Divya and Kahran discuss externalizing motivation and particularly externalizing parts of the hard parts of the creative process, and speak of embodied versus cognitive thinking. And the difference between finding resonance and liking something.
Mentions include: the book I'm Very Into You, which is correspondence between two artists, Kathy Acker and McKenzie Wark, the early 2010s TED Talk by Elizabeth Gilbert and Plato's allegory of the cave.
The value that you get from something changes over time. One of the things worth exploring is understanding what that value is as you go into your third year of anything.
I feel like I'm personally in that zone of exploring what all this could be, rather than defining what it is.
Hi, I'm Divya. Hi, I'm Karyn. And this is... Thinking. I'm thinking.
I feel like our most fun podcasts for me have been ones that have been around things that both felt topical but also felt like things we've been thinking a lot about. As in? As in... That might be something I've been saying to myself for a long time.
And I'm not sure if it's actually true anymore. Which is kind of funny. I just think when we had started the podcast, one of the things that was interesting to me was to capture our thinking at a given moment in time. And so I just have repeated that for a long time. But I think now we branched out from that a little bit, right?
Like sometimes we're having conversations that aren't so much the things we're directly working on, but it's still been fun, right? So that's where I'm saying I kind of paused on it just to think about it. Maybe that's not as true as it once was. I'm not sure if it is because some part of me naturally resists sort of being classified in a box. Or if it is because as we've been doing more podcasts, I've been exploring other ways of thinking about things.
You know, yesterday when we were discussing that maybe we should do these sort of reviews or presentations. Or like, you know, today when I asked Suresh Vati and she said that, oh, I would love it if you did it for our website and like, you know, how our products sold and how is the product story told on a website. I don't know if you've had a chance to read her message. But like, I don't know, like her idea also seemed really cool to me. Like it isn't just presentations, but like, you know, looking at something and discussing that even conversation with Remy and your dad made me think, oh, these are people.
And conversations I would not have engaged in if I didn't have the podcast. And I really feel like at least I'm personally in that zone of exploring what all this could be rather than this is what it is. What would you say some of your favorite episodes have been? I really liked your conversation with Sam and with Dina. I already said like I really enjoyed talking to Remy and your dad.
I really enjoyed like talking to whoever I talked to. Like if I'm just going through like, you know, in my head, I'm like, oh, I really enjoyed talking to Seerats and I really enjoyed talking to Aditi and I really enjoyed talking to Anurati and Ambika. Like, you know, I just like it really feels like I've enjoyed having the space to talk to people. And maybe earlier it was in my head framed as, oh, you get to talk to your friends and like, you know, who you think are cool. But then now it has expanded to you get to talk to people who you think are cool.
But I really don't want to give up the part where we talk to each other because I feel like there is something really interesting about just reflecting on things together with you. So like, for example, when I talked to Pradeep, I really was looking forward to recording with you the next time because it was like, oh, it would be interesting to hear what you think about this. The same thing like, you know, with Remy, I was like, okay, it would be really fun to talk about this with you. You still wouldn't revisit the notion of interviewing someone together. We can. That I said yes to like some months ago.
That is true, actually. I suppose I can't follow through on that one. You didn't even suggest it with Remy. It's just interesting what stood out to me, which was kind of similar to I think what stands out to me too. When I reflect on my favorite episodes is that I don't think a lot of the episodes we've done since we've started doing interviews have been my favorite. The ones the two of us have done. There were some standouts in the seasons before. I personally don't remember any at all.
From before? In the sense that like, I don't revisit the podcast, right? Like, I listen to it when I listen to it. But I think that at least to me, in the moment, having those conversations is significant. So like, let's say if I think about this season, I don't remember any of our podcast episodes specifically about success.
But I know that like, just having these conversations with you about success has evolved. How I see success. No, I wasn't getting at it from the point of view of memorability. I was getting at it from the point of view of like, depthness. But now you really gave me pause and I'm really thinking about what you just said. But you were saying something about memorability.
I don't know. It reminds me a little bit of how I'm reading this book right now called I'm Very Into You. And it's the correspondence between two artists, Kathy Ecker and Mackenzie Work. And they wrote all these emails over two weeks in 1995 after a really briefly meeting. And they're like kind of like, flirty, they're very fun. And it's just clear because there's so much commentary about other artists and kind of works that are happening
and themes that are happening in artistic movements. Like that is a lot of how they're communicating and what's giving them solace and what's, you know, suggesting things to each other. And sometimes that is flirty, right? But it just occurs to me in a lot of ways what we're doing is a version of that, right?
