Divya & Kahran come back together on the interesting ideas we learned from Meghana Srinivas & Samhita Arni in episodes 7 & 8 of this season 4: rituals, success, perception and identity.
Theme music is by Akshay Ramuhalli, you find him @btrptmusic. Editing by @beatnyk.
The mark of a talented storyteller is that they give you so many different things to engage with in the way they tell a story, no matter what kind of listener you are.
When you do something for a long time, you develop an intuitive sense of it. The follow-ups and questions come from that intuition.
Hi, I'm Divya. Hi, I'm Kahran. And this is... Thinking. I'm thinking.
Welcome to this episode of Thinking on Thinking. Today Kahran and I talk about our conversations with Sam and Meghna, especially around success, rituals, and we brought back our favorite topic identity. We hope you enjoy. You know one interesting thing I realized?
The three interviews I've done for this season, I have talked to all the friends that I've made in 2023. Like Aditi, I met in February, same with computational mama, who I also met in February, and then Meghna, I met some point in July or August, I want to say. Oh, that's so funny.
But you also met other people during 2023 also, no? I met, made some like really cool other friends as well. But just these ones were all from 2023. Yeah, yeah, that's cute. Yeah, I was like, huh, did I just sneakily do the podcast so that I could talk to them?
And then I was thinking like all of the people that you actually talk to are your friends for quite some time, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I would say all since I was gonna say all since I moved to India, because even Fred and I met really actually one score of started his Fulbright. So that was in 2019.
And then Mansi and I met, I think in 2018. And Sam and I would think that in 2019 as well. So yeah, I guess like all these people from like just before the pandemic seems like a lifetime ago now. Yeah, you know, what was my favorite thing about your conversation with Sam? The whole conversation, I was just like, oh my God, she's so brilliant.
Wow, she answered it so smartly. Oh my God, I love what she said here. And like just the questions that you were asking her as well, like the follow ups and everything that you asked her also made me think that this was this was a good question to ask. Like even if you guys went on tangents here and there, I think when you do something for a long
time, you develop an intuitive sense of it. And that's what it felt like that you had developed an intuitive sense of, oh, what should I ask this person? How should I talk to them? Well, with Sam, it's also she's just so interesting, right?
There's so many interesting stories. Everything leads to something when she's telling a story, right? There's always these kind of hooks that you can ask more to. I think it is the mark of a talented storyteller, right? She gives you so many different things to engage with in the way that she tells the story,
depending on no matter who, what kind of listener you are. It's also interesting, like she has a lot of context set up for metanarrative as well. So she's telling you a story, but then she also leaves the spaces to ask about features of the story, if I were to say, right? Like that's why I feel like your conversation went into the ideas of success and everything else.
Because while she's telling you stories about success, she's also dropping hints on how she thinks and feels about success. So not just what is successful in the content, but also her emotions about the concept of success itself. And then a lot of conversation just managed to be about that. So it's almost like that meta content kind of a thing that you can do,
which is the most fun conversation to have if you like thinking about thinking. It's interesting because I felt like I definitely had an agenda, right? I was trying to push her into some discussion about identity because I really wanted to just see where she kind of had thoughts, especially because I felt like I'd managed to get kind of interesting thoughts from Muncie and from Fran. But it was interesting to kind of feel like,
you know, her kind of questions of identity were not so much there, right? Exactly as you're saying, her kind of questions were around success. And what does it mean to be successful? And I think when you've experienced success kind of so early in life, how do you kind of go from there? And then how do you kind of figure out like what drives you and then what kind of person, like will you always be this person who like wrote a
book when they were 11? Or like, how do you find identities beyond that? And maybe one of the ways is just that stops being as much of a concern, right? As she kind of talks about, it's like, there's different parts of you and you feed different parts of you with different ways. And it's not so much like an overarching identity. As I kind of understood her, she was kind of almost indicating that in her, her belief, it's like,
that's almost a naive exercise, right? That you will always be a multifaceted person. And kind of figuring out how do you feel successful or feel like you're being the person you want to be is more of a challenge and less kind of hiding behind saying, yes, this is my kind of clear identity that tells me what I need to do in every circumstance. I wonder if a large part of it is also because she grew up so multicultural. Like,
this is how I felt about like friends who have multicultural identities, either they fragment in a way that like, it feels like a shattering of identity, or they fragment in a way that it feels like they are multifaceted. Like, I was having a conversation with a friend some weeks ago, and he was mentioning how when he was younger, his family moved every like, nine months or so, so even lesser than a school year, right? And he was like, I grew up without
