Thinking on Being Successful with Samhita Arni

Hi, I'm Divya. Hi, I'm Kahran. And this is... Thinking. I'm thinking.

Hello, and welcome to Thinking on Thinking. This week, we talked to Sam Arne in a fascinating conversation. We talk about what it means to be successful, what it means when you've had success, and can you keep holding onto it, or do you have to keep having more in order to stay feeling successful?

And then we come back into asking about how does that play into identity, and how does your identity change as your feelings of success change? How does your feelings of success change as you change, and your identity, or maybe the identity of your younger self no longer feels as appropriate? It was an incredible episode, and we hope you love listening to it as much as we loved

recording it. Thank you for joining us today. It's so nice to have you here. Thank you so much, Kahran. I'm so glad that you invited me.

Do you think you could give a little intro about who you are and where you grew up and how you came here? Sure thing. Thank you. I'm Samhita Arne.

I have wear multiple hats professionally, but I consider myself primarily a storyteller. I've written for books. I've worked a bit in the film industry, written a TV series in Afghanistan and a film, and I also studied to be a psychotherapist for now four years. So that's sort of my bundle of professional identities I also teach.

And how I came to be here is my father is actually a spy. It's true he is a spy. I'm not lying about this. Used to work for the Indian intelligence. And I grew up all across the world in Indonesia, Pakistan, which is a big one if you're the

daughter of an Indian spy, Thailand, and did college in the US and in schooling in a bit in Italy. So sort of from all over the place. So I guess that's who I am. I have this very complicated professional identity, which is many things.

I also have this, I feel more and more as I grow older, really getting in touch with this kind of trans-cultural identity I have. I'm Indian, but I've also got this sort of multicultural background and experience and I really that's becoming more important to me as I grow older. So I guess that in a nutshell is who I am and how I came to be here.

And I know Kahran. But you're settled in Bangalore. Yes, you do know Kahran. How did you get settled in Bangalore? I don't think I've ever asked you that.

Because at the end of many years of sort of living this nomadic lifestyle of growing up in different countries, I really wanted to set down roots and I really wanted to stay in a place that I could feel committed and connected to. It was very important for me. And the place that I came up with was Bangalore because my father had grown up here and his

family is from here. So we have a lot of extended family and I'd come back here quite often on vacations, but also because my grandmother was here. And at some point my grandmother started to have Alzheimer's and I decided that the thing I wanted to do with my life was to move to Bangalore and look after her while and you

know, just spend those last few years of her life with her. So I ended up living in Bangalore for four and a half years and and then I just decided to stay on. Wow. Wow.

And so your brother didn't, the family came after you. You were the first one. Yes. Wow. Yes.

I've never, and then did you feel conflicted about your identity as an Indian when you were growing up? Very much. Which is one of the reasons I wanted to come and settle in India and this decision to live here in Bangalore was important because I don't have that conflict anymore and I'm able

to reconcile this Indian and this growing up across the world, but also being Indian aspect. I felt very conflicted about it, particularly as someone who is writing, even as a child about Indian mythology, Indian culture. I think the reason for that, that was the desire for that connection, for that identity. So I was writing about it in order to make it my own.

So I've always been dealing with that. Also because I speak English, you know, and English is the language I think in English is the language I write in English is the language I breathe. It's the language I work in as a writer. So sometimes, you know, you, we were really dealing with these hybrid identities where

I always feel like an imposter, particularly coming from Bangalore, you know, because this is supposedly my hometown where my family comes from. I'm supposed to speak Kannada. I can't speak Kannada fluently. So I feel like an imposter.

I mean, actually don't really speak Kannada. I communicate to auto drivers in Kannada somehow mysteriously. It happens. I speak English. I speak a little bit of Hindi and I, weirdly, I can read ancient Greek.

So it's, it's, yeah, I guess we all deal with this kind of anglophilic, westernized mindsets. It's just really interesting talking to people about issues of identity this podcast season. And I don't know, it's, it's something that I really struggle with. I think especially I've been doing this thing called the artist's way. We were heard of this book by Julia Cameron.

Yes, I have. Have you done it? I tried to. I still do sometimes the morning pages, but I don't do the other stuff. Yeah.

Okay. But you like, you did the whole 10 weeks. Somewhat something. Interesting. But did you feel like, I don't know, how did you feel you were doing it?

I feel like it's good as a brain round. Like there's a lot that just like is stuck in my head that I'm able then to also understand how I'm thinking. But I started, I so I kept that morning pages routine and I've done it on and off for a couple of years now. Oh, wow. So it is, yeah, maybe it does work because I do, I am more in control of my thought process now.

Yeah. Do you feel like subtle changes happened in your life after you started them? So I have been doing something else, which is really interesting, which is, I wrote Progof's depth journaling process. And I feel that has opened up a lot for me.

Ira Progof, it does this journaling workshop thing. And he's a depth psychologist, I think based out of New York, early 20th century, mid 20th century. I'm not sure exactly the dates of might have his dates completely wrong, but he developed a journaling method that utilizes a lot of depth psychology in it to also create, you know, sort of communicate with one's own unconscious and create a narrative for one's life. Wait, can you, I don't, what is depth psychology?

