Divya and Meghana discuss about Meghana's journey from being a cancer researcher to a startup founder, and her experience of working in an industry that requires a lot of emotional labour and how she finds her balance through rituals. They also discuss her uncanny ability to bring the most nurturing and safe groups together.
Theme music is by Akshay Ramuhalli, you find him @btrptmusic. Editing by @beatnyk.
Our generation is in that uncomfortable space of unlearning patterns that were passed to us while trying to figure out what actually works for us.
There is so much of dating apps and it should be easier than ever to find a partner. But somehow there's a trust deficit. It's become tougher than ever.
In this episode, we will discuss some sensitive topics like sexual harassment, grief, depression. You can find a whole list of topics in the episode description. And if you find something that is too sensitive for you, please take care of yourself and make a decision accordingly. Hi, I'm Divya. Hi, I'm Kahran.
And this is... Thinking. I'm thinking. Welcome to this episode of Thinking on Thinking. Today, we talked to Meghna, who is a startup founder, who was an ex-cancer researcher and a teacher and many, many, many more things.
This was a very enlightening conversation about safety, how we build it, especially psychological safety, communities, how we think about rituals and how they can enhance our lives and so many more things. We hope you enjoy. It's very interesting to be strong independent women who carry that badge of honour and try and be with somebody, especially be with a straight man, which like, in Meghna's case is not a choice. In my case, it is a choice. I can just not be with one.
But in her case, it's not a choice. And she was just mentioning that she was on a panel at Bangalore Litfest and how she sort of talked about it. So maybe you want to share a little bit more about that. Sure, Divya. I think even for somebody who's been chronically single most of her life, especially during the 20s, I do find ironic that I've been on podcasts, that Bangalore Litfest panel was called Single in the City.
Really talking about how there is so much of dating apps and things like that, it should be easier than ever to find a partner you want to be with. But somehow it does seem like there's a trust deficit. It's become tougher than ever to find someone that you would be with. Right. I think there are multiple things at different stages of these relationships that make them complicated.
I know it was difficult for me to work a lot of myself. But I think our generation is in that unique line where we are walking between individualism and collectivism. Maybe in our parent generation, it was easier because there was still a very strong collectivist identity. So I look at myself as somebody's daughter, sister, wife, mother. But for us, we are so influenced by not just the West, but also just globalization.
Right. So we are thinking of ourselves much more as an individual. So what do I want as Meghana? Right. I really expect a lot of my partner where I'm like, this person should bring out the best version of me.
Right. So I think it's really about understanding where those boundaries are for us, but also understanding as women that there are certain non-negotiables in every relationship. Right. What makes it a true partnership? Maybe you can't give 50-50 all the time.
That's the thing that I have really worked on. I think all about life by Bell Hooks was really transformational for me. I finished reading it two years ago. I think. And then you fell in love.
Well, this was actually the beginning of my relationship with Bala. I do credit it for a lot of my mindset shifts because I think she's the first feminist who talks about love and romantic love as a radical act. And she looks at the love between individuals. She looks at communities of care. You know, it really changes the way that I think I was thinking of myself as a bad feminist.
If I'm with a man and then it's almost like you're doing this calculus all the time, where you're like, I'm doing so much emotional labor as a 50-50 household chores. But that's no way to live. You can't build a thriving relationship from a place of, you know, this kind of trust deficit. You can't have a psychological safety if somebody's always keeping score. So I think Bell Hooks really was the first one who was brave enough to talk about love as a political act.
Right. And yeah, I would really recommend it to you if you haven't read it already. Okay. So I will add that to my list. But there is one more thing that like, as you were speaking, I thought about.
We say this and I've also said this, that I want my partner to bring out the best in me. But like, what does that even mean? Because there are two options. Either we know what is the best in us. In which case, why don't we bring it out ourselves?
Or don't know what is the best in us? In which case, how will we know when we see it? I mean, I can't pretend that, you know, I know the answer to these questions. I think these are very deep existential questions. I think with this whole bring out the best in us, I do also feel that it puts maybe an unfair burden on the other person.
Right. Perhaps in some ways I feel like maybe this is what my parents did when they had kids, right? They were like, now our kids will, you know, carry our legacy forward and make it the best possible legacy. And they will live our unlived lives. So somewhere, I think now we're trying to foist it on our partners.
Maybe, you know, like, that's how we're thinking about, okay, this person should be an equal partner in the home. They should be an intellectual sparring partner who pushed me to think really critically. You know, they should be this and that, my coach, maybe my therapist sometimes, but then also eventually make me like the best possible version. What I've realized is that only we can really define that for ourselves. It also keeps changing.
And I think it should always be an ecosystem of support. I think putting that entire on us on one individual is overwhelming. I know in situations where I have been on the receiving end of that expectation, I have felt deeply overwhelmed and those relationships does not work out mainly for that reason. Right. Because humans are flawed, they slip up and there are going to be different things that only a perspective external can bring to you.
So I always see it now as an ecosystem of support. Sometimes my partner can step up. Sometimes my best friend can step up, whatever it is. But overall, I do feel that once you build that, right, that hold your vibe attracts your tribe sort of thing, you're built, I would say maybe five people. And those five people might also keep rotating.
It's a rotating cast based on life circumstances. But as long as you have that, you're in a good place because whether you want to hear it or not, they are the mirrors who will reflect back to you how your journey has shifted. Right. I think that external reflection is also so interesting because it comes from the filter of their own mindsets and values. So I always feel like I get a different perspective from what I'm viewing myself.
And it stops me from having that myopia that really leads you to plateau. Right. Because now you're like, okay, fine. I'm not just seeing it from this one perspective. I'm not just blocking out the noise that I don't want to hear.
I am also hearing it. It's almost like a composite of these five people, but it does really help you move towards your best self because you're getting constant feedback. You're getting constant encouragement. And imagine if you had to put all of that on one person. They are having maybe a low time, you know, depressive spiral or whatever it is.
Yeah, I even, you know, they're hungry and they don't have the time for that. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Like sometimes you're hungry and you're like, well, I'm not here to have a cushy conversation with you and be a ra ra cheerleader.
So that's fine. Like you go and get lunch. Somebody else can do that for me today. So I think that's so important. Interesting.