having friends without really connecting with my peers at all. And like, there is some sense of that alienation that still persists. But when you were speaking with Sam, it really didn't feel like her place in the society was something that bothered her in that way. Like, she recognized that sometimes she would have these feelings of not belonging, but like, they are just part of life. And she just, you know, very casually moved on from it. Like, yeah, sometimes I think that,
oh, I haven't had a kid or whatever. But then, you know, that's also coming from here. And it was just interesting to hear her say that because it was almost like, she really doesn't care about how she is, I don't know, like how she is perceived, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I think the way she talked about not speaking Kannada, which is her mother tongue and living in Karnataka, right, where it is also the language of the land, it's just interesting, right? She didn't feel kind of
lesser or right, that she wasn't living up to a standard or something exactly kind of what you're saying about the kind of social expectations of having been married by her age or having had a child by her age, right? She doesn't seem to feel like, sure, she acknowledges that there's there and those are pressures on her, but she's not held back by them, if you will. Very interesting. Yeah. And you know what that's also making me think about? There was a very brief period of time when
I started forgetting Hindi, which is my mother tongue. And I had such a like, very ego hurt reaction to it from myself. I was like, Oh my God, like, I had gone to a Hindi poetry thing, and I couldn't understand what the poet was talking about. And I was like, wow, no, this is not okay. And I recently went to an Urdu poetry thing, and I was like, now I can understand it. Cool. You know, like I have redeemed myself. But it just felt like Sam didn't have any of those
feelings of, Oh, she needs to redeem something. Yeah, it's interesting you say that my husband, actually, I know struggles with the notion that he might be not able to read Bengali as clearly, or cleanly as he used to be able to. And it's a great source of frustration for him. But yeah, of course, right, if you don't see the language around you eventually, it kind of gets harder to engage with. In that stream of success, right, like it's useful to think about
the reasons why you're not feeling successful, at least like that's what I feel. Even if it is emotionally not always easy to do, it's always useful, at least I've found to be like, okay, but I'm not feeling successful. Why? Especially because as a creative person, it's very tempting to be like, I've done nothing. All my work is garbage. I am garbage. Nothing matters. But that's not true. Right. Like many times it is because maybe you have a fixed notion of what a creative
person looks like, or maybe you have a fixed notion of what your creative work should be like. Maybe you have a fixed notion of this is what success should look like. Right. Like I, for example, know people who go choose a completely separate path and still keep evaluating themselves on the old path. And it's like, you know, you cannot reach Mumbai fast if you're on the train to Delhi. I think especially when you're on some of those harder paths, or at least the paths with longer
paths, it becomes harder to ignore the benchmarks that it seems like everyone else is looking at. And so then sometimes it leads you to these confused states where you're like, wait, am I trying to do this? But we were talking about that. And it's almost like starting a company is the new investment banking. It's like, if you're smart, you go and work for a startup or you go do a startup. Whereas once it was like, oh, go join the finance world or become a consultant.
Yeah, I also feel like it's very interesting because like the more abstract these careers become, right? It's a little bit like how a lot of young kids are like, oh, I'm going to be an influencer. But there is no straight up path to be an influencer. Even if consulting is a low supply job, there is a straight up path to be a consultant. You go to an MBA college, you be like, you know, one of the top people in your class, or you do so many extra curricular accords that like, you know,
your portfolio is like your resume is very well rounded. Then like you can get hired at a consulting company. There are more steps to that. But there is a like, you know, system to it. But there isn't a clear system on this is what will be required to run a company. Like I remember when I was younger, there were so many people that I knew who were like, oh my God, by 30, I should be a millionaire. By 30, I should have this much success. By 30, I should be this much. And it's just,
there was some point when I like, you know, heard this stat that like most of the successful Silicon Valley startups are actually like the founders are 40 plus in age. And that was just like a really eye opening thing. When I compared that stat with like my friends who in their late 20s were like, I'm a failure if I haven't done this already. And like how much distortion that causes. I also know that stat, but I wonder a little bit about because also, right, like most entrepreneurs
will tend to start another company. So it may or may not be those 40 year old entrepreneurs, it's their first company. In general, yeah, but the point still holds, right? Those people have made some mistakes and they're like, or rather the point is reinforced, those people have actually made mistakes earlier in their career. And they have been a failure so that they have been successful later in life, right? Like the failure is not an anti indicator of their potential at that point.
