Thinking on Signaling & Being In-Group

Divya: Where did the thought of signaling versus being in group come from

Kahran: Anyway, there's a long way of saying, I think it's interesting how we think we've evolved to this kind of place where. Where the signals can be more easily mixed because people can be signaling different things with the same things, which is kind of an interesting place in the world to have ended up.

Divya: Hi, I'm Daveer.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Kahran.

Divya: And this is thinking on thinking in your brain, where did the thought of, like, signaling versus being in group come from?

Kahran: is.

Divya: It happens in both contexts, in work context and in personal context. Yeah, we try to signal.

Kahran: I'm not 100% sure this is what I was thinking about, but this is a good thing I could have been thinking. so I think I was thinking about how we, As we're trying to present ourselves to buyers that don't have context around us, or the kind of work we do, how do we show them that we are part of the, I don't know, people that they want to work with. This doesn't seem like a very good reason. I don't think so. I feel like I should have a better reason.

Divya: I mean, like, it doesn't matter if the reason is good or bad, right? Like, not all ideas start from. We have the story and narrative, you know, genius. The idea started from a great place, only the great reasons, you know, got appended to it. And I don't think that it works like that. Right. In most cases, you'll start from something, and then you will be like, this seems erroneous in one way or the other, and then we have to alter it a little. Like, for example, when you say that, right. For me, that raises the question, how do we know when a, buyer is a part of the group that we want to be selling to? Right. Like, as you were saying that, like, how do buyers see us as a part of the group that they want to be buying from? That means that we have identified the buyer. How did we identify them?

Kahran: Yeah, yeah. You kind of get stuck into a little bit of a loop because you identified them based on, like, some attribute, right, which is like, some group attribute and m. Yeah. And then, I guess, to answer more directly, I think that how. This is not a very well formed thought. I was thinking about how in, like, university alumni associations, right? Like, there is this kind of, Like, as you have kind of talked about, right. If you were to meet someone who had also went to, Karagpur, that you would treat them in a different way. Right. You would look at them as being part of this group. That you are also part of. And I think that there's similar, sort of things that exist across different industries. So you can be looking and saying, okay, that this person we've identified, you need to have some characteristic you've identified initially, and then you can go out and try and find that characteristic in other places, or look and say, what kind of environments encourage that kind of characteristic? And then there'd be a higher probability for it to be, you know, fostered in that sort of environment.

Divya: It makes me think of, like, how, like, I mean, maybe it's not even directly related, but it makes me think of how in ML algorithms, people use clustering as a feature of the algorithm, okay? Like, certain properties, like, exist together. And like, this is the pattern matching part of our brain trying to, like, think about it. Like, oh, people from this place are trustworthy because we have had some sort of trustworthy association with those kind of people. Right? Like, same thing is for buyers. same thing is for sellers. Same thing is for, like, you know, collaborators. What kind of signals are you looking for? It's a very. I mean, like, it just as you were saying, it just reminded me of how clustering works and pattern recognition.

Kahran: Yeah. It's a little bit orthogonal, but I think then the thing you start to run into, though, is, like, if you have to manifest different groups, right. It could be. We, like, we met, my husband and I, we met, one of our neighbors recently, and he, was just kind of talking about how, like, like balancing, like, being part of a queer community and the kind of life he wants to show or the kind of, like, way he wants to express himself there. And also then the community that he grew up in, and they're very, at odds, especially, like, you know, the kinds of clothes people wear and the kind of environment that they would go to. And it was interesting to kind of just hear that struggle, right. Because it's this thing of, like, well, you want to balance. It's not even a question of being true to who you are, because in some ways, they're both who you are, right. But being true to both of them at the same time can be very difficult. so it's kind of, I think, a different sort of aspect of, like, yes, there is like an in group, but it's not always just one in group. And then trying to figure out where. Which way you're trying to signal it in a way that's still authentic is difficult.

Divya: Yeah. So, you know, like, when you are doing statistical sampling, you do sort of like a, interval of sorts where, like, there is a 90% confidence interval. So the chances of the result lying within this range is like 90%. It's almost like if you are someone and you are, like, within different groups and you wanna signal different things in those different groups, you would need to still have maintain, like, a certain interval of your personality throughout. Right. Like, people who have extremely different personalities, they're either socially perceived as not trustworthy or they themselves lose a sense of identity. Like, who am I? And how do you answer that question again? Like, I don't have concrete thoughts on this.

