Hi, I'm Kahran. Hi, I'm Divya. Thinking. Thinking. And this is...
Thinking. On Thinking. Welcome to the 32nd episode of Thinking On Thinking. Today we talk to the amazingly creative and multi-dimensional computational mama. We talk about her work, encoding how she made the shift from design to development,
all the things that she has learned, how she got into teaching, and a bunch of other interesting things, including how cool her mother is. We hope you enjoy this episode. Why do you like being called computational mama? Like, you're not a gamer.
You're not a hacker. I don't know, it's just... But like, you know, you've chosen like a moniker for yourself. It just stuck. Like, when I started it was like a secret-ish Instagram
because I didn't want to put this stuff in my main Instagram. Which incidentally now I don't even... Like, I don't even have a login. I don't even remember the password. So what happened was that I was like, okay, let's do a funny name.
And I just... And it stuck. And then eventually, what was interesting and has even something I spoke about to another friend in the morning is that... So I slogged my butt off for like so many years in the museum and that like culture sector management kind of roles and design roles.
And I have like really no recognition for it except for my name might be on one wall somewhere in that museum. But it just gave me a sense that if like I'm getting recognition with this name and it's not like my personality is changing with the name, I'm still just me. But I just felt I should embrace it as much as I want to. And it allows...
Like I can make more space for myself, the moniker, which in itself is so big. Then with my name, I feel like that's where it's at basically. That's so interesting. Have you heard of this thing called secret identity effect or superhero identity effect, whatever it's called? No, it sounds like me.
Sounds like you're applying it to me. No, like I was recently listening to this person was talking about how this person was a YouTuber and they were talking about how they find it really challenging to be social. But they like made this personality and identity for themselves. And like that is the person that you see on screen and like that person is outgoing and rocketed
and like keeps like, you know, people engaged in his life of the party. But the real quote unquote version of them is totally not in their mind. They are two different people. You feel like you are two different people? No, no, no, it's not like Beyonce and Sasha Fierce.
It's very... It's still me, but I feel like maybe I have more... I just give myself a bit more space with this moniker, like to be myself, to sort of say what I want to and say, like if I'm saying something meaningful, it's somehow... I just find that the impact is also a bit more when it's coming from this, I don't know.
It's just maybe a mental thing. Okay, so for some context, computational mama started her life as a designer and she used to do a lot of exhibition design work and then she shifted into being computational and mama almost together. So my dad was a tinkerer with computers and like even in those days when you know, history you have to hook them up to TVs and stuff like,
in fact, I have never seen that one, but that's what they would tell me. And then my mother, because she was a designer, she needed a computer pretty early on and she had all these like whatever, all the software that we use now in their original pre-AdoB formats. So I mean, it was like when she was not using them, we were just tinkering on it all the time, me and him. So I was always very interested in electronics and particularly in computers
and I think I really didn't understand what was the in unless you like became, went into a BTEC degree, which I didn't want to do, like vehemently didn't want to do. So anyway, so then it kind of when I moved into college, of course there was no like no coding, nothing of that sort. But I think creative coding stuff was already kind of gaining some momentum, maybe say like 2008-ish when I started looking maybe a little bit before,
but that's when I discovered it and I was like, oh, hey, this seems to be an interesting space to kind of navigate and look at. But I just couldn't like the examples were too focused on mathematics, they were too stem focused. So it just like it would just slip away from us even if we tried. And then coding train is this NYU professor who has a YouTube channel and he started doing lots of these streams, which are also like very impromptu and very like full of energy and sort of not very stifling in that way.
And then I think I was like, okay, this is interesting, I can pick this up. And literally I was just like, I didn't know what to do because I was supposed to be on bed rest. And like when I say I was a designer or an exhibition, it literally meant we were on site for most of the time. So one couldn't do the running around anymore, which had become so sort of like the key, clear focus, especially at that time, Nanditi and I met on that project and I was like, what do I do?
So I started trying this stuff and then it was looking interesting. Because I had already been tinkering a bit with like Raspberry Pi and SSH and like trying to maybe figure out servers and I burnt a computer. Because somebody told me, hey, why don't you just dual boot it and then it just like it went up in flames, like not flames, but you are smoked. And then so I was like, okay, but this is interesting. Like this, this like gives you a space to understand machinery as you know, as burning up your computer is interesting.