It's actually an indicator that they have the probability to make a successful company. But what I think is that, I don't know, the advice that I've given to like some startup founders, and I think what I kind of also think is that if you look for where your gaps are and also where your strengths are, right? So understand, okay, these are the places that might make me well suited or these are the skills I would bring to a good startup team. And you know,
also, these are the places where maybe I don't have those skills and I'm not as excited about building those skills, but those are the places that I know that I need to have them in order to see a company be successful. And of course, there's a bunch of questions right in there, right? What are those skills you need for this company be successful? And I think there's a lot of books about, you know, those subjects. But what I feel like is, yeah, if you kind of think about those
things, then you can kind of know, okay, where do I need to go in order to be able to be well suited to start my venture? So maybe it's like, Oh, I don't have the depth in people capital, or I don't have the depth in financial capital, or I don't have the depth in, I don't know, like marketing or product development, like depending on what is it that you're saying, what are the skills I'm going to bring to this startup, right? And I think one of the other things that people really,
unfortunately, maybe like think is they don't stop that game, right? So they're saying, Oh, I need to bring all the skills to the startup. And then that leads to degradation at some point, right? You're not going to have the same quality in all the skills if you try and chase everything. At some point, you're going to have to be able to fall down. So yeah, it's an interesting point. I was just thinking about it in that context. How interesting, like it almost sounds like it's a
game of balance, because you have to challenge yourself, and you have to leave enough open so that you can learn and make mistakes. But also you have to bring enough to the table that you don't make very, very costly mistakes. I think, yeah, I think that that's very true what you just said. But I mean, I think that you can almost simplify it a little bit more to being like, it's kind of just being like, what do you want to be good at? Right? Like, you're getting into the
startup for some reason, right? Like, and maybe you want to make a bunch of money, sure. But hopefully you also want to be good at something. So being articulate with yourself and then therefore with the rest of the team about that can just be really helpful in figuring out like, where's the strengths in this organization? And then where do we still need to like fill? It's interesting, maybe if I use that as a little bit of a leap, but I met Magna in 2019 when she was really early
in her journey. And it was interesting because at that point, she didn't talk about things in the same way she did on the podcast just now. She not really talk about her reasons of why she walked away from biology, just that she decided to leave being a biologist or studying to be a biologist, and then decided to start this company. And in neither case, did she really highlight her reasons for it. And it just made a lot less of a compelling story. I actually remember, and I was just looking
back at my notes a few days ago, actually. And I, yeah, I could see my notes of my conversation with her. And it wasn't super impressed by the company at the time. I was like, I didn't really understand where it was going to go or what were its strengths, right? And I think that's what kind of connected for me in my mind a little bit, because I think if you can articulate what your strengths are, that really can help articulate for the company kind of what your strengths are. I think it's
just interesting hearing me on the podcast, because now she has so much more of a clear articulation of her strengths, right? And then also like where she wants the company to be. And I think she just sounds like she's a connector. She's like, and I think a connector both of people and ideas, just an interesting kind of place to be. And I think also it feels like she's set her targets at like a reasonable level, if you will. Like when I talked to her before, I remember it being
kind of like this thing of how we're going to change the story of like workplace harassment. And now it just kind of seems like we're going to do good work. Like her story kind of seems to have changed a little bit. And it's really interesting to think about how that evolution happens. It's almost like her story became more concrete, and it became more abstract, both at the same time. Yeah, I think because when you get into the detail sometimes you do, yeah,
it becomes more concrete. But then also you're applying these kinds of values. And then these are people's lives. So it has to, it can't be very hard, right? Like it has to be thinking about all sort of sides. I thought it was really interesting how she was telling that usually even when there's a finding in the side of the victim, the victim sent to leave the company within two years. And then her whole point about how retaliation will happen slowly and over time and in ways that you