That we're having almost a collaboration about certain themes. I just hadn't really thought of it as more like of an artistic collaboration. Or if you will, maybe even one of the themes that's come back more and more in my MFA is this kinds of notions of community and like who are you kind of working with as an artist, right? So as you're kind of figuring out the ideas and the themes that your work is kind of around
or the kind of places that you're trying to push things forward, there'll be other people both like alive and dead that will be exploring similar themes. So how you find those people and where you kind of communicate with them is just a notion that, you know, some people do it through their work, some people do it through essays, some people do it through, you know, live things.
It's interesting to me to think about this in that kind of framing. And I think that your thinking has evolved in these conversations. It made me think about how both in collaboration or in just in working with people who you find challenging in some ways, I think you kind of hone your own abilities. Or maybe I should reframe that.
I think in working people who challenge you, whether that isn't a collaborative or in a more... I was going to say, yeah, I kept thinking combative. It's like, that is not the word that it goes with collaborative. Anyway, so when it is in a more collaborative or competitive way, like working with these kinds of people, I think it just, it challenges you to be better, right?
And that's an interesting way to think about the podcast. Like I feel like at least for me, I haven't really truly let myself lean into collaboration ever, honestly. Like even the people that I have worked with. So for example, like I have been working with my sister for five years, six years at this point. And I feel like we have still managed to sort of like draw a box and like, you know, professional collaboration in this box.
And like friendship or sisterly relationship in this other box, right? Like I have managed to somehow separate the two, but I don't know how to put it. But I feel like just like right now, as you are speaking and reflecting about that, I think that in a very weird way, because the podcast doesn't have an end point and because the podcast doesn't have like a metric of success associated with it.
I have in some ways just let myself explore the parts which are more collaborative in the co-creation sense. Which like, oh, I'm not coming with ideas like, you know, of what this needs to be. And you're not coming with ideas of what this needs to be. But together we are exploring like these conversations also. We're in sixth season and still like we generally do not have a crisp idea of what are we going to talk about today?
Like we just, you know, come together and we know that like, you know, more often than not we are going to be able to have like a good conversation. I think that notion is interesting. Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think I have this need for purpose that goes as strong as like your need to have a real product. Like I think your struggle with ephemerality is very similar to my struggle where I'm like,
well, if what are we doing this for, you know, and it just like it sits so uneasily with me that it keeps coming back to me. Right. So I think somehow, yeah, I think part of the reason why we're in the sixth season and having this conversation again is because it does reoccur for me. It's hard to look at things as play when they're going out into an arena, you know, we're not just making it for ourselves. I mean, like I'm not saying I'm generally too good at that either, but isn't this for ourselves in a certain sense? I mean, isn't everything just for ourselves in a certain sense?
Yeah, exactly. Precisely. I got you. I got there before you. No, in the sense that like, you know, we might, when we are trying to think of making things, we might try to say, oh, this is for an ex-lazy person and this is for that. Like there's something that is making you choose that one particular way of looking at things in that one particular way of thinking about things. At least like I feel like part of that is because there's something in you that wants this thing to exist.
So like, for example, we could be talking about a hundred different things right now, but we are talking about this specific thing, not because like we care or honestly, like I'm also saying these things, not because I'm worried about what you will think about it, but mostly because I'm thinking about how I feel about it. As you like this matters to me, so I'm saying it. Do you feel like when you're saying these things, you're very much like in your embodied self? What does that mean?
It's a concept that I've recently was learning. I did this workshop in Egypt actually a couple of months ago, but it's something I've come across in other places as well. I think of it as very similar to that. You know that concept of like a whole body? Yes. No. Okay. So it's like your mind, your body, and I can't remember what the third part is in the whole body. Yes. But it's just this idea that you can kind of can when you get more body awareness, you can kind of feel like you can cognitively feel some things right, but you also can kind of feel this is feel like the right thing.
Maybe the third part is like emotional, but I feel like maybe that is tied to your body. Anyway, but so do you feel like you're very cognitively saying this notion or do you feel like it's a notion that is more coming from a different place? Does that make sense? Actually, no, I don't know what you mean. Say more. Okay. Maybe I would answer you by asking the question in a different way.