I mean, it's like, give technology this kind of space of perfection. And then when you see something like that happen and then you open up the computer and you see, oh, just like this one thing I did, literally did this. And I was really lucky at that time. I befriended a technologist who was really sort of open to sharing his whatever his knowledge was. And he continues to be very sort of very much like the person I go to if I'm really stuck.
So that was useful. So that's how this then the name stuck. And then I just had like, you know, maybe like 20, 30 of us were following each other who were all doing this kind of just before like the pandemic maybe a year before. And then this one person Abhinay Koparzi who's like this Al Goreve kind of he's the founder of Al Goreve India and he's he's also like creative gone into tech kind of like somewhere in the middle, little bit like how we are. And he just like totally convinced me.
He's like, now you can totally do this. You can come and perform and do the code on you know, on the project. And I'm like, how can I do this? Like, you know, you're asking someone who has no background. He's like, that's the whole idea that you can come, fail, try, do whatever.
So that really gave me a space to see that, okay, this can merge into my existing practices in some ways. But then at some point it just took over like that merge became something else. And it was really nice because museums are like one design can take you maybe many years to even see in fruition, right? Because you're coordinating so many things as money and this that. And then here is this code I wrote and I hit play and it's like doing something interesting and then I hit play again and the same code is doing something different.
Which that that whole procedural aspect and that random aspect was very interesting and you know, like made my day a bit more achievable when like, you know, museums are mounting on top of diapers on top of housework on top of so many other things. Probably, you know, so I think it was nice to just kind of be in that space and like share these little experiments and like now it's so much more perfect. So many people are doing everything looks very similar. Maybe at that time it was still a bit fresh for Instagram. So I kept getting like making friendships and kind of like looking at what others are doing.
And now I feel like I know, I mean, I'm not a hacker or like I'm not like one of the many people from the art Jenny I community were like really into it. But definitely like if they give me a bunch of their GitHub links to read through, I can at least understand what's happening and and have an opinion about it. Maybe not a technical opinion, at least a communication level up in like, hey, you know, you want people to get this, you need to figure this out kind of thing. So that's been very interesting and I feel like I've almost learned a new language. That's nice because like I already know Hindi, English, some Tamil, some Kannada JavaScript, one of them like that kind of a thing.
So yeah, so and I think that it helped me really to move out of Adobe, which for me was a very interesting space to kind of look at like, how can one prototype how can one talk about your design work without using these tools. And again, it's like my dad he was really into open source stuff and because he was in the education sector he like changed all the computers in the school to Linux and he would keep pushing me oh try this. Try that and I would be like this is not you know, I don't know if you open these open source softwares that like gimp and all. I have. Oh my God, it's like how can somebody do their professional work on it's impossible. Yeah, but now because like say maybe I'm at a space where it's more our direction and less like doing it yourself.
It's really simple to just like prototype on P5JS and then tell the development person that hey, we want something like this. Can you do this? So that's been very exciting. So it's like it's still a design tool for me really. It's very interesting that you say that like it is a design tool because so our journeys have almost like mirrored each other like you were a design person who went into technology and I was quote unquote conventionally trained to be in the stem industries and then I moved into design. I mean I left the stem industries very early on.
Like it's very interesting how like regardless of what you end up doing where you come from and what you learn also like shapes a lot about how you look at the world. And like how you said like it is a design tool. It's almost like you know in your brain there is this base level of design learning that is just ever present and you're like OK now I can just do this faster or better or differently or different. Or like with what it seems like is like slightly lower stakes like it's just you can do iterations easily. You can show it to people more easily.
What part of your thinking as like an exhibition designer do you think come into picture and what part of like you know you're thinking generally come into picture especially. I don't know when you talk to like people who have more conventional coding experience and who just you know like sort of who studied CS and then the stayed in the domain and like you know maybe. Instead of learning a couple of languages there's just like you know just deep into that one specific thing or something like that. How do I feel different from them is what you're asking. Yeah.
How do you feel differently. How do you think differently. Like how do you look at them and I like why does this not seem like a design variable in this situation to you. So because we were running this creative studio like me and Nanditi the technologists who've been working with us in the past have been people who are like looking for some kind of a design. Like looking for some kind of like cultural emancipation.
