Thinking on Cognitive vs Emotional Experiences & Models for Failure

Divya: When do you go from doing a foolish thing to becoming a fool

Kahran: When you're saying something is foolish, is there a, connotation of the understanding with the person or the intent that the person had when making the judgment or the decision? Or is it entirely just based on the circumstance? Like, can an external observer understand that something was foolish, or can only the person involved understand what was foolish?

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Karin.

Divya: And this is thinking on m thinking. Like, when do you go from doing a foolish thing to becoming a fool? There has to be some transition between the two things, right? So, like, for example, just making a creative thing does not make you a creative person, but there is something that makes you a creative person. And so what is that? And at least in my mind, it was like, oh, so if you are able to have the mindset of a creative person, different kinds of, Like, quote unquote categories of people will have different mental models and different mindsets, and if you could have that, then you would be that person. So then what is the mindset that a fool has?

Kahran: Okay.

Divya: It's like, it's not someone who makes a lot of mistakes, because everybody makes mistakes. It's not even someone who makes the same mistake again, because sometimes you're not being a fool just because you don't recognize what was the root cause of the problem last time. You could make the same mistake two or three times as well. Right? So it's then, like, at least as I was, like, thinking more and more about it, I realized that I don't have a solid model of failure. Like, what does good failure look like? I don't know.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: It's foolish or stupid to have bad failure, and it's okay to have good failure. Like, good failure will result in growth, but bad failure wouldn't.

Kahran: Is that what the distinction is, at.

Divya: Least, like, the way I was trying to sort of the thread that I was kind of. Because I'm, like, telling you how I was, like, thinking about this thing. You can tell that I've just pulled a thread, and I'm just, like, pulling on it and on it. Where does this go? Right.

Kahran: I'm just kind of, like, well, I just. I'm curious, like, what makes something foolish? Is it the knowledge? So you know about this, like, concept in, like, criminal justice, about, like, guilty mind, right?

Divya: No.

Kahran: Oh, unfortunately, I don't know it well enough to really explain it well. But basically, there's this kind of notion of, like, should a crime be treated the same way if the person, had. If the person's intent was different? And the kind of famous example is like, you know, someone who is stealing bread to feed their children is, should that crime be treated the same way as someone who is just stealing for, you know, joy? Right. So that's where I was kind of wondering. Like, when you're saying something is foolish, is there a, connotation of the understanding that the person or the intent that the person had when making the jujdez. Excuse me, the judgment or the decision? Or is it entirely just based on the circumstance? Like, can an external observer understand that something was foolish, or can only the persons involved understand that it was foolish?

Divya: So it's an interesting thing, because I think that I have done enough things that from outside would appear foolish, but I don't really care as long as they don't the internal affect. So, like, when we go through something, we have a cognitive experience of it, and we have an affective experience of it. As long as I don't have the affect of I was a fool here, it doesn't matter to me if it seems from the outside that it's stupid. It's like, you know, for example, when people believe in flat earth, which is obviously a foolish thing to believe in, because earth is not flat, they don't have the affective experience of being foolish. And when most people are trying to resolve the problem for them, they are trying to give them cognitive information. But, like, that's not where the sort of discrepancy is. They don't feel like they're wrong. So it doesn't matter what you tell them. Like, very few people have the bridge between their affective experiences and cognitive experiences. It requires way too much self awareness.

Divya: Somehow I'm feeling like this was way more insightful than what I was initially saying.

Kahran: That's funny. No, that's interesting, because when you were initially talking, I was thinking that it's really just a question of framing, right? Like, whether something is foolish or not foolish.