Kahran: No. But it reminds me of, like, my mom actually has this feeling about someone. And it's very funny because I accused her a little bit of, like. Like, just not really. the gentleman in particular is queer and part of the queer community, but has, like, you're saying, like, very different Personas depending on, like, you know, what kind of group he's operating in. And I think, yeah, it can be very jarring for people, especially people who look at that and they're like, this is, you know, I have past experience that tells me people like this are untrustworthy or, you know, that they are up to something or something. So, like, I think for someone like my mom, we've invested in this person's company. And so my mom is like, oh, did it actually go anywhere? She's like, I thought it was like he was never going to, like, I know he looked it up a couple of days ago. You know, this company has done very well. Well. But it's. It's hard to, like you're saying, right? It's. It gives off a certain vibe to people. Because I think there's a lot of people who behave like that who are just not trustworthy. Or there's a perception that people who behave like that are not trustworthy. And then that perception gets propagated, selected.

Divya: Like, yeah. confirmation.

Kahran: Correct. That's a better word.

Confirmation bias affects how we dress and how we present ourselves, right

Confirmation bias, for sure.

Divya: It's interesting, right? Because, like, so I was reading a book, recently on design, and this person basically said something along the lines of, if the basis of your design is, if only people did not behave this way, I would not have to make a consideration, then that's just wishful thinking and that design is going to be a failure. And I felt like that's not just true for design, that is true for so many things. Right? Like, I wish that we could shortcut how to figure out which people are trustworthy, but, like, we can't not really? Like, people who are excellent at signaling they might be a part of so many groups because they are very trustworthy. Like, I don't know, maybe they are part of a lot of groups because they are trustworthy.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Because they are, like, you know, doing other behavior. But I think that, like, where people's alarm bells start ringing is because suddenly that person behaves less like us and more like them. And so you're. You start thinking, but he's. Then this person is not a part of us. He's a part of them. Right.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: Like, Sadhguru talks a lot about, people like us do things like, this is the way to construct social change. And I've always found it very interesting because, like, which us and which things sometimes if people like us, start doing certain things, you start dissociating. Like, in India, this has happened, right? Like a lot of people have had over the last, like, five, six years, fights with their families because they realize that elders in their families are way more right wing than the kids are. And almost like this is. This battle is being fought on a very personal level. And it's. At least to me, it's, like, really interesting that, how that behavior. I mean, like, it would take quite an extreme behavior in most cases for something to like, you know, for you to push your family out of the us group. Especially, like in east, like, in an asian culture, people are a lot more like, your parents are gonna be in your life until you die. Like, they're gonna be instructing you on how to eat, what to eat, what to wear till you die, or till daytime, whichever one happens first. But it's like, it's very interesting that that has happened to, like, quite a few people. So, like, I've also been thinking about, like, you know, how do you. How do you define which things are the people like us doing, and how do we even come up with those definitions?

Kahran: Yeah, I think it's also interesting how aspirational plays into it, right. Because I think that there's sometimes I. Where, like, Like, I bought this shirt that has the heart on it. I think I was wearing it a few days ago, right? And it's like, it's a very well known designer makes these hearts with, like, smiley faces. And I was just thinking about it because I was like, this is. It's like I was wearing it, like, kind of casually, right? Because it's a casual sort of shirt, right? And I was like, I was thinking about how, like, that is a certain kind of, like, I don't know if it's an aspirational signaling or, like. Right. But it's. I don't know. I think that there's an aspect of how, I guess, particularly in fashion and how we dress and how way we present ourselves, right. That there is both. Like, there's both the group that we are in, but then there's also, like, an aspirational element to that group. So maybe if I can say that in different words, like, if I thought about, you know, how my sister runs a women's fashion company and they are part of what they are selling is not just that there's a community for you, how you are today, but together, we all have these aspirations, and this is also a community of people who share your aspirations. And again, in that case, it's fashion and it's apparel. So there's a lot of aspirational dressing that occurs. And, you know, especially for women and in society today, like, depending on how you've dressed and how you're carrying yourself, people are going to make certain assumptions about you, in different kinds of environments. So, I don't know. It's just interesting because I was thinking about that and how I think that there's, like. But then there's also this perception of what is aspirational. And I think that also runs into what you were just saying, where it's like, what do you do? Well, sometimes what you do is because you think that's what people would do, and then you're running into this whole sort of, like, well, is that really what you want to do? Are you trying to signal for these people that you're not really sure? Like, that's how I was thinking yesterday. I was wearing a shirt, and I was like, I don't know. Am I signaling something? I don't really know. Right. Like, is it, like, I don't know. Right. but if that made sense, it's an interesting dilemma.