Oh, like Jungian analysis. Yeah, I see. We have depth in our psyches. I could think of that also as psychotherapy or that's like applied depth psychology. Yeah, yeah.

So it's a very psychoanalytic kind of way of working with them. Oh, interesting. So I found that has opened up a lot because suddenly there'll be these insights and then things do kind of work seamlessly. Yeah. How cool.

Yeah, I don't know. Did you, did you like always have a journaling practice or did that start at some point? Not really. I feel like I should be this disciplined, regular, consistent person. So this is an identity I grab.

I really aspire to be this disciplined, routine oriented person who has a journaling practice, but no, I've had one intermittently through the years, but not a regular one. Say more about this. How come you feel like you should be a disciplined, routine person? Isn't that what we're all supposed to be? I don't know.

I feel like the challenge in my life. And I guess maybe this is also something about coming from a creative background, but also having to fit into this regular world. And often with this corporate world is you have to fit into structure. So my difficulty is creating enough space in my life that I still feel the freedom to be creative, but also work with these structures and deadlines and all of those sorts of things. And routine would really help with meeting some of those deadlines and goals.

It's interesting you say it like that, though. So it's not like you feel like you need it to be consistently productive, like having a consistent level of output over time. Or is that what you're saying? And I'm just putting in different words. I've so there are times when I'm incredibly productive and there are times when I'm not.

I'm realized that I have to make my peace with that. But I'm I don't know how important productivity is anymore, actually. Yeah, I feel very similarly, actually, because I think something I've also struggled with is this notion that I really work in bursts and and kind of just. Being OK with that and not being frustrated with yourself in those periods where you're like, why am I not being productive? Why do I feel like I need to lie down?

Like, what is this? Because I think there's this idea that when you get to a certain level of seniority or a certain level of success, that you I don't know, you become more super human almost. Right. Like you become you have this. We just do great things all the time. I don't know. Do you feel that way?

Or do you do you feel like that's. Yeah, I guess I do feel that way because I think I constantly people constantly project this idea of success on to me. Or maybe people I mean my parents. People think I'm successful and I actually don't always feel successful because I'm not able to always cope with the challenges or really rise up to them in the way that I wish I did. Right. Like, you know, be that super human person who's managing all of these projects is a great leader and a great manager.

No, I'm actually not on those things. I'm really especially now. I think over the last couple of years when one has been sort of put in leadership positions, I'm really struggling with it and what it means. That's so interesting. You say that. I mean, at least, you know, as I think about people in my even my greater community, I think of you as what being one of the most successful, especially at bridging that gap of like being able to be true to your artistic self, but also be building a career and not even building a career in something that's like totally unrelated.

Right. Which I think some people do. But that's so interesting. Like, what do you feel like would make you feel successful? Or are there other people who you feel like are successful that you look at? And like, what is the aspects that they seem to have that you don't feel like you have?

So I've actually been thinking about this a great deal. The kind of people that we hold to be successful in our contemporary culture, right? You look at all of these business tycoons and leaders. I don't think that's successful. Or at least even if I achieve that, I wouldn't consider myself successful because I think there's a lot of prices that one has to pay.

And also considering whether the trade off is worth it is part of it. So I'm also, I don't know what success is. Sometimes I just think it's value creation. I'm coming more and more to the idea that it's not only creating value for yourself, but creating value for others. And if you're able to create value in other people's lives, that is success.

Whether you're a teacher, whether you're a janitor, whether you're a tea shop owner, and you're content in that. And you see the value you are creating. And maybe that is success. I am still grappling with seeing that for myself. So I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but last summer I went to this poetry workshop at the Jack Kerak School in Boulder.

And I did one of my first poetry readings or my very first poetry reading and I put it on Instagram. And later that year I was at New York Pride, maybe, I don't know, like a month or so later. And this guy ran up to me and he was like, are you a poet? I saw your poetry on Instagram. I just want to say it really touched me.

And I was so taken aback that I didn't even, I mean, I gave him a hug and I don't even know what I said. Because it just really was so, I don't know, it didn't quite process what was happening at that moment. Now since then, I kind of forget about it a lot, right? Like it's not something that ever comes top of mind to me when I'm struggling writing something, thinking about it. But I mean, to be fair, I think I feel very similar about success as you kind of just

described. And it's like, well, you touched someone. So isn't that success? I don't know, do you feel that way? Like, I mean, you must have touched people through you've had so much work that you produced and you've touched and you've made. And I'm lucky to have had that and lucky to have felt that. So I mean, when you were talking about that experience, I suddenly remembered something that I had also completely forgotten,

which was like last month I was in some event and some girl came to me and she said, are you, are you Samhita Arne? And I said, yes. And she said, you know, your book really, the fact that, you know, it put her on some sort of career path and she really liked illustration and design. And it made her aware of that and helped her explore it.