Gaurav: I don't have a universal model of failure

because another frame I could draw is just like, are you taking actions that are in accordance with the, the self that you are trying to put into the world, right. And then you can kind of argue that you are taking actions in accordance with that self, right? Like, that you're being cognizant in that approach, that then nothing you're doing is foolish because it's serving your end goals, right. But there are certain things that are, I think, kind of like aware. Like you're saying, right. They're cognitive awareness, right. They're like knowledge that of the world or knowledge of how things work. There's some great examples in America right now, right, where, like, people know that. The fact that, like, people know that we have more gun violence in this country than any other country, in the world, right. especially when you start to look at it like, per capita basis and, zero into it. But despite the kind of, like, cognitive knowledge, right, of programs that have been successful in other places and, like, things that we could know would be successful in kind of reducing this burden, there's a. There's a big disconnect in that ability to kind of say, oh, you know, yes, this is something I understand. And I guess, like, according to the scientific method, it should apply in this situation, too. but the ability to kind of internalize that and then say, yes, you know, it's something I believe is very limited.

Divya: honestly, our emotional brain has had millions of years to evolve. Our, cognitive brain has had hundreds of thousands. It's not gonna win out. It's just like, the emotional brain is way stronger. And that's why I think, like, a lot of these identity related things also become way more solid, which is also why, because I know internally, the effect of feeling like I am stupid is way more stronger for me. okay, let me put it like this. I can start a lot of new things, but I always have to develop a new model of how I would look at failure here. And I realized that I don't have a universal model of failure. And if I had a universal model of failure, the initial activation energy that would be required to do something new would be just, like, drastically reduced because I have, like, a heuristic that I could just, like, pull from.

Kahran: And you feel like failure? You can't define failure by what? It's not like I'm saying if you know what success is. Can you just, can you define, like, carve out an inverse somewhere? Or is that too big of a.

Divya: I mean, so if I were to give an example, like, recently, so I'd been running pretty slowly compared to all the people around me, right? Like, my brother runs at, what, like, six something pace. My sister is also at, like, you know, eight something pace. And I was running it, like, whatever, nine something, ten something. And I didn't have the change in my mindset until I realized, okay, I need to stop running for pace because I just always felt like a failure. And here's the thing. If I run faster than my sister, then I'll compare with my brother. If I run faster than my brother, then I'll compare with Gaurav. And I'm sure Gaurav has other people that he compares to who run more than him, who run faster than him. Right? Like, and I know that even as a game designer, I know that these numbers, your brain will fall in that trap. So, like, at least I have one damn against it. I know that if I construct a model of failure here, then I wouldn't write a failure. And success, of course, they go hand in hand. Many are creating situation based. Like, that's why I arrived at, like, I want to have a generalized model of failure. So I don't have a model yet. I just have, like, a couple of things in it. So the first thing was, I'm allowed to change my mind. I know it sounds very simple, but, like, somehow, at least for me, whenever I'm arriving, like, when I'm able to arrive at things from, like, this unraveling of a thought pattern kind of a thing, it just, like, anchors more deeply in my mind. I'm able to, like, find it more actionable, but, like, so that's where I'm at. And a corollary of the, you're allowed to change your mind is also, you're allowed to evaluate where you're at whenever you want. Interesting, because that's also another question where, like, we sort of like it. It makes us. At least in my case, it makes me feel stupid sometimes if I have to change my mind, which makes it so that sometimes I don't even evaluate. Am I in a position where I would like to change my m mind because I don't want to think about what the implications could be.

Kahran: And, like, the net result of all this is it increases the amount of energy required to start something, because, you know, all of this going in.

Divya: Yeah. So now if I know how to fail in a weird way, I would just not be worried about going into things like, you know, it would be the cost of starting something would be so cheap if I was just gonna say, oh, I can just not do this. Also, that's also an option. I'm not gonna think that I'm a quitter. I'm not gonna think that I'm a loser. I'm also not gonna label myself as I am someone who sticks through.

Kahran: So something I do, which I'm only realizing now that we're talking about this is, like, in those kinds of situations, I tend to just set myself either very loose goals or very. No, I tend. I'll be clear. Right. I think I like to believe I set myself very attainable goals I think what I tend to do is I set myself very loose goals. So then it's like, I can feel like I'm making progress because I've left it kind of broad enough that, like, a lot of things can make me feel like I'm making progress. do you feel like something like that would work for you, or do you feel like that just is a dangerous path to.