How do you feel about the notion of like artists channeling a force beyond them? So like whether it's like a muse or like maybe you're some part of your subconscious, but this idea that right, like your inspiration or this indelible notion of like creation comes from some part that's you, but some part that's also maybe beyond you. So I first heard of this back in 2009 or 10, I want to say maybe 12. I don't know. There is a TED talk by Elizabeth Gilbert about the same notion. Okay. So what is she even talking about?
She has that line about the horses running towards you, right? The inspirate. I remember that. Yeah. And then like eight or nine years after I had first heard it, I like heard it again and I was like, oh, I can like, you know, some water relate to this. And as time has passed, I feel like that's a way of looking at things to unblock yourself. So like sometimes the responsibility can feel too much. And so if you just externalize some of it instead of personalizing it, because both sides are subjective, right?
Like to personalize everything is also subjective and to externalize it also is subjective. So I just feel like some part of it is just externalizing it, release the load on your like conscious brain. Yeah. And so I feel like it's useful that really reminds me of one of the conversations my grandmother and I had my father's mother and I were very close and she was like, I was very close and she passed away when I was probably 10, I would say maybe 10 or 11. And I remember we were in India in Punchill Park and she was like, we're both lying on the bed and some reason it came up and she was telling me that it's like very important to believe in something
or because there will be things that you can't rationalize your way out, right? And so she's like, you just doesn't matter what it is, but you need to believe in something. I don't know. So I was kind of reminded of that when you were talking just there. Yeah, it is. It is that except with creative process, but I personally feel about it the way I feel about religion. I knew you were going to say that. Go on. Which is like, I'm okay with the randomness of it. And I'm okay with the distress that accepting the randomness causes, right?
Like I'm not saying that, oh, I am like above everything and I'm Buddha and I'm like, life is random, be at peace. And no, I'm not doing that. But like, there's a certain degree of like sadness that comes from things being random and out of your control, because you are like sort of seeing the edges of your humanity. And I think I'm like somewhat okay with that approach. So my father was just visiting us for the last four days and he and Divya really connect on this aspect of their personalities. It's also very much like, yeah, it's fine to have spirituality because it's like a thing that makes people feel better.
But he's like, I am fanatically atheist that we have this. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I think whatever my degree of atheism was two weeks ago, I have 10 eggs straight in the last week. For some context, I had to go back home, there was a death in the family and we had to do like, you know, some rituals and all of that. And less annoying were the rituals and more annoying was people's attitude towards the rituals.
And it's like, oh, this is how things must be done. If you want peace for the person who has died. And this is how this must be done. And this is that must be done. And it just felt like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? Like to yourself, to other people, like, I don't know, like I just realized that it's very much that Plato's allegory of the cave where people are so hell bent on just seeing the shadows on the walls of cave and saying that this is the reality.
And like, I'm okay with them believing that I guess like, can't change other people's minds. But I came out much more atheist than I went in. And I thought that I was pretty much top notch atheist. I don't know, I feel, you know, I have different views about spirituality than you, but I do look at those ones. And I really just wonder a little bit about how much they helped people process in the context that they were designed.
Right. So, you know, when you have a traumatic event occur, your ability to process is some amount, right? And so some amount of the trauma often won't get processed right away. But by having these kind of, you know, more drawn out things, where hopefully you're building some resilience from these rituals. And even if there's not, like, it's just giving you also more time. So instead of it being like one day and now you go back home and you close the door and this is thing, you know, and there's this big gaping hole in your life.
At least there's like this extended period where you're almost like ready to go back to your own life. Right. It makes it a weird thing where you're almost instead of like being resentful of having to go back to a life with that person missing, you're almost like ready to go back to at least some semblance of your life before because it's so disruptive. Instead of it like it makes it into a huge thing, whereas it otherwise can just be this so sad thing where it's just like suddenly this thing is gone, person is gone, you know.
I also feel like I like most things. It's one of those things where like if it matters to you, it works. Like if you believe in it, it works more effectively. Like it's true for medicine also, right? Yeah, for sure. If you believe that the medicine will work, the efficacy is higher, which is just so weird.
But yeah, it is a thing. Yeah. But I think it also has some aspects of like fitness, right? Where it's like as long as you just do the things, it will deliver benefits for you, even if you're not fully present, even if you're not fully understanding why you're doing it or what you're doing it.
Like that's what I was going to say by just like making such a big disruption in people's lives, even if they don't care about the actual rituals that are being done, it causes an effect. And it just makes your mind kind of almost crave the normalcy of life before and be willing to tolerate some degree of discrepancy from that. Whereas otherwise the discrepancy would be that this person is just missing
and there wouldn't have been like this period of almost like communal suffering to kind of show the grief of that person that they feel for that person. So that's what I mean. Like I'm sure for some people it's effective. I'm just arguing it's 20% effective, even if you don't believe.