Shall I say or like looking for I mean I don't want it to be the meaning but yes you know they are also looking for projects that are more meaningful. And I think it's an easy thing to enter arts kind of a space to get a bit of that. And of course one or two of them were also like practicing semi as designers. So what was interesting was to kind of like unfold that idea with them that whatever we are producing at what intersection like is it art design and technique. What are those meeting points and what point we have to like bow down to the technology and at what point we will bow down to the design.
And I think that collaborative space was interesting because it wasn't like we were eventually going for that vision which was a vision of an artist or an arts organization. So then eventually you obviously make it more design focused. But now that I'm working with GUI and I'm meeting more technologists who are doing like more hardcore technology work. I think it's very interesting because one is like I've never like worked in a product company I've always worked on projects. So one has like this shift of vision which you can carry very quickly and with a lot of like rigor but you're still moving from one vision to the other.
And with product you feel like you have to be very focused. So you have to take forward that one thing really slowly and iteratively and like keep going with it. So I feel that's very nice and it's very different for me. Right now I am allowing them to do what they're doing and just seeing where I fit into all of it. So I really don't maybe I don't have a like a very strong opinion about how they are practicing.
Definitely have many strong things of what they think of the rest of the world for sure. But at least in perspective of what they're doing like I'm just like interested to see how they achieve it like you know and I feel like most of the conversation I see there's a balance of talking about tech and business. But yes I feel like a very limited conversation on there and about the user about design about like the end person in the end who's who's working with it. So like I don't know what are those layers between them and that end user which I think for designers it's always like that's the practice you start with the user and here it's so that is of course something that it's very new for me but I'm allowing myself to just like absorb it in the moment and just see where it goes like. I think many of these especially this rag stuff that's been happening like end user still like currently you're just like the developers thinking that his or her end user there end user is just another developer you know.
Yeah. So but like now where we are in at Go he is we are really looking at the end user so so I'm just figuring like for me it's very new working in like product in this way so I'm just like letting it go as it is. It's also interesting so like when you worked in museums would you say that like there were a lot of conversations around like cultural impact of whatever you are creating because I would imagine that like a lot of times museums are being built precisely for the cultural impact. Oh yes. Right.
Yeah. But when you're building in tech while you're going to create massive scale and cultural impact I don't think that a lot of conversations happen around the cultural impact of things. Yeah. How do you feel about that do you have qualms about it. My main thing is like this data bias stuff which has been like really been a burning question for me but obviously I have very like limited resources as an individual to like capture that and so basically the museums that I work for across like government funded and privately funded and from 100,000 square feet size exhibition space to I've done even 1200 square feet.
So just like a small house. Wow. So you know it's like big to small have done many types and I think all of them start with this basic thing where they say that everybody should have access to it. You know that everyone should have access to the story that we are telling so and usually in my case at least I have only worked on like more narrative driven museums than just like museums with objects inside. So think I Indian music experience versus like a history museum or something like that.
Like maybe just a museum with objects and just like a government simple archaeological museum. So I've done more of the narrative ones. So then it's really about telling stories it's telling stories in a way that's accessible. So there's a huge trickle down like so imagine like these experts who have worked for years and they are PhD subjects and they want to tell everything about whatever they know. But then you know there's one person who wants to come and just do it for like five minutes or like maybe has 40 minutes to spend before they go to their next commitment.
So there was one designer who really like effected the way I'm looking at it and I think we have passed that practice on to even our digital projects and in fact now in GUI also I've been talking about this is that there are two main kinds of visitors you will get a racer and a greaser. So racer will just like race through your museum and they want to get everything in like that 40 minutes time that they have before they go away. And then there's a greaser who's like a you know like a grazing in the field. So they'll go through every single piece they like really be there for two three hours and absorb everything you know they'll come out. They both will come out enriched.
It's not that I'm saying that the racers don't value the experience but they look at it in a different way. It's like how you know some people surf the web really fast and some kind of really go through each page. So that allowed us to really like look at layering of information and I think with the web it's so much more important. Yeah so basically this impact of course is very large and I think particularly with Indian museums you have this thing. You know everybody around has to have so then there are those layers.
You know the people who are like right at your community level to the foreign tourists who's coming into the museum and how do we kind of include all of them. Of course politically also there's a lot of accessibility around language that's very important. So at least one extra vernacular language is needed and how those translations work what level they want. We wanted to work in all of that. So that's something I've also been thinking about like when you're looking at the museum you're thinking accessibility to all which basically means a diverse set of people coming into your museum.
