Hi, I'm Kahran. Hi, I'm Divya. Thinking. Thinking. And this is...
Thinking. On Thinking. Today we talked with Mansi Karé and it was an amazing conversation. We started off by talking about some of her habits while traveling and explored some of the interesting ideas that she brings to thinking about people and understanding people
and then transitioned into talking about patriotism and how the idea of patriotism has changed and what it means to be a patriot today. It was an amazing conversation. We hope you enjoy. Anyway, so you are going to be our first guest.
Hi, I'm so excited. I love this podcast. And I listen to... What's your favorite episodes? Actually, this one where we were discussing the nature of structure of thought.
Oh, that was very recent. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I think that was very interesting and insightful. I think in that podcast, we were thinking a lot about how what you think of as being
malleable and what you think of as being fixed really changes. Exactly. Yeah. Also, I love podcasts. I think they're so nice.
There's a lot of friendliness that comes through a podcast. It was like you made a new friend because they're talking to you and it feels like you're a part of the conversation. Although you're in the listening part of the conversation. It's a very comforting feeling like you're stuck in traffic.
See, music is a very impersonal experience that way because music is playing and you're just maybe driving or whatever. But podcasts make you feel like you're a part of a discussion because you're having thoughts in your head, parallely, part of which you're agreeing and some parts where you're going, oh, that's an interesting way to look at it.
Interesting. Thank you, feel. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I wonder also if it's the type of podcast because we have very much like a slice of lifestyle podcast.
Are the other ones you listen to kind of like that? Oh, yeah. So this one, it's a very specific philosophy podcast called Philosophize This. Oh, did he loves that podcast? Oh, it's just beautiful because first of all, everybody loves the idea that philosophy is
being made understandable and relatable like Sophie's World, the book. It's another really good book. Sophie's World is about an oldish guy trying to make philosophy understandable and interesting to a 14-year-old girl. Oh, wow.
Yes, so that's a journey on its own. And I didn't have any such man who's trying to introduce me to the wonders of philosophy at 14. And actually, my parents are very interested in philosophy, but they've already been interested in philosophy.
So I didn't get the time to really, I didn't get an induction into it. The discussions were already at a very much advanced level. But Philosophize This is a podcast that will make very complex, even Emmanuel Kant's concepts very understandable. And he'll give you why is, why are these people talking like this?
Why is Plato talking about a perfect world? Why is Aristotle bothering to question things? Why is Socrates bothering to question things? It's just mind blowing here. So I know from what Divya has told me that she feels like early understanding philosophy
has changed the way she thinks and works, just how she lives her life. Do you feel like this has happened for you? Yes, I think basically, you're trying to find meaning to things, meaning to the routine. And if there's just this background thought from maybe a philosopher, maybe a book, it just helps you get to the day in such a different light.
It's just a different lens that you have acquired. The same thing. See, your life is not going to change with philosophy. It's not like you're going to become richer or poorer, right? That way tangibly, it perhaps will not have any impact.
But it's just a very beautiful, very different lens through which you get to see things. Interesting. So we feel like it gives you more insight into what's already happening in your life. People make it look like I'm becoming a deeper person. I'm not becoming a deeper person.
I'm not becoming any less reactive. I have pretty much the same flaws. I'm not becoming more wise. Actually, I should qualify that maybe not to another person. But to yourself, you feel.
To myself, yeah. Well, then that's what matters, right? You're right. Okay. In that sense.
So wait, so maybe I asked the question differently. So you feel like it's giving you more ability to understand your circumstances? Or am I again putting words in your mouth? Understand circumstances or try to see what are the factors that you can control, can't control, become more objective, I guess.
Especially because maybe I'm a bit inclined towards toicism. Although anybody who knows me knows that I'm pretty much opposite of his story. I have a lot of reactions. I feel a lot of emotions. But the lure of being in a position where you can be that objective about the happenings
in your life, I think that's a wonderful feeling. Like stoicism has ideas of detachment, right? Yes. Yes. Non-reaction, detachment.
I see. But I was going to say it's not so much the detachment as much as the non-reaction that kind of. That appeals to me. Yes.
Interesting. You have been able to define it better now that you understand philosophy better or? Actually, just the awareness that now maybe I'm getting to work up, I'm getting too much reactions internally. Just that awareness in itself is a big achievement for someone like me.
Because so far it was very instinctive, very much like a child. A child just cries when it's hungry. A child is just laughing when a balloon is given to him, right? So it was very instinctive. There's absolutely no thought or control.