And then she became a designer. So she sort of felt that she owed that part in some way to some seed I had planted through one of these books I written. Wow. And I felt like at that point, I was grateful to I'm like, thank you for telling me this because I'm just coming out of this moment where I'm struggling to understand whether I'm contributing to the planet in any useful way.

And thank you for giving that to me. You know, like I feel like, okay, I've done something, but we forget and we really forget about the impact that we're making in other people's lives. I don't know whether the thing is to remind ourselves of it. Do we take time out every day and remember, okay, I touched that person, I touched that person, I touched that person. I don't know because sometimes you also need to fill your own thing to keep going, right?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that's something Julia Cameron talks a lot about in the artist's way, right? Is this notion that like, you know, every few days or every week you need to go and fill your cup, right? Take your little artist for a date and go and do something with them. Do you still incorporate that idea at all?

Do you like take yourself out for artist's dates ever? I do push my boundaries. Like I will try to do things that I haven't tried before. I think that is the stuff that I really need to keep doing for myself, that that's what makes me feel alive. I think that I think what Julia Cameron is also talking about is introducing something new into your life.

So you're constantly creative a little bit. Yeah, but also I think just some things that like sometimes what you need is reassurance, not necessarily novelty, right? Like my artist's date this week, I went and saw the Beyonce movie just because I find her so inspiring, you know? And I find her willingness to kind of keep dreaming bigger always like so inspiring. As you have kind of changed careers or thought about, have you thought about yourself differently?

Like how would you introduce yourself today and has that changed? Yeah, you know, I was having this conversation with my mother because so many people we identify ourselves by what we do. And sometimes I do this, I do this, sometimes I do this. But really all of these are ways so that I can like kind of sustain myself and keep going and have some money and have some extra money so I can have some adventures.

So I think that's how I introduce myself. I started off in life as a writer and like that's what people know me as and I try to parlay that into different skills and areas. And basically all of this is just to keep my life interesting and make some money and have some adventures and meet interesting people. That's my identity. So it sounds like your identity is around searching for adventure and enabling that search?

One part of it is. I think there are many things, right? And the problem with identities is that I think we're always in the quest of something singular that we can say this is who I am. I am a rebel who is also a leader and an artist, right? And then it makes perfect sense about who we are. But I think in our own heads, these parts are separated and different, right?

There's a Sam who wants adventure. There's a Sam who wants to be committed and routine oriented. And then there's a Sam who likes to write and then there's a Sam who really questions whether writing is the medium to get in touch with people today and really connect in a country like India, whether it's really that effective. So there are and then there's a Sam who likes to teach and wants to pass on her skills and whatever she's learned. But and then there's Sam, the person who's been a teacher and taught and all of that and seen a lot of her own students go through trauma,

has been through her own trauma. So suddenly in the middle of this, decided to go and study psychotherapy. So it's just a muddle, the sightedity. And then do you feel like you try to nurture all the different parts? Like if you haven't taught for a while, will you try and find something that satisfies that part of you?

Yeah, I think the thing that difficulty is balancing the hungers of all the different parts. And yeah, definitely like this week I started again. And I know that for a friend of mine who is a teacher and very close friend, she's kind of burnt out of teaching and she says, I'm done with teaching. I'm done with teacher training.

But then I walked into this session and I don't actually know what any of the people walked away with that was really useful for them in their teaching careers. But I had so much fun doing it. And I'm trying to make it as relevant as possible to that audience. But it's also about my own satisfaction that I just get from being in that space. Does that relate back to your notion of success?

Like do you feel like that is something that makes you feel successful? Like being able to feel fulfillment in that way? I don't know what fulfillment is entirely. I know it when I feel it, but I guess fulfillment is also that sense of, okay, everything that I am, I'm bringing to this moment. But you must feel fulfillment when you like create like finish a work,

whether it's a column or a book or I don't know, maybe like a movie, like something a creative work. Do you feel some sense of like, oh, this is done. I feel I've done my done right by this. I mean, there is a contentment that comes after you like, okay, that draft is gone. I've re-read it, re-read it, re-read it.

It's been copied. It's going to print tomorrow. Okay. You're like, few done relieved. But the truth is the book continues or the piece continues even after it's published, right? You meet people.

They'll challenge you. And when you start speaking to them, you will also get certain insights about the own process of writing, ways in which one could have developed a character, all of that. So I feel like the process is actually not over for me when I publish or put out a book.

Will you continue to like re-write it or like even for your first books, you'll still think about it like, oh, I could do this thing differently. Yeah. And that makes its way into a new book, right? So like definitely there's a part of my first book that I want to re-write and that's actually turning into a couple of chapters in a new book. So that is something that's happening.

It's interesting also how I asked you a question about success at it, kind of became an answer about inspiration. Yeah. I think also inspiration is a relationship between people like, particularly, okay, so sometimes there'll be something in my life and I'll be inspired by that. And if that inspiration sticks, I write a book on it or I write a book that's built around that moment of inspiration. And in this case, I have my inspiration right in front of me to remind me every day for the last five years about this book that I'm writing, which is this young girl I met in Madurai who now must not be a young girl.

