Kahran and Divya come back together to share their thoughts on our two remarkable guests -- Aditi and Fran -- and how both seem to share a very different view of the notion of identity, and how that has shaped their lives.
Theme music is by Akshay Ramuhalli, you can find him @btrptmusic
Your career and your identity are not the same thing, but they're so intertwined that separating them feels like pulling apart threads of the same rope.
Hi, I'm Divya. Hi, I'm Kahran. And this is... Thinking. I'm thinking.
Welcome to the 36th episode of Thinking on Thinking. This week we talked about our last two interviews with Adithi and with Fran. And we had this really interesting conversation as we realized the conversations about identity with these two people were very different than the previous two interviews we had. We loved exploring it and hope you guys enjoy this detour into what makes an artist and
what is an artistic self. Hope you enjoyed this week. So, when I was thinking about both of the episodes that we have done, just the one with Fran and then the one with Adithi, I felt like both of the episodes had this common theme of expertise.
And these are people who have both shifted careers. I mean, Fran is much older, so she has had more chances to jump through things. But even Adithi, going from a researcher and an economist, and then into working with health and now being a startup founder. So, I don't know.
It felt to me like about expertise. That makes sense. I guess I feel like you could think about it as expertise, but it's also kind of this question of labels. I think it was just kind of interesting to me how Fran didn't really even seem to look
as much for the commonality. It was kind of like she seemed to understand these are the kinds of environments that I resonate with. And then I will go and find a way to do work in those. It felt similar to me about how Adithi was saying that she realized that her satisfaction
or her sense of satisfaction would be greater in a different kind of output, I guess, if she was able to achieve it. So I don't know. It felt like they kind of like shucked off this idea of that there's this label of, oh, this is what a person does.
And therefore, this kind of constrains the options available to me. It's interesting because I feel like it actually is very different than our first two guests this season who just approached the idea of identity in a very different way. I feel like for these two, both of them just didn't really engage as much with the notion that there was an identity that would drive their feelings or drive their behavior, which
is really different than I think how I think Monty or computational mama or even how I kind of really think about it. I feel like a lot of questions become identity questions from so interesting to kind of hear both Fran and other things in different ways show how they weren't identity questions. Even these really big questions were not as much of an identity question as you might
think or expect. You know what is interesting now that you say that it's making me think about like sometimes you can think of identity as like an envelope, right? Like almost like this exoskeleton kind of a thing, right? Like this has to encompass everything that I am.
And in case of Fran and Aditya, it almost felt like they had an endoskeleton, right? Where they knew who they are and they just like moved in a way that made sense for them at whatever moment they are at. Like at least I don't know like, you know how it was when you were actually talking to her and you could see her.
And like in France interview, I couldn't hear a lot of like self crisis, right? Or like an identity crisis based on how she was shifting between these things almost like, you know, she was like water and she was just flowing wherever she wanted to flow next. Okay. But like, like I agree with you.
Like I also think that like my notion of identity is like, oh, am I like creating enough of a base that I can step on it? Like I can't just go with the flow and like, oh, if it will change, then it will change. Even though I am the kind of person who tends to have very dynamic and shifting identities, but like it will still give me crisis when I'm in the middle of it.
Like right now is one of those times when I'm like, but who am I? But what am I doing? Right? And I feel like a lot of it comes, at least for me, a lot of it comes from this notion of trying to hold identity as something other people are going to see me as, and then they're
going to use that lens to understand me through. So it's almost like identity is an exoskeleton. Like that's what people see kind of like, you know, a turtle's shell. Yeah, it's interesting you say that because I feel like there's something you said on in the podcast with other the where you guys were talking about it in a very different
context, but I think you were talking about how people have a resistance to defining pain sometimes, because even though it may feel smaller once it's defined, then it's it can be more scary now that it is defined. I don't know. I mean, I wonder a little bit if the way they are thinking about identity is kind of like
that where it's like they're not defining it. And in doing so, you will allow it to be more big. Yeah. It also is interesting because it just now when you were speaking, it occurred to me, but you and I are both doing the artist's way, which is this 10 week, I guess like workbook
about how to kind of find your artistic self and really unblock your creativity. And it occurs to me, I feel like both Fran and other the may not readily describe themselves as creative people or artistic people. And I wonder how much that might reflect in the importance that they give to these questions of identity.