But having this third person look over you, watch over your reaction within your own head before you react. Now again, the reaction might come, but you're at least aware that the reaction is going to come. And I must also give a lot of credit here to my husband because he's one of the most
non-reactive inert persons I know. I love inert. That's funny. So we commonly have this thing that we tell each other. So a periodic table has this group of helium, neon, argon, which is the noble gases.
And just next to it is a fluorine, chlorine, bromine, iodine, acetylene, which are all which are some of the most reactive components. So it's like you guys are that. Yeah, we are a bit of. Oh, I love that.
That's really cute. So that's interesting you say that though, because I feel like one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today is I've always been amazed by the fact that you'll like create these personas when you're traveling. And I feel like you must take so much presence of mind.
So like you're not being reactive in those moments. Maybe you should explain also a little bit of what you do. Oh, that's an interesting way to raise it actually, the presence of mind part especially. So just to give a background to what Kahran is saying, what I typically do is if I'm traveling and I meet someone and we're having a conversation, be it in a train or somewhere I just bump
into someone, what I do is so I assume a completely different identity and different name, a different profession, different hobbies, interests, everything, even a different native. And because I know at least three Indian languages, it's easy for me to even have different states of origin. And accents also.
Yeah, I can do accents very easily. Anybody who knows the three languages will know the accents. So one, primarily actually I should just give you this background. Primarily it comes from a very strong security instinct. I don't want to be giving out real name, treating every new person I meet as a potential
stalker. Unfortunately, that's how a lot of women have to see the world. Unfortunately, that is how women have to choose to be to ensure that they're safe on their travels, which is I'm sure not an experienced lot of men have. So primarily it comes out of this instinct to be safe.
Also interestingly, there is also a large element of seeing what kind of reactions I get when I give different names. Now you will be surprised, okay? There was this time that I was traveling to Jaipur and I took an auto. It just so happened that I was having a veil around my head.
It was because my hair were flying in the auto, so I just wanted to cover it. But he assumed that I belonged to his religion, which is fine. And he asked me why I was traveling during Eid. And it just occurred to me that, oh, this is the identity now I have to assume. So I played along.
I said, yes, yes. I said, yes, actually, although it's Eid, I'm just going to my uncle's place to celebrate Eid with their family. So he said, oh, nice, nice. And then he said, what caste are you?
And one of our very close friends, he had explained to us the different, I don't know if caste is the right word, but different sects, maybe. So Sayyad, I believe is a sect. So I said, I was Sayyad. And it was so nice that the auto driver started explaining to me all the different customs
that Kureshis have. Because he thought they were different from those of Sayyad's. And I was marvel. It was such a nice experience to know about all the different customs that Kureshis have. Interesting.
In their celebration. Because he would also feel maybe more comfortable telling you because he feels that you have a shared context. Yeah, it was wonderful. Interesting.
So that was that. Then there are times when I'm a teacher and I think someone in Sri Lanka also was wondering how come teachers in India have the money to travel overseas. I found that a bit offensive. I said, you don't know who makes how much in India.
He was someone from Canada. But anyway, it makes two paves for you. What's so interesting to me is because I have other female friends who I think also make identities. But it's also interesting to me that you make a new one.
I have a very good friend who's always Priya whenever she needs to give another name. But it's not the same one. It's always different. But you do stop and think about it or you don't feel worried about like I would be so concerned about getting caught in a hole if I hadn't thought through the identity.
Does that ever happen to you that you get yourself in a pot hole almost nowhere? No. So I'll tell you the funniest thing that's happened in this process. I've not gotten caught because these are conversations I'm having with strangers. How much you really ask a stranger really?
Exactly. And they also don't want to come across as stalkers. At least not very upset. So but then it gets a bit tricky if they ask you too many professional details. Once when I was passing off as a baker, I had to divert the conversation.
But the funniest part of assuming a new identity is that you can always divert an uncomfortable question by asking a question to them because people always like to talk about themselves. This is a known fact. So like I'm ramming on right now. Interesting.
Wait, so he would ask you something about baking and you would just be like some small answer. But how about you? Yeah. So that's but coming to the loophole part, I have to tell you this one very funny story.
I was traveling in a train to Nagpur and I was just in college. Maybe I was 18 or 19. And there was this really cute guy from IIT, Kharagpur was sitting opposite in the train and we started talking. So this guy, we had a startup idea.
