Thinking on Podcasts & How We Listen

Divya: I feel like in each one of these, we revisit

Divya: Hi. I'm Divya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Karin.

Divya: And this is thinking on thinking.

Kahran: wait, what was our first one?

Divya: Success. Oh, how do you measure success?

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: When you hear. See, it's great. Now, when you listen to the episode, you'll be like, what? We talked about this. So surprising.

Kahran: That's very funny. I mean, I feel like in each one of these, we've said, like, oh, we should revisit one. You know, revisit this more deeply. Right? Or, like, each time we've ended with a thought that we would revisit it from a different angle. So we could do that. or we can wait and do that in a few more.

Why do people listen to podcasts? There has to be some continuity

What are your thoughts? I mean, thinking from our poor listeners point of view, there has to be some continuity at some point.

Divya: I mean, I don't think so. I don't think people listen to. That could be an interesting thing to think about. Why do people listen to podcasts like, there is. When you think about a media, there is a certain set of expectations that you bring to it. Any form, you bring a certain set of expectations to it, even sub forms. Right. So, like, if we were telling a story, right, like, if we were doing something, like, serial, we would need some continuity. But how much continuity does it need when we are just talking about things that have been on our mind recently that we have been discussing?

Matt Walker's podcast is looking at sleep from different perspectives

Kahran: See, I really enjoy, like, have you listened to Matt Walker's podcast?

Divya: I haven't.

Kahran: Okay, so it's about sleep. It's looking at sleep from different, just like, different aspects, right. Like, how do different things affect your sleep? How do your behaviors affect your sleep? So, like, how do things, like, you know, you consume food, alcohol, cannabis, melatonin. Right? Like, how can those affect your sleep? And then how can, like, different behaviors affect your sleep? But there's some amount of continuity. So he tends to do, like, he'll do three episode arcs or maybe a four episode arc on a particular topic. And then while, like, if you do listen, I tend to binge things as I listen to them. Right. So I'll listen to, like, maybe six, and then not listen for a while. Then I listen to another five. So then, if you do it like that, you also will hear there's some continuity just in the like. Cause he has obviously talked about that topic already, so he's aware that he's talked about it. I don't know. It kind of depends on how you think people listen to it. I think shorter ones, like his is twelve to 15 minutes, and some of them are as short as, like maybe six minutes or eight minutes. Right? Like those. I think they suit themselves well, where. Especially if you're like, oh, I heard an insight. It was interesting to me. I want to hear more of those kinds of insights. Then you're going to listen to more of them. And I feel like we're also building that kind of podcast. So having some sort of, like, I don't know, that's more just an argument for thematic continuity than anything else.

Divya: That's interesting because. So I'm thinking about a bunch of podcasts that I listen to, right? like, if you look at knowledge projects, he will be talking to different people. He might interview Matthew Walker in one episode, talking about sleep, and then he might interview Esther Perel, talking about relationships in another episode. And then he might talk to, you know, somebody who's in the tech world or somebody who's in the finance world, and like, you know, somebody who's an athlete. Like, he talks to all sorts of different people, but then, what he's interested in is just what. How people are thinking rather than what they're thinking about.

Kahran: Well, would you, do you ever listen to his podcast one after another? Because I will not. I usually don't listen to the knowledge. Like, as soon as I listen to one, I won't listen to another one immediately. Right. like maybe in the next day or in a few days. you may be up to three of them.

Divya: Yeah. I am fully caught up on knowledge project, so I can't really answer that question. But I don't think that I ever listen to any podcast. Same episodes, 1 hour, like, you know, sequentially. Even when it is story driven podcasts. Like, I remember only the Magnus archives was a podcast that I binged. I just binged through all five seasons of it within like a period of maybe two and a half weeks or something like that. interesting.

Kahran: Like, even like something like Sandman or. Audiobooks are different.

Divya: Audiobooks are different. It's also a different app.

Kahran: I see. Interesting.

Divya: So I generally like, you know, try to structure it. Like, I'd listen to. I have this weird heuristic in my mind where I listen to one sort of, very deep and high density podcast. So it could be knowledge project, it could be, design matters. It could be 99% invisible. It would be just something which is, which has like, you know, deep content. Then there would be one which is more journalistic in nature. So it could be radio lab, or, it could be something like endless thread or historical blindness. Like, more, they're talking about a topic, and they're just going deep diving on that topic. But, like, it's not something which is more generally applicable to life. And then I would have, like, a fiction podcast and a light podcast, and I would cycle in this for loop constantly.