Diverse backgrounds. But that's something that I find that gets totally missed out when we think about scaling projects on the web. Like look at the biggest scale project right now say maybe Facebook or Instagram. Really thriving on diversity and we just totally forget about that because we are so like pigeonholed within that right. So of course they know how to like keep their silos in place but everybody's still using their projects and so that means that when you're scaling you have to look at diversity.
You can't just think keep next billion. It's like one category of demographic that's like in a stature to city of a particular age. Yeah they are across you know that it's porous like in that sense. So that's something I'm finding really missing in the language. And I feel like if that kind of becomes much more mainstream like really effectively looking at diversity it will affect all aspects like the data bias aspect as well.
Because immediately you are like looking at diversity in a particular way which means you're looking at your research in a particular way which is then kind of has this like more formidable effect on the technology. So obviously don't have the van with to think about all of this you know but keep it as a key part of their project when they are starting off like what would that mean if that went reverse. That is very interesting. I think that you have a much more hopeful view of this than I do. I think coming from an engineering college with like 90% guys and they all think the same feel the same.
Okay I'm being very like non-generous here but I think there is this temptation to almost think that like everybody has the same life experiences as I do. Absolutely. Like I've had so many conversations with guys who were in my college and you know when the Me Too movement happened and after that like I've had some conversations with guy friends who were like who is this real did this happen to you also. And they're like they're being very kind, they're being very sweet and you know it's very very nice but at the same time it's like yes. And then in reality it's like you know even there 10% of the population went through this right.
Like even like 10% is not insignificant. Yeah. Like in a college of 5000 people that's like 500 folks. 500 folks went through that that's a very large number. But there is this like I don't know homogeneity breeds like intolerance in a particular sense.
For sure. And I think that like that has become almost the backbone of tech. For sure. There's like a particular kind of person who ends up being in tech and who ends up rising through the ranks in tech. And it's very I don't know it's very hidden and it's under the layers but at the same time it's also very visible if you try to see it.
So visible like it's so I mean like just just look at the surnames you know as an Indian just look at the surnames and you immediately know what's happening. Yeah. And that's very unfortunate but it's the truth and I think that that's a problem that we if if these guys are not able to make space for us we just have to make it for ourselves. And I think you and me we are kind of doing that I can see that. Yeah.
So like slightly switching tracks. Sure. So did you used to teach people before you became a creative coder like were you interested in like teaching also like for context. She and her co-founder Nanditi have been running these like really amazing code drift workshops where they get people to do music but plus coding plus like some some cool visual stuff like she can talk more about it but that's the context. Yeah.
I never maybe I just took like me one or two design kind of modules. And I got my partner has always been in design education. So I hear about it a lot. My mother has always been in and my dad of course he was part of a school admin. So like I understand the modalities of it at different like layers and different levels.
But I don't know. I really didn't think I had anything to teach in design but here I really found a space because I was like there are these creative people who are interested in learning technology. And there's like very limited kind of formats for that to reach them. And now that they are seeing me do it they were asking me they were like hey can you teach us. So like my observation was very like it was all women were asking me you know.
Interesting. So that's how the first session started actually. So it was like Anisha Thampi this young person Maylain whose mother who are all designers in that house as well. And then of course Nanditi was like OK just join. Just join because more people and it was all women and they were all designers.
So then I was like OK that means that there is something missing in the communication out there in the world. That's not allowing them to access technology in this way. Something is missing and they're interested. So what would that mean. And that's really how it how I started teaching them.
And I literally learned like I would learn the concept a little bit better just before the class because then I was like OK I have to teach it. One is to just know it but then the other thing is to teach it. Those are two very different things. Sometimes it like makes so much sense obviously to us but when you're teaching it it really changes. And I think that was really helpful because it made me a much more confident coder because I'm like OK now I know these basic things very well.
And I'm actually really good at debugging stuff. Now sometimes better than the chat. But I mean in the very like in the classrooms set where people are like hey this is not working. And I'm like OK that's because you forgot this thing here or this logic is wrong. So that was very interesting and I thought it was a very surprising move for myself.
I did not think of myself as someone who could be an educator in a more consistent way. Do you think it had something to do with the birth of your son and like almost taking on that role of like teaching this human how to navigate life. No he was too small then you know like he was really really tiny when all of this started. So OK that point I didn't feel like you know like that learning is so basic like just standing up or like potty training. So like I don't feel so much like I was teaching him anything like you know it's more like he was observing and it's more like a.
