Thinking on Pain & Emotional Signaling, Learning & Brain Pathways
Divya: We learn through pain. So when I started thinking about pain, I was thinking about
Divya: It's also probably like, your brain has learned certain pathways to avoid certain kinds of pain. And even when those pain points have gone away, your, like, pathway has been structured in just a way that you don't think, oh, I could be taking a shortcut here. Hi, I'm Divya.
Kahran: Hi, I'm Kahran.
Divya: And this is thinking on thinking. So when I started thinking about pain, I was thinking about. So do you know about the concept of, like, eustress and distress?
Kahran: No.
Divya: Okay. So the parts of our brain that are sensitive to pain are also the parts which are close to making new memories. So, quite literally, we learn through pain.
Kahran: Interesting.
Divya: Now, in the current world, we just have one word that we use to denote pain, which is stress. But in psychology, I don't know where the origin is at, but I'm quite sure that it would be somewhere in the greek and roman philosophers, they must have come up with this stuff. There is the concept of Eustress, which is, like, good stress. And there's a concept of distress, which is basically, like, when you're overloading the system, it's distressed. But Eustress is required for the system to progress or move forward.
Kahran: Interesting. what does it mean to move forward in that context?
Divya: So, like, to learn anything new for your brain to form any new circuits, right? So, like, your brain will form new circuits in both cases. But let me put it like this. Our, brain would love to stay in a comfortable position, if it can, forever. It's lazy and evolutionarily adapted towards just staying wherever it is. But it's only through sort of some amount of introduced Eustress that we can grow. Even as you were talking about, like, for example, you are seeing your nephew learning how to walk or learning how to operate in the world or doing things. He's definitely experiencing some amount of stress from not being able to do the thing.
Kahran: That's interesting. Yeah, we were actually talking about something kind of similar to that. Right. That, like, it's interesting how when he falls down, he doesn't know that you're supposed to be sad unless you react in a way that you're like, oh, my God. Right. Yeah. He doesn't know that. That's the reaction. It was really interesting how we have formed these kind of, understandings of, like, oh, I have this sensation. This sensation means this. I should then react in this way. and how you kind of group different things together. Right. Like, it's something that actually comes up when I'm working out. Like, both when I was in India with my. With my trainer there. And then also here is, like, the difference between different things. Right? Like, are you in pain? Are you sore? Are you, like. Right. And I think, like, it's very easy to kind of group that all together and be like, oh, this is, you know, net unpleasant.
Divya: Yeah.
Kahran: Do you feel like that culturally? there is more of a distinction in some places, or you feel like everyone has just kind of gone to this notion of, like, being under stress is painful. We don't want to be under stress, or at least grouping all of that together.
Divya: I think that if you're in an underprivileged society or you belong to an underprivileged group, you're more. Again, like, I don't have data to back it up. I think that you'd be much more sensitive to pain and much more likely to group things under distress. So, like, for example, in India also, I feel this, that people are a lot less adventurous in groups or, like, you know, in areas where there is more. Just overall, the level of distress in society is much higher. If the overall level of distress in society is higher, then people are way more likely to feel like any sign of distress is distress, or rather, they will try to protect themselves rather than trying to grow from it. It's basically a little bit like, you know, if you overload a system, the system will shut down. So in a weird way, people who are, like, you know, chronically under distress, they're very good at being bare level functioning, but they're not very, like, thrive again, there are, like, too many concepts getting mixed up, maybe, but there is, like, the difference between thriving and surviving. And, you know, there is even that thing, about how your brain functions differently when you are in survival mode versus when you are in thriving mode. Right. And I think that in survival mode, you're not trying to learn deep lessons about growth, you're just trying to learn lessons about what can harm me. And if you're primed towards that, you're much more likely. or at least that's what I'm hypothesizing, that if you're primed towards that, you would be much more likely to just break in, your experience in that fashion.
Kahran: Interesting. Yeah. Do you feel like understanding the distinction is an important part of being in a thrive state? Like, understanding the distinction between different kinds of stress or different kinds of pain?
Divya: I think so. So this is interesting because I remember, like, when I had first started working out a few years back, I used to be like, wow, I am in pain all the time. How is this better? But over time, I realized, no, no, no, this is definitely better. Like, and not just because it's long term, it's going to be better for me, but this is a very different kind of pain. I just didn't have that resolution initially.