She must be a young woman and I have not met her again. But there was this movement of connection we had and she's become part of me and that is my source of inspiration, right? That's she is my muse in a way. This is why there's a couple of pictures of her here up on my wall that I see. And so she's my source of inspiration for this book.

How interesting. So this usually happens for you that you'll connect with someone or something? It's different with each book. I know that the last book that got published was like, it was a relationship that was the source of inspiration. And that I really built the main character on was this relationship that I had had with this person who had then left my life. So, you know, bad love affairs are always the best thing to like turn into a material or fodder

for one's creative process. So Taylor Swift has taught us and many before. But I think it's in that moment of writing that you experience that intimacy with that person or that connection that has left from your life, right? Because you have to like, I broke up, didn't speak to this person for years.

But you know, because of your writing it and you feel like you're writing this book as an ode to the character, you so completely internalize what you liked about that person that you become that person only. Oh, how interesting. And when you say that, do you mean you become the person you were then? Or you feel like you become the other person? The person that I imagined, the imagined lover, the imagined girl that I've met, right?

I've met them short periods of time. Relationship lasted six months, but I spent four years writing that book. Yeah. There was a lot. Love is also an act of imagination. That reminds me of someone I met once.

And it was about six, maybe eight months. And I think he was like actually a sociopath. He was my downstairs neighbor when I owned an apartment in Seattle. He had at one point a key ring, like with his keys on it. And there were four engagement rings on it.

And I asked him what they were and they were boys that had proposed to him. And he said he kept them to remind him of his sorrow. I never forgotten that line, right? He kept them to remind him of his sorrow. And I was just like, what?

It was a level of sort of like, I was so intrigued by it. And I still am in some way so intrigued by it because it's kind of callousness. It's kind of, it's just like a different thinking about emotions than I'd ever encountered before. And it was so intriguing to me. Like I was just like, how, how do you operate?

Because for me, it's so, I operate in such a different world that it's so hard to imagine kind of operating in that world. So I have to ask this question because you have now introduced this very interesting character into our conversation who I don't know, but now I have to know a few details. And the thing is, so he felt sorrow at rejecting these four potential marriage partners.

Is that what, what it was? I remember him explaining to me how someone had proposed to him in Edinburgh, like at the castle, like while there were fireworks. Somehow the stories would always kind of be there, right? Like they never would, and you would ask a question like that,

but you would never end up in that answer. I don't know. It was, okay, wait, though, I'm going to bring you back though, because I feel like I'll, for the, we'll again say that I feel like you didn't quite answer my question. So as you kind of think about how you've introduced yourself over the years,

so there was a time you introduced yourself as an author. Is that fair? Yeah, yeah, I did. But I would say I would be more of a writer because an author is like a status you get after you've done something, but a writer is the continuous act of doing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a really beautiful way of framing it. There's like some Instagram meme I feel like I saw over the years, which it's like, you know, a lot of people want the noun, but don't want the verb. And I feel like that's kind of captured in what you just said. Interesting.

I now define myself more as a storyteller. I moved away from writer even to thinking of myself as a storyteller. So now you feel like you're not as constrained by words. No, I think even conversations, even performances, we're always telling stories, right? You just told me this fascinating story.

So you are also a storyteller. I'm just professionalizing it. And then as you were kind of saying a few minutes ago, you feel, do you feel like you live at the intersection of these identities? Or there's kind of this core identity, which is I'm a storyteller,

and then there's these things that spring forth from there. I don't know because the more and more I delve deeper into my identity, it just then I slip into some other level. And then I find that that identity also doesn't exist and I slip into something else. I mean, a storyteller is definitely part of who I am.

But I would also say that for me sometimes, because it was done, you know, psychotherapy and psychology for the last four years, the healing is a huge part of also what I would like to make my identity. As in being healed or healing, like the action of doing it or the state of being healed? Both. But I do feel like one of the things I do with mythology, with stories, with fairy tales is

I'm trying to retell them in a way that heals myself. These are the books that I would have wanted to read as a child, as an adult, especially as talking about a relationship to culture. So I'm writing these books for an alternate, a younger version of myself sometimes, but that is an act of healing for myself.

And hopefully might be an act of healing that I can offer others. So do you feel like that's something you could achieve and would make you feel successful? Can you achieve healing? Well, no, I'm saying when you kind of frame it in that way, right? When you're saying, like, I want to create these artifacts that I wish had existed when I was young,

that would have kind of been these benefits to me on this journey. Like, you can do that. In some ways, you have done that. Does that make you feel successful or is it kind of in that same thing where we were talking about a few minutes ago, you feel successful for a moment?

Yeah. Yeah, I feel so good. When you say that, I was like, yeah, I've done a lot of that, but I don't feel successful. I don't know.

I don't know what. I think it's also this, we're living at a very complex time, right? There's so much that's problematic in the world also that we're seeing, that we're witness to, that we're living through. It is hard to feel successful at these moments, I believe,

particularly when, you know, constantly every day, you're sort of seeing a lot of mental health challenges. And I'm, you know, the work that I deal with is culture. So, I mean, I don't think that mental health is, mental health has a huge cultural component because a lot of the issues

that create these situations are systemic. So it's hard to feel successful. Maybe it's a perspective. Maybe if I switched my perspective and said, hey, I'm, you know, I've accomplished three things today off my to-do list, I wouldn't feel successful.