Facilitation of sorts I don't know. In fact even for I was talking to Divas he's he's a curator and he helped me write like an essay about all of this work. And I was like looking at the difference between being called a teacher versus being called a facilitator or something. And I feel like I still cannot resonate with being called a teacher. OK what's the difference.
Like to teach kind of gives me this feeling that it's this it's one way only. But saying facilitator allows me to feel like I'm just kind of giving them the right kind of tools and practice processes and then they are figuring it out themselves. Which seems more true to something to do with feeling like teaching is about like has that kind of school classroom kind of notion. Like a weird power dynamic thing. Yeah maybe. Yeah exactly.
It's also very interesting because creativity is something that can be learned but cannot be taught. Like somebody can create like you know the right setup for you and give you the tools and like answer your questions. But you kind of have to teach yourself how to be creative. Nobody else can teach you how to be creative. Because what you're teaching is almost like unlocking a different dimension of people's creativity.
Like they are creative in some domain. And then like how do you extend that to something else. Yeah maybe like I grew up like my mom and dad are both designers and I'd never practiced but some things came to just by like being passed on. You know like using a cutter really well. Or you know knowing how to half score a board.
So you know those things came to you at home which allowed you to be a little more like hands on. And I just feel like I had a lot of that nurture then nature kind of thing at least in my creative practice. Firstly it was like at home and then I went and studied the same thing. And then obviously like sometimes you are creative in a way which is not so direct. You know the output is not direct.
You know maybe like my ways of teaching are creative. Maybe my curriculum making style is creative. Or maybe my art direction is creative. But I really wonder sometimes if I didn't have this background if I would have been creative or not. Like when I say maybe like some of my cousins who I am very similar to in nature I feel like they ended up not being in creative fields.
But sometimes I see people like you or I see Agat. You know there is this inherent inside. It's there. So like for me it's much more practiced I feel like I know how to think differently. And that really helps me to push my boundaries a lot more.
That's and it's not like an imposter thing. I just I really feel it. Like I'm creative. I can build your computer. No but I understand.
Yeah I can. I can build a very nice dinosaur mask for my son with whatever is available at home. No extra material. I can do that. I can like do really good origami and I'm really good with my hands and things.
I'm quite okay but I still feel like I don't think I can bear that tightly of being creative. That's so interesting. So a thing that I've been recently thinking about which is kind of in the same way is I was doing this thing. Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way and where she asks you to write three morning pages every day. And that has been an interesting exercise but she also like gives you some prompts sometime.
Like you know your childhood memories or something something and that is the week that I'm on right now. And like she asked to write something like what are your favorite traits as a kid. And it was very interesting because I did not write creative but I was a very very imaginative kid. And I think that like as I grew older like my understanding of it is I was imaginative. I think I was crafty as well.
Like I was good with my hands but I think somewhere down the line the productivity thing came in and that is when imagination became creative. Because I like added something to be produced at the end of it. And like we have talked about this many times you have also like my indelice scolded me on my obsessive need to be productive. But I think it's just interesting because like even when you were talking about it it's almost like you're saying I think that like I am creative by some definitions but I don't think I have all of the components that would make me feel comfortable calling myself a creative.
While a good coder you feel like I have all the components that are needed. Yeah absolutely. In terms of like being able to say that yes this is skill set I can build on. I find that I can confidently say yes it's a skill set I can build on I understand it understand how the logic works etc. I understand when people tell me about it.
But with the Rhyne I just feel like I always find that if someone did something which was brilliant that I didn't feel like I could ever be there. Like there's no I don't feel a natural way to pass to that but with coding I can see that I am like okay if I want to be as amazing as Nirant what are the things I need to do. Interesting. I can chalk them out easily in my brain. Despite the fact that you have had like design learning for almost your entire life with like your mom being a designer while on the other hand like the coding stuff is like it's relatively new right.
Like it's been five years or something like that. Yeah it's very very new. I mean I'm not trained formally at all in it. I'm not even done I'm not even done a course. You know I'm like I'm so untrained but but that's that's how I feel like I even when Nanditi and I do the code riff at the end we do a performance.
I never feel like oh like I did a good job. But but of course some aspects like how to get the client's vision out. I'm extremely good at figuring that out and that requires some creativity that requires like a lot of like having a knowledge bank or visuals and figuring out OK what will work for them. So that stuff I get. So maybe like if one had to think of it like as a problem solving thing.