Divya: No. Like, In Nike Runtlove, Coach Bennett says that you should measure success in as many ways as possible.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: So that. I don't think like, that, I think is a very healthy attitude, but I feel like success is more. When you are into the thing already, failure is more of an anxiety thing. Right. Like, you're worried about whether you're gonna do it or not.

Kahran: Interesting.

Having a model for failure can help you deal with failure, right

Divya: M. I think this is where it also sort of runs into what we wanted to talk about today, because it's like having a model for failure initially, right? Like, if I just have an independent model of, like, you know, what does failure mean? What does good failure mean? What does bad failure mean? Right? Like, how can you win at failure or fail at failure? like, if I had a model for that, then that is so universally applicable in my life that even if it takes a while for me to come up with the principles that apply there, it's gonna, like, give me compounding returns. Things are gonna be so much easier. Like, overall, my requirement for activation energy in life is gonna be much lower.

Kahran: I feel like that side of it might be the right side to think about, which is, like, what is good failure and what is bad failure? I'm not 100% convinced that there is bad failure. I still kind of think it's a frame thing. I mean, I understand what you're saying. Right. But, because it's not the model that I was, I had thought with. It's just, like, it's interesting for me to think about.

Divya: You could also call it optimal or suboptimal. Like, whatever words work better would be fine. But I think that, like, there are. There are better ways to fail, and I want to have a model of, like, what. How do I evaluate if I am failing in a better way?

Kahran: Okay. You know, if I think about it from a different perspective, I think I was thinking about it a lot from, like, a personal perspective. But if I think about it from, like, somewhat, like. Like, maybe like, a more working perspective, I can more think about the way you're saying, like, if we even just thought about, like, you know, we spent a couple of months, like, building out an offering for museums. And I think it was, in some ways, I would think about it as, like, it definitely hasn't been a success. And I think part of it is that I don't really like to couch things as failures, so it's hard for me to accept that. Right. But I think, yeah, right. It hasn't been like, if I had just looked and said, what goals did we have? And then which of those goals have we achieved? Like, it's kind of clear that this was not a success. Right. It really kind of was a failure. Now, is it a good failure or bad failure? I think that is kind of a. It's a question of what you do next. In my mind.

Divya: Yeah, you are very right. So it's almost like having a game plan for what to do when the outcome isn't what you want is more like how to deal with failure rather than. I mean, at least in my head, I was still at the point of, okay, first you have to acknowledge that you are not getting the outcomes that you want and that you have some agency in trying to change those. I mean, this happens a lot when you're building things also. Right. You're just like, I don't want to look at this. I don't want to think about it. It's. You just go into an ostrich mode, close my eyes. Maybe it wouldn't happen if I'm not looking at it. But, like, you can't solve it until you look at it. So looking at it is the first, like, diagnosis is the first step. If you don't want to diagnose, then you wouldn't, like. No. Interesting. Yeah. What to do next would be the right thing to think about.

Kahran: and I'm thinking about, like, I think, yeah, there's a lot of places like that people don't do that. Like, I had pursued starting a company previously. I'm not sure if, I think I must have told you about this, but, with a close friend of mine, who studied, epidemiology and then, cognitive neuroscience. And we were, looking at just how music affects, people's moods, particularly. I'd seen a documentary showing just like, how people with Alzheimer's and dementia, had had really some amazing outcomes. playing music, both like, listening to music from, it seems like, there's some research that shows that your musical taste is kind of frozen between the ages of 13 and 30. And then whatever age you have children, if it's below the age of 30, you'll kind of get frozen at that point. But if you could show people, or can allow people, especially older people, to hear music from that kind of key era in their, their life, there was this ability to just like be more present, and engage with people more. Anyway, so a friend and I, you know, we probably spent three or four months kind of pursuing this notion. At the time she decided she had been in school for her, she had just finished her Mph and so had always been in school and so decided that she, you know, finding a job that actually would pay her was a, was a kind of a key goal. But what was interesting is I think the question of like, obviously we didn't have the outcome I think either of us wanted at the end of those four months basis where we started from those four months, like, it was fine. But I think to then think about it, to acknowledge that there has been some elements of failure in this and therefore, how do we make, if you're not willing to acknowledge exactly what you were just saying, if you're not willing to acknowledge, there's no ability to kind of say, what do we do from here? And instead, especially when it's people that you maybe have some existing relationship with or something, it can become a thing in your relationship that now you just have never discussed. And either it takes a lot of time to kind of let it just melt away or, it's just a friction for a while. so, yeah, I think that is very interesting to me.