So we were discussing the startup ideas and he I assumed the role of a lawyer for that conversation, but from a different college and everything. So he asked me a lot of questions because he wanted to build sort of a database. He wanted to explore that also as an idea for a startup where maybe he could potentially build a legal cases database, which can help us with finding the precedents before we go
to argue in a court, etc. Because today that's a real pain. You just have to like Google or something. No, we have a lot of really advanced databases. Fortunately, and world over, we have very different databases.
So that's it. There's work happening in this, of course, lot to be done. But he was just discussing these ideas and he asked me my name and I said I was richer or something. I'm not too sure.
And one thing that I didn't account for in that journey, which was a 24 hour journey is back then Indian Railways would put out this list of passengers traveling on the train outside the coach. And but compartment and seat and everything. Yes.
It would have age, name, seat number and gender. Wow. That's quite a lot. That's a lot of innovation. And he got down at Hyderabad.
So this was a bag note on a journey. He got down at Hyderabad for some drinks and then he came in and then he was so upfront about it. He said, you're not richer. You're manzy.
And my face went red. I said, you're right. So he said, why did you lie to me? He was by then I think over the course of our conversation and the kind of things that we were talking about.
I thought it was safe to tell him that I just assume random identities because I never want to give out a name. And he was completely sympathetic with it. Yeah. He was completely on board and he said, no, that's fine.
I understand. Well, also because you didn't assume something like you are a lawyer. But that has been the only time that someone has actually caught me out of it. I'm even confronted maybe 10 times or 100 times or I'm guessing 20, 25 times. Wow.
Do you remember the identities or now afterwards they kind of slip away? No, yeah, they slip away. Maybe I've also repeated a few. So it's not like there's a, I don't know, Sneha in your head and Sneha is a 20 year old lawyer or something.
Because I am an extrovert. So I like to get to know people. I want to be able to talk to people. That's interesting. Do you feel like you're more able to ask people questions or maybe you behave differently
when you know that they don't know who you are? Yes. Oh, that's very true. That's very true. You know, my mom, she's a physiotherapist.
Yeah. And one of the insights that she gave us was that when people come for a physiotherapy session, they talk the deepest darkest secrets from their lives because they know that a couple of days later, they're not going to be meeting my mom. So a lot of inhibitions just get broken.
People talk a lot of stuff. And I'm sure even I have talked a lot of stuff to strangers because I know they'll never meet me again. Yeah, that's true. I was thinking I used to talk a lot to my physiotherapist actually.
Getting also ready to be releasing some pain and something right. So sometimes in your mind also you're like, that's really interesting. I feel like in some ways you're almost achieving what Rahul Gandhi was trying to do, right, by like meeting all these people as he like walked over India. Yes.
Right. You get to like meet all these different kinds of people. Different walks of life. You get to talk to a lot of interesting people. It's so much fun.
Yeah. Because people always talk to me a certain way because the right you look at me, I talk a certain way. Everyone knows I grew up abroad. Right. So it's very clear when we're, you know, that's really interesting.
Yeah. And people are wonderful. I really think people are wonderful. So it's just so nice to not be bound by where you're from and who you are. Have you ever thought about being a politician?
I have, but I don't think it could be amazing on it. That's cute of you to say. But no, I don't think I have that kind of tenacity. I think that requires a lot of tenacity. You know, this from someone who like climbs mountains.
There is a women in politics group that I joined, but I, you know, I don't think I took that path very seriously. It's what if you thought about is like you were, you know, you were doing it for the country. Would that change your thinking? Oh, I'd love to do it for country.
So as a lawyer, even when we are working, it gives a great sense of satisfaction to know that this work is actually beneficial for the country. Oh, wow. Yeah. You feel that way even, I mean, because some of your jobs have been for large
corporate, some have been for startups. Yeah, it's been so. But even then you can drive that sense of purpose when you're doing something good. Wow. And you do feel bad when you're doing something on the other side.
And it does hurt your conscience. Actually, my first job as tough as it was, was representing India in an arbitration. Wow. Yeah. So there we got to work on really, really amazingly detailed legal documents.
And this isn't even a direct legal case that I have handled or was handling. It was just that when I was working in a law firm, we would take our black courts and our lawyers, where this ban and our gown and our legal files, and we would run in a cab to the court for going to the court and appearing. And ever so often, I've had the most interesting conversations with the cab
drivers who want to ask legal questions, but just haven't had the chance to go and visit a lawyer. So the minute they saw a ban and a court, they would know I'm a lawyer. Yeah. And one of the most entertaining and the cutest conversation I had witnessed was this
guy asked me, madam, are you a lawyer? And I said, yes, I'm a lawyer and I knew Canada. So obviously he felt he could talk more to me. And he said, can I ask you a question? I said, yes, please go ahead.