You know, whenever we talk, I'm always amazed at both your ability to self reflect and your ability to articulate. So there are many people you would find who are very articulate, but then you know that they haven't gone deep. So like their stuff is very broad, but they haven't had the depth and like vice versa. It's also true. But the interesting thing that I found is not only is it true for you, but it's also true for the people that I've met through you.
And like for our listeners, I haven't known Meghna for too long, like personally known of each other because both of our close friends, you know, she would talk a lot about both of us. But I would say that, you know, it's only this year, maybe like whatever, 2023 in the last few months, we became like quite close because we were both working from the same cafe quite often. I don't know where does being able to self reflect and then being able to articulate come from like there is a sense of vulnerability in being able to put two words. What do you deeply feel? Even if you know that I deeply feel this, like being able to say it is something, you know.
Yeah, thanks, Divya. I think I feel the same way about you. And I think it's definitely been the work of a lifetime. I think I have a long way to go. But I mean, I can't really take too much credit for it.
I feel very lucky that a lot of high integrity, high energy people really reach out to me and want to stay in my life. Right. They have made many ways put me out of my shell. So I would give them all that credit. I think in terms of reflective practices, right?
In terms of learning to share, I also think becoming a founder really helped with that. When I started Trustin, I am a non-lawyer. As many lawyers love to remind me. I am not an engineer, but then I'm building this legal platform saying we have to come back, work please, sexual harassment. And in the beginning, I used to, you know, when people would ask me why you're building this, I would tell them things like, oh, you know, it seems like the right time.
I had me to our big right now, but it just sounded shallow and really lame. To be honest, it's just nobody bought it. So after a while, I was really challenged because you didn't buy it. Yeah. And it also wasn't true.
I mean, okay, me too, whatever it was, right? Nobody really understood why I would be the right person to build it. Because like I said, I didn't have the preexisting domain knowledge or perhaps even the skills. But I think when I was able to find the emotional courage to say that, you know, this was a lived experience for me. And I just want to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone again, because we spend most of our time and therefore our lives in the workplace.
So if you're not feeling safe and empowered, you're never going to fulfill your potential. The minute I started saying that, everything changed, right? Even though the first 10 times I had to say it was like pulling teeth without anesthesia. It was really painful. And I think especially having to say this to like non women, people with authority sitting across many times they would react as if they were the perpetrator.
You know, what about false complaints? I mean, we've all heard a lot of this defensive backlash. It was very difficult. But I think the more I was able to share authentically, it became a virtual cycle. The more I wanted to share authentically, right?
So I think that's definitely one part of it, where it's almost like a professional hazard now. I think on the other part, being a solo founder, it's very easy to get caught up in your own BS. You can tell yourself any story, believe it, right? After a point. So I think I have to keep myself honest.
My team keeps me honest. Like I said, my friends, my ecosystem of support keeps me honest. I do have coaches. I do see a therapist. Those things help.
And I try to have my own private rituals, right? So every Saturday I'll sit down by myself, no devices. I'll be like, what was my cognitive challenge this week? Do I like the person that I'm becoming? Am I solving worthwhile problems?
And recently I've had a fourth question, which is what inspired me this past week. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I think that keeps me from getting into the existential door rooms, but also wounds that, you know, we did that year compass and your reflection together.
So I do try to now make these more communal because I've realized there's so much richness in how other people see you learning about their experiences. I think as a learner, I always compare contrast my experience with somebody else. And I'm like, OK, how would I have done that differently? Or wow, I want to try with the BS that next time.
So I think, yeah, all of these things have really contributed to me reflecting regularly. That's so interesting. And this is like fully like, you know, left turn from whatever we thought that we might discuss. So for maybe like last six to eight months, I've been thinking very passively about the idea of rituals.
So I've never been a festival celebrator. I am like fairly, you know, on the extreme side of atheism, not in the, like, in your face, get rid of everything kind of atheism, but like, yeah, there is no God kind of atheism. But still, like, you know, I understand from like my psychological study or whatever that rituals play a very important role in bringing peace and calm and contentment to the human
brain. I've still not been able to sort of think about them as like a part of my life. So actually want to ask you, how did you come about this ritual of, like, you know, at the end of every week or at the beginning of the next week sitting and like, you know, figuring out, OK, how did the last week go? Like, where did that come from?
What was the origin point? I think a lot of things will come back to this, but I really credit my time as a teacher. We teach for India to this, right? Because when you're doing 55 hyperactive fourth graders, I'm planning, like I'm very much a planner, right?
Those things help. You really realize that you need rituals. Kids thrive with predictability, right? There's a certain amount of autonomy that we have to give them. You have to empower them with, they need trust and things like that.
But they also really need rituals. They need routine, right? Only then you realize this very quickly. They're hanging off the walls and the fact that you're like, OK, I need to designate certain things, right?
So we would have a morning meeting. It would start with a certain, you know, quote that we liked. Maybe it's a little skip that they come up with, things like that. We also have a closing meeting every day. So it's like a deep breathing meditation first, you know, smell the rose, blow the
candle. Then once they come enough, you just do a very similar deflection. What is one thing I did well today? What is one thing I want to improve tomorrow? Right? Do I want to thank somebody for something they help me with? So you can start with the simple.
But what you start realizing is the compounding effects don't come from. I think people feel it has to be a very complex framework, right? It has to be the compounding effects just come from the consistency. Like if you do it every single day and it becomes part of your muscle memory, like, for example, my weekly ritual, I don't even need a journal now.
I'll just do it in my head, even if I'm just driving. So I think the consistency is what over time makes you somebody who becomes so much more self aware. Perhaps I see articulate as a result of that. I think another thing apart from the teacher aspect, I think each one
they are put a really big focus on coaching. I mean, it is an organization of teachers as well. Right? So I learned a lot from my coaches, the way they would set up rituals, the way they would sort of gently show you the mirror. Right. And now I try to do that for myself.
I also have a rotating cast of mentors I go to for different things. I've seen that if I don't speak to any of them, maybe like three months, four months, a quarter or more goes by, immediately like things start slowing down. I think, yeah, it also keeps your hubris and arrogance at bay because there is only so much you can do for yourself.
You really need to build that community, right? Whether it's people who are five steps ahead, whether it is mentors who have been there, done that, whether it is peers or in the trenches with you. All of them play an equally important role in keeping you on track. So I've been doing this bug log thing every day, right?