can't really pinpoint back to the moment that caused it is just, yeah, it's difficult. It was really interesting just to talk to her about it because it really was very clear that she's values driven in the work that she does and in the life that she leads. Like in some ways, I also found it quite inspiring because, okay, so I haven't really, unless you say the domain overall as like sticking to something, I haven't really stuck to things
for too long in my life. But it was just interesting to see how she just grew with the company. It was very visible that in the way she was talking about it and in the way she understood herself, her work has helped her understand herself better. And like, oh, these are the points of alignment that I have. And like, yeah, okay, these are the challenges that are there if you are a solo founder, and then these are the benefits of the way I'm running the thing. And even other
conversations that we have had besides the podcast also, it's just always very clear that this is somebody who is very values driven, while like a lot of people that I have talked to, like who do startups, they are sometimes they are business driven, sometimes they are very strengths driven, that like, oh, these are the kind of like things that I can bring to the table. So I'm going to do it. It was just interesting to talk to her and her being like, this is the world that I want to
live in. So I'm just going to put effort to do it. I think that's different than everyone else we've talked to on this season, because I feel like most of our guests have been driving after some success, right? It may have different forms, but there's something that they're kind of like going after. And it's not so much about saying we're doing, you know, the right thing, the good thing every day. And that's that's kind of the routine is the success in itself almost. Yeah, what a unique
perspective on life, right? Yeah. Now that I think back about Sam's conversation, it feels like Sam is also leading somewhere there. But she's not at that conclusion yet. And in Sam's case, it's different because it's like, oh, early life, like, you know, superstar success, what do you do then? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, Sam and I got into this interesting side conversation for a bit, which I can't remember if it made it to the final cut, but about whether in order to be
an artist, you need to have a sense of identities and you know, being able to believe in this notion of identities is kind of a constituent part of having artistic output. And I wonder a little bit about this notion in relation to that, because I guess maybe it's the thing that you're actually kind of often telling me, right, that building kind of the routines of just kind of steadily producing work is really kind of the hardest part. But also once you're there, that is that is kind of
the key to being productive and prolific as an artist, which would kind of point to an attitude similar to more what Meghna is saying. Yeah, actually, a friend of mine recently asked me if I feel accomplishment, like as a feeling if I feel accomplishment. And it was interesting because I was like, logically, I can see things that would be counted as accomplishments. And I can say that they are accomplishments, but I don't know if I feel accomplishment. But at the same time,
the joy of process is real. Like if I'm making things like if I'm, you know, like taking my pencil and putting a mark on the paper, I can actually feel the joy and delight and that, like, you know, what I'm feeling from what you're saying is that like, probably Meghna has gotten to the point where that just feels like a day to day process of like running her business. I'm sure she would disagree because yesterday she made a very sad post about how much frustrating being an entrepreneur
is on Twitter. So I was like, hmm, okay, maybe that's not every day. I don't know. I mean, I wonder then if it gets hard on the days that don't go as well, right? When your measure of success is like, did today go well? I don't know. It's an interesting place to be. I also thought it was really interesting that conversation you guys had towards the end about like, or I guess it was kind of the middle, but about rituals and the kind of difference between systems and rituals.
It was just really interesting how she talked about basically like, I would almost call it like a carryover sense of joy, right, where she would try and build her rituals by using something that she knew she found joy in and then adding that to the thing that she wanted to create joy in. It was just an interesting notion. I never thought about that as a way to make something fun. Yeah, actually, I had forgotten. Thanks for bringing that up. How do you think slash feel about
rituals? Oh, like in your life? I mean, I don't know how many rituals I really have. Okay, but like, what are your emotional notions about rituals? They feel inaccessible. Like, I'm very intrigued by them. I don't really understand how they exist. I don't know. Or I don't understand how they don't become boring or like frustrating or yeah, I don't understand how they exist. But that's why it was so interesting to hear that
little tidbit where I was like, Oh, I mean, there's definitely things I find joy in. Wait, so do you feel that way about habits also? Yeah, maybe. How do you feel about like us having, you know, us talking to each other with quite a regular frequency? And then that's also almost like, I don't know, you want to call it a ritual or habit, a system, whatever. It's astounding to me.