He said, I am 25 and my girlfriend is 17. Can we get married? And can we get married? No. So I asked him what religion he belonged to because this differs a bit in India.
But I asked him what religion he belonged to. He said he was a Hindu then I said, no, you can't get married at the age of when she is 17. That will not be legal. So he said, ma'am, can you please do one thing?
Can you please tell my girlfriend that? Because then it'll come to her through a lawyer and then she doesn't have to just take my word for it. And he put his girlfriend through who thought that he was so nice that he's gone to a lawyer to take an opinion.
And she was super impressed by the guy. And I just told her that, you know, you can't get married now. 18 is actually back then 18 was the legal age. Has it changed? Yeah, it's changed to 21 now.
Wow. Yeah. And so I said, please wait it out, maybe study, do do whatever it is that you're doing and wait it out. And she was just trying to explain the circumstances at her end.
She wasn't saying her parents were trying to get her married already. And that is when I got to council, both of them saying, no, it's not legal for you to get married to each other. It's not. It's similarly not legal for her to get married to anyone else either.
So, you know, if you if you require any help, you can contact me. I have friends who can help you. So it was one of the cutest conversations I had over a 20 minute cab drive. Wow. Yeah, that was nice.
Do you feel like you're more willing to kind of extend that hand to like fellow Indians? So curiosity. Yeah, definitely. Actually, I've tried to be in the NGO sector for the longest time.
I tried a lot to get into a lot of these legal aid organizations. It didn't quite work out the way I would have wanted it to. As in like the work wasn't what you wanted it to be or like. If I have to be honest about it, the pay isn't good. Oh, yeah, of course.
In fact, it's it's a very sad thing. I that, you know, people who are doing so much good work for the society are getting paid patents and at the end of the day bills are to be paid. Yeah. Right.
There is a certain lifestyle that you would want to maintain, even if it's not a flamboyant one. Unfortunately, that's a problem, at least in India. There are not a lot of jobs that you will get in the legal aid sector, which pay even half as decently as you would expect them to.
So didn't work out that way. But yes, there are a lot of interesting opportunities that are now coming up because Azim Premji Ashoka, these universities have been doing a lot of work in this area now. Of legal aid.
Yeah, National University of Delhi has its own legal aid cell. Oh, wow. Yeah, a lot of national law universities are now coming up with their own legal aid cells, even in our college, we had a legal aid cell. So now I think things will be better in the near future.
And that's if I need legal assistance, but I can't afford it, I could go to that. Yes. Nice. So the courts in India, even today, provide legal assistance. When there are a lot of people who try to appear on their own, actually, if you go
to the High Court, you'll be surprised at the number of people who just want to appear on their own without a lawyer. Yeah. Why? Couple of reasons.
See, it depends on the kind of experiences people have with lawyers. Right. Somebody who has maybe not had a great experience with a lawyer would want to go with just themselves because they would have had the case studies and case files for a long time.
Oh, so they'll be prepared. They'll be prepared. But just without a lawyer. Yeah. That is when the court typically suggests them to go for someone in the legal aid
section of the respective court. So a lot of lawyers do provide the service, which then is through the court. That's not something that would be available to you anymore because you're not arguing in front of the court anymore. Exactly.
Now I'm an in-house lawyer. So now I can't really go and argue in the court. I see. I see. And if you want to do some legal aid, it would be through some NGO.
Yes. Or maybe when I'm done with this, you know, at a later stage in life, I can take up proper legal aid when I'm not a in-house lawyer or maybe when I'm not affiliated specifically to one company representing their interests. Well, I was just also kind of curious.
Somewhat in reference to what we were talking about earlier. Do you feel like your colleagues are as interested in helping other people as you are, like other lawyers? And do you feel like it's switched as you went from the law firm and went in-house? Or do you feel like, because I know in the US, particularly, some people are
motivated by going into law from that point of view. But a lot of people are also, because you make a lot of money in law, it's very stable. There's a lot of people who are kind of choosing between business and law. And so I don't know.