Kahran: Yeah, that's interesting. That reminds me, I trained with this guy in India, and he said it really interestingly because I have chronic pain in my hip. And he was kind of saying, if we can recast it to be a signal versus to be something you're fighting against, then it can be helpful to just, Then it's a signal for you.
Divya: Yeah.
Kahran: And then. So then his kind of point was, have a goal. Right? Like, have a goal that's not just being pain free, but have a different goal, and then you can use the pain as a signal against that goal. I think it was very interesting, and it is kind of. And it. And, I mean, since then, it just has generally gotten better and continued to get better. it's an interesting way of thinking about it.
Divya: This is very interesting because that's, like, overall, I don't know if this is newer. Ah. But I've heard this concept in a few different places that, like, think of your emotions as signals. And even for me, when I started thinking about that, discomfort just became, okay, something is wrong here.
Kahran: Yeah.
How do you react to certain things, and then how can you
Divya: Instead of it being like, ah, everything's falling apart. We need to close this shop down, destroy everything, and run away.
Kahran: I usually have a feeling that things are not going to work. Like, desperately not going to work right before they do work, which is kind of an interesting. Like, even as we were selecting this topic for a moment, I was like, oh, my God, this is going to be very boring. We're not going to be able to figure out anything to talk about. How are we going? And I was like, oh, maybe this is a good topic for us. That's interesting to understand. Like, yeah. How do you react to certain things, and then how can you.
How do you understand yourself and the way you react in different situations
which kind of brings me to the thing I was talking to you about last night, right. Which is like, how do you start to understand yourself and the way you react in different situations? And then how do you, like, like, now, for example, like, I know that this about myself, right. That I will tend to kind of fear. Feel this fear, fear of failure, really, intensely right before the start of something. Now understanding, because as I am more cognizant of it, it's likely that we'll become less strong. Right. Or it might become more accurate.
Divya: Yeah.
Kahran: And then, like, making sure that your compensation has not led to you completely disregarding or at least not interpreting in the best way possible because your signaling may be coming from a different point. as you're kind of, the way you treat your inputs has shifted over time. Does that make sense?
Divya: It makes sense, but it makes me think of, like, Ford had this famous code that if I asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse.
Kahran: Yeah, right.
Divya: so the general wisdom in, design, especially in user experience communities, is that the user knows when there is a problem, they just don't know what the solution is. And I think that, like, that's similar to the emotion part of your brain is like, very good at, ah, figuring out when there is a problem. Like, the rational part of your brain is very good at rationalising away problems, right? Like, the emotional part of you is a child. It's gonna throw a tantrum every single time. It's like, ah, everything's wrong. Great, everything's great, it's perfect. And like, the rational part of you is gonna try to tamper from both. Like, make it a little less intense from both sides. But I think that just understanding that when there is a signal, it needs to be processed through, at least like that is what I think I do. Especially as somebody who is. I mean, I don't feel that many symptoms anymore, but, like, as someone who was bipolar, like, had episodes quite frequently, it was very important to protect other people from my emotions that way. And it's like, I can laugh about it right now, but when you're in the middle of the thing, you have to really, really think about, okay, is the signal, like, how much of it is noise? How much of it is false amplification.
Kahran: And because a lot of times you also start to run into, like, remembered pain, you know, or just like, like carried baggage.
Divya: Hm.
Kahran: Which then can be difficult to parse as well, right? Like, because where are you, where are you reacting? Because you've, you've put it into a box that you understand, right? Where you're like, oh, I know what this is. And sometimes it happens subconsciously, right? You're like, oh, I know what this is. This is this. And then it's like, well, was it this? Or did it just seem like it was this? yeah, Gaurav, my husband was scolding me a little bit last night when we were at dinner where he was like, you know, I feel like you're, I think he said, you're very quick to conclude things about your mother's intentions. And I was like, that's interesting that. That you say that, because I think that's just something I do. Right? Like, you've, like, you spent a lot of time with your close family members, right? And you're like, oh, you're saying this. I know why you're saying this. I know you. And then you immediately start playing the script in your head. That may or may not be true. Yeah, interesting.