Divya: and I also feel like when it is left alone, for some people it melts away and for some people it acts as like, I don't know if you've had those kind of friendships or relationships in your life where like just m one event and then suddenly everything seems bad and you have to break it off and then there are other places where you can let it melt away because there hasn't, like, I guess it's that thing of like finite game and infinite games. Sure, the initial investment is high, but the outcomes are also better. Like, once you're used to it, it's more energy intensive. But overall the returns would be better. Like, your relationships would be tighter. And like, this is a bit of a personal anecdote, but I remember like a few years back, you know, all siblings have fights and all, and my brother and I also used to fight a bit. and all of my friends, like, I remember having this one big fight and I called a couple of my friends and they all had brothers, they all had younger brothers and they were like, yeah, this is how it is with brothers. Just have to live with it. This is how the relationship is gonna be. And somehow something in my brain was like, no, it's okay. I will put effort. And like, you know, two, three years down the line, we are in a very, very good place with each other. We are in a place where we are like, oh, we have solved those things. Of course, whatever was there for like, you know, 30, like 23, 24 years. It took some time to sort of go away, but it did go away. Like, there isn't any baggage. I. I think this is also another thing that, like, if you haven't dealt with the failure, it becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, and, you really don't want to deal with it.

Kahran: That's interesting.

Divya: What did you think about it was interesting?

I think failure can help you sharpen what you're in this for

Kahran: Well, I was just thinking about, how we, like, I think there's different weights that people put on different aspects of relationships. And I think we do a lot of assuming of what other people, that other people's weightages will be similar to our own, or even just have uncertainty about what their weightages are. And then because of that, you end up in this kind of decision making paradigm where you're. It's difficult to. I mean, it depends on how, of course, how you make decisions, right? And if you're someone like me and you tend to kind of, you like to, or you even just intuitively start to weigh other people's outcomes, in your decision making calculus, it can just become this interesting and difficult place where you're, optimizing with incomplete information, basically. So the thing I was thinking about is just, as we've talked about, like, I have an investment company as well, and I think trying to figure out, trying to acknowledge, the investments that we have made that haven't done as well, and learn from those. And then I think, I think we're all aware that we're doing it for different reasons, but we're not really articulating what the reason is that we are doing this thing for. And I think one of the things that failure can help you do is sharpen that, right? Sharpen, like, what you're in this for, right? Whether it's a relationship or a project or like. Or maybe even a company, right? It's like, oh, we haven't done this. Well, one of the things we really can learn is like, you know, what, what about that? What. Why do we consider that a failure, right? And now, what was. Because in knowing that this aspect of it was a failure. Now, you know, at least the other direction is the direction that you want to go. Whereas I think that if you look at, at least for my experience, right, like, looking and saying, okay, you know, how do we, how do we evolve? or even I think as we think about this company, right, like the company that you and I are building, right, how do we look and say, like, okay, you know, we built this, like, offering and it wasn't successful. Well, how do we use that to sharpen what it is that we are trying to do? And I think part of, I feel actually pretty good about it, because I feel like part of what we're trying to do now is create things in a different way. And I think what we realized was that the creation part of what we had created was not the failure, but maybe the stuff around it. So both the pre creation and understanding what it is we wanted to create, and then also the execution of, how we created both of those, were the kind of failure aspects, but the actual act itself was not a failure. I don't know if you would agree with that. That was a little bit all over the place.