I'm just kind of curious. Do you feel like you have a similar sort of level of desire to help as those around you, or do you feel like you're kind of exceptional in the compared to those? No, no, actually, there are so many people who are doing so much work in this space. It's really very inspiring to see the kind of work that people are putting in this
space. And I would rate myself at a very, very low level comparatively, especially in the legal aid scenario. I know friends who work along with NGOs, who work along with social workers during the weekends to counsel victims, to counsel people into filing of FIRs, into
filing of police cases. You'll be surprised at how tricky even filing a case can get. Recently, there was a case we worked on. And she was a girl who had come to Bangalore for working in a company. She's from a small town in Assam.
And I'm not sure of the details, but things with a guy didn't go well and things went awry. And there was one particular case which needed police intervention. But there is so much stigma around an investigation from police to be sitting in front of the police, answering questions, then going to the court where the police
will put up their facts, the accused will also put up their facts. Then our decision will be arrived at. This process, a lot of people don't go through this process. But this is the judicial process. See, things don't get settled at a police court level.
They have to reach the logical conclusion and to just counsel people to go through this for the sake of their own case and for also setting a requisite example. There are so many people I know who are doing this wonderful job of just counseling people into this. And fortunately, I've met a lot of these people.
That's just amazing, the kind of work they're doing. And you feel like... So I feel like a lot of people are doing a lot much more work, which is very heartening to see. And from where you stand today, you have faith. Like you have faith in the system.
You feel like... Yes, I think I have faith. I feel so happy that Section 377 was decriminalized. I think for a country, for the kind of background we have, for the kind of baggages, past baggages we have, that in itself was a historic step.
Now, things take time and I think a lot of work is being done for things to speed up, to get up to speed. Of course, in the light of the recent Supreme Court judgment, there is also the question of how will they legitimize marriages or any kind of sacraments between people of various genders, in a civil union of people from different genders.
These questions are unanswered. I completely am cognizant of that. But I feel like a lot of work is being done to ensure that things come up to speed. And for a country as big as India, with so many cultural, historical baggages, it will take time.
But we are getting there. How do you feel about it, Kahran? Actually, I should ask you. Because, because, see, I will only have an outside in perspective about what it feels like to be a gay person in India.
But I think you should tell us, has things, have things changed in the last couple of years? Oh, yeah. After Section 377 was read down for sure. I feel especially in a town like Bangalore, or a city like Bangalore, there's so much more willingness to be open.
You know, people don't have the same fear of the police, I think that they once did. Because when I came to Bangalore, no one would call the police. No one in the queer community would call the police for any reason. Right? Because it was just as likely that they would arrest you. Oh, I didn't know this.
Yes, that's sort of such a thing, right? Where, like, especially when people were being stalked on Grindr or they were, right, people were using for extortion, because you couldn't call the police, right? So that has really gotten better, right? That's gotten much better.
And so I think people are in less desperate situations, right? When they can be more integrated into society, you're less likely to be in kind of a desperate situation. I don't know. I think that there's a lot of things that are troubling people in India at different levels,
right? And so I think, you know, as a gay couple, like being precluded from certain options, I think makes it more difficult to think about, like, planning your future here, right? And I think particularly, like, because you can't even adopt, right? Like, because basically single men can't adopt and then there's no way for you to have
a union that will be recognized by the government in India. And surrogacy is very found upon, right? Like if it's legal at all. It's a great idea. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's kind of a difficult situation that way.
I don't know. I mean, I think you're right, though, the trajectory is good, right? The long term trajectory seems to be good. I'm curious, also, I was reading some commentary that was saying that the Chief Justice of India kind of tends to go too far in his language. And in some ways this was kind of a re-buck to him.
Do you feel like this is, there's some merit to that? In more sense. I think they were saying that in the human, like, yeah, that in the right to privacy judgment, that he kind of had, didn't need to evoke the kind of language that he did. And that he kind of signaled that, that the court may go in a different direction
for the most recent judgment in his, his judgment or previous judgments. And that may have kind of been part of why he had trouble kind of bringing his other colleagues on this. I don't know. I mean, this is very speculatory. So I don't know. I was just kind of curious about your opinion.
But I have not gone through the judgment. I should be very honest up front. But basically what they have done is that, see, this happens for a lot of other cases also, like even in the tax cases, right? There are a ton of judgments where they just say, this is not the judicial prerogative at all.
This is for a policy that the state has to decide. But the thing in India is there are so many complexities around different religions, different religious laws, and then the different adoption laws, property laws, maintenance laws that it would have been extremely difficult for the court to actually adjudicate upon these things and give a direction on all of these points.