So for the first 100 days, I was giving myself a very strict structure. They're like, you know, before going to bed, I will remind myself, have I done it and I would do it and I maybe like missed two days or three days in 100 days. Then I stopped doing that for the next 20 days and I missed three days in 20 days.
Right. And it was interesting to like, you know, then I was like, OK, no, we need to go back to it. I need to add it to my to-do list. And like, you know, now I will sort of put it like I have this motion doc of my daily to-dos weekly, whatever.
And I'm like, OK, I try every day to finish my daily to-dos before I close my laptop, like put everything in done. And I was like, it needs to go in done every day. And it's just interesting because I think like I said, I'm not somebody who has structures around ritual as an idea, right?
Like even though I might take the same action again and again, I don't think I know how to frame it like a ritual because there is this almost sacrosanct feeling that somebody gets when you think of a ritual, which is like, oh, I should do this and I should be present with it. And it's like, I don't know how to put it, but like, you know,
bring your deeper self to it. And like I could hear it in your voice when you were speaking about, like, you know, writing about your journal and also like how you sort of constructed these, what I would have said as systems, but they were not systems. They were rituals because you are like, OK, I'm making space for more of these
students to show themselves while also making sure that their energy is not destructive. It's very interesting. I would actually think of it, you know, this is something you've told me where I think I was talking to you about having to juggle many hats. Like, you know, I consult as a coach, I am a solo founder and I have so many
other interests, right? There's just not enough hours in the day. So you said to me that joy has a greater pull than duty. And I would offer that back to you, right? So if for these rituals, you can tie it to joy, like, especially the first
maybe 100 times I was doing this weekly ritual, it was actually in the middle of the pandemic. So I'm working from home. There's no money in the bank. Oh, my God, is this company going to survive? So this definitely kept me sane where I would go sit on the terrace during the
sunset. So it'd be like a really nice cup of tea. I'd order some nice pastry. So it really became something I looked forward to. It was time with myself. Sometimes, you know, my dog would come and join me.
So now that it became part of the muscle memory, now it just happens, right? The joy is just linked to the ritual now. But I think if it had become a duty and I was like, no, I have to do this every single day or every single week, it would definitely have been very difficult for me to stick with it.
I see it because like, as you were speaking, I realized that we are both doing the artist's way. Yes, Kahran was also doing the artist's way. Yes, Sam has also done the artist's way. We have like clearly we are forming a community of people who have done the
artist's way. But yes, but I actually got done with it. Wow. But I realized I want to sustain both of the practices. And I think like morning pages are still slightly feel like a duty.
But I think the artist's date, I just look forward to so much. I'm like, oh, this is my gift to myself every week. It's not something that I should do, but it's like, I'm really looking forward to it. And it feels like what you are saying is like every ritual, if you can incorporate it in that direction, it becomes like easier on your soul for
the lack of a better term. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's difficult for us every time to remind ourselves, no, I'm doing this for my own learning, right? But to be honest, if you also see it the way Julia Cameron says it, right?
She talks a lot about your inner child and how to really release them so they can create. I definitely feel now I'm halfway through the book. As I'm working through the book, I definitely feel that I'm going lesser into these existential trenches.
I'm just more and more able to like create, doubt myself, not get in my head. Right? Yeah. So that's what I realized. What's so powerful about her practices, why the artist way is such a Bible for
creators, entrepreneurs, people around the world is because she ties joy and freeing yourself to feel that joy in almost every such space. Yeah. Yeah. As long as there's a sense of play and wonder, I think we'll always be in a
good place, whatever it shows, we choose. I agree. It's very interesting. Like I have seen that change in myself and like I could see that change in current like two weeks in.
I was like, wow, his and like, how should you say like his way of looking at himself shifted and I could see the shift. Like, you know, just a little bit more kinder to yourself. You're just a little bit like, like you said, not in the existential trenches. Right?
Like, it's just like, okay, I'm doing things and it means something and it might not like you can just sort of take the duty with the play in some sense. Absolutely. I love how she calls it like spiritual chiropractor, like all these practices. Like whenever I'm able to do morning pages for me also, to be honest, it's
still a bit of a struggle. Yeah. I wake up in the morning and then I immediately plaster my phone to my face. But I think as long as we unlearn that muscle memory, it really just, you know, this whole, I think why we might not be as productive, as present as we want
during the course of the days, because it's very hard to differentiate noise and signal, like the life noise, your brain noise, right? Your self-doubt noise, all of that. What I see with, you know, morning pages when I'm doing consistent, at least that the noise really goes down and then you can really hear the signal.
Maybe you don't have more signal than usual. You're just hearing it clearer than usual. That's a very beautiful way of putting it also, because I have like had the same experience, like there was like, after I finished it, I like, you know, maybe sort of was like, okay, I'll write one page or whatever for like a couple of days.
And I could feel this like noise increasing again. I have a sec. No. Okay. Let's just go back to the three pages a day.
Yeah. Okay. So like, you know, going back to what you do, I would imagine that like your work is very emotionally heavy, like in our conversations also, it's like, it's meaningful work.
It's very meaningful work, but it's also very, I would say work that requires not only cognitive labor from you, but like a lot of emotional labor. Let me not call it heavy, but like it requires a lot of emotional labor. How do you sort of retain your sense of yourself through it? Like, you know, as you're going through it, I don't know, maybe some of it has
overtime helped you find who you are also. But still like, you know, how do you sort of, I don't know, create a, I don't want to say boundary because it sounds too rigid, but like, you know, how do you maintain yourself as somebody solid while you move through like, you know, something that pushes back against you so much.
Yes, I definitely think that, you know, for your day job, if you're dealing with like power distances and imbalances abuses of this power. And you often feel helpless as well. Right. These are systemic problems, the sexism, the sexual harassment.
Sometimes I feel there's no way we're going to get anywhere close to resolution within our lifetimes. And that's something I have to make my peace with. And you're also working within the system to get justice, whatever justice looks like for the people involved.
Right. So in the beginning, it's been almost four and a half years now building trust in the beginning. It was definitely very tough. Um, I realized that, you know, it's not a mental health thing.
Perhaps it's a mental hygiene thing. I just need to talk to a therapist because otherwise my life was my work. Right. There's a problem with all founders, but I think especially when you're doing something that is so close to your own life experiences, it becomes even more
blurry, especially because you're alone. Like it's not even like you have somebody at the same for the lack of a better term power level as you to sort of like, you know, bounce things off or sometimes load it on them. Yeah.