But I don't know. Maybe there's also a part of me that, and this is, I'm thinking this thought for the first time, that it's okay to feel unsuccessful and to want to learn to do more. Have you ever thought about these notions of like good fuel and bad fuel?

Do you feel like that applies in the situation? About kind of harmonious passion and the obsessive passion? Yeah. I think, yeah, usually it talks about it more clearly. I was hoping, but I think I love that, actually, that framing, right? Kind of just the notion of like, you know, some things, they'll give you energy,

but is it a destructive energy over time, right? Will it kind of like, eat away at you? Or, you know, there's, there's kind of other places that maybe can be a more sustainable source of energy. Yeah, perhaps.

I mean, I'm also sitting with myself and trying to understand where my, my own sense of a lack of success is coming from. And I know that part of it is also being a 39 year old woman in who's single. And the fact that I can live singly and support myself in this choice is perhaps a sign of success, perhaps a success.

But at the same time, I feel like I'm going against, and I guess you must also feel this color in that we are sort of breaking away from so many cultural norms. It's, it's a fight also, you know, it's a fight in my head every day to respect myself. Even now, you know, I'm on the sort of discussing with my friend today. We're both showing the signs and the symptoms of petty menopause a few years earlier than expected.

But making this transition into a different life, one where one is not, you know, one, we have all of these ideas of what menopausal women are like, but it's this other life transition. And there's this tendency to look at menopausal women and say, what worth are they contributing to society? They're not reproducing, blah, blah, blah.

You know, there are all these fears that are coming up in my head, even as I explore this notion, which are completely false, completely false, because the human civilization has evolved because of the labor that menopausal women can do in terms of child rearing, in terms of nurturing, in terms of being present as grandmothers. One of the few species that goes through menopause

and one of the most intelligent species, there's a relationship between that process. But in my head, because of all of this cultural conditioning, I'm still struggling with accepting this transition. Well, you feel like, like culturally, you should have been married before now. I should have married, I should have produced children and...

Did you want to have children? Do you want to? No, I mean, it was a conscious choice. I love children. I have pictures of them and I'm inspired by them and I write books for them. But I can only do that because I don't have them and I don't have to be a parent. I can just be their friend. Yeah.

But you still feel like, even though that wasn't a bar for success you put for yourself, you still kind of feel it. Am I saying that back right? Yes, because I think I live in a society where I'm still judged by this, right? I meet a person on the street. I meet a person, I'm constantly meeting clients. Are you married? Do you have children? No, no, no.

And you can see the thought process arise in them. That's so interesting. For many years, I've always felt like the first thought people must have when they meet me is like, oh, he's gay. And then they would think less of me. And it was very hard to kind of realize, I don't know, I mean, I still don't always realize, but to realize first of all that not everyone has that thought and then not everyone has the subsequent

thought. And in fact, there's a whole plethora of, you know, for starting thoughts and then there's a whole, you know, web of expansion places that the thoughts can go from there. And I've managed to zero in on one starting place and one follow up, right? Yeah, just when you were saying that, it reminded me of it. I'm not sure if I have any insight to share there, but it just... It was so interesting to come to your commitment ceremony, actually.

And to, you know, because I said, I felt like what you were doing was also redefining in some ways the role that making a choice of committing to a partner can do for one's own sense of self and how that expression of self can be a courageous act. It can be an act of self expression. It is an act of love as well, because you're building this actually quite, you know, I feel as when I see your life together, this very adventurous life together. So I think for me,

it was also this moment when I suddenly said, wow, I mean, gay marriages have so much to offer the institution of marriage in reviving and renewing this institution. Otherwise, because otherwise marriage is about children, domesticity, settling down, living a, like, you know, paying a mortgage on a house, buying a car. And what you did was completely reinvented into something fun and something about oneself and about the person one wanted to be. So for me, the success is you

just like, I would see that for me, that is just doing that, realizing that, celebrating that sharing that that to me is success. Well, yeah. And in my mind, right, like I feel that whole, you know, four day extravaganza was was really successful, right, because I kind of both felt like I had something to prove where I wanted to kind of show that, you know, we could have as big of a wedding as anyone, even though we were we are gay, right. And, you know, we were having it in