Because one of the things that the author in the artist way talks about is really kind of finding your identity. Right. I think her name is Julia, right? So I think Julia really talks about like, yeah, like, like finding your identity as
an artist. I just wonder a little bit. Yeah. Like if those kind of, if you aren't forcing yourself to explore those questions, if that kind of comes hand in hand with this like quote unquote creative path, that some people
find themselves on. No, that is very interesting. And that is kind of true because I've always had this notion that creative work is very self serving, like it's borderline narcissistic in some ways. And I'm not using that term very negatively, but it's just like, it is very sort of inverted
looking. And it's like, okay, I'm going to take up space and I'm going to do this. And even like the artist way and then the war of art, both of those books try to take away the burden of self serving mess from the artistic process. But I feel like inherently it's just like the kind of thing where you will end up taking
a lot of space. I wonder if like, you know, just being slightly more identity focused makes you more pliable to creativity. Yeah. But I wonder though, like, do these like really cross medium artists feel that way?
I don't know. Or what about people like how Aditi was describing her professor, who was an actor and he was a researcher. Or I was talking to a friend and he was talking about, have you heard of Coheer, the AI company? It's a really big AI company, kind of like anthropic, Mr.
Law of those companies. And one of the founders of Coheer also is like a guitarist in an indie rock band and he tours with the band. And like my friend and I were talking about it and I was like, yeah, almost always like a lot of these people who do very remarkable work tend to also be like creatively expressive
in some particular way. Like a lot of Nobel laureates tend to be classical musicians. That's also interesting because there's kind of a question of how much is like, how much does expressing yourself through different disciplines reflect the kind of same thing as creating?
And what I mean by that is, so when I draw, for example, or sketch, sometimes I can capture things I'm thinking about, but I wouldn't necessarily put it as like a way I create art because I don't find it to be a way that I can express myself or create the kind of things that I like to create. Right.
Like there's an idea in my head of like what I like to create. And I feel like there's certain mediums where I don't have the technical competency to do that. Right. And maybe I would someday, but at least where I stand today.
And so I feel like in a lot of like my feelings about music, right, like I could say I can play the piano. I can like there's some other instruments I could play that like I would feel like I can practice and there's certain joy I find in practicing and in doing it. Similar to how I feel when I'm sketching or doodling, there's a certain joy I find that I
wouldn't take it to the extent of saying that it's a place that I create. And so I was pushing back slightly in a roundabout way on your contention that I wonder a little bit if there's like a certain, I would say sure joy, but also just like relaxation and engaging with certain modalities that maybe people are drawn to when their minds are in certain ways.
But I don't know if that's the same as like being driven to create. And of course, you know, this is like assuming that creative is a drive to create, which I kind of just took as an axiom. Okay, so I have a question from the first part of your statement. What makes it different?
Like so you would be comfortable saying that you're a writer if you write, but you're not an artist if you paint. What makes it different? That is a very good question. I think the intent.
So I think one of the things that she tells you to do in the artist's way is to take yourself on an artist's day every week. Or a few days ago, I was reviewing my week and I was like, Oh, it was my first week and I didn't do an artist's day. And then I was thinking about it and I was like, well, I actually did do some activities that
could be considered an artist's day, but I didn't do them with the intent in mind. Right. It's only that I'm looking back at afterwards. I'm like, Oh yeah, that was an activity that I was kind of like doing. And I did feel a certain way afterwards, but I didn't go there with the intent of saying, I'm
going to go and take myself on an experience for me to grow as an artist or to me just feel like I think the metaphor she uses is you're adding more into your glass and trying to fill up with glass. Right. And I feel the intent really matters because I think the intent is how you tell yourself
what you're trying to do. And that's how you tell yourself that that thing matters. That is so interesting because so like a couple of weeks back, I told you I went for like a two hour run very slow, but like it was a long run, the longest one I've ever had. And that week I had told myself, I'm going to go on a very long run.
