as people who have generally had relatively successful parents and have had childhood where we were told that you ought to be successful and do well in your life, I think that, like, the concepts of success and failure would probably be, like, very high up on both of our heads.

Kahran: Yeah, for sure. I, also think it's, like, culturally. Right. Like, and I guess this is kind of what you're saying, but I would just say even outside of, like, the family unit, I think that there's a, like, I think both in american culture and in indian culture, there's a big emphasis on, like, achievement. Right. And achievement is about being successful. And I think it's. I don't know. I think american culture maybe is a little bit more showy in that way. Right. Like, I recently learned from my trainer, I had no idea about this, but there's something called Little League, which is a type of baseball, and it's played by. It's like starting. I believe he was telling me, from eight years old up to twelve years old, and at twelve years old, you're done. There's no more little league for you. Right. But it's such a big thing. The entire world plays. Like. Like the Little League, World Series is going on right now. All the countries are playing each other. The US has so many teams, it takes months for them to. All right, and these kids are twelve years old. Right. And like, m my trainer, he played in Little League. Like, it's a really big thing. It's a huge achievement that you can have at a really, really young age. That really doesn't translate to very much for the rest of your life, in some ways, right? Like, because you can't, very few of these kids are going to go on to play professional baseball, and if you don't go on to play professional baseball, it's. I'm not entirely. I guess you learn a lot about, like, mental fortitude and, like, you know how, like, athletes. You're right. You learn a lot as being. As being a whatever. I was almost gonna say professional athlete, but student athlete, let me say. But it's just interesting because I think America is full of these kind of things, right? It's. There's all these kind of, like, high stakes things that you can be part of even from a very young age. And if you're. If you're big, you get, I guess, like, the reward is fame. I, think in India, there's actually some similarities where there's the reward is fame. I don't know if you would agree.

Divya: I wonder what culture, other than general western Europe, is not achievement focused? Because when I think about chinese culture or korean culture or japanese culture or nigerian culture, they're all pretty intense when it comes to but individual achievement. Like China was the example that came to my mind because there is this podcast that I listened to called the women podcast, and they were interviewing somebody who had worked in China, in the education sector for quite a while, and she was talking about how standardized testing is just not working. But the population of China is so high that there is no other way. She was giving the example of what is the point of pushing kids into after school classes when some of the kids go to upwards of ten classes after school?

Kahran: And.

Divya: Wow, that is insane.

Kahran: Yeah, that is really insane.

Divya: And it's not like chinese kids are not forced. Forced is maybe a strong word, but it's not like they're not pushed into doing extracurricular work. Right.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: and so I'm just thinking that, like, what, other than western Europe, is a space where people are not that achievement oriented. Although I do agree that in both America and in India, it's pretty prominent.

Kahran: So I think this is interesting, but I feel like the topic we were talking about is more interesting.

How do we perceive how other people perceive our achievement depends on confidence

So, I feel like I'd bring it back a little bit. So I wonder a little bit how if we think about achievement from a, like, or maybe I'll phrase that as a question, how do you think that the way we perceive how other people perceive our achievement then goes on to shape, what we were kind of talking about, which is how confidence kind of results from either the success or failure of your perception of the undertaking. Does that make sense? Sorry, I know that was kind of convoluted question.

Divya: No, I mean, I have a lot of, like, a lot of things come to my mind when I was hearing that question. Okay, so context for people who don't, know this. I appeared in jee, which was the. Which is, like, for engineering colleges, one of the highest exams. It's the entrance exam that you need to clear to get to the best colleges in India. And I cleared it. I got, like, a four digit rank, which is basically top 1% of people who apply or 0.1% of people who apply. Something like that. I think it's 0.15 lakh or seven lakh people applied that year. And I got my rank was 3000 something. It's crazy. Just if you think about the odds, like, it's an insanely high number. And I felt very dissatisfied with my rank. It wasn't just me who felt very dissatisfied. I remember my mum and dad also being like, damn, this is not a good rank at all. And as we got there, because everybody there had been a through IIT, the fact that you cleared the entrance exam was no longer a big deal. And now you are a standard for success for yourself, just, like, altered instantly. Within, like, you know, within 24 hours, you were looking at yourself as, oh, am I at the bottom of the totem pole? Am I at the top of the totem pole? Hierarchies were getting constructed based on, oh, are you in a four year course? Are you in a five year course? What department do you have? Right.