Kahran: What's a, like? So a fiction podcast is a story, and then a light podcast is, like, comedic?

Divya: Yeah, it could be comedic. It could be just, like, people chit chatting with each other, or it could be, like, something which is more, emotional or psychological in nature. So, like, you know, I listened to a couple of therapy podcasts, like the one with Laurie Gottlieb and the one with, Esther Perel. Like, I listen to those. Or modern love, like, stuff like that, which is more, which does not involve as much cognitive energy. Let me put it like that. It doesn't involve as much cognitive energy. It just acquires emotional energy. So that's, like, the fourth podcast, and then I go back to the heavy one. So I, like, I. I mean, this is also different behavior than I guess. Like, I didn't ever think that people would listen to the same podcast continuously.

Kahran: Oh, even, like, even when it's the same. Like, for example. So Matt Walker, I think he has three episodes on your body and caffeine, right? So even in that. And, like, one of them, I think, is literally six minutes. So, you know, of course I'm going to listen to all three.

Divya: But then I think that, like, there's also this factor of, I don't really have a lot of short podcasts. Low. I see not lower cabinet of curiosities by the same guy who made lore and memory palace are the only two podcasts that have episodes smaller than 15 minutes in my feed. Everything else is longer.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: So, how do you listen to your podcast now? I'm curious.

Do you consume your media similarly? Do you read like that

I didn't even think that other people listened to them differently.

Kahran: Yeah, that's really just interesting to me. I'm like, now I'm also very curious. Do you consume your media similarly? Do you read like that? You'll read a little bit of one book and then another book, and then. And then go back to the first one. Yes. How cool.

Divya: I have at a time, I think, four or five books parallelly running. This is not including audiobooks.

Kahran: no. I think part of the reason why I find it so interesting is because many people say, you should read before you go to bed. I've never been someone who would read well before they go to bed, because the kind of things I read. I will just stay up all night reading. Right. And I know that's not true of, everything I read, right. But the kind of stuff that I'd want to read before I go to bed are, like, books I like to read because at the end of the day, you want to read something that makes you happy. And those kind of books because of how I like to engage with my media. Right. Like, I would just keep consuming it. I've always liked the games. I've always loved to play. I've always loved to play them for the narrative. Again, I would just play them m until 04:00 in the morning. But, yeah. So, it's just an interesting notion of kind of being cognizant of like, oh, this is going to engage my brain in this way. And then that's why I was curious about if you always follow this kind of, like, stepping down sort of engagement with your media, because, you've engaged yourself cognitively and maybe emotionally, and then you're kind of engaging yourself, maybe a more lightweight, and then finally you're kind of getting to a place where it's like, it's just kind of like, like, light hearted and, like, you're just engaging, like, you know, the smallest kind of parts of your. Maybe small is more of a judgmental word that I meant, but, like, arousing, sort of. Yeah.

Divya: Least cognitively taxing.

Kahran: Cognitive. Taxing is much better because I think arousing is also a bad word because. Right, like, sometimes, like, very comedic things are very exciting, too, right. Like, but they're. But they're not cognitively taxing in that same way, they kind of let you relax.

I think we have not given ourselves a good flow state in our relaxation time

which brings me to a really interesting thing I was just, hearing about. I think in that podcast you and I both listened to, we have not given ourselves a good flow state in our relaxation time, right. Or we haven't enabled that for ourselves. Right. And I think that was just very interesting to me to think about because I think something like comedy, right, like, you can get into those, right? But I think a lot of what we sometimes. Right. But, like, a lot of what we can't, what we do, engagement is. It's very. It's just hard to really, like, like, get yourself into a state where you are kind of using your brain, but you're also relaxing. so I think you have a really good system.

Divya: At least.