That's going to be my artist's day this week. It's very interesting because like at the end of the run, I wasn't thinking, Oh my God, I was so slow or Oh my God, I didn't finish whatever distance I was almost about to do. Like I think I ran for almost eight kilometers, but I didn't fully run for eight kilometers. It's just interesting when you said that, you know, if you are sort of setting your intent a
particular way and then you are going and doing an activity, it sort of feels different than if you were just doing the thing. And this is kind of like that because like, yeah, I really did feel differently about it afterwards than I would have on a normal day. I mean, and I was reminded when you were talking earlier, my husband is like, you know, he was a
Fulbright scholar and he's a hard scientist and he plays the flute. But now if I asked him, is that a place he finds artistic expression? I think he would tell me he's also someone who takes a lot of self portraits, right? He uses a timer and he'll like kind of set up a camera. And I think if you asked him, he would tell you that he finds far more artistic expression in those,
even though he never shows those to anyone, right? Those are very much pictures for himself. But and, you know, sometimes when he plays music, a lot of times he does play for himself, but sometimes he does play with other people. But I think if you asked him where he finds our what he even considered artistic, it would be his
photography, not so much his music. And similarly, you would feel like your writing is a lot more of your creative self than your, like, then if you were to paint or something. Yeah, like, I think I might like when I, when I doodle, it's usually because I'm like thinking or like, you know, I'm relieving some, maybe some stress in my mind, right?
Like it's, it's not with that intent of saying I'm creating something. Even when I write poetry, interestingly, a lot of the times it's about like, processing something, right? Like a lot of times I'm writing poetry on something that has been stuck in my head. And that's actually very different than how I feel when I'm going out and saying, oh, I want to tell this story. Like when I'm telling a story, usually there's characters that have started to come in
my head and I'm telling their story. This is so interesting. I think that like, I don't have a definition like that about creativity or like doing creative things. You don't feel the intent of what you're trying to do matters is it's more judged on the output. I used to make a lot of comics and comics, even for me now, are a processing tool more than
anything else. Like if I'm making a comic, it's because there is like something that has happened in my mind and then I've converted it into art. And like, sure, there is a particular kind of art that I would say conceptual art that has to fit in that category. Like I'm asking a question or I'm trying to process something. But I also don't think that like, so I've only started writing in the last few years.
But I don't think that like my writing is not a creative expression. Like it doesn't sit in a separate category for me. And maybe it's because like, I identify as being a creative much more than anything else. So like everything that I do create, like I know that internally I start feeling at some point like conversations are also creative. And then if you're creating relationships, that's also creative.
Like I know that like deep inside, that's how I feel. If I think of like, you know, everyone is creative. That's where I'm coming from that. Of course, you're creating relationships. You're creating meaning in your life.
You are creating jokes, maybe when you're talking to your friends. There is all of these like layers of creation happening in your life day to day. I think we've like backed ourselves into a really interesting mental space because I wonder a little bit like is being an artist an identity. And so then in order to feel like you have an artist identity, obviously you have to care about identity
because otherwise, like you're saying, being creative and having creativity is just something that can be throughout your life. It can be in every moment in every sort of interaction in every way you do whatever your other identities or, you know, jobs are, right? But if you want to say that I'm an artist, does that mean that you have to embrace this notion of having identities and then one of the identities that you put on, you know, maybe it's all the time or maybe
it's some of the time is this artist identity. But then for people who, you know, don't play that game of identities, like our two guests these past two episodes, like maybe they just don't, they don't think about it so much. I'm part of not even thinking about yourself as an artist is because you just don't think about identities. Like if you think about somebody like let's say Fran, who worked in many different things and maybe she
doesn't have a concrete identity there. Well, like she definitely has a concrete identity as a queer lady. Or would you say that that's also not true? I don't know. I mean, I feel like what came out in our episode to me and, you know, of course, I've known Fran for several years. So I know her outside of the episode as well.