Wait, is that the only consistent action in your day? That you're like, Yeah, this is gonna happen. Yeah, I mean, especially in the mornings of my days. Because I don't like always brush my teeth before we talk, or like, make the bed. I don't know. Sometimes I don't write my wording pages before we talk, like do them at some point during the day, usually. I have not been making the bed lately, but I've been involved. I didn't grow up with an environment with like a lot of like,
schedules or like rituals. So I think maybe that is part of it. I don't know. What are you next, not of like classes or sports or something growing up? Wouldn't that require some sort of like schedule? Yeah, but they were only for like a quarter or a season, right? So and then you would have a different sport. Only thing I once I started to swim consistently, I guess that was a thing. I don't know. I've never like had something that I missed it when I wasn't
in my life. Really, like, you know, I do this thing every day. And if I haven't done it, I'm like, Oh, I feel a gap. Do you know what is interesting? So last week, my artist, they didn't go particularly well. I went to this manicurist and she didn't do a great job. And I was like, Oh, my God, it's my second time getting my nails done. And what a bad job she's done. I don't like it. And I realized that I'm feeling a gap that I didn't do it last time. And that was very interesting. That is like,
it's not even a regular, like you can't call it a habit or a system, right? It is actually a ritual that I am doing. And I could feel the internal upset because of not doing it. Especially after the conversation with me, it was extra interesting. That is really interesting. So you have kind of built it over time. I guess you've done it for weeks now. Yeah, maybe like 12, 13 weeks. For some reason in my mind, it's like, it needs to be very consistent, like at the same time of the day or
something the same day of the week to be a real ritual, or like the same point in the moon cycle. I don't know. Okay, this is how I would think about it. You know how like, sometimes you might look at somebody and you can play code. This person really looks like that other person. And your friend would be like, no, they don't, they look completely different. Have you had that experience? Yes, absolutely. Right. And it's because like the anchor points in your mental map of human faces
are different from your friends. If we think about that, what is the definition of a ritual in your brain? Because it involves some sort of fixed points, especially temporarily, like it needs to be related to time in some way, shape or form, right? Well, it's interesting you say that because as you were talking, I was thinking about it and I was like, I do go to yoga every Tuesday and Thursday. And then every time I go to yoga, I always go into
a steam room, right? Like I just, I always go for a steam every time I go to yoga. So one could say is that when I do yoga in the studio, I have a ritual of going for a steam. Or a habit, like at the very least, a habit. But it feels like if I didn't do it, it wouldn't be a big deal. Or maybe you're the kind of person who doesn't want to connect your identity with somebody who does have rituals and habits. Because like, I know that I felt that like when I started reading the artists way
and she doesn't call these things habits, she does call them rituals, right? Like she talks about them in that tone that people talk about for rituals, like you show up and you do it. But like, it's a very, you know, kind of like spiritual language. She's not saying it in the way that an Alfa bro entrepreneur is gonna relate to. It's a very like, ah, yeah, the hippy vibe, even though the content is the same. Like she's saying it in a very ritual
sense. And I had like, initially this one arm distance feeling with it. And I was like, okay, it's just a habit. And you just get up and you do it for yourself every morning. But like, it's just a habit. So maybe you just don't like both of those things. You're like, I will not be time bomb. Nobody shall define who controls my time, not even myself. I think it just feels like a really big deal. Like building a habit or building a new ritual or like being a person who has
rituals just feels like a big deal. Like too heavy. Yeah, it's just like, I'm not sure if I'm that person. I don't know. It's very interesting. I feel like both of us are very identity oriented people. Have you noticed that? That's why I was on that quest to make sure that every guest was identity oriented and then realized to my dismay that perhaps it was not a humanly unifying trait that all of us share,
but instead an accommodation that some of us have created for ourselves for whatever reason or whatever God forsaken reason that our ego could come up with. Like, I don't know. It connects in my mind a little bit to how I felt when you and Meg know we're talking at the beginning of that episode about how there's a search for the best version of yourself and that search can be manifested through the right partner. And it was interesting
that framing because I had always kind of thought about it as you are different versions of yourself with different people. And it's a question of are you being the best version of yourself? But that framing to me feels a little bit different than the way you guys had talked about it. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think what you are saying is like you are aware of all of these different versions and then you are choosing to present one or the other, right?