Yes very creative. Yeah sometimes I do end up making interesting sketches on on P5. I have reasonably good skills at sketching. I used to be really good at calligraphy when I was younger. Again so something is this there's a book at home.
There's a calligraphy pen nobody has used for five years. Done. I say that that's how I like finished things like origami book finished. You know we didn't I mean we didn't have Instagram when we were younger. So this is how I just I explored things like this.
And you know Kali like waste paper is there and you're allowed to use it. Imagine 90s maybe I would be allowed to use this paper. So you know yeah. And I was seeing my mom's practice also which was very interesting. Her practices very rooted in like working for communication in the field.
And that really gave me a sense of what all design can be. Those notional ideas of like universal design this that she came from that background. She was taught in NID and then she realized that those same things don't work here at all. And that was really interesting and that's again like this whole diversity aspect that you know like as soon as you're talking about scale. Yeah.
She had this incident where she made a poster and that time you had to make it by hand. She drew this person saying no with their hand like this. And she took it to test in the field and people thought they are waving. You know they didn't understand this or they didn't understand across as a no. They understood as two sticks.
Oh wow. Yeah. So you know their visual understanding is entirely different or if you ask mom's website is really interesting. So if you ask a person a rural person who's maybe not going to school to draw their body. They draw inside and outside together.
And pregnancy is not drawn by showing a victim. It's drawn by putting a black dot. Oh wow. If you show a big tummy it means that the person is bloated. You know they have some kind of other gastric problem or you know some kind of like abdominal abnormality.
So and then she even found that the blob is differently portrayed across various like regions. But that was very interesting to see that journey of hers which literally happened as I was growing up because she was like building this role for herself. And yeah my mom is really cool. She's a Makatha Grant winner.
So which is like. Oh wow. She's a Makatha Grant winner. I wonder if that is also another thing that like you know you have such incredible from childhood examples of designers but you're like okay that I can't get there.
Yeah maybe. Yeah. It was not just them but like even in the classroom like maybe say in the design class like I would be like okay this person is really amazing and I don't think I can achieve this. But now and I can still feel like that about so many artists or designers even like even a simple sketch you showed me the other day.
I was like I don't think I can think like that. It was something for your podcast client. I cannot think like this. But then if like you know like Dave and Iran will come up with some GitHub link I will be like I have to figure out how they're doing it. Like you know and I feel like it's like okay maybe if there was no you again and I had like 10 more hours to give every day I would be faster.
You would have. But also if he was not then I may not have been competition mama. So it's like. Very true. Very true.
So it's very funny. Yeah. But yes like it's interesting like in my role at Ajay I'm still very much in the creative and like design kind of space because we do have to have a you know like someone to do the development. But someone on the road asked me what I do. I will never tell them that I'm a designer.
I would I'll say okay I will work on websites or like I'll say I'm a tech maybe I'm a technologist I work with the eye but but I would never specifically say that I'm a designer. Which you might I know so that you are a designer. Yes I know that you might say that you are one. I definitely I think feel the most comfortable you identify with yeah I feel I it's becoming lesser and lesser of my identity now because it's like at this point if I include product designer brand designer and game designer then that is 50% of what I do. So I can still say that that's the most you know inclusive I don't know identity but I have no idea how I'm going to define myself in a year.
But I've just accepted this aspect of my personality. Yes. I'm like you know what I'm never going to settle on one thing the moment I have a description for myself I'm going to be like bye now I'm going to figure something else out. I 100% I'm in that same boat. Oh no so then like once you fully feel like you have embodied computational mama then you can you're going to be like now time for something different.
But that's the thing maybe like competition can be like infinitely growing. So so maybe like maybe it can last a little longer or maybe like until I become a grand mama or something or if that's ever in the past. Awesome. This has been a super fun conversation. Do you want people to check out something that you've made or like you know where can they find you something like that.
So you can see some of the things that we are doing together including code drift which we have mentioned on Ajayabghar.co on Instagram. And I am on computational underscore mama. MAMA not M U MMA also on Instagram. Thank you so much for coming computational mama. Thank you.
Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is bestive goons and our audio engineering is done by Akshay from BTRPT music. We hope you enjoyed listening to this episode and if you'd like to know more about our guest you can refer to the show notes.
Thank you.