I think she's a very morally driven person, right? She has a sense of what is right and wrong in her mind. But I don't know if it kind of is so much like people like me do things like this. Huh. It's like I do this kind of rather than people like me. Yeah. And I don't know because she's not the old only like older lesbian I have met who is kind of like that, right? So I don't know if maybe it's kind of a question of growing up in the period that they did grow up in
America and it was kind of a cultural shift where it was like, Oh, you know, we're not going to make things accessible to you that might be accessible to other kinds of people. And so we're going to carve out our own identity that is kind of this like, you know, we do these things. I don't know. So I don't know about what led to it, but I just feel like if you talk to her, I don't know, even I think when she talks about how she came involved with the Human Rights Council and it's very brief at the end
of that episode, but she talks about kind of seeing that speech by Irva Shivei and how she just kind of felt that there was a possibility for change and she could help catalyze it. Right. And I think that that again, it wasn't like, Oh, I realized I was a queer woman and that, you know, queer people or queer women did these things. But it was like, Oh, I felt empowered in my ability to do these things. And also what's really interesting to me, she doesn't feel a need to evangelize. And I feel like a lot of people in their identities, especially once they have
a sense of a solid identity, feel this need to evangelize, especially to other people, they feel like could be part of that identity. And I think it's really telling to me and interesting that she doesn't do that. Like she's never tried to recruit me for anything, you know, like even like to be a part of the Human Rights Council or something, right? Like it's just, I don't know, it's very interesting how she presents options and choices. Okay, so you do a lot of different things. Right. Like, do you think of yourself as a chef? Do you think of yourself as an
investor? Do you think of yourself as a founder? Do you think of yourself as a writer? Or as a storyteller? Or as a poet? Or artist? Like those are all things of photographer. I must have forgotten many, but like, yeah. It's a really hard question for me, because one of the things that I really don't like is to feel like I have constrained my options. And I put myself in a box, right? So both I really like those notions of identities that I love kind of like thinking about them and playing with them. But then as soon as I start to feel too close to one, I feel this need that I have
to grab another one to show that, you know, I am more than just this thing. I think actually it's something we talked about in an episode a really long time ago. But it's more how I think about capital, really, like time and money, right? Is I think I think my identity, I feel like is kind of tied up in this notion that I want to be able to accelerate my competency or my growth in these areas that I care about. And I think that I've tried to create like the necessary freedoms and the necessary ability to invest both of time and capital to kind of be able to say, Okay, this is the thing that I'm excited about. How do I be
able to, you know, become at least to a point of competency, or some of the unacceptable level of competency for myself? It's interestingly, actually, I was kind of I think influenced by one of my parents best friends growing up, who really has had really deep hobbies to the point like crazy hobbies, like he learned how to like competitively sail boats. I think right now he's learning paragliding, he raced cars for a little while. But he kind of right has built his life in a way that he could chase these new things and be like, Oh, you know, why should I not be able to do this? Just because I'm getting older, just because I didn't
do it when I was younger. I think that has always felt really appealing to me. Was that a roundabout answer or nothing? Like when you were talking about it, and I was thinking about the thought I had when I was listening back to the episode with Aditi, I think one of the benefits of having multiple identities, even if you are like, you know, even if you do identify as something like having multiple identities is that you become very psychologically slippery. Like when Aditi says that it's been hard getting feedback from people, but then the moment she stopped thinking about it as her idea, and it was the people's idea, it
became a lot easier to like sort of iterate something similar. But it's like, if I am just an artist, then like any attack on that identity is such a threat. Like, I know that for myself, if somebody is like, let's say I tell somebody, oh, I design products, and they're like, you know, mildly amused by that. And I'm like, Oh, but I also make games. And then it's suddenly like, you know, you can sort of do this thing where it's like, Oh, you thought that I was this, but I'm really not that I am also this thing, and also this thing. And then suddenly you're just like, it's almost like, you know, you can make so many
different things with Lego, but you still have those discrete blocks in your brain, it's manageable, these are the pieces. But sure, you can still combine and like infinite ways. And so you don't have to worry about becoming a run of the mill character. Yeah. But even as you were saying that I was kind of thinking about it and paying attention to how I felt about it. And it was interesting, because I feel like if there's certain things that you don't want to say to people, because you don't feel like, I don't know, there's certain places that I think are more core to your identity. Like for me, if I didn't feel