Like the participator self is different depending on the situation, but it's not like you are unaware of who the participator is. But what Meg and I were talking about was like, can your partner actually reveal parts of you that we can see even from yourself and which do compose like a better version? Because that is a different question. And that went into all these other questions of like, what is better? And yeah, where were these parts hiding earlier?
Yeah. I feel like both of these episodes that we did, there is like so much in them that I'm also struggling to sort of like summarize them in a unified way. You know what I mean? Like there isn't a unified theme even within the episode itself. Like we could say, oh, this one is about this thing and this one is about this other thing. But even there, it just feels like it's so much more vibrant, the conversation than like what a singular word would be able to capture.
Well, I will immediately challenge you on that. I don't know. I mean, I think in some ways I feel like both of them are about finding purpose in your life, right? And how I think they both kind of evolved through these different versions of that. And I think actually in both of their cases, there was something that kind of society expected of them or expected them to be. And they kind of found their paths despite that, right? Yeah. It's interesting. So for whatever,
like, you know, 30 episodes, we talk to each other and we just sort of like explode certain things. And even though we have just had like six interviews, I feel like my thinking has evolved so much. But like these other people, not that like talking between the two of us didn't evolve my thinking. But it's just it's interesting the amount of breadth that like a single individual can cover when you are interacting with like a wider variety. Yeah, I think we've also gotten a
little bit better at almost uncovering breath through depth, right? Whereas I think in our earlier podcast episodes, we had a tendency to really cover a lot of topics, but not cover them as deeply. And I think now we actually tend to discuss less, like, you know, if you will, discrete topics, but discuss them in ways that are just more illustrative of larger circumstances, right? And more applicable for how people would think or where they would apply them,
even outside of that particular way that we're discussing it in that moment. So I agree with you. But I think I would say I think we've also progressed perhaps a little bit. But perhaps the progression has been because we're now interacting with other people, right? And there's only so much that you can kind of grow when your feedback person is always the same. No, I mean, like, New York Point is also correct. Like a lot of it might just be practice,
that like we have practice with each other and like finding our voice and what topics interest us. So now when we are talking with external influences, we can actually navigate situations in a particular fashion. I mean, I guess we have a habit of a podcast. It's interesting notion. What does it make it? Shouldn't it be easier when it's a habit or something? Like, or you're supposed to miss it when it's not a habit? What is this?
I think if I remember correctly, like, habits don't use dopamine, but habits use the same circuitry that opiates use in your brain. Like opiates do it at a much more like, you know, amplified level. But the neural circuitry is similar. So like, it's the same thing. You're not you won't feel reward if you're brushing your teeth, like, you know, every day. But if you don't do it, you would feel like, oh, shit, I have not done something between habits
and rituals and systems. A lot of it is also language. And what I would say is like, cognitive constructs are different. So how you feel about them and how you think about them are different. I don't know how much neurologically would be different. I would definitely say that for me, it's difficult to kind of muster the momentum or maybe enthusiasm to change state, right? Like, maybe if I'm going to a place or whatever it is, right? But some things are less hard, like going
to yoga for sure is not that hard anymore. Right? Like, I will just kind of go without really having to work myself up to get there. Yeah, I mean, it is quite commonly known, right, that people who are neurodivergent, their needs for rituals and habits is much higher. Especially, like for ADHD folks, it's very hard to build systems, but they also benefit a lot from having systems. But it's also a lot of them are dopamine processing, right? Yeah. Maybe we can get somebody who is
super end-of-system building and think of anybody who is, you know, too much into it, but it will be interesting. Thank you for listening to this episode of Thinking on Thinking. The theme music is by BTRPT Music and the editing is by Beatnik.