Learning philosophy made me question how I am consuming knowledge

Okay, so, like, this is maybe a bit of a side story, but, like, I have generally worked with people, and I've almost always found it very difficult to convince people or even to explain to them why I don't like to work on a single thing at a time. Generally, people are like, oh, if you work with our company, there will be enough work. You will be fully engaged. You know, like, your brain will be fully engaged. They're not wrong. There is a lot that needs to be done if you're like, you know, building a company. And I'm happy to, like, take on a lot of things also, but I always find it very non nourishing way of working. Like, if I'm doing a lot of different things, I always, I find that my brain is like, oh, but we can connect these dots. And we can connect those dots. Yesterday, when I was listening to, Kunal Shah's episode on knowledge project, that's what he was talking about, how you should learn broadly, because when your brain needs to come up with insights, it needs a lot of different dots. And I also, when I was younger, I always used to think that philosophy is a load of garbage. It's not useful. Why does anybody need philosophy? But then the more I learned it, the more I realized, oh, this is a different way of thinking. And then it just made me think more about, how am I thinking? You know, how am m I thinking on thinking? And I think that also made me feel like, okay, it's a faster way to generate insights if you are going more broadly and if you're, like, exposing yourself to a lot of different information.

Kahran: Are you saying philosophy specifically, or you think just consuming media in that way?

Divya: Consuming media in general way? But I think just learning philosophy made me question how I am consuming knowledge. It just made me think about knowledge. Nothing else had made me think about knowledge itself or something. I think we were talking a few days back about what is normative. It also made me think about philosophy internally, made me ask those questions. When we are assuming something is normal, it's because somebody made up those rules and everything is made up. And it's very, you know, fish have no word for water kind of a thing. So just learning to recognize that there is water and then what is water? And asking questions around it, that's really interesting.

Kahran: I think, you know, if you, if you generally, study liberal arts in the US, right? Like, almost everyone has to take some philosophy, like an introduction to philosophy course. And they're almost always taught in a way of historical view, right, to understand how things have evolved from one to another. And I think it's, it's very, it's like it can be helpful, right? Because it's a way for people to connect the ideas and understand, you know, within trends that were otherwise happening. But it's really interesting because you don't end up learning it in the way of what are the questions that I have about kind of life and living and the way we act? And then how have these been explored through time in different ways, because you're learning it in a historical narrative and then more as like, movements. And in a lot of ways, I think a lot of art, at least the way I learned art, was taught in this way, right? In movements in opposition to each other. And because you learn it in that way, you don't. Yeah, it's just really interesting because as I was listening to you, I was thinking that this was not my experience when I learned to, you know, about philosophers and philosophy, but I could see how it'd be really nice to have that experience. interesting.

Divya: I mean, it's also, I think that, like, one thing is like, when you're self learning anything, like, you can think about it. Anything that you have self learned, you will always have like, a much richer understanding of it, even though to start off with, it's way harder. Like, if you, you know, like if you learned philosophy in school, it was probably way easier for you to start in it. It took me almost three years of actively picking up philosophy courses or books and then dropping them because, oh my God, who wants to read this boring stuff? Kant is so, like, unimaginably dry. Why am I reading this? Right? And, just like, pushing through all of that three years is a long period of time to push yourself through something, but then once you do get into it, you actually get into it, then you just like it. Right?

Kahran: Interesting.

People have different expectations from different forms of media, right

Divya: Well, yeah, so, like, because we were discussing about, like, you know, forms and, you know, your expectations that come from it. So, like, initially, I was just assuming that people have different expectations from different forms of media. You know, when I go to a movie, I expect this thing from a movie. When I go to a fiction book, I expect this thing from a fiction book. And even in fiction, you know, maybe like, why, I'll expect something and, and a fantasy book, I'll expect something else. But clearly, I mean, we consume a lot of similar podcasts. Not a lot, but like, we consume enough similar podcasts, and it's interesting that you don't have the same experience. So, like, where do you think you derive your, this is what I expect from this piece of media, and this is how I want to consume it. Where does that originate?

Kahran: look, I like, to understand things deeply. especially, I guess, really, it's people, right. Generally, I feel this way about people, right. That, like, when I meet someone, I'm, like. I tend to like. Like, I will. I think the joke one of my friends had when I was much younger is that, like, I'm always having a new best friend, and I think, and because a lot of the podcasts that I really enjoy are about, like that, right? Or they're about, like, people. They're sharing. They're sharing insights, but they're also sharing insights in a way that is, evocative, maybe, or just, like, aware of. They're sharing insights in a way that helps you understand their nature. Right. I, And I think that is really interesting to me. and also there's, like, this element of, like, I don't enjoy as much closing the book, if you will. Right. I enjoy knowing that there is more that I can kind of come back to and more that I can learn. I don't know, I think that's why. That's why I think longer stories and, like, times where you can engage with people longer are very interesting to me. I don't know, it's hard. I don't have maybe as crisp of the definition of it yet, unfortunately. So we'll have to revisit it at some. Some later point, but articulated a little bit better.