Kahran: Like, that's so interesting. So you feel like there was a moment you felt successful?

Divya: I didn't feel successful at any point, but I just felt more like a failure.

Kahran: What about the moment you got your exam results there? You must have felt successful, right?

Divya: I was very like, I remember the expression on my face and my dad's face and my mom's face was as if someone had died in our house. It totally was nothing.

Kahran: Like so many people. I mean, obviously, right? Hundreds of thousands of people do not pass the exam at all. Right? They don't. Yeah.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Okay. Just. Just making sure we're on the same page here. Yeah.

Divya: Like, around 5000 kids pass the exam.

Kahran: Oh, my God.

Divya: At least at that time, around 5000 or 6000 kids passed the exam out of five lakh. That's like 500,000.

Kahran: That's insane to.

Divya: But, it still didn't feel like that, and I'm not an outlier. I am the average experience of anyone who got a four digit rank.

Kahran: Wow. I guess because you have to work so hard to be able to get a four digit rank, right, that your expectations of yourself are like, oh, I should be over here.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: But that's interesting. Do you feel like. So you also had a perception that people around you would note, be impressed, but then it was kind of validated because, it sounds like, at least the way you're talking about it, that.

Divya: Like, I mean, I didn't know any people who had gone to IIt other than my dad before I went to IIT. Within ten days of being in IIT, 90% of the people I knew had cleared that exam. So the standard of success and failure, especially in a social context, of course, altered pretty instantaneously there.

Kahran: And, like, people would be like, oh, what's your rank?

Divya: Of course.

Kahran: Oh, my God, really?

Divya: I mean, you didn't need to tell your rank or you didn't need to ask someone. If you asked someone, what's your department? so you would know just based on that. You know, like, most things in India, there is a proxy for everything, but people will judge your social status pretty cool quickly. Like, they really feel the need to.

Kahran: Interesting. Oh, yeah. This has been explained to me. Yeah. Like, no one wanted to go to biology. Right. So everyone would go to, like, computer science and electrical engineering.

Divya: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kahran: interesting.

Divya: It's not that nobody wanted to do biology because most kids don't have access to knowing what they like or what they don't like. They just take the thing that makes most money.

Kahran: I see. And it understood. Computer science, electrical engineering, those make the most money.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: What about you? how do you relate to, like, failure from, like, a other people perspective, I guess.

Kahran: Well, we were talking about it from the success point of view, but you quickly brought it back to failure.

Divya: Okay, success from other people point of view.

Kahran: no. I mean, no, you framed as failure. well.