So they have given the direction for the state to decide on it. Definitely they have given that direction. And it will be for the state to decide how they want to go about it. But it's right now with the different laws that exist for everything. It's quite tough.
You have to decide on property ownership, on how the succession works, on how adoption works, maintenance works across religions. Today in India, all of that is based on religious law. Yes. Like depending on what religion.
Yes. Yes. But then the contention I was reading, right, that the special marriage act, special marriage act, of course, works in that sense. So I think again, it'll be for the court to, for the state to sit and pour over the details.
I see. I see. Interesting. Do you feel like the courts are failing or the legal system is failing the more everyday men? Because I've heard these stories of like, you know, Kate's languishing for decades.
So I was kind of curious when you think about the people who are coming to legal aid and such, do you feel like the system is working well there? Or I mean, what are your thoughts on that? It's as wide a question as is the world good or bad. Same way.
So as I was earlier mentioning about this philosophy, this podcast. Yes. Yes. It's he starts off with this question saying it's impossible to say whether the world is inherently good or inherently bad. Because the same world, which is now seeing so many amazing things, we are having lesser wars than before.
Just a couple of centuries ago also, there were many more wars. Absolutely. Than small ones. And small ones are also happening everywhere. So much more violence.
Today that is less. But then there are other issues that have cropped up this. There is still a lot of racial inequality that continues, caste inequality that continues. There are so many other problems that have now cropped up because of the Internet. There is cyber bullying and, you know, really all the issues related to loneliness that is faced on the cyber world.
So ultimately, net net. Can you say the world is a better place than before or a worse place than before? It's a endless debate. So that way, again, with the courts, it's very difficult to say whether the courts are failing everyone at large or helping everyone at large. It's a very, very tough question.
But you're right. Legal aid is available. Yes. But the issues that are faced at the grassroots level are just humongous. And there is not enough that can be even done that the scale of problem is so large.
I mean, the state should be able to has resources that are agreed. But as I mentioned, there is a there is a tech talk actually on this as to why do NGOs pay so badly? There is a tech talk on this. OK. So this is a person who believes that people who are doing larger social good should be paid equivalent at par to people who are helping large corporates.
Yeah. Right. But that is not how things are everywhere in the world. In the world, people have to necessarily adopt either a lifestyle which will deprive them of some luxuries and maybe some monetary stability. Yeah.
By when they choose to do social work or they rely on their past. Maybe it's their parent and whatever. But whatever it is that they have at their disposal. But for someone who does not have that at their end, it's very difficult to choose that path. Yeah.
And there are a lot of brave people who do choose that path. We have a lot of those friends who are doing amazing work in this area. But then again, maybe for some others, bills are to be paid who can't choose that path. There are loans, there are bills. So but there is a lot being done and there is a lot more that is required to be done is pretty much how I would put it.
Interesting. Yeah. I'm kind of curious. Switching gears a little bit. Just tell me how you think about patriotism.
Oh, that's a beautiful question. So I think patriotism, maybe it's loving your country and being aware of its flaws and wanting to do something and hoping to do something to alleviate its flaws or help better the country. Interesting. So you feel like to be truly patriotic, we need to be working on helping it. Definitely.
Like you would frown upon an armchair critic, I would definitely frown upon an armchair patriot. If you're patriotic, it has to reflect. I think it has to reflect in your work. It has to reflect in how you're choosing to recognize problems and try to do something about it rather than defend all the problems and say that so what this problem exists in other countries as well. I think that's not the right way of looking at it.
Again, this is extremely subjective. I don't want to be offending anyone on this, but basically the way I look at it is if you're a patriot and if you really love your country, then as much as you adore and admire the beauty of your country and in our case, especially the rich cultural heritage that we are gifted with, it's brilliant. We are gifted with a treasured role, really, of just go through Mahabharata and you feel the sense of marvel. You travel across the country and you feel so dressed to be in this country, but at the same time, the exact same country has so many innumerable problems. Being vigilant and aware of these problems and wanting to do something about it, I think is a very, very important part of patriotism.
And being aware and wanting to do something about it will then also help you not remain a jingoistic patriot. Okay, same. So, jingoism is basically where you're trying to put down other countries and trying to establish your country as a superior. That to me is maybe not patriotism. Why do you want to do that?
All the kids are constantly told to not compare themselves with someone else. Then why are countries being compared that way, right? Every country has its own sets of problems, has its own beauty associated with it, has its own whatever culture. Okay, I'll push back a little bit. So, for example, and I'm going to caveat this extremely, I know Singapore is a city-state and it's very small and it's very hard to compare anything Singapore does to other countries in the world.