I definitely think so. Our solution, we offer policy, we offer program, right? So for those pieces, I've definitely found like a lot of good consultants. So we have lawyers who come in and do the policies. Uh, we have trainers who have trained, right?
And they come into trainings annually. Those things have really helped. So that's helped me clear up my mind space for the product piece, which is more, how do we deal with the complaints? If a complaint comes in, I go in as the legal expert.
What are the, you know, questions of fact, questions of law, what happened? Is what happened a mountain to sexual harassment? If yes, then what is the punishment that fits the crime? Right. All of these are really heavy questions because you also have to be somewhere.
The devil's advocate and the therapist for the posh committee. Right. It really brings out a lot of your own shadow side that you didn't know existed. In both ways, you might be very biased towards the complainant, very biased against the respondents, things like that.
I think the things that really helped me again. I go back to rituals. I think as a person, because of my life experiences, I have been very spiritual. I come from a family that can be quite religious and spiritual. I've always found solace in that.
Right. In my past life as a biologist, I often found that a lot of senior biologists and scientists did believe in God and a higher power. They were themselves very spiritual, right? And they found science almost as stepping stone to spirituality.
So I think that's something I imbibe from them. So these kinds of rituals where it's like protecting your energy. So before I go into a training, you know, it's almost like I tell myself that, hey, there might be some disclosures, especially when somebody's disclosing abuse for the first time, it has its own energetic sort of discharge.
There was definitely a time, I think, some years ago where I got completely triggered by a childhood sexual abuse disclosure that was made in the middle of a training session. Right. But then unfortunately there were a group of people who were just sort of like snickering and then it was like, they were asking all sorts of rude questions again
about the whole false complaints and things like that. So I found it very difficult. And after that, I was like, I have to change something because I just can't be like this, right? As a facilitator, I have a duty to hold a certain space so that there's
learning outcomes for people who want to learn. So I think that's when I started realizing, okay, fine, I do like 10 minutes beforehand, I just sit by myself, I lower all stimulus. I'm like, okay, fine. You know, there's like an energy shield around me.
And if the words come at me as well, because I'm a very visual person, I can always visualize the words. It's like they will hit that shield. It's sort of not going to hit me. Right.
And that has helped my, I think, energy sort of not feel decimated, even when I've been in very tough sessions. So that really helps. I was trying to do that, you know, during a case. And then afterwards I check in with myself, like, how am I feeling?
What points or pressure points? How did I react? Do I want to change something tomorrow? So these things have been very helpful. I think, you know, as long as I have a personal laptop, professional laptop,
that's also helpful. I try to demarcate that physically. Same for notebooks. I don't use the same notebooks for different things. So I think all of these physical and energetic distinctions are very important,
especially when you're doing emotionally training work. You don't want to bring it home. I was just a very boring person. I was just venting to everyone and I was tired of myself. Right.
It's no way to live, basically. And I also think that if you cannot live this example of being able to deal with all of this, then it's very difficult for other people to see that's possible. So I think that's also something that I started seeing as part of my work.
I'm like, it is part of my work to make sure that I show up in a certain way, because that almost walks the talk. Right. So that's when I started prioritizing it. To be honest, when I felt I was doing it for myself, I didn't really do it.
But when I felt I was doing it for other people who are learning from my way of being, then it inspired me to make those changes. Good work. Because like it feels really, really hard to sort of, I don't know, presence is very draining.
I recently read this book called The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. There was an interesting thing that he said, which was around being present. And like his central thesis is, time is a myth that your mind has created. There is no past. There is no present, there is no future.
There is only the now. And if you live in the now, and be like, navigate the now the best that you can to your abilities in the moment, you will live the best life. And there is like nothing else that you need to worry about. If you need to plan, you plan, but be in the moment as you're planning.
So like just be with the plan and don't worry. Right. And don't think about, oh, but it happened. This happened in the past. And like don't carry the baggage from the past and don't hold the baggage of the
future either. Yeah. I think before that, I definitely did used to feel like presence was like, you know, exhausting. And even now, sometimes I feel like it's easier to let go of presence and just
like, you know, dissociate. But it's been interesting. So just be like, no, but just be present. It's slightly harder, but it's so much more rewarding. It's just in the long term.
It's just better. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really interesting. I definitely think, you know, I'm saying I have all these rituals the way I
think I have a long way to go. Like I like the idea of thinking of it as presence as opposed to like for me, like I said, with my energy, you know, that's more protective. It might be a permeable barrier, but I'm still, it's almost like armor, right? You're going in.
Yeah. Time for battle. Most people think I'm an extrovert, but I really self identify as an introvert. Nobody believes that not even Myers Briggs. So I think it's also over time.
I've realized it's more the spaces and the people who comprise those spaces, which determine whether or not my battery can be drained or recharged. I think I prefer one-on-one conversations because it's much deeper, feels more enriching and I never feel drained usually, but it's good to know that even group settings, this can work.
Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting thing. I also feel like in terms of, you know, introversion, extroversion, there are these notions of how we must perform in every group, which is exhausting.
I think it's exhausting to keep up with expectations. My usual default would be to come with like a kindness and compassion energy. And like, sure, everybody appreciates it. Like nobody's going to be like, why are you being kind, right? Like most people would accept that.
But like that's not their energy, right? And sometimes when that's not their energy, it's very hard to, I don't know, keep myself in that space also, right? Because I would feel like I'm giving a lot more than I'm receiving from the other side. And like as I've sort of gotten more and more used to this presence thing,
what I've found is like now I'm just able to reflect whatever people give me back very easily. So like, oh, you are a very banter kind of person. I'll just banter with you. I think I definitely feel, you know, like you're saying all of these are such
important learnings, but probably the context of abuse is very much an outlier. It's very different. I have been studying a lot of restorative justice recently. And that has been very interesting because it's like, it says you have to center the humanity of every person in the process, right?