I dropped out of culinary school to go run a company in India

Well, here, I'll give you two different ones because I think they're both really interesting. so I dropped out of culinary school, which I don't really make a secret about. Right. Like, as soon as I kind of talk about culinary school, I'll usually mention it. No one really remembers that. It never is, like, as much of a thing as much as the amazement that I went to culinary school. Right. And what that experience was. And, like, I don't know. I mean, it's interesting, right? I don't know. If it's partially because of the way I feel about it or because of the way people respond to it. Right. And I'm not sure. I feel like both of those two have influenced each other, and I'm not sure which one sent me on the good path. But, I feel like I learned a lot in it. Right. I thought it was really interesting. I would think both how we learned the content, I learned, and then that style of learning. Right. So. And what I mean by that is, like, there was a certain instructional style which was very, just rote driven. Right. Like you do, as I did. I. Exactly. And I had never experienced that. Right. Western schooling, especially the kind of schools I went to in Seattle, are not like that. They're much more about, like, here's a problem. Engage your mind, and you will, like, deeply go into the problem. Right. And culinary school is not like that. It's like, do as you or I will, like, make you humiliated or scared. Right. Like, it's a very fear driven, way of teaching. And then I found the content very interesting. Right. I find french culinary. I find all these complete cuisines very interesting, where you can kind of just understand how they would use the whole animal, how they would use, like, the whole ecosystem, how did the way that land is and the kind of, animals and plants that would grow there come together to create a way of eating. Right. I just think, find that kind of content very interesting. and then finally, like, learning in that way, which is a. Someone shows you something and then you do it. Right. So it's a very hands on kind of learning style. It was, again, also very interesting to me because most schools, you don't learn that way. Right. Unless you, like, do, like, a woodworking class, which I'd never done anyway, so. Right. So that's very interesting because that's an experience where I feel like I don't really. I was kind of, in some ways, a failure at it, right. Like, I ended up dropping out of school, but, I mean, I did to go run a company in India. So I think that kind of helps it not seem like a failure. I didn't drop out because I was failing or something. Right. I was doing very well. and I will have you know, when I think about Vidya next, right, which is the company I left to go run. And I did run in India. I mean, there, I don't know. I mean, there I don't. I don't really ask people as much, and people, I think, don't also push me as much about it. Like, I think some people are curious, and then they talk to. They'll ask me about how it went, and I kind of talk about how, So to give some background for our listeners, right. My company, ended up shutting down in March 2019. And I took that decision because we were spending a, lot of money. Right. I didn't see a path to us returning that money to our investors with any sort of reasonable multiplier. And I saw us spending another two to three before we could even have a viable path. And part of the baggage that we had was a lot of just content. Right. We had built a lot of things over the kind of decade and a half. The company had been alive, and trying to do right by that was trying to show value in those was a burden, in a lot of ways. And I think if we had pivoted maybe a little bit harder, I don't know. There's many, even as I talk about it now, right. Like, it doesn't feel to me as a success. now, do I think that that's influenced by my perception of how other people think about it? well, I don't know. I think other people's views of companies that are not successful are not as harsh as how you think other people think about them. Right. I mean, I think it's very hard. I think why that Adam Newman story I was telling you at the beginning, is so intriguing to me. It's because that's so hard for me to imagine, right. It's something I'm still trying to, like, process, I think, in some ways, right? Like, I don't know where exactly I would put it on that failure success chain. And I don't know how I have. I don't know if maybe to use kind of the language we were talking about, in our previous episode, I don't know today whether I. What I've done next yet to show whether that's a good failure or a bad failure.

Divya: interesting.

Do you think pivoting is failure? Well, it depends on what failure means

Do you think pivoting is failure?

Kahran: Well, it depends on what failure means, right? So I think that, in some ways, I would prefer to pivot from something when I know, when I'm ready to put that idea to rest. And I guess, you know, now that with the nexus top of mind, I'll use it as an example. We, at our core, had an idea that we would use, teachers to supplement content that was primarily in our tablets, right. But that the teachers would be in a role where there would be a supporting role to our content. And, we would be able to make best in class content. Because the Internet is what it is today. We can get to teachers who are the most excellent teachers in the world. And democratizing that kind of access to these top talent was part of our core ethos. Right now, I felt ready to put that idea to rest. I don't even think it was just us. I think where technology is and where core curriculum is today, you can't use technology to supplement a teacher. You can use technology to assist a teacher, but using technology to supplement a teacher and having that inverse relationship, I think that idea, the way we interact with technology today culturally, and then also the way that technology has the capabilities to adapt to our interaction, are not at a point that we can do that. So I'm ready to say that I could put that idea to. I asked, and I think that's why the pivot that we undertook where I spun out a small company with one kind of idea and three people, that was, I'm really. I would say that that idea was a failure in its context. The previous idea, the one I just described. Right. And the new idea that those people took forward, was, a more successful, potential idea. Did that make sense? I'm sorry, I kind of. I feel like I partially answered your question, and then I partially went off a little.

Divya: No, no, it makes sense because. So it's very interesting that we generally don't consider pivoting a failure while we consider completely stopping a failure. Except if you actually think about it, pivoting is completely stopping at one point and starting something else. So then is the failure to not start a new thing. And I don't know, it. Like, my mind went into all sorts of interesting directions, and I didn't know that you actually, like, split off and three people were doing something like that part we have never talked about.