India, which is not a place that has a lot of big gay weddings, especially that are not celebrities, right. Most of the people who I see getting married in India have these really small ceremonies, like often in Kerala, and it's like, it's very beautiful. But, you know, it's like, why not? Why can't we and I really feel really happy that we did and we did very successfully. But I think also a big part of it was that I wanted to create an experience, right. And I

wanted people to walk away with a certain feeling. And I think that was really successful. And it's unfortunate sometimes to prejudice your feelings of success based on other people's takeaways, because it doesn't give you, you know, you only have so much control over that. And I think in some ways what you said a few minutes ago, where you were saying that I'm not an author, but I do the act of writing, and that's kind of what I feel like is successful. I don't

know, or maybe I'm kind of bleeding there. But I feel like that's, it's nice if you can focus on the verb. I feel like something I did, because I feel like you seem to share some of the perfectionist traits that I think I also. And I think something I did over the years is I just expanded my tolerance band, right, where I'm like, well, you know, this might be like, like a B sort of work, but that's okay here, right. Because I realized I'm never going to be able to escape from feeling

like things need to have a certain level of quality. But maybe I can just bring down that quality bar a little bit. So then I can be a little bit more comfortable and saying like, okay, you know, fine, like maybe, I'm trying to think of a good example. But the only one I could think of is like, fine, maybe your reception decor isn't quite like where you're hoping it to be. But if you kind of, if you focus on that, right, then you, you just attract from your overall

enjoyment, because you can find things to make yourself unhappy about. But like, I don't know, there's also going to be the kid that ran up on the, to you on the street, because they heard you reading and made them really happy. I think my for me, also the idea of success is more and more like community as well. I think so many of this past generation, these high achievers who just sort of skyrocketed out of everyone's grasp, you know, and we look up to these people. And now I believe

more and more like success is also something that we have to bring others along with us. Like, how is my success meaningful for my students, for example, when I'm a teacher, how do I channel it in ways it's also a platform for them. I think that's when my success feels meaningful. So I think when you also, you know, you and Garib got married and you shared that that was deeply meaningful for me because it showed me it was a very public declaration of another path and another way of

being just another way of framing a relationship, forget, you know, everything else, but just that love can be an active self expression. And also the community that you brought together around that to celebrate that, right? That's huge power in that, you know, when you celebrate things, those memories remain in your brain, you build on those moments. That's very powerful. I think, yeah, actually, my dad and I had a conversation kind of on the cusp of my wedding. And it was about how

a wedding is one of the few times where people will let you take them on an experience, really kind of blindly, right? It's like, whatever you want to do for this period, we will do it with you. And there's almost no other circumstance where you can just kind of, you know, and like you're saying, create almost a formative memory for someone that they didn't really have a choice in that creation after someone's no longer a child. You know, once people are adults, they

remain with a lot of agency generally in their lives, which kind of is a roundabout way of coming to a point I wanted to ask you. For me, I've always like defined success a lot around agency, right? And I think the thing that's helped me feel successful is the fact that I feel like I have agency, and I have a lot of control over my time and how I want to spend it. And I think even I could extend that to kind of what you were just saying right now, that I think being able to

create optionality for people, being able to give them agency, is that it's a nice way of, I don't know, adding value to their lives. And I almost would kind of even add another facet, which I think when you have agency, you're less reactive a lot of the times, right? You're less often in situations where you don't have time to make a considered decision, right? You're more able to have the time and space to think about something before you react. I don't know. So does that,

does that definition resonate with you? How do you, how do you feel? Yes, I think that that actually makes a lot of sense in terms of success, because I do feel like maybe in the last couple of years in my life, I've really gotten to that place where I can afford to wake up and spend an hour thinking about a problem or an issue or explore an emotion that I'm feeling and solve it or integrate it or resolve it in some way. And I did not have that freedom early in my life. And I can

see the difference it makes to my own growth and evolution. So yes, definitely I have the agency to choose how I spend my time, the agency to prioritize growth and development over say, finances or something else of that nature. And that I think is a great value that has great, but that is maybe perhaps that is success. You say it like you don't fully believe it though. It was like cognitive, yes, a tentative, emotional, yes. I think I feel the pressure to do something

big with it. I guess if I really deep down try to think I'm like, you know, to feel successful, I have to achieve something huge. But even as I say that, I mean, I don't necessarily believe that that's a mark of success. I mean, you've written bestselling novels, like you have done huge things. But that was like 10 years ago. 20 years ago, I don't know. I can't count. It was a while ago. But do the thing is also like the journey is not linear. First two books,

extremely successful. Third book, I don't think anyone has heard of it. Fourth book did decently, but not to the same level as the other two books, right? And there's a part of me that wishes I could just say got bestseller after bestseller, each one did better than the rest. And that's not true. My journey is more of a graph and up and down kind of graph. And there is value in that journey, because it's obviously part of that is happening, because I'm pushing my limits,

I'm trying out new things, I'm going down new paths. But it doesn't always feel successful, because I'm also comparing it to a previous benchmark that perhaps I should let go of. I feel like I finally have started to understand what you were trying to say. In your mind, almost the desire to be successful is a motivation. Perhaps, yeah, yes, yes, yes. And I'm something I fight against. Because I'm like, if I if I just want to be successful, if I just want to hit that

achievement level, right, okay, write another book, then I'm just going to repeat the wheel. I'm just going to keep doing the same thing that I did over. I can write another children, you know, but I want to do something different, because I want to also express who I'm growing into and becoming in my work. So if I don't do that, I stifle myself. But if I go down that path, it doesn't always lead to the kind of recognition that compares to the recognition I've gotten

for previous works. And like, what if you did, I don't know, something that that didn't have the same barometer, that I don't know, like some more niche work or something, would that feel differently? You do feel so I think when I broke away, and this is when I decided, okay, like, I'm trying out a new career. So I went and became a teacher. And I feel I loved teaching. And I was very loved by my students, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm like the best or most

effective teacher, but it was a very enjoyable experience. And it still is. Wait, wait, sorry, I'm going to push back for a second there. So so you, and to remind our listeners, right, the context of the Indian education system is definitely not one where most students love their teachers. But you managed to create like a very positive educational experience for this group of students. But why did you say that you weren't this short, you were a good teacher?