Only the people involved know what really happened because only the weather knows where the shoe is pinching, right? And the other ones who will decide what is and isn't just. And I think for me it's been so difficult because usually the problem with things like justice and restorative justice is that many times now you put all the power
in the hands of the complainant to decide what is a just punishment. But that doesn't really solve the problem because you're just taking the power differential and flipping it on its head. Right. So I think it's definitely an ongoing conversation, but just in India, but
worldwide, right? What does justice look like? How do you restore that decision making to the parties, to the communities that are affected as opposed to us taking this top down thing, you know, as an expert removed from the context where like now we'll tell you, and you have to be
okay with this and live your lives. I think one of the most heartbreaking realities of my work with work with sexual harassment is that even when quote unquote, we're serving justice, we might terminate, you know, a predatory person, remove them from the company. And we are like, okay, fine, right?
Now justice has been served. Okay. We made sure the complainant wasn't therapy and all of that. But within two years, they almost always leave because there are just so many questions raised or there's so much insufficient offboarding support for
that party or even the witnesses many times. It just becomes such a hostile environment that they feel they have no option but to leave. Right. So what I can say is that systemically as well, we have a lot of work to do when
it comes to things like restoring justice or restoring energy. There is also this so much shame that is associated with it. Right. I can imagine, you know, if you are in a situation where you feel like you've been harassed.
I mean, this was maybe seven years ago. I was at a friend's wedding and it was like a pool party after and one of our college friends was a part of our circle, grope me. Now everybody was drunk. And till last year, I didn't even mention it to like, you know, any of my
guy friends who are like, you know, they're at the wedding or whatever. And honestly, it's still like, you know, some of the people's like, you right now exclaimed, Oh my God. I was like, maybe it was a big deal, but like maybe for six years or so, I've been convincing myself that's not a big deal.
Why are you like, you know, it was just a grove, whatever, like just ignore the guy. Right. And it's not even like I fully ignore the person. Right. I have hung out with him like sometimes in social situations in a constantly
feeling a little bit like, I don't really want to be here. And I think that like, there's such a weird sense of at least for me, shame. They're like, Oh, I was a part of this thing. Even though I was right, like it's not like I gave consent, but it just feels like you let the other person like, you know, treat you a certain way.
And now you should be equally responsible. So I can like, I can't even imagine, like, you know, somebody who's in a workplace where they really can't avoid it, but they really have to see this person. You know, my friends knew this person and I'm like, I don't want to cause complications.
So I'm sure those people who are in workplaces, they're like, I don't, I definitely don't want to cause complications by, you know, complaining against the director of whatever. I'm just a lowly employee. What's even going to happen?
I mean, I'm really sorry to hear that, you know, and I think your reaction is one of multiple trauma responses. Right. I think it's very easy for people to assume that, you know, we should fight back, make a fast, slap the person, whatever.
But that's not how human brains work. One, because we as women are socialized to and conditioned to minimize our experiences, our reactions, our gut instinct, whatever it may be. And like you said, keep the peace. But it's not just women.
Like, even, you know, I think there were several Hollywood actors who spoke up about very similar things, sexual assault happening to them, Brandon Fraser, for example, and he went out of the public eye for decades, right? It is a deeply traumatic experience to have your, you know, personal space, your physical body violated, and then the powerlessness that comes with it.
That is really what is defined as trauma, right? Like we didn't ask for it. We didn't consent to it. It happened against our will. And then there's a continued powerlessness where we sort of keep beating ourselves
up, even though we did nothing wrong. So I mean, I'm sure, you know, the way you are seeking like professional support and all of that, but I think even when you feel ready to speak about it, there is something to be said for keeping these things in the sunlight, you know, showing sunlight on these things, like just bringing in air.
Now, everybody will be able to react empathetically or appropriately the very first time, but I think, unfortunately, it is true that the only thing that really stops predators from doing all of this casual sexism or sexual harassment or sexual abuse is knowing that somebody will speak the truth as long as they feel that they're going undetected, right?
One is like you said, in interactions with this person and that group of friends, you are minimizing your discomfort and that is something that, you know, the body keeps the score, your mind keeps the score, all of that. The second thing is also that completely acceptable. They don't feel like, you know, they've said any of the signs.
You know, it's pointed out to them. I don't know. Many times they still don't accept it. I mean, like in this case, I'm sure there would be, he was very drunk. Yeah, but I think you might, you know, somebody's also be pleasantly surprised
at how many people, you know, are willing to stand up for the right thing. Maybe really see what actions they want to take, what decisions they want to make. But one thing I will tell you also, the ways that people have reacted or not reacted to sexual harassment disclosure is that every person can only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves.
Right? This is something my therapist told me and I really like that. Like, because, you know, in so many families, in so many friend circles, the people closest to us break our hearts because almost, you know, the usual things like, I have never heard this about that person.
She has never behaved this way with me. Are you sure? Right? So it's almost like that gaslighting thing. So I definitely say that we don't have that imperative to share.
Pair of a div. It's completely up to us if we feel ready or not. But the thing is also, if that person is not able to accept the truth, that's because they have not really accepted truths about themselves. They're wrong in certain situations.
They've just done the work to look internally. So you're not able to look at the truth with, you know, clear eye. So that's something I would say, not just you, but also a lot of other survivors who might be listening to this, because that's, I think, the most heartbreaking part of this job.
Like, yes, sometimes we expect a lot of people, even our colleagues and friends, right, to disbelieve us, to not support us. We can always blame it saying that that person is powerful, that person is rich, that person can make their life hell. But it's so much more heartbreaking as the people we love.
Because I really becomes, what is my prerogative for fictitious re-traumatizing myself and telling you this thing, which has taken so much out of me. Right. And I think in those situations, we just have to remember, it's not about us, it's about them, but there is definitely a lot of power to be reclaimed from
telling the truth and telling our story, no matter how many times we do it. Right. Every time it brings you back a bit of your power. And that's why I think we should continue doing it. That also answers like a very latent question that I've had for a long time.
For the last one year or so, I've been in like fairly intensive therapy. And she's like a very intense therapist as well. That's been like remarkable. I've seen like so much change in myself. But at the same time, a lot of it is like now I don't know how to relate to,
let's say the me from a year ago. Right. And like, as you were saying that, oh, it's okay. Every time you do speak about it, it gives you like a little bit of power back. And I think a lot of times the broader cultural narrative is the more you talk
about your trauma, why are you victimizing yourself? Why are you like, you know, taking the victim narrative or whatever? And it's like, sometimes it is that sometimes it isn't that because like, so for example, I think when I started being comfortable about saying, yeah, my dad died and like, you know, being okay with that statement grief doesn't go away.