satisfaction in my poetry, I would feel really sad, more than anything else, I think, it gives me so much joy that I can like, almost always write a poem about something, not always, but almost always, right? And just like, it's so I don't know, and then I read them sometimes, and I remember like those moments, and it's just like, it's really lovely. It's like such a special thing for me that like, I feel like that if that wasn't, I wouldn't be who I was if I didn't have that as part of whereas there's so many other things I feel like are later, you know,
so you mean like, you know, if somebody said that you are a bad investor, you wouldn't care, or somebody said you're a bad founder or a bad co worker, I break so many rules in investing and like, how you're supposed to like run a company, when you break rules in poetry also, I don't think that quality is the same as rule following. It's like really not the same at all. But like, in investing or something, you're a bad investor, if you don't follow the rules until you make a lot of
money, right? And then it doesn't matter if you are a bad investor or not, because now you're not a bad investor because of the output set. So basically, what you're saying is something like poetry, where there isn't an objective measure of if you are a good poet or not the identity slightly easier to put under crisis than if it was something like investment. Where there is an objective measure, like, it's very true that in India, the brand IIT gets you somewhere, it's like, you
know, generally people who go there, it becomes a core part of their identity. But also nobody can take it from me, nobody can criticize it. Because like, it's just a thing, even if somebody says you're a bad IIT and or whatever, I'm like, okay, whatever does that mean? I cleared my exams, I am like out of it, I have a degree. Yeah. Right. But like, if somebody says you're a bad game designer, oh boy, that's gonna hurt. Because like the random objective measures and especially if it was somebody that I respected, and they said that,
then I would like, who's opinion is about game design, then I would like really, really worry about it. Then it would hurt. Last night, my husband and I were watching this show called Ted Lasso, which I'm sure everyone has heard of this morning. And there's a certain scene where one of the assistant coaches has really been praised in the newspaper. And then someone asked him for some coaching, basically is like, you know, there's these two other players who are worth
coaching, because they are stars. And you know, they're like Picasso and Michelangelo. And he's like, you know, you are like the kind of painting that they put at the holiday in to cover up a blood stain on the wall. And it's like, it's just something that that's so nasty, right? Because it's from a coach and someone who sees your, your skill and sees you playing and then really kind of unpacks to show. And so I think something like that would be really difficult for me, where if someone kind of like unpacked these things, which I feel like it's a weird thing. And I wonder if you also feel
this way. But I almost feel like I want to find my people for my poetry in a way I don't feel about anything else. Like none of my other artistic or like identity pursuits, like your people as in people who would resonate with what you are trying to say in your poetry, people who speak the same language. It's kind of what you were saying a few minutes ago, when you said that I break the rules in my poetry, I break the rules for some people. This might be a strange example, but I remember learning about the Hudson River
School. And it was always just striking to me because, sure, there were people who had tried to paint things like those those kinds of landscapes and these really beautifully idealic scenes of nature before, right? But here was a bunch of people who said, no, wait, this could be a focus. There's enough in this that we can all commit our lifetimes to it. And you kind of feed on each other, right? And you kind of get and I think something you and I have talked about in the podcast many times before, is it's kind of a false dichotomy thinking that when you make a choice, you're closing doors and you're
reducing options, right? So and I think what happens is that as you continue down a path, you realize there was more and more depth in that path. So right, so I think for these painters, they realized that you could spend your lifetime in this thing. But I think part of that was because you had a bunch of people around you who were also reinforcing that for you. So I kind of feel that way, right? I think that there's a certain way I could grow and like find more depth in my style as a poet. And I think a lot of the people that I kind of have met as poets are in a different place. And so they're kind of
trying to pull me towards it like a more center. And what I kind of wish is that there were these people who were also kind of go down the same path with me. Like in a different way, but I can kind of understand it because I know that like, artistically, in games, there is a very specific flavor of game that I like to make. Even though the games that I have made are like, you know, not similar to each other. Like whenever Charu and I are talking about games, there is a very specific thing that we are always sort of drawing
references from. So for me, it comes from like, you know, okay, these are the kind of pieces that I want to make. But I wonder like, where the people piece comes for you? Because like, I'm, I feel like it's okay, even if other people don't get it or don't make games like that. Like, you know, especially when you talk about games, games is not seen as an artistic medium, especially in like an underdeveloped creator economy like India, games are definitely not seen as an artistic medium by most people. They're seen as a way of making money.