Divya: It also stops, like, have you ever experienced this? That when you are around, you know, let's say, friends from school, you go back to a certain period of time, and when you are around friends from college, you go back to that period of time, right?
Kahran: Oh, you mean in the way one.
Divya: Acts like themselves or feels? Like even your own feeling of yourself. Like, it changes when you are with your family. Like, it becomes slightly different. Like, there is a, period of your time where your brain just goes.
Kahran: Back to, I wonder what's gonna happen for me at my wedding. But I think you're exactly right. I was just thinking about it. Right. Especially for me. Cause there's certain people. Cause I moved a lot, so I haven't, like, hung out as much with my high school friends since I was a teenager. And then there was, like, people that. Yeah, just, you know, there was. I lived in New York in my early twenties. Right? Like, so there's, like, just there's people I knew from that period. And you behaved in a certain way.
Divya: Yeah. I always find it very interesting that your brain will try to sort of drag you back in that space. So it's not even, like, while Gaurav is right, that you just play the script for your mother. But honestly, like, you also play the script for yourself. Like, you also get, like, it's not just other people who get stuck in that script. You also get stuck in that script because she's going to say something, then you're going to behave the way that, in your brain, you have always behaved. You have assumed her intentions as well as your intentions, which is, like, both of them are untrue.
Kahran: I do feel like it's easy, at least for me, that it can be very contextual. Right? Like, I think we behave differently with each other at home or particularly in, like, this house, than, like, when we are, like, traveling or. I don't know. I was just thinking about how, like, when. So, Gaurav and I moved back to Seattle in December, and I feel like I have made different routines, than I used to have when I lived in Seattle. But I think it's because I live in a different place, so it was easier for me to not. Whereas otherwise, when I was working, in India and I would travel back to Seattle, I would generally just follow the same routines that I've always had. Right. Which is, like, I would probably spend, like, 2 hours in my room or in my bed before I would get up in the morning, right. And I, like, did not exercise very much, and I just had a certain kind of lifestyle that was very similar to the life I had when I was a teenager. And I think now, not coming back to my childhood bedroom and being here with my husband, or soon to be husband, will just be interesting. I'm sorry. It is interesting. It's interesting because it's been so much easier to create different, just ways of interacting with the world and ways of interacting with myself.
Divya: It's also probably like your brain has learned certain pathways to avoid certain kinds of pain. And even when those pain points have gone away, your pathway has been structured in just a way that you don't think, oh, I could be taking a shortcut here.
Kahran: Yeah.
Even when I went back to swimming, it was hard for me
Yeah. it's because I really don't like people asking me questions in the morning for a while. And so I know when I was younger, right, like, I would come down and then people had been awake for a while, so they would just be full of questions about, like, what are you doing today? Where are you going? Like, ah. That's very interesting. Yeah, I think that was hard for me. Like, even when I went back to swimming, it was hard because for so long, swimming had been something that I was, like, forced to do, and so it was hard for me to see or find the parts of it that I liked. I like, there was so much where I was like, oh. Like, I just didn't. Yeah, there was something where I'm like, oh, I don't want to go to the pool.
Do you feel, like psychological pain is different from emotional pain? How does it feel
Divya: Do you feel, like psychological pain is different from emotional pain, is different from physical pain? How does it feel for you?
Kahran: I think that one tends to manifest the other a lot of times.
Divya: Interesting. Same old, right?
Kahran: it's interesting. Part of what attracted me to doing yoga and, like, improving my flexibilities. I felt like it would, like that I would become more settled in my. I mean, obviously this is what yoga teachers always tell you, right? Like, you're finding balance both for your body and your mind. and I think part of that is true, but I also think. I don't know, there's, like, there's a certain branch, of yoga that started by this woman named Anna Forest, and it's called forest yoga. And, she really feels like. Or there's other people who believe in this kind of like, ideas from, But really feels that pain gets stored in the body, right. So that especially trauma will get stored in the body. And that as you, ah, are able to kind of like. Like, unlock these. These areas, like, you may re experience that trauma in some ways. Right. and I think that that is kind of what I was thinking about just there. Right. That I do think that you have associations of pain, for lack of a better word. Right. And I think that,
This book is about trauma and how it shows up in your body
Divya: Have you talked about this book, the body keeps the score?