But like the grief becomes a little less shameful or like, you know, I would say when my dad died, I think they were like a lot of big feelings of feeling like orphaned. In a weird way. Yeah. I think those feelings went away.
Like the more I became okay with saying, yeah, sure. He was sick. He died. Yeah. It's like, okay, now I don't feel that in a weird way, not feel like a victim anymore.
Yeah. You are good at what you do. How the hell am I talking about these things? Yeah. So taking back, you know, completely different direction, but like, you know, you went from
being a researcher in biotech to going into like, you know, something which is actually tell me your journey. Where did you start from? Where did you go? I mean, I think I've been very privileged to do this, that whatever complex problem seems
to me the most pressing is screaming at me at that moment. I think I have followed that. I also think that I might come off as not that I am a very emotional driven person. Right. And like I say, it is a privilege to be able to follow the call of that.
Right. I think the things that have helped me in good status, critical thinking, building from first principles, right. And in a certain way, fearless. So for me, also this comes from a grief thing.
Right. So I lost two grandparents to cancer. I think my younger sister, she was an M.E.B. student. I was a cancer researcher and we were like, okay, we're going to build this.
I mean, we really saw that up close because my grandparents lived with us. Right. But unfortunately, I lost her a decade ago to cancer. And after that, I just wanted to have nothing to do with it. Yeah.
But in many ways, I do feel like her death set me free because, you know, my dad, my granddad, we all had this love of teaching. And even though they were not teachers officially, they taught us, they taught their mentor mentees, pretentious. So I was like, okay, you know, that was always me.
I also wanted to be an academic so I could eventually be a research and a teacher as well. Right. So I mean, my sister was like, you know, life is too short. I don't want to force myself to do this PhD because that's why I just felt like
cancer just went so personal. I could no longer inject tumors into like, you know, mice. It was just too much. So I was just like, okay, fine. You know, I told my parents, I'm like, I'm going to take two years.
I'm going to do this Teach for India fellowship. So many of my friends had done Teach for America and I had seen their transformation. Not just as teachers, but as people, every time I spoke to them. But I think in Teach for India, like, you know, living in Pune, having these 55 students who are still so close to starting a nonprofit community center,
which is still functional and now rather than the women of the community, I think it shows you how much difference a single human being can make. It always makes you feel like something my grandfather's who came up from very different and difficult backgrounds. There are reasons still in me that education is a big level.
And if you are lucky, like, you know, that accident of birth, it should not dictate your destiny, should not dictate anybody's destiny. Right. Because he's a woman who lived that. So I think I was like, okay, I know now they want to do impact oriented work.
And there's no country like India for doing that. Right. I mean, if I care about creating impact, I care about creating it here. There were a few details. I worked at multiple nonprofits and then I went into, okay, let me try to see how
to build companies, how to build products, right? As a program director at VC accelerator. And then I think I need to move back to India in a big way in 2018 was when I was like, okay, I want to build this chatbot on the side. You know, it just felt like enough is enough.
There was enough rage that felt like a breaking point globally. Right. And I saw the global South like, it's like India and China, with your new countries where either people were talking about this anonymously or through intermediaries. Right.
So it's a so many amazing journalists online who are union sharing perpetrators at keeping the victims anonymous. But for that, they lost their jobs, right? And they were persecuted. And then in China, like for example, in Hello Kitty factories, people are actually
sewing their stories of sexual harassment into stockings because they were desperate to get the word out, but they were obviously scared of the supervisor. Yeah. So I was like, you know, here again, we see the North South divide where, yes, I'm very happy around the world.
We are reclaiming our power. But the global South is just so much harder, so much tougher, like the punishment for just telling the truth seems to be lifelong. Right. So I, that's what I'm saying.
I feel like tech can really solve this problem. Why can't tech name and shame the perpetrators? Right. Things like that. So that's really how the platform was born.
People started asking, you know, they were like, Hey, is this a real product? And at that point, it was just a bunch of Figma pages that I had created. But then, you know, we hacked it together. I mean, a couple of friends. I slowly decided to listen to people.
First I thought, okay, people are aware of their rights. But it's not able to access the rights to complain on the trust and platform. Then I realized I'm not even aware of our rights. Like, in the pandemic, people are calling me. They're like, you know, my manager called me at 2 a.m. on WhatsApp.
Like, okay. They were like, he was like, you know, show me your bedroom, show me what you're writing. I'm like, fine. And the person was like, is this sexual harassment?
I'm like, yes. But we're just not able to call it that because I think just defining what is consent, what is appropriating, appropriate behavior, right? It was just very difficult. And maybe a lot of the trainings at that time were a letter of the law.
We were not addressing the spirit of the law. And I think that's why we're going to other places as well, because I started realizing, okay, I have a background in teaching and training. I understand how mindsets can be shifted. But more important, I could see other glaring gaps that many times when you
don't give consent to a sexual actor, romantic relationship, the retaliation is usually separated by space, time and perpetrator. So I say that I don't want to be in a romantic relationship with my manager. Everything seems cool. Manager seems to be okay with it.
No problem. We can be friends. But then four months later, the finance team is not paying my expense reimbursements. Because it turns out the manager is not sending approval. Yeah.
So it's like your space, time and perpetrator. So it's so hard for me to call that sexual harassment because I can't make the connection between not giving consent and then having a financial backlash. But maintenance is how it plays out. So I think it is, it is complex work.
It is challenging work. Uh, where it's also very critical work. I'm really glad that on the world we are prioritizing this. But to be honest, there's also been a predictable backlash. Right.
So there is a long way we have to go towards inclusion and safety. I mean, it's also that, you know, whenever you try to push back against power, power does not like that. Yeah. We're seeing that play out around the globe in a very, very violent way currently.
Right. So yeah. And that is also true for the microcosms of the, you know, it starts with the family. There are certain, like it's like that George Orwell's animal farm. All animals are important, but some animals are more important than others.
Right. So whose voice is more important? Whose comfort is more important? I started realizing that maybe sensitization in schools and even in companies, it's too late because of power differentials and the normalization of abuse starts at home.
Right. So it really is, I think society will slowly undergo that reformatting. I learn a lot from my friends who are parents currently and the way they are teaching their kids to navigate their lives. I think all of us have had to learn this as adults, but I don't think that never.