Divya: There's also, like, signaling is not completely pointless because it's also, in a way, a building of common language in a culture.

Divya: M right.

Signaling can be seen as fake or real depending on how you're doing it

so, for example, of course, signaling is, in some ways it can be seen as fake, and in some ways, it can be seen as, like, you know, oh, you're just trying to pretend to be a part of this group. But many times, it's also, like, you know, when somebody wears a t shirt of a brand that they really like or carries a bag of, like, you know, a brand that they really like, that's like, a part of it could be a wannabe signalling. But a part of it also could be, hey, I like this band. Anybody who likes this band can now know that I like this band. And we can, like, bond together even though we don't each other.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Like, it's not always. I don't know. If we just talk about, oh, people are signaling to each other. There's this, like, bias that we start sort of coming into, which is like, are you being fake? But you're not really. Like, you might be being fake a little bit, but you're not being fully fake. I don't know how to. Exactly.

Kahran: Well, I think maybe this is kind of related to what you're saying. But. But, like. And I'll just stay with my t shirt example, right? But, like, there's, like, now you can buy, like. So that shirt I was mentioning was maybe like, $75, let's say right now I could buy a $75 shirt that has no sort of, like, adornments. That would still be $75. like, it doesn't have to be just, because people are making. There's all sorts of different choy dots people are making, right? So if you buy something that's like cotton that's in New York, or, like, whatever that was woven in America, it's going to be much more expensive, right. But that is not as apparent, right. It would look just like a black t shirt, that you would have no sort of awareness, right. And then I think on the other extreme, you know, there might be, like, a Gucci sort of shirt, right. Which could be, I don't know, maybe it would be even more expensive than that. Maybe it would be a similar sort of price, but, you know, it'd be very blatantly branded, right? You would see it. That would tell you, like, Gucci. This is the Gucci sort of style. I wonder, right, that there's this kind of, like. I wonder if this is a little bit what you were kind of hinting at, right. That, like, there's this, Depending on how you're. I guess. Let me say that differently. There was a time that, like, that opulence had more singular definition, in my opinion, right? Like, if you look more at, like, history, right. There was, like, gold meant gold, right? And now I think, like, for example, we were out with a few friends last week, and one of the gentlemen we were with were wearing these, like, big diamonds, right? And. And my husband commented on them. And then when we got home, I was telling him, I was like, you know, those diamonds were not real, right? And, like, I've seen, like, enough people wearing diamond sets, I could just tell they weren't real. And I don't think he even was trying to wear ones that looked really that real. Right? It wasn't. It was part of a different sort of look that, like, even though that's a traditional sort of like, yes, you know, I am like, very opulent and whatnot, right? Like, it's, there's different ways now, I think, where, where the, the flashiness and the quality are not necessarily related, and the flashiness and the quality and then the, like, eventual cost are like, those are both inputs into it, but either one of them could be sending up the eventual cost anyway. There's a long way of saying, I think it's interesting how we think we've evolved to this kind of place where, where the signals can be more easily mixed because people can be signaling different things with the same things, which is kind of an interesting place in the world to have ended up.

Divya: that is interesting.

There's a lot of judgment based on how people are signaling, right

So I was thinking, when you were speaking, I was thinking about, I don't know if you have her design matters by Debbie Milton. Not sure, but she says, so it's a podcast, and she interviews a, lot of designers, artists and creative, like, other creative type people. And one of the things that she says is, we can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference, or we can do both. And I always, like, once it hit me what she is trying to compare, it made me realize that there is this stigma m of, oh, if you're actually doing real work, you don't have to talk about it. You don't have to signal that you're doing the work. Right? Like, and of course, different people are going to take your signal in different ways. Like, there would be people, for example, if somebody was carrying a Gucci bag, there would be people who would think, whoa, that's a Gucci bag. And there would be people who like, wow, how cheap. Why are you buying this thing? And there would be people who would be like, wow, what a show off. Do you have that much money to waste? There, would be people on all spectrum, you are sending the same signal. But of course, depending on the receiver, it's being taken differently. But also, like, there is, when you were saying, I was just thinking about, like, there is this inherent, I would say social weight to just, like, even want to signal. Like, one has to consider that, am I signaling. Am I signaling too much?

Kahran: Why?

Divya: Am I signaling something? Right? But this also made me think, hm. Okay. The same signal could be interpreted differently as well. Like, as you were talking, it's like, this is interesting.