I like performing in the classroom. So sometimes it becomes about me. Oh, well, I think not just that actually, you know, I give my students also the space to perform, they like that permission to express themselves. The one of the big moment of wake up calls in my life was when I was teaching a class and it was called learning about love romance and literature. I mean, so we were reading all of these love stories, actually talking about them in really

interesting ways. Like so we read Pride and Prejudice and talked about economic inequality. And then, you know, you get your students to reflect on, okay, do you see this in your patterns of relationships? Right. And how do you deal with this question of income inequality in your in your relationships and your gender roles? And so does a had a fantastic time teaching that class. I loved it. But I was also this very lenient teacher, right? I wanted my students to like me.

So I remember like when we had to have an assignment to all of my students came in. And some of them hadn't done it. And so I gave them like this. Sadia, you can turn it in by the end of the day. And then I turned to one of my students was just thinking they're looking really sad. And I said, you know, tell me why you're looking so sad. And she says, you know, I woke up at four o'clock in the morning to get this done on time. I made

that sacrifice. Now you're letting everyone else off the hook. And that was this moment wake up call for me because I was like, I need to encourage that behavior of that girl who wakes up at four o'clock in the morning to turn something on time because that is going to enable her success later on in life. And I can't just bring everyone down to the same level. So this was another moment, or like, Oh, my God, I need to, you know, get my act together. So that that was that was a wake

up call moment. Now I know what what podcast episode to recommend. We did one on niceness versus kindness. And I feel that is a really beautiful example of it, right? Sometimes the nice thing to do is not the kind thing to do. No, I'm realizing it more and more like even, you know, when we were talking before this, this podcast about being a leader and a manager, actually, sometimes a manager has to be a very not nice person. And sometimes that is the kind thing

to do, right? Because I think one of the hardest things I had to do was when I when I shut down video next, I think it was not a nice thing to do, right? Because there are people who had been there for 13 years. But they'd spent 13 years there, right? And it's like, if you're spent 13 years at a startup that's kind of been failing for that long, and it just has investors willing to kind of keep bankrolling new ideas, the problem is you're not growing, right? You're not growing as

a person in your career, you're not building new connections, you're not getting somewhere, right? And the reason why people choose startups like that is because they think they're going to get a disproportionate payout at the end of it. But when it's clear, you're not getting the disproportionate payout at the end of it, it's not the right thing to do to let someone continue in that situation, even if they want to, right? And then maybe I don't know, I mean, I know,

I have a little tendency towards, I don't know whether to call it authoritarianism or just this kind of idea that you might be able to make people's decisions for them better than they can. But sometimes I think you have better visibility and knowledge, right? And information sharing is not perfect. And so, yeah, I don't know, I think shutting down video next was a very difficult thing, but it was in the end the kind thing to do, I think, for everyone involved at

the time. Of course, four months later, we got a pandemic. So who knows what would have happened and tech did very well in the pandemic. But when I hear you say that, I think it's also about leadership, you know, choosing to shut down a company is an incredibly hard decision to make. Even, I mean, I can only, if I put myself in your shoes and to imagine what that must have taken for you to admit, hey, this company needs to shut down, but impact people's lives. I'm still going to

make this decision. And I still believe it's the right decision. That's what a process that is. What a journey that is. Yeah. And my father was chairman of the board. It was his and his and his friends had really kind of been funding it for years. And even after everyone else had kind of lost faith, my father was the one who really had faith. And I think to kind of, you know, have that conversation with him that I did not see a path and I did not think he should keep

putting money into this company. Yeah, it was an interesting one. I think it took us a few years actually to kind of like really get over then find a new place for our relationship, because it wasn't that he was upset, but I think I there's still words we haven't said, right? And I think words that are unsaid kind of fester until they either kind of become a place where they don't matter anymore, or you know, you finally actually deal with them. I think in our case, it reached

the point where it didn't matter anymore. But yeah, it definitely was a was a point in my life, for sure. But I also admire you hugely for that current to like have been able to do that. Like it's I because I meet so many founders in Bangalore who are always trying to talk about their previous startups is these great successes, even though they had to shut them down. This authenticity, this honesty, but also this thing of seeing, you know, the hard stuff that

you had to deal with, like, and how that impacted all of your relationships. And that's huge. Yeah. Yeah. And I think also all the things you don't really see, right? Like, like my father doesn't really hang out with the people who were on that board of that company as much anymore. And those were some of his closest closest friends. And I always felt like I took that away from him. But I think something that happens when you are someone who really prides