seen as a commercial, yeah, they're seen as a commercial medium, right? Like they're seen. And not just that, if you try to say that you have artistic aspirations, the feedback that you'll often get is, Oh, so it's just a hobby for you. And it's like, it's literally the same response that one would get if one is thinking about, I don't know, like, you know, if see, if you say I paint, and then people would be like, Oh, so that's your hobby. Right? Like, even if it's so serious quote, unquote, serious painter, people would be like, Oh, but that's your own. It's not a real thing that people do. I can't be considered
legit. I don't know, like, I've got a response also many times. But somehow, like, I've not really felt like, Oh, there would be those people who are out there and who would understand what I'm trying to do. This is interesting. I guess it comes back to intent for me, right? And I think it's there maybe there's other people who might make similar things without the intent. But I think finding other people who have a similar intent to you is really exciting. What if they wrote very differently? So like, let's say I would say your poetry feels very postmodern in nature, if I was
just to compare it to art, right? But like, what if somebody came from like similar viewpoints as you, but they wrote in like a new classical style? Like they wrote sonnets. But those sonnets came from the same principles as your poetry comes from. So for example, like in painting, it would be if somebody wanted to paint abstract paintings instead of like how the Hudson River school people painted the paintings, right? Like rather than classical, you're painting very abstractly. What does that feel like to you? I think like now I'm just thinking about style versus concept. And like, what are
you trying to find similarity in? It's funny you call that style because for me, style is almost the affect you put on the content, if you will. So like, it's the way the author paused on certain things, and the way they chose to highlight which facets of the content that felt stylistic to me, even more than say like the medium, or like, you know, the straight form, which of course, the form is a stylistic choice as well. But it's just interesting, because I think more for some reason of style as being like, you know,
when you look at a plant, did you choose to talk about the shades of green or the shades of yellow, or you know, the bark or versus it kind of being the form that of course they are both style. Though I guess maybe one is kind of more content than the other. I don't know. I also think that like that's a reflection of our own psychological preferences. Yeah, like where do we recognize a style as a choice and are able to appreciate it is in those areas where like, you know, we would be slightly more primed. So like,
let's say you are conceptually more interested in exploring different facets. So you're like, huh, you know, that's the one that I feel like is the continuity. And then like form can be whatever. Yeah, the rigidity of forms I find kind of like, that's fine, you know, no, I don't really care, like, it just doesn't do that much for me. I'm like, I'm great, like, you know, I can appreciate a lot of like, like forms like, you know, you know, an iambic pentameter, you know, like, you can really feel it in the way a piece of poetry feels. Or like, you know, in haiku, you
can really like feel it in like the way the meanings are like kind of captured and then reflected and even like, more of them as you read it more. I think it's interesting and maybe it's an interesting thing for us to talk to with our future guests as well. Because I think asking them about whether they consider themselves to be artists and in what situations in their lives do they consider themselves to be artistic, which is to be really interesting. Because I almost wish I had asked Fran that question now. Like, I wonder if she does consider herself to be an artist and you know, in what circumstances and was
that an identity she had for a while? And she move on from or does she kind of feel like it's been throughout? Very true. Also, because I think that like, I feel uncomfortable asking people that question, because I think I feel uncomfortable answering that question. Yeah. When you asked about what identity I felt I resonated with, I felt very uncomfortable. But then I realized that's because I feel uncomfortable with answering, because of what I feel like that question does. Right. So maybe it's similar for
you. But there's something about the framing of that question that makes you feel very uncomfortable. I think there's something about the weightiness of the word artist that feels uncomfortable to me. To me, I think it is an identity thing, right? It's like there's this this cultural identity of an artist. And if you play the identity game, then you feel like you have to, you know, enrobe yourself with it, right? Put it on and do you think we are so fascinated by identity? Because now we are talking to these people around us. And like, we're