Kahran: You mentioned it when you were reading it, but we didn't. I don't think we talked about it too much.
Divya: So, the author of this book was one of the key researchers around PTSD and complex PTSD. His research is literally around trauma and how it shows up in your body and, like, how can you.
Kahran: Very interesting.
Divya: I mean, like, it's a very, very technical book in terms of just the intended audiences, other psychologists and psychiatrists. It's not necessarily like a layperson can understand it, but it's not necessarily written for a layperson. So, like, people can. Can get triggered by it. Also, there are incidences in the book which are like, okay, this is very heavy. But it was very interesting how they talked about, like, the things that worked. Sometimes they wouldn't even know why it worked or why it didn't work. Like, for example, they had this, technique, which was almost like, rapid eye movement technique. And when they were researching this, that time, sleep researchers had not yet figured out too much about REM sleep. And so there is like an entire chapter in that book where they go more into depth about how they came around the fact that, oh, there's something to do with the rapid movement of your eyes that helps you process information. There is. We don't know why it happens, but if you recall a traumatic memory and you, like, you know, it has to be a trained person who is conducting the session, but it can really help people move past their trauma. And it was just really interesting how, people's, autoimmune disorders change or their, gut disorders change based on when. How they process their trauma. It was a very interesting read. Like when you were talking about pain gets stored in your body. Again, I don't. There is no way to non hokely say it in short form, but there is some research happening in that direction. It's almost like five years ago we got to know that, oh, the gut is connected to your brain, and if your gut is improved, your depression can go away. And it's like, this is five year ago research. We have been eating food since. We have been like, you know, since there has been life. I'm sure that there is like, you know, a lot there.
Kahran: Yeah, that is interesting.
You reminded me while you were talking of this book I read about addiction
You reminded me while you were talking of this book I read a while ago called in the realm of hungry ghosts. Have I ever told you about this? It's a book about addiction. It's very interesting. Again, it's kind of not so much written for the layperson, but it's very dense. But it's, a, ah, psychiatrist who is working with patients, who are living on the streets, who have various addictions. And what he kind of explores is how, people kind of substitute addictions. It's really interesting how it's not necessarily like, even though we have a big focus on substance and substance dependency and helping people break substance dependency in overcoming their addiction, a lot of times that is not enough because there's some underlying reason that has led to them having an addiction and that they can easily. It's very easy for you to just substitute something else. And then socially, there's certain things that we feel like are acceptable addictions. Right. People who work, obsessively, people who exercise obsessively. We've decided that those are socially acceptable. But, you know, other ones are bad. You know, you shouldn't drink too much coffee or like, you shouldn't. I don't know, I guess those ones also have substance dependencies. But, you know, it's fitness also in a lot of ways is a substance dependency, because you are creating material, you're creating a certain reaction in your body. Actually, my brother in law was talking a few days ago about how his grandmother, who lived to like, be 94, never exercised a day in her life, right? Like she never went out for a run or something like that. She just did exercise through living and she lived to be 94, right? Like, like this notion that kind of like, you know, we have to go out and do 2030 minutes of exercise every day is just an interesting notion. We're creating a pathway for people to do, I guess, to deal with their addictions, but necessarily, I don't know, I guess, to manage, I would say, more than to actually understand where it's this behavior, coming from.
Divya: Do you know about the rat study on addiction?
Kahran: No.
Divya: Okay, so, I don't remember when it was. But there was a study done on rats, by the way, I'm quoting so many random neurological and psychological stuff as if I know too much about it. But, so there was this study done on rats. So basically, they, gave cocaine access to one group. And, like, basically they can press a button, and they would be like, you know, whatever would come out would have cocaine on it. And those rats od'd. They just had too much cocaine. They just, like, press the button. Something would come out. They would eat it. They would press the button again. That would happen. And then there was a different cage where they could get access to cocaine. Or they could go and play with other rats. And those just went and played with other rats.
Kahran: Interesting.