Divya: interesting.

How much of how you consume your reading influence how you write

So do you think that when you are consuming media, and then when you are creating it, right. So, like, for example, when you are writing, how much of how you consume your reading influence how you write? Because your model, like, my assumption here is your model of how a reader is going to see this is going to come from how you see this.

Kahran: Yeah, I think that's. There's definitely truth to that, right. Like, I will read books many times, right. especially books I really like, but I will always tend to not read certain parts. One of the first books I read a ton of times was the Lord of the Rings, right. But I have, like, very little patience for reading songs, so I've always skimmed the songs, right, even when they're multiple pages. And, like. And I also have very little patience for, like, long, elaborate. It's just like, if the text is too long of a paragraph, I just can't read that much paragraph at once. Right. You give me small paragraphs, I'll be happy. So if it's a really long paragraph, I'm going to, like, read it kind of quickly. Right. But I'll tend to. I like to read dialogue right. I'll always read all the dialogue, and I do think it comes up in, in my writing. Right. Like, I know some of the feedback I've received in some of the classes I've done. It's just like, you've created this, this big, beautiful world, but it's not really clear what it is, right. Like, there. Like, especially for people who, need more just descriptors to understand what. What they're imagining. I don't really need that. Right. Like, I am able to kind of, like, create whole stories in my head with very little sort of descriptors. So I'm much more excited about what these people are doing that I'm now running around within my head than I am, like, oh, so fine, he's 4ft tall, not 8ft tall. Like, whatever, you know, like, these kind of, like, logistics don't really matter.

Divya: I mean, four and 8ft are quite different. I'm sure that that logistic would matter. Well, like, but I get what you mean.

Kahran: Yeah. To continue in my lord of the Rings example, like, I always imagined these, like, the ents being like massive trees, right? Like the big trees that you like, the giant sequoias of the California. Right. But then, like, the way they portrayed them in the, in the movies. And I think maybe it's probably true to the books too. I've never actually double checked, right. Is that they're like 20 foot tall trees, which is totally reasonable. Right. It's a very reasonable size tree, but it's very different than a 200 foot tree.

Divya: But it didn't really.

Kahran: I don't know, it just. I don't feel sad that I misinterpreted it. Probably because I didn't read that. Because I just don't care so much about the, I care about the way, like, I've read enough of it to understand how I should feel and how I do feel, and then that is enough for me. I don't really need to know. I don't know the details of it, if that makes sense.

So then I have an additional question. I really feel like I'm getting into long stories

Divya: So then I have an additional question. I agree with that part. Like, I only care about how it makes me feel. Right. But then what keeps you in a long story? Because I also feel that way that I only care about how it makes me feel, but that's because of that. I really feel like I'm getting into long stories. Short stories is where my patience stops.

Kahran: Because these people are going on adventures together. Right. I don't know how to better say it, but it's like, yeah, why did I love Sandman so much? Because you fall in love with this character and, like, the way he approaches the world and how he thinks, and then you guys go on adventures and you go into situations you would have never really imagined you, going into. And I think of people. I mean, I think people do this about public Personas all the time, too, right? Which, like, it's like a big thing about fan bases, right, where you kind of, like, you imagine these people in your head in a certain way. Let me say that a little bit more clearly. Like, I think how I was just describing for a fictional character, right, but I think similarly, right, that people have a conception of famous people in their heads, right, where, oh, you know, we would be friends. Because you have these traits, and it's like the way that. It's the Persona that people are. Are putting.

Matt Walker goes on a journey with his podcast, which is entertaining

so I think that's why I get so deeply engaged with Matt Walker, right. Cause I have this picture of him in my head as being this kind of slightly disorganized Englishman who's very excited about his work, and it's just kind of entertaining to see what journey he is going on. And I also, one of the things I've noticed and is amusing to me is he clearly records his commercials, repeatedly. Cause you can see how his tone and his engagement with them is changing over time and how he's. I know you guys must be a little tired of hearing about athletic greenshouse, and I think it's probably a part because he's a little bit tired of saying the same thing. So then he changed it after that. And I think it's just. But it's interesting, right? Because you're like, you have this kind of conception of this person, then it's kind of amusing to kind of see them going on this podcast journey, both in terms of what they're saying and in how they're saying it. So I feel like that whole side of it, to me, it's similar to how I feel about going on a journey with my fictional characters. I like going on these journeys, with my podcast and my other kind of mediums, as well.