Divya: No, that's actually a very, that's actually a very nice way to put it, because I think even, like, in general also, it would be a good practice to think about, okay, what are the parts that work and what are the parts that don't work? I mean, this is a slight tangent, but I don't remember when I even got this model. But, there has been a mental model in my head for a long time, which is like, when you're trying to solve a problem there. If you imagine like a 3d space and, you know, there are a bunch of different, you can move in all sorts of different directions. There is like, free movement, and there is some local maximas, and you'll have a global maxima. I think iteration can only lead you to whatever is the local maxima in the region that you're in. It can never really lead you to global maxima. And I always find, like, that part of just analyzing, actually looking at, oh, these three parts at all didn't work. And like, you know, putting new parts in it does have the chance to shift you away from the local and, like, move you in a different direction. Right. Like, you can actually try to pursue, even if it's a higher maxima and it's not the global maxima, you still have the opportunity to go for. Otherwise, you can, like, micro iterate often enough and arrive at like a reasonably mediocre thing.

Kahran: Yeah. That's interesting. I think the only part I was thinking I wasn't 100% sure I agreed with was because I think it is, depending on what path you're on, sometimes it's possible to get to, like, you can iterate your way to something pretty successful if you happen to start off in the right place. Right. But I do think, though, that there's a whole aspect of, like, circumstances change around you, you know, and, like. And I do think that, yeah. Unless you are kind of willing to carve out sections and say, you know, we're gonna just. If not redo the whole thing, at least redo this section completely, that can, as you're saying. Right, like, escape you from. From your. From your being stuck on the top of your hill and help you get to climbing the next mountain. Yeah, it's pretty interesting.

Divya: It's an interesting thing that I also find that the more I'm able to think about failure in a cognitive way, the less strong it is emotionally. You know, it's a little bit like how some people feel. Like, if you dissect everything scientifically about how a flower is, the beauty of it is lessened. I don't believe in that. But the reverse does happen with it. Like, you know, emotional, sort of, like, heavy emotional stuff where it's like, if you can pull it and you can dissect it, it would. It becomes a lot easier to deal with it, and you can actually problem solve rather than getting overwhelmed by whatever you're feeling.

Kahran: Yeah, I think, like, I've, told you about this before, but when I. When I was running the education company in India, I used to do these onboarding interviews with everyone. And as part of that, I would try to weave in some story from my own history that I felt like would just pertain to their experience and their story. And I think part of that is, like, a lot of times, you know, you would tell stories that were difficult, because those are the stories that come to mind. Those are the strongly emotionally charged stories. And I think doing that, you know, making myself do that was just so helpful, you know, because now it's like they're not as emotionally charged. or at least you're more able to confront that, cognitively and without having just a strong and instinctual reaction where you need to, like, either shy away or freak out or something.

Divya: I mean, I feel like emotions are, almost always. I don't know where the direction of our conversation went, but, like, I feel like emotions are almost always, like, the kind of function that has a, like, you know, tall peak, but it does not have a lot of, like, width to itself. And if you try to stretch out the width, the peak automatically reduces. I mean, not re traumatizing yourself, but, like, as you can experience the same sort of, like, with agency and with control, as you can experience the same emotion again and again, I feel like that becomes a lot easier and better for your mind, almost.

Kahran: Yeah. And I think being able to be aware of where you are is how you can find what you're going to learn from, like, what we were talking about before we started our podcast today, how know, just laying people off and letting people go from your company can be really difficult, especially in a downturn time where, you know, it's going to be difficult for them and difficult for everyone. And I think, like, as I think about the first person that I had to, I had to fire, right. And in that case, it was. It was clearly for non performance. Right. Like, I should not even, like, be saying had to fire, right. Because, like, it was a great outcome for the company that we were able to find someone who was able to perform a lot better in that role, however. Right? Like, I remember the joke and I still remember this. Like, I kept offering her biscuits because I was so, like, I just was like, you must have some tea and biscuit, and then only we can get down to this business. But my ability to kind of look dispassionately past that and understand, like, hey, you know, like, what were the things? Did I communicate the things I was trying to communicate? Did we achieve the goals? Were trying. Right. It's so. I'm so caught up in that, like, emotional response of, like, just with myself that I was so focused on the biscuits, you know? But now, as. As I think about later ones and then kind of later experiences, I had, I think we had a lot more ability to just, like, be, ah, if nothing else, like, look at them now and I can learn other things from them then. Just like, maybe don't stress so much about biscuits. Right.