Divya: And, like, this was very preliminary study. And basically, we're making a personal problem out of something which is more systemic and social in nature. Like addiction is a remnant of your social circuitry, is not satisfied. I mean, like, this is oversimplification of the research. Of course, there are multiple factors. There could be. This was a rat study, not necessarily a human study, but you can think about it also in other correlatory ways. Like how in heterosexual relationships, when men lose their partner in later ages, their life expectancy reduces by a lot. While for women, it slightly increases. And it's because, like, men generally, especially straight men generally tend to have, like, their social net as their female partner. That's the only person who they have any emotional intimacy with. While for women, they have a network in most cases.
Kahran: Interesting. You know, there's that funny thing about golf courses, right?
Divya: Uh-huh.
Kahran: That, like, the world has to suffer through all these millions of acres being devoted to golf. Just because men can't ask other men to go for a walk.
Divya: Oh, man, that's. That's dark.
Kahran: Yeah.
Divya: Wow.
Kahran: Very funny, though.
Divya: Do you feel like it's true?
Kahran: Oh, yeah. Like, it's. It's not socially, especially in, like. Like, kind of, I don't know, western, influence cultures. I can't remember. Like, it was a big thing when walking meetings were, like, in vogue, like, ten years ago. Because it was like, oh, we're gonna go for a walking meeting. Oh, wow.
Divya: This is incredible. Because now that you're making me think. When I was in college, I used to go on walks with my friends so often, but the guy friends would never go on walks with each other per se. They especially, like, one on, like, a walk meant you're hanging out one on one with your friend.
Kahran: Yeah.
Divya: And, like, in a public, social, but personal situation where like, guys wouldn't do that with each other in India.
Kahran: It's like, I think it's a big smoking culture that people use for it, right. It's like, oh, let's go get, like, some cigarettes. And then, like, people just, even if they don't smoke, they will just go for getting the cigarettes and then standing outside with people. It was very interesting when I started working in India because I eventually, like, started socially smoking because I was like, well, this is one way to, like, hang out with people. Luckily, I didn't continue smoking, but, it was interesting.
Divya: I feel like we didn't close anything today, but all of these are, like, really interesting notions, right.
When people feel loneliness, they're missing something, right
Because there's also this aspect of social pain, which is, like, neither. Like, it is slightly emotional and it's slightly psychological, but it is something that I don't even know if we have the vocabulary for it as a culture.
Kahran: Yeah, I don't know if I know exactly what you're thinking. What do you mean when you say that?
Divya: You know, when people feel loneliness, they're missing something. Like, it's a signal for something is missing in your life. M but we don't have enough definition on what is missing.
Kahran: Interesting, right?
Divya: Like, sometimes people would be like, yeah, I have people in my life and I still feel lonely. And there there are people who would absolutely enjoy solitude. The same person could feel lonely in a group of friends, and they could be perfectly fine if they are alone. Like, there are so many complex, like, emotional things around that because we started talking about addiction, and from there, my brain went into, oh, there's like, this aspect of social pain.
Kahran: But isn't that, like, at least in the three categories you were giving earlier? I feel like that's psychological pain, right? Psychological, emotional, physical.
Divya: I mean, of course you could put into that, but I don't know if, like, that would capture all of the aspects of it because there is this interpersonal or, like, you know, relational aspect to this that's really interesting.
Kahran: It's like wanting to fit in with the group. It's that drive that we have.
Divya: Yeah. Or with someone in particular. You know, like, you must have done this also, sometimes you meet a friend of yours, and it's a very satisfying interaction. And sometimes you meet the same friend, and it's a very dissatisfying interaction.
Kahran: Yeah.
Divya: And sometimes its so bad that it has eroded away some of the capital that you had built together.
Kahran: Yeah, thats interesting. Yeah. I dont know if I know exactly what that is. Youre right. It is something, it is kind of a pain in itself, but it usually is something you dont really think about. And youre just like, oh, you know, that was not the best. And then you change your behavior slightly because you avoid it in the future.
Divya: Yeah.
Kahran: Very interesting.
Divya: Maybe we can discuss more about this next time, because I have like, this, as you were saying, I got reminded of this, like, amazing episode from Radiolab about how words help you think.
Kahran: More interesting.
Divya: But next time. We'll talk about that next time.
Kahran: We'll discuss that next time.
Divya: Awesome. Good chat.
Kahran: Good luck.
Divya: Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes, and you can find a link to it in the show notes.