Much of history is about big movements versus individual people, right

See, I brought it back kind of.

Divya: Let'S say, like, whenever we encounter a problem that we both have to work on together, I think that you almost always take the person approach, and I almost always take the theme feel slash. What is the sort of cognitive model of this thing approach? It's very interesting that it's also reflective of how we consume the things that we consume. Like, what is this about versus who is this about? It's gross generalization, but still, it's also.

Kahran: One of these, like, great debates of history, right? How much of history is about big movements versus individual people, right? Like, if the people weren't there, would the movements have happened? Would the events have happened anyway?

Divya: Yes. So what side of it do you follow?

Kahran: Oh, I don't. I mean, I, never did very well in history. Was that my, I mean, I think that, yes, there are, like, larger movements, but I do think that there are, like, basically, like, the movement is going to send you in a certain direction, but depending on which person gets picked up by that movement, that outcome can be very different. Right? Like, I think, for example, in the US, the US has been going on a certain direction, right? Sarah Palin was a vice president candidate. And then, you know, you can very easily argue that Donald Trump came from the same sort of base and, like, it was going in a certain direction, right? But now, if there had been a different candidate that was able to harness that energy in a slightly different direction, right? Like, just maybe someone with a slightly different background who maybe not grown up in real estate, and real estate is just a place where, yeah, you do bend a lot of rules, right? Like, that is how real estate unfortunately works in America and in a lot of countries, because there's so much money available, you can just get something rezoned so far, you know, one stroke of a pen, and the, you know, values change so much. So. Yeah, right. Like, I think if it had been a different person, the country would probably be in a very different place, because so much of, I think we only know, especially at a society level, we only know what we know, right? And I think the ability to understand unknown unknowns is really, really hard. at a more macro level, I don't know, I'm just thinking these words I'm saying, but I think that is true. And so I think that we now people would be more cognizant of what does it mean to have a real populist candidate? And what can that mean when a populist candidate doesn't really love the rule of law and have that kind of, like, understanding of unwritten norms that a lot of people do, who come into the political sphere now, people have more cognizance of what that means. But at the time, it was an unknown unknown. And I think there, it can just have these kind of outcomes that people don't really understand, we can't predict. And then, yeah, you do have these larger movements. But then because of these, like, smaller factors, they can kind of just have these unexpected twists to the direction.

Divya: I have always, maybe always is the. Not the right word, but I, for the longest time, felt it's more about the movement of the society rather than about the people. Because you'd almost always find that it's white men who are those people who are at the center of those move, sort of, let's say, like, direction vectors for that movement. It's almost always white men. And it's very difficult for me to imagine that it would all like. Or in India, it would be upper class men. It is just almost impossible to imagine that. Really. Would it always be only these people when there is. So, for example, if you think about. Okay, let's think about, like, you know, us music scene for, you know, since forever, so much of it has come from, like, african american culture. Right? Like, african people brought so much music with them and musicality, and then, you know, they gave birth to so many, like, blues and r and b and jazz and hip hop and rap. So many different genre are just started by black people. But generally, like, from whatever I have heard, it's almost, when the names. It's black culture has generated these movements and their names are of white people who are like. There is this weird sort of contradiction that almost always makes me feel not comfortable with that idea of it's individual people. It's. There are people who manage to cash in on the flow of the tide, but the tide was already flowing in a certain direction, is how I feel about it.

Kahran: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I just feel like that the effect of certain people, what people do when cashing in can then have later outcomes that are.

Divya: That is very fair. I mean, like, if it was someone other than Donald Trump, probably, like, us history right now would be looking. It's not history yet. Yet, but, yeah, the US would be looking different.

Kahran: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's other examples. Right? Like, you know, would. Would India have had a different woman prime minister? Right? Probably not. Yeah.

Divya: Yeah.

Divya: Yeah. But good chat.

Kahran: Yes. I'm not sure what we should say. The topic was people versus.

Divya: We'll see. No, no, no. The topic was around understanding, like, how we consume forms and how that affects how we,

Kahran: Okay, we did explore a couple of different places. I hope this.

Divya: Yeah, awesome.

Kahran: Good talk.

Divya: Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our, theme music is by Steve Gomes, and, you can find a link to it in the show notes.