But I do think societally we need a transformation before we can really have safe spaces. We can really have a society where everybody thrives. It's not just normalized always that you will succeed if somebody else fails. Yeah. It's very interesting you talk about parenting because I was talking to a friend of mine,
like a couple of days back, and she was saying that actually millennial parents make me feel hopeful about the world because like, so she is like the youngest in her family, both sides, her and her husband. And so she's like, you know, she's seeing parents everywhere. All of their cousins are married, have kids.
And she's like, just by the simple fact that the father is involved in lives and people have like, you know, sort of this cognitively, they know they should treat men and like, you know, boy child and girl child the exact the same. The language is different and how they talk about what they talk about. All of that is different.
Or like, you know, the guy would know he would be like, you know, willingly involved in things like enthusiastic consent. Like the guys enthusiastically involved in the children's life. Just, you know, if your father was involved in your life in our age group, like, it's a good thing.
Like, you know, but it's a good fortune. Like there isn't the culture was not that the father would be expected to be involved in the dot, like, you know, in the children's life. And so she was talking about that. And you know, even when you were speaking, I think like, millennials as you're learning in
adulthood, how we should be as adults to not hurt others around us. I think it's just maybe naturally just fits into that. Okay. You know, maybe let's just give the children right learning so that they don't have to do it as they grow older.
Yeah, absolutely. I think this whole thing about breaking generational trauma and things like that. I also think it's this moment in the cultural, is it zeitgeist? Yeah. Yeah.
Because, you know, like, for example, if you ask my grandparents, they would be like a person's personality and life journey is dictated by the position of the stars that astrology dictates your destiny. For us, in many ways, because of, you know, normalization of therapy and mental health, things like that, it's really become about breaking the traumatic sort of holds of not
just your childhood, but also your family's lives. Right. So I think we're also very fortunate to be at that certain time where right now we are talking about these things. We are working on ourselves and we're parenting in a way perhaps that's more mindful of not
just passively passing it on and being like, well, our lives are hard. Right. Yeah. But I also feel like, you know, for us, a large part of it is also, like you said earlier, globalization, right?
Like we are a part of a generation which saw a fractured world and then saw connected world. Like Gen Z and Gen Alpha have always seen connected world. And like the older ones have seen fractured world much more than they've seen connected and we are that bridge generation in some ways.
Like for example, you know, whatever is happening in Palestine right now, of course, like people would have known like, you know, about wars previously also, but they would not be facing like a backlash from global whatever, you know, everybody is opposing something or, you know, everybody has an opinion about something like that was just not a thing.
Even COVID pandemic was something similar. Right. Like everyone in the world is facing this thing. It's so rare to find somebody who didn't face COVID. Right.
And like such unifying experiences have, I wonder, like, you know, they do bring us together in good ways and in bad. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. And I think you're a collective solidarity building communities of values. Yeah. Right. As opposed to communities of proximity.
I think that's so critical and that couldn't have happened without the digital revolution, the social media. I love the word communities of values. Yeah. Yeah.
Do you feel like wiki is something like that? What? Like wiki ethics council. Do you feel like that is like a community of values? Is like that how you imagine it?
Yeah. Absolutely. I think we were talking about this before, right? Like how I like building communities. I never think of myself as that because again, in my mind, I'm a hermit who's
anti-social and mostly introverted. But I do realize that I really enjoy bringing the right mix of people together. And I do it for purely selfish reasons. The funniest thing is also in all the communities are built. They are still thriving.
I just do the first meeting and then people take it from there. So I think the most critical thing for that is there has to be a community of values. Right. When you have some ultra over special skill. Yeah.
I know your values are aligned. You all want the same direction. It's so much easier to pick up momentum, but I only started to find that direction. Right. Even this wiki ethics council.
So it's a group of like women, you know, all of us are at various places in our personal life and our professional journeys. But we're all here because we want to learn about the ethical dilemmas of, for example, Barbie and Oppenheimer, right? What we saw play out in those movies, things like that.
We want to place it's cognitively challenging versus psychologically safe. Right. So I think there are certain norms that we settle on groups like this. And once those are in place, it's almost like it takes a life of its own. Right.
So I also broke the Berkeley alumni group like this. I had brought the whole she breaks the law international group to hang out. So because I wanted lawyers to talk to me when I was starting to trust in. But I do think there also has to be a certain amount of autonomy that activates the group. To feel that ownership that, okay, you know, for us, for example, now,
Tina is going to come and debrief a book, right? Men who hate women. Before that we had to briefed invisible women. This is all coming because people are reading, obviously engaging with the world in different ways and they want a space that's safe and challenging to process it.
When I think we were built to be communal creatures, right? And this epidemic, I think it's only going to continue to deepen if we don't bring together like-minded people. So yeah, I think the ethics council touch board has taken off in a way that could not have envisioned.
I definitely did not think that one year and there would be this much interest. There would be 30 of us. And it's like you're seeing, right? I never need the spaces. Everybody comes with their own thing.
I think the minute you have that, it just becomes so much easier for it to be a true community. You don't have to have a forcing function where you're trying to bring people to come or ask them to facilitate a space. I think that's also where my classroom learnings as a teacher really help. That there's a certain degree of structure and definition.
There's a certain degree of like, amazing control. I think that is also another thing. So like, uh, I have in a viewer, I have some comparison also because of the AI community that we've been trying to build.
And I just think that like the communities that I've been to with you, this is also, there is all of the things like autonomy, alignment, all of that. But there is also a sense of warmth that I don't think is very common to find in communities. Like I've been part of other groups, communities, whatever before, like many, many different times.
And sure, in some cases, like, you know, eventually you will find one or two people who are your people and you will build a bond with them. But like there isn't a sense of instant trust and warmth. And which I have found in like, you know, both, like the wiki council meetings and also like when we did the review of last year and like all of the people who just showed up
for that, right? I just feel like you have like really warm and kind people around you. Yeah, I'm really lucky with that. Right. I think, um, it's also that whole your vibe attracts your tribe thing.
Have great vibe. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I think we don't really realize it, but we are putting our certain energy into the world.