Kahran: Oh, yeah. It's called Quiznext, actually just got acquired last year, by a company called lead school. but, yeah, it was really interesting because we realized, we built a free quizzing tool that students could earn points for their school, and then we ranked all the schools in a given area. And it was just like, that was the small conceit that was kind of the core to the idea, but it really resonated with students, and we got them to give us their parents contact info, and then we could follow up with them to sell them tuition products. so it worked out as a great lead generation tool, which was what we needed at the time. And I looked at that and I felt like that was the most successful thing we had built, and so we spun that out to be its own product with a small team. But, you know, a free quizzing tool. Didn't need a 50 person team. Ran a call center. Right. Like, it needed just, you know, a couple of developers. A pm.

Divya: Interesting.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: So, we've never talked about this, but, like, how come you don't consider that a success? Like, you identified what works, and then you sort of built the structure around that, that would enable that thing to work well. And I'm assuming that if it got acquired recently, then it has done well.

Kahran: It did okay. It could have done much better. Right. So, it was one of those acquisitions where, not really any money is exchanged, if you're familiar with those kinds of acquisitions. I mean, I think they got some. Like, that team got like, a, Maybe, I think a hiring bonus or something. Right. But it wasn't like a real return to the shareholders in any way. I guess I feel a little bit like, It's kind of weirdly, what's the word? The opposite of immodest. But I didn't realize kind of, like, how much they needed. I don't know if it was me or the supporting company. I think in some ways it was me because, I kind of did a lot of the product thinking for the company. Anyway, they kind of got stuck. Right. That was a great kind of initial idea, but it wasn't enough to sustain them for four years. Right. Like, you had to build more into that or build around that, understand more of, like, okay, what else do these students need? Am I starting to deliver more value to kind of teachers when half of their class is using me as a quizzing tool. Right. Like, you had to start to build a little bit more around it, and then it would have become a more viable proposition. or you had to build advertising into it and build a freemium model. Like, you had to do something, you know? And I think the fact that they weren't able to do that makes me a little bit sad because I'm like, oh. So, in some ways, you know, I feel like that advice I wish I had had more options, you know? and unfortunately, I didn't, but I'm not happy having to make the best of bad options.

Divya: Interesting. You know what? This is making me think? Like, a lot of these concepts are so fuzzy in our own brain that it's almost like, when we arrive at a point of, I don't want to think more about this. We stick a label onto it. The moment we sort of, when something is ongoing, we don't really like to define it as a failure or a success. We discussed it last time as well. Right? Like sort of putting a previous, like our previous sort of museum proposition on the back burner and saying that, okay, it's not working in the form that it is right now, but still, it makes. It would make us uncomfortable to say that it's a failure because we are not saying, oh, we are done with that yet.

Kahran: That's interesting.

Divya: Right? But, like, the moment I'm sure we feel, ah, it's. I don't want to think about that anymore. We would very easily call it a failure. That was a failed idea. So interesting in context of what you were saying, right. Like, with their next. Almost feels like, oh, it had a successful offshoot. Like, you did pivot.

You tried out a bunch of different things and some of them worked

You tried out a bunch of different things. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. Some of them work to varying degrees. But at the end of the day, because the chapter almost got closed in your mind and it didn't go out with a bang. Like, your brain sort of assigned it a particular label.

Kahran: That's really interesting. Cause it also reminds me of this question I was asking you, I think, at the beginning of last episode, which is like, can an external observer know that something was foolish? and I know I'm drawing a corollary here between being foolish and a failure, but, that just. It's just interesting to me because in this case, it's almost like you couldn't see that. I perceive that as a failure from the data that I just presented to you, because you're like, oh, look, that's really interesting. but I think you know why it is, though. It's because I didn't present you all the data, right? Like, if you had known how much money the company raised, right? Or something like 50 crores by the end of it, right? And then having a, you know, having a free acquisition is just not a great outcome for that kind of money. Now, of course, we could, in the same moment, argue that, like, you know, there's many other companies that have raised many times that amount, right? And not all of them have been successful. Some of them have been successful.