yourself on agency and thinks about agency a lot as a barometer for success is you can sometimes take on too much agency, right? You know, people make their own choices. And sure, we can create scenarios and we can try and smooth the path or make things easier in different ways. But at the end of the day, people are making their own choices, and they will continue to make their own choices, whether whether you want them to or not. So like, this is interesting when you talk about

that, because I feel like even this concept of success applies to the story that you've just shared, which is like, okay, on one level, the company failed. So that is not a success. But on another level, you for you to acknowledge these things and be honest about them is successful for your development, right? So there is this dual notion on this more complicated idea, I think of what is success? I mean, success is also growth of the individual on some level. So,

hey, the company failed, but you grown through that, you could think about like, I think we peaked at what like 4,000 student tutor matches, right? I think we trained maybe 8,000 tutors at some point. So like, we introduced this ideas of using technology to a large portion of at least the Bangalore tuition community, somewhat of the Gorgonow tuition community. Yeah. And those things, right, these are the ripples that do eventually make change. It's hard though, because and you know,

even as I'm telling you this story, Divya always scolds me about this part. But like, I did, I did spin off part of the company, right? And that's been off called Quiznext did get acquired three years later. It wasn't like a huge acquisition, but right, like it did have that kind of outcome. And they've always like, dude, like if anyone else was telling the story, all they would talk about is the spin off being acquired. Yes. Oh, yes. I'm like, it was four years later, I wasn't even

involved. But yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting, I think, where you put the meter for yourself, right? Where you said, what was success for me? Where was that bar when I started out on this thing? But I think that's why I asked you so many questions early on, because I feel like for me at least, setting myself like lower bars I know I can achieve is just nice nicer for me, right? Because I feel like I never feel once I get there that I'm like, oh, I'm here, let me stop.

It's always like, I want to go to the next thing. But feeling like I've at least gotten here just makes you feel nice, you know? I think also success is never a destination, right? It's some part of one, I guess, even for me that, yeah, I've had successes, but somehow I can't hold them with me because I've grown past them. Like you're not that person anymore? Yeah. Interesting. I mean, I brought that person and that person has enabled who I am today. But if I can't, if I've been

and repeated that success, I'm not sure I'd have been successful today. Well, like some of the things that made me feel the most successful are there's like a few people who I know I've like changed the trajectory of their lives, right? Like they've talked to me about it about how, you know, before they met me, they just thought about life in a different way. And afterwards, even what they could imagine for themselves had changed, right? And some things

that had changed in a way that now they were going in a different direction. And I feel very proud of some of those, right? Like I feel very proud that I could have enabled that for people. Like that to me is, it feels more timeless. Like do you feel like you could shape your like reshape your successes in a way that would feel more timeless? I think so. And I think what you said about like, you know, okay, shifting the trajectory of someone's life, that for me is like a huge

success, right? You told me about one earlier this very podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I have a few successes, but it's more meaningful than like, say, getting x degree from x institution, at least to me, though, for some people, getting x degree from x institution is, you know, huge given where they've come from. Got it. Got it. Got it. It's like the people who forever went to IIT is kind of what you're saying. Like, there is a world of them. And that defines

that. That's also it, right? Because we're talking about identity. Success can limit your identity if you perpetually define yourself constantly as a person who achieved this success. Does it allow you to grow? I mean, I think holding on to success can sometimes prevent you from growing. That reminds me a bit of how some of the people I know later in life, who are very interesting, like even after they've retired, they often introduce themselves and define themselves

through their interests. We both have this close friend whose father will always introduce himself talking about what he's currently like working on or currently interested in, right? He never really talks about like, Oh, you know, we have this company that's, you know, built it, it's fortunate mining or, you know, that's in real estate, you never really talks about his past things. And I feel like it's just so interesting, I think, when people are talking about their

interests, you know, it's something that you can engage with them on, whereas I feel like if people are so much like caught up in their past laurels, it's like, what do you talk to them about? Like, great, I'm glad you had that successful, I don't know, presentation book company. But I wonder also, right, if you are an artist, and you're someone who maybe makes something every 10 years, then it must be like that, right? Like, how do you, you still want to be respected

and you want people to look at you in a certain way, but maybe you don't have anything that you want to share that you're talking about right now. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I have been in those moments, but I think it's also okay not to, you know, I just say, Hey, I'm more interested in hearing about your story. So this is the great thing about being a storyteller, right? You can just always make it about the other person and get their story out of them. And it is interesting,

it is always interesting. It's something Nancy talks about on the first episode this season, but she does this interesting thing when she's traveling where she will make up a new identity every time, right? And she can speak with the accents of a couple of different states and she's fluent in different languages and she knows enough about different schools and whatnot, so she'll make up a new identity every single time. And it's interesting because I was asking her,

what happens if you get caught, right? Like, what if someone asks you a question you don't know the answer? She's like, it's fine. You just ask them about themselves. Everyone loves to talk about them. Oh, it's never an issue. B-Music is by Akshay Ramuhali of BTRPT Music. Editing is by Beatnik.