getting into long, deep conversations with them, because of the podcast. And so like now both of us are also, I don't know, we have had a perception of what doing a podcast would be like, but now that's transforming. And so like, you know, we sort of start revolving around the themes of identity, because we are also exploring what that could be or like what the podcast could be and like how other people around us see themselves. Yes, and no, I think you're right. But I also think that it's kind of the age we are, right? We're both in our mid or
I mean, fine heart early to mid 30s. And I think there was a great quote that ran around social media for a while. But I think like, especially for queer people in your teens and 20s, there's kind of the sense of figuring out your identity. And then I think there's this realization as you kind of believe your 20s that identity can be different things. And you can kind of have these different identities in different moments. And they don't necessarily have to be at odds, whereas it really
felt like I think when you're a little bit younger, that you kind of have to choose and things are almost at odds. And I feel remember, I feel that way kind of like growing up that there's this like, Oh, you know, are you Indian? Are you American? Right? Like, which like people be like, which country do you love more? Right? Where do you want to be? So I don't know, I think that there's a thing that starts to happen in your 30s. I think maybe we're more in tune with it because we're spending a lot of time thinking about it with other people. But I even see all my
friends who are having children and right, even getting married, you start to feel like, Oh, yeah, this is this new identity. And then for some people, it's like, Oh, this has to be my identity, right? Not that this can be one I can put on. And I think we're actually talking to a computational mama was really interesting about that because she very much felt to me like someone who is like, Oh, I'll put this on, you know, I have this one that everyone's giving to me, I have this way, people want me to behave. But I want to have this other thing. So I'm going to create another identity
and put that on when I want to. It's very cool. But I think it's equally cool. And I like, shocking to me, frankly, how friend and other they do it, because they just seem to sidestep the question. And I feel almost like jealous in the ability to bring that kind of wherewithal. Yeah, it's only like in listening to it again, I realized that yeah, they just like very easily just skirted those questions away. Yeah, that's not even the most interesting thing. Yeah, I just want to do this. And then like, you
know, I want to do that. And yeah, you are correct. Like it is very, very inspiring to just see someone do that. Yeah, because I think if you think about it in tech, so many people don't do that, right? They're like, Oh, I am a product manager. Right. So you may have had something that caught your interest. But the notion of kind of leaving your discipline to chase your interest is really frowned upon. It's like, What the hell? You're a product manager, do product management, you want to learn to code, go do a general assembly like course on like, you know, coding and then come back
as a coder. But this notion that like you would chase your interest across different fields is so culturally not like we do in tech. So I don't know how much is that like how much are these people really being mavericks? Or how much is it the culture that they grew up in is a little bit different and less like siloed? No, but I'm really excited to like, you know, interview the next set of people and then just see where that leads us. Because I'm sure that, you know, just having a lot of different conversations with a lot of different types of folks is
going to there's a certain intimacy in just sitting with somebody for an hour and being like, I'm just going to listen to what you have to say. And I'm going to be interested in what you have to say. Like no wonder people love doing podcasts. I think also that's something you particularly love, right? Like I think you love getting to kind of know people and understand why they make the decisions they make. I think it's something I realized, you know, you will always ask
me if like I give a little sigh when I'm reading something, you'll be like, what was that sigh? And I really like it because it helps me unpack, you know, what was in that moment. But I think, you know, for obviously, of course, right? So I think getting to do that in a formal structure is an amazing part of having a podcast. I was going to add though that I think that we've arrived at something today here, which I think is really interesting. We've kind of been exploring these questions of identity so far this podcast. I think at least for me, I'm realizing that the side of identity that's
really interesting is this idea of artistic identity and what goes into it and who feels like it's accessible and who feels like they didn't need to worry about it and still feel artistic. It's just really interesting to me. So I almost love to, yeah, pick that up as we go forward this season and find more people to talk to about it. The music is by Akshay Ramu Halli of BTRPT Music. Editing is by Beatnik.