Divya: Wework.

Kahran: Like, say, wework. I think it's something like they went. They. I think just from Softbank alone, it's a yemenite, like, $15 billion. And the company now is valued at, like, I think, 2.7 billion or 3 billion. Right. Because it's being publicly traded. But Adam Newman is a billionaire.

Divya: Wow. That's amazing. You know what? Like, people like him and Elon Musk, and Mark Zuckerberg. I mean, they're successful people, but they make me think, if you believe hard enough that I'm successful, then you will be successful.

Kahran: It is incredible. I mean, I do think it's a little unfair to group Adam Newman with the other people who grouped it right there, and maybe he'll prove me to be wrong. Right. And maybe he will kind of have that same sort of, like, ability to, I don't even know. Like, I think. Well, I would say I think both of them are different. Right. I think Elon Musk has, ability to kind of, like, do first principles. Thinking seems to be very strong. Right. He can just bring it to, like, things that people thought were not, like, rocket launches. I'm not sure what kind of CEO Mark Zuckerberg is. I have not heard enough of, like, conversations with him or because he.

Divya: Controls the information on the Internet. Not just that he's not on any podcast, but I think he has a very strong hold on what information goes out on the Internet.

Kahran: Yeah. Or at least is how much it gets picked up. That's really interesting. It's so true. It's been years since I read any negative stories about him, like, even small ones.

Divya: I mean, the only negative story about him has been the one where he was presenting to the Senate and people made memes of him looking like a lizard man. But those memes resonated on four chan and Reddit, not on Facebook.

Kahran: Very interesting. And there's nothing that would stop Facebook and instagram from having a policy of saying, you know, we take down any posts about our, about our senior.

Divya: Executives, they don't even need to write a. They can just kill it.

Kahran: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Quietly. Wow. Yeah. You can even just do it in the code. Right? No one even has to see it.

Divya: Yeah. I mean, people talk. This is something completely separate, but, like, people talk about being shadow banned on Instagram all the time. Right?

Kahran: Yeah, yeah, I know. I read that. Yeah. I used to, like, think it was just people complaining, but then you see it so often now I don't think it can be.

Divya: It's not about that. It's also, like, I've had a couple of artist friends who posted, like, anti Hindutva stuff, and their posts just stopped showing up.

Kahran: Wow.

Divya: Like, the reach is so abysmally low.

Kahran: That's really interesting.

Divya: I was,

How does our brain actually end up labeling anything as failure

Okay, so before we close, like, what. What our conversation today has made me think about is how does our brain actually end up labeling anything as failure? Because, like, consciously I know at least now that confidence building happens if I fail, but it's not like my resistance to fail has reduced and, like, why that is. So I'm, Probably, for me at least, I'm probably going to go back and think more around that of, like, when do I label something as a failure and why?

Kahran: Yeah, I think that's interesting. I think also thinking about how m. It's interesting how we label things when it's ourselves versus other people. and interesting looking for those cognitive dissonances, right? Or at least those disconnects where you're like, oh, wait, why did I. I wouldn't feel the same way if someone had told me the story about Vidya next. The way I told it to you. Right. The way I feel about it. Right. Which is like, I don't really like to talk about it. It's like this big, like, grr. Thing in my mind, you know, it's like, well, there's no real reason. Right. Like, I. Sure. The company is 15 years old and it had raised 45 crores before I ever got there. Right? Like, you know? Sure, right. Like, I was responsible for. Not the whole journey, and I think for the journey, parts of the journey I was responsible for the outcomes weren't that bad. but it's just interesting how, you know, that's. It's easier for me to say that now having chatted about it with you and, like, now thinking about it more objectively than I could when it was kind of this emotionally charged thing anyway. So, yeah, I think I will continue to tumble on that. Awesome.

Divya: this is a good episode.

Kahran: Cool. Yeah, I loved it. Yeah.

Divya: I'll see you again. Bye.

Kahran: Bye.

Divya: Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our, theme music is by Steve Gomes and you can find a link to it in the show notes.