I mean, I don't go to this manifestation thing, not really like that. But it's like, you can surround yourself with really do dictate a large part of how you show up, what you think about, what you talk about. So I think there is a certain degree of intentionality. I really had to cull a lot of people out of my life in, uh, as soon as I hit 30, I think
a pandemic helped with that entrepreneurship helped with that because it really gives you like a myopic sort of definition of what your focus should be. Yeah. Just don't have the kind of energy to spread it yourself. And also you just don't want to waste anything.
Yeah. Yeah. I think you stop caring, you know, I really lost that sense of like need for approval. The people please saying, obviously therapy also helped with that. So a lot of things came together at once.
The pandemic gave me enough time by myself to realize what and who is important to me. Right. But definitely in terms of the intentionality, articulating, you know, um, like these norms to people, to the community, people self select. That's what I feel.
Right. When you start putting this direction together, you start having a few rituals as a group, you do realize who is attracted and who's repelled by some of these things. Right. And with any community, I think also maybe because of my work with Trustin, I always
think of some of the safeguards. So if somebody is like talking too much, digressing too much, I might have a one on one with them for the WikiaTik's council, for example, if I feel that somebody has behaved in a way that might have compromised the safety or even just the psychological safety guide, I think people don't act immediately.
Yeah. Or some people might talk about it, but then there's no action taken. There's no resolution. There's no closing the loop. This is how people get disinvested in communities.
Correct. Yeah. Because I'm like now I'm no longer feeling psychologically safe to be my full self. I'm no longer feeling that part of my, you know, system being activated by this group.
I'm always a little bit scared. I'm putting myself back. Correct. So I think if community curators could really prioritize like that safety element in every way and just really quick about that's always my first priority.
Now everybody is just taking conversations forward. I have this keeping an eye out in terms of who's actually, you know, bringing more people into the community and encouraging them to speak, holding space as opposed to who is here, treating it maybe like a group can be session or who is here being very, I would not say abusive perhaps, but sort of insensitive.
Right. Those kinds of elements will be there many times. It's like if you speak to them, they resolve it themselves. They might not even be aware they're showing up like that, but if you don't resolve it, then you'll find all the first followers just dropping off.
Steady. Very true. Yeah. Because then they feel this is no longer my community. So that's important.
The fast action thing is so interesting and important when I first started like you know, working with the JNAI community, Niranth, the founder of that also has a very rapid action, no sort of like, especially so there a lot of it is because it's a group of like a lot of tech people. There is a lot of like harsh boundaries around what you're allowed to promote.
Okay. So like no self promotion is the key thing. And he has zero tolerance policy on that. Like you post once he will tell you, remove the post and tell you that you are not allowed to you post the second time you're removed from the group because like when
you have collected and because like there the safety is this is a knowledge sharing platform. Like this is a community of people who are doing good work. Yeah. They want to learn from each other.
Yeah. And if here all you are doing is rather than showing up with curiosity, you're showing up with pandering to your ego and we don't want because like again, you know, ego really kills curiosity. As I speak, like, you know, just an emotion.
Yeah. It's been interesting. Like it took me some time to sort of because I have that, oh, just be nice to people kind of a thing. Yeah.
It took me some time to get adjusted to it. But like, you know, now that it's been like close to a year, I can clearly see the difference like how it could have derailed if we didn't do that. Yeah. It's been, it's even though there are many people who rely on us, they react very
violently to, you know, being shown boundaries. Yes. Yes. They're like, I'm just gender free. It was very interesting to realize who it is gender free.
Like the ego is what is reacting. It's not the person's gender or upbringing. I think, you know, it's useful to have this monitoring mechanism in your head because that is not my responsibility as the primary facilitator. Right.
I might not be bringing in the content or I might not be running the session, but between us, I have asked a person to leave the ethics council and I'm giving my eye on another one. Right. It's just because there are some mindsets.
Okay. So the group does give feedback because this is a strong group and the values are aligned, but if I still see that the person is coming in with those internalized patriarchal mindsets, which are making other people feel like, you know, what is this?
Why are we giving airtime to this? It's my responsibility to address it. Right. So obviously we can't punish people for having different points of view, but every community has its core values.
Right. And if it's a misalignment, they're not a good or bad person. As a result of that, they're just not a fit for the community, especially at that level in his trajectory. And that's okay.
Everybody cannot be a fit everywhere. And I think that's where really moderators and facilitators hesitate. But I think with my experience, I'm like, no, like it's fine. Emotional courage and constancy is what I can bring to the group. I think for a lot of these communities, honestly, one, I've learned this the
hard way, right? Fingers burned lessons, learned kind of thing. I didn't really do it quickly enough. So some of the committees have fizzled out. The second thing is like, if you start doubting yourself, like, is this actually
a core value? All of that, it's difficult. So the first thing of meeting always define it together. We all made business cards together, which were cartoons. Like we defined our role in it and all of that.
So those things have been seen. What is the mental model of the group? And let's just make sure that's aligned. Right. It can keep changing year on year.
That's okay, depending on the mix, but your core group should never get disinvested because you don't have the emotional courage to call out somebody who's not a fit. I think you've found such a key thing because oftentimes products, you would have heard this, products just expect, okay, early adopters are going to leave.
Right. And you are saying, no, there is a framework to keep early adopters, especially in communities and keep them engaged. And you have to invest in like the values that brought them in and kept them in. Yeah.
You also have to keep adding value to what they value. Right. Like it can't become a static thing. It can't always be like, I have to keep giving just because I'm an early adopter. I also need to receive from this space.
But what that means is again, it's activated a certain part of need, might activate a new part of me with a new mix of people, but I still have to feel like, wow, this is like Reddit, but in real life, you know, like it's a place where I can be myself. I don't have to fear judgment.
I'm learning something new every time. Those things are very critical to people engaged. The music is by Akshay Ramu Halli of BTRPT Music. Editing is by Beatnik. Do you want to maybe share something where people can find you or like follow you
or like, you know, something that you're looking forward to doing in the next few months and like, you know, something, anything. People can find me on Instagram and Twitter at meg.coachinvas. I'm also going to make my coaching practice much bigger this year towards the second half of this year.
That's going to be trust in Meg. So that's coming up soon at the Insta page. And yes, I think, you know, apart from work staff, as I'm turning 34, it's time to like take stock and think about where I want the next decade to go. Right.
So as you know, now I'm trying to do these reflections within a community. So people are interested in doing that together. That's something I'll be happy to facilitate in March. Yeah.