Kahran: Yeah. And, well, I was saying, I think that's why we seem more understated, right. Or, like, more like, it's like the. What's the acronym? If you know, you know. Right. Like, it's more things that are playing to. It's like a Gucci bag that you're holding. It's very obvious to everyone, right. And, like, Versace is the same. Right. They have such traditional, understood, like, like, brand motifs. but now I think you're starting to see more of, like. And even if I thought about my sister's company again, right, like, there's the place where people are being able to, almost like, play loose and fast with people's expectations, right? Like, someone. If you're wearing, like, a $1000 dress, or people would be thinking for a long time that, like, you know, you can afford it and you bought it and all these things, right? And now they're being. It's kind of creating a way that you can just. Just, like, operate in a different landscape. Yeah, yeah, yeah. it is very interesting. I wonder if this, like, how it will. Where we kind of started from, right. But, like, how it will translate to business in a lot of ways, because I think there's a lot of. There's a lot of judgment that happens really quickly, and it's based on how people are signaling, you know? like, as I ran a company and I've been an investor, right. There's so much judgment I make based on how people approach me and, like. And for me, because of my background, a lot of it has to do with the way that they speak, the grammar and their messages, especially if they're going to be sending me an unsolicited message, like an email or LinkedIn message, which isn't necessarily a great thing, right. It's just the judgment I bring because of how I look at things. I'm like, oh, you know, if you were looking at things seriously, because if I was looking at things seriously, I would put in the time to make sure, right? And that's just so I'm like, oh, are you part of the group that I will resonate with? And I make a judgment based on what I consider the criteria of that group. And I wonder, it'll just be interesting how that starts to shift, I think, both as people become more aware of the biases they're bringing, partially just because we're so everything, everyone is kind of being culture today is driving more awareness of biases. I think at a global level. But that may be as a subject again, for another week where you.

M. Bennett: I think businesses are sending signals as Pride month approaches

Did you want to say something?

Divya: We could also. No, I was just thinking that we could also think about it in terms of, like, there have always been signals that businesses are sending. They've just become a lot more broader because, like, as purchasing power has become broader. Right. Like, across the globe, I would say there has been increase in prosperity. Of course, that prosperity hasn't been equally distributed. But M. Like, where maybe, you know, 50 years ago, only one person was earning in the household, and they, like, the demands of what made an average house were a lot lower. That's, like, a lot higher at this moment. So businesses have also changed their, like, pride month is going on, right? Like, whatever. It's gonna come on in a few days, and suddenly all the businesses are gonna be like, yes, we love rainbow. And, I mean, I remember so there was this time when Facebook had, like, started doing this rainbow thing on their profile, and so many people from India just, like, did the rainbow on their profile, and it was like, guys, do you know what it means? You are not supportive of this thing. Why are you doing this? You have no recognition. And this is, like, what does it signal? And most people were, like, pretty. And, like, there is so much amusing. Like, it just reminded you of, like, so many amusing things. Like, businesses will do it, and it will also get misinterpreted a lot.

Kahran: Yeah, that's really interesting. It's interesting, like, because I think something I like because I get so, so many Instagram ads, especially, like, as we're coming into Pride month, and it's interesting to see how businesses operate. Right. And how I feel differently about the businesses. Right. I like people who just put a rainbow color. I'm just like, what is wrong with you? Right? And, like, I mean, there's a shampoo ad or something that I'm getting every day, which is like. It's like, literally they have the regular shampoo, and then they're like, pride edition. And, like, the tag is rainbow. You're just like, no. but then on the flip side, like, there's. There's a company that I had bought, like, a swimsuit from, and then I noticed that they just, like, are leaning into the fact that, like, that there must be a lot of gay men who like their. Their undergarments, and their swimwear, right? And, like, now the lines that they're rolling out, and they rolled out, like. Like. Like, three special lines for pride. They're just really focusing on that demographic. I think that's like, a nicer way. Like, yeah, it's like, you know, you know your demographic is going to be shopping for those kinds of things this time of year because they're going to parties and whatnot. Right. It's just like thinking about what people are actually looking for and, like, how are we going to show, that we're show that we're showing up not just for, you know, 5 seconds, right? I think not just for. Yeah. So I think that part is really nice.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: or can be nice, depending on how people execute.

Divya: We could actually discuss more about how businesses do signaling. Maybe next time.

Kahran: Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. I think we ended up in some good places here.

Divya: Yeah. Awesome. Okay, next time.

Kahran: Bye.

Divya: Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes, and you can find a link to it in the show notes.