Almost everyone finds it very hard to leave their first relationships quickly

Divya: this is making me think of, like, you know how when people get in their first relationships, they let it go really, really bad before they, like, you know, let it go because it's almost like they want the. The critical mass required for the failure to be visible.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: It's just so much higher compared to, like, once you have gone through it, you realize, okay, this is not gonna work, and it's best for everyone if we leave. I mean, I'm not saying everybody finds it easier. But I think that, like, with their first relationships, almost everyone finds it very hard to leave the person, like, quickly. M most of my friends that I've talked to, they knew at least a year before they broke up that they really should have broken up. And in some cases, like, it's as much as three years when the relationship is four year long. And it's like, why were you in it? And you just keep going on because you're like, okay. You just don't want to see the failure or the signs of failure because of what it makes you feel about yourself. It's interesting that you use the word disgust because, like, there is this weird, odd thing with saying no or rejecting people, which is like, it makes you feel really terrible about yourself.

Kahran: Same way.

Divya: So, you know, generally, in a gossipy way, most people enjoy talking about other people feeling a little bit better than other people. But when it comes to, like, you know, things where you can actually cast a judgment on others, when you can actually say that, no, you are not good enough, it generally makes people feel pretty bad. Like, there's a very small category of people who would feel good about it. Even now, I'm sure you don't feel good about firing people. You just think, okay, this is something that needs to be done. Maybe, like, you know, you're not the right person for this role. This company is not right for you, but we have to say bye to you, which is very different from, you know, some people who enjoy putting other people down. But that's a very small category. Most people feel that sense of disgust and, like, discomfort with themselves if they have to reject someone, like, sort of quote unquote, officially.

Kahran: Yeah. I mean, I think in some ways that kind of brings me back to where we started. Right. Because I feel like, you know, you were talking about cognitive versus emotional affect, and I was saying that I feel like it's a framing to me. So I think I look and say, like, hey, I think my ability to be understood is a lot more if I am being able to address, what I'm saying and how I'm saying it, in a way that's going to resonate with that person's emotional state. So you can kind of tell whether people are in a place that they're just not being able to hear you or hear you in the way that you're intending to be heard. So I think, because that's something that I look and I say, this is an important skill for me. This is something that I think of as being core to who I am. Well, now, when I look at that situation, I'm like, oh, I was trying to, like, shove some biscuits on this lady who just, you know, that wasn't being, that wasn't exhibit, that wasn't demonstrating that thing that I look at as being very important to how I like to communicate. So that's why it's interesting to me.

Divya: Right.

Kahran: It's. I think that's, And I do kind of in some ways, come back to the way I was thinking in the beginning that, like, I think that. That there is this notion of, like, sense of self and. And there's something about how failure ties into that sense of self. Right. And that I think depending on what level it has hit you, if for lack of a better word, your ability to kind of look at it as a good failure or a bad failure, or like, even just like, cognitively engage with it versus just emotionally engage with it, really, can be different. And unfortunately, I don't know if I have more words beyond that, but no.

Divya: It'S a lot of food for thought. I'm also not sure if I have more words to say on this topic. So we can do, like, a very weird buy here because it almost feels like halfway through. But I do feel like this is a lot of thinking, and, like, I myself am also in, like, the process of trying to understand what's happening. like, you know, just this. Okay, what does failure even mean? What are models around it? How do I feel about it? But, yeah, this, like, so I hadn't. When I was thinking about it alone, I hadn't articulated the, cognitive versus emotional thing as, like, loudly. It was in the back of my mind. I know that this is how it is, etcetera, but, like, I hadn't brought it to forefront, so now I have, like, quite a lot to think about.

Kahran: Yeah, I think it's very interesting. We should. We can revisit in a future episode as well.

Divya: Yeah, we can do that. Ok, cool.

Kahran: Good talk. Bye.

Divya: Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes, and you can find a link to it in the show notes. Hm.