I know this. But I will do it anyway. But I will do it anyway. So, one of the things I've always really liked in Singapore is the way that they do their payment for their government ministers, right? So what they do is they look at the three similar private sector people, right?
So the prime minister has paid the average of like the three CEOs in the private sector and similarly with other ministers. I just think it's such a clever way of making it so that you could increase the talent that would be thinking that this is an acceptable lifestyle. It's a much what you were saying about nonprofits and NGOs. Yes, yes. That's a great idea.
So I feel like from that point of view, you can look at other countries and be like, oh, you know, they've done something. They figured something out. We could try and do something like that. Of course. So when I said you don't have to put down other countries, what I meant was take the good from other countries, but you don't have to establish or try to...
I don't know, in Hindi there is this Zabbardasti word, right? Zabbardasti, you don't want to put yourself on a higher pedestal. I see. That's just sanctimonious, right? Because you are also having your own problems.
The other countries also have their own problems. You take whatever good there is to take from the other country and try to better your system or work towards bettering your system rather than to just browning upon whatever good is there in that country also. Like for example, Singapore itself, they saw the wonders that UPI has done in India. A lot of other countries are now trying to see how that can be translated in their domains and how it can be made workable in their countries. Yeah.
So similarly, there are so many innumerable amazing things from other countries that can be adopted in a manner friendly to Indian conditions and Indian context and made it relevant in India. Patriotism to me is to not wanting to look down upon other countries, but look at what you can do to make your country better. Interesting. It's an interesting distinction you're making because it's looking at what other countries are doing and saying, okay, how can this improve me? Versus kind of saying, looking at it and saying, well, I can ignore what they do because of this reason or I can discount their success because they haven't done this other thing.
Exactly. That's interesting. Exactly. So who do you feel like is a patriot? Do you feel like there are people around you who are or do you have idols who are patriots?
Like how do you think about that side of it? Oh, that's a beautiful question. I think a lot of lawyers are doing an amazing work. I think there's a very famous lawyer in India called Arvind Dattar. He's a senior advocate.
I think the kind of work he has done for the jurisprudence of the evolution of jurisprudence in our country. And the kind of work he was there in even the section 377 judgment. I see. He argued that case. He's also argued that case.
He was one of the lawyers. The earlier law firm that I'd worked in, the title partners of that company, of that firm, were monumental in evolving the way tax laws are interpreted in India for a very, very long time because of the kind of work they have done in this field. Interesting.
So it's just amazing the kind of work people are doing. And I think as long as they're working for the betterment of a system in India for evolution of something in India, I think it's just mind blowing. It's amazing. There are also patriots in their own ways.
And even all the startups that we have in Bangalore, right? In Bangalore, for everything now there is an app. Basically, what I'm saying is if anybody is trying to improve something in India, they're still doing something patriotic, right? I don't know.
I mean, it's interesting to hear your definition because some people would say that the patriots are the ones that are defending the soul of the country and making sure that we are not morally getting adrift. And it's interesting that you didn't really, as your definition, that's not really playing a role. That's not playing a role yet. Yeah, very system- interestingly it sounded like, because you don't even kind of,
the individual patriot or the individual action is not as important to you as people who are trying to work on a system level to try and affect change. It sounds like very interesting. Effect change even at a very small level, right? For example, there is someone in our building who just got together all the household helps and made a session on what are their rights?
On what are the things that they can demand for? What are the things that they should be aware of? How can they go to a police station? How can they file a complaint if they have to? They're helping people understand this.
That is itself a greatly patriotic act. Don't you think? It's really interesting to me. I've never really thought about patriotism in the way you do. I would say obviously it's a kindness, right?
And I think it's delivering tremendous value for those people. As long as it's helping people in the country, I'd like to understand more from you as to how you would look at patriotism, actually. I don't know. I guess for me, patriotism really got shaped by September 11th, right? So even when I think about patriots and patriotism, I think of George W. Bush, right?
And I think about that war and it's very tied up in my head. And it's not something that makes me feel very comfortable, frankly. Like I think something I really loved about meeting you and knowing you is I feel like you've always to me embodied a different kind of patriotism. That's why I was really excited about asking you about it today on the podcast.
And I've just been cognizant. Like, I didn't know as much as I've learned from you today, but I knew that you had a different view than what I did, right? I think in America, there's this idea of like there's a persona of a patriot a little bit. And it is the American West, right?
It is this guy who still is like, you know, like if you've seen Yellowstone or something like his last show, his horse is like the true American patriot is like drinking but light. And I know this has shifted, right? And amazingly, but light is no longer the best selling beer in America, right? It's a Mexican beer. Now is the best selling beer in America.
I think in some ways that is kind of telling of there's a shift in, you know, the heart and soul of what does it mean to be the American and be a patriot about being American? I remember that there was a time very difficult to have a conversation without being immediately labeled. Whenever somebody is trying to label someone else,
the one thing to quickly ask them is, are you trying to make an echo chamber or are you trying to have a conversation? Because the minute you want to make an echo chamber, you're not even listening to the other person's views. Either people start off with a extreme notion or extreme skepticism about India as at large.
Or if I'm coming from a place where I'm talking something good about the country, then I'm viewed in a certain political color, neither of which is necessary. There is no political color. It's again, there can be facts, there can be statistics, there can be a historical background discussion and all of these things.
I feel like it's nice to check with yourself as to, are you trying to have a conversation because you want to know the other point of view or are you just making an echo chamber? I took a policy course, actually, it's one of the best experiences I had in 2020. Where was it?
It was in Bangalore and this is a policy school run called Young Leaders for Active Citizenship. It's a tight cohort of maybe 50 people who are selected, I think, through a round of written tests, at least from what I remember. And people from various backgrounds come together and they actually work on a policy document in the course. So in the course, while you're also working on a policy document,
they used to also have active lectures on what is policy making, how is policy making in India, what are the kind of things that people are supposed to be vigilant of while making policies? I see. Every policy has two sides of the same coin.
I should tell you a very funny anecdote. There was this absolute black and white policy. To us, it looks like a black and white policy. How can there be another side to this coin kind of a policy? Okay, what's the...
In the lecture, the lecturer told us this, she said that she worked in Bihar. And the case in point was that they wanted to implement removal of open defecation. Right? Now, everybody will think this is a very black and white policy. Of course, open defecation is bad.
Of course, it has to be eliminated. Of course, toilets have to be built. But she realized that she was facing a lot of hostility from the women in that village. And when she tried to understand why she's facing hostility, she found out that actually the women in that village were so tied up during the day with their own jobs,
with their own work, you know, feeding the kids, taking care of the families. And maybe even whatever their jobs basically, that going together in the fields in the morning with their girlfriends for relieving themselves was a social time. And cutting off that was what they really did not like. So even having to handle this, you know, trying to see what...
How can you address this as a concern? The TV series, Panchayat, is an excellent, excellent example of this. It's a completely grass root level based Indian TV series made by the viral fever. And they have shown this in such a beautiful light, that whenever you're implementing a policy, you would think that,
okay, this policy is going to benefit everyone. But that's never the case. There will always be a counter side that you have to account for and have answers to, right? So it was in that policy course that we really understood that the value of ensuring that you don't become a trap of an eco-chamber
and you try to understand what are the views that you're receiving from the other end so as to be able to counter it in a more productive manner, counter it or slash better your argument in a more productive manner. So I think that's a very important part of the whole patriotic debate, right? You don't want to label people and...
So I've always thought about it as trying to understand what people's motivations are. Right? And if you kind of are willing to take as an axiom or as a given that the person is not behaving without any motivation, right? Maybe if they feel irrational to you, but if they have some motivation that to them feels like a rational motivation,
that if you can try and figure out how can you understand what their motivations are, that can help you figure out even if what they're saying is maybe something that you react very strongly to, there might be a different way to solve what they're trying to do if you understand. Precisely, understanding where they are coming from so that your response is more catered to what it is that... where it is that they are coming from.
Interesting. So you feel like these kinds of organizations are bringing together people across the political spectrum. Yes, I think a lot of think tanks in India are doing that and they're able to account for multiple views and try to see how a policy can possibly work around. Of course, it won't answer everything.
That's a given, right? That's a given. But at least see what can be done about it. Or just give reasons to why it can't be solved for at the end of the day, getting it accounted for. Does it give you hope? Definitely a lot.
A lot. And you feel like it's... I am a hopeless, optimist, but I feel like when there is so much work happening, it should be good. So many people working so hard. It's really mind-blowing when you meet them working at the grassroots level.
I think this is an amazing place. This has been an amazing conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much. No, thank you.
Thank you for spending the time and really being our first real guest. It's been really excellent. I really appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you so much.
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