So I doubt that it is. So for example, like in Hindu rituals, you have to burn the body and at some point you sort of break the skull because the brain is in a casing and it wouldn't burn otherwise. And they have attached like, you know, meaning to that. So I was meeting two friends who also lost their dads relatively young after this entire thing was done.
And they were both like, oh yeah, you know that meant something and they are not religious. Like both of them are atheists. But they were like, yeah, it meant something because it helped me see the body as a body and not as my father. But like I did not feel that way when I saw the ritual being done. Right. I was just like, what is this?
So I don't know, like maybe there is some symbolism and some meaning to some people and like none to others. That's where I'm at with it. I don't want to believe at the point, but I'm just saying that I feel like even if you take all the rituals out of it, just the communal presence of like having everyone together, having this big disruption to everyone's routines. Right. Like I think it creates a like our saying right a craving of normalcy for your mind wanting to go back.
And it just makes it it makes the adjustment something from an experience to real life versus it being like life just carrying on and the adjustment being that person not in the life. Do I mean, still don't believe it. I'm having a hard time sort of buying into it. Part of it is also because I feel like we've had these sort of like surrounding conversations around the idea of rituals in life and in existence a couple of times.
And I personally just feel like I don't think I relate to the power of it. Like I relate to the power of my own rituals. Right. Like, oh, I have to get up and I want to do this and I want to do that. I don't hold a brush and I want to draw like I get the power of that, but I just don't get the power of communal rituals. Like, oh, people are coming together to do this.
Like I've never really celebrated festivals too much is the food part that interests me. Well, think about the kind of rituals that like make that would help create in companies. Yeah, but I was fascinated by them. I wasn't like I didn't get it. I was fascinated, but I didn't get it.
Megan, I was one of our early interviews. I think season five, if I remember correctly. Season four. My goodness, was it season four? Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I feel like I've been trying to see if I can do more of that kind of notion of saying like, you know, can I feel the yes in my body or feel the yes and just more than cognitively rationalizing it. It's been interesting. It's been not that easy for me. The facilitator who I had learned this kind of technique from was saying, it's this notion of kind of being very present in your body and then asking it, what do I need to know? Right?
Or show me what I need to know. Right. And then just kind of being aware of what sensations or kind of like images come to your mind or feelings. Yeah. I think that and also the notion of like, when you do feel these kind of like more anxious or more unsure about things is trying to ask yourself, what are you trying to protect me from?
Which is a very much like an IFS kind of thing in internal family system. I have a question actually. What made you go down that path? Like what made you, A, think about it right now as we were discussing the ideas of collaboration and competition. And what made you go down exploring the idea of like outside of yourself, existence of creativity or forces, both of those things.
So like what right now and what overall? That was a really mean question because you know, then I try and like trace back out, which is not the thing I'm best at. Right. So I'm like, wait, what were we talking about? Why were we talking about spirituality?
Were we talking about spirituality only after I brought up the idea of music, which was the first one. We were talking about spirituality because you, but you did say that like, you know, the idea of like creativity and music being outside of you and you're just channeling it. So the reason why I was asking you that first part, which was if you felt like this was like a whole body, yes, was because I was curious about just like, I don't know, just making processes. I feel like as I'm getting more exposed to these things, I think we are realizing more and more that we bring this belief that everyone makes decisions the same way as we do. Right.
And it's just very interesting to me to understand when, when speaking from about things that seem to truly matter, right. And especially things that are about art and about things that are about fulfillment. I feel like it comes from like this certain place of like a more a less cognitive place. And I was kind of curious because at that moment we were speaking about the fulfillment that you got from the podcast and where these kind of like notions were coming to him for you. So I was kind of curious about like, where did you feel like that was coming from?
Like, was it a was it a place that you felt like, yeah, you know, this is like, yes, I feel in my body. This is the right thing for me. Or was it kind of like, oh, you know, this is more a rational sort of thing. And then it seemed like you don't really distinguish between them. It was from your answer.
I feel like oftentimes rationality is like a backwards reasoning. So we feel something and we figure out reasons for it. Like very few situations are so unemotional for us that like we would be able to say, oh, I just think this. You know what I mean? Like we don't just to think about things ever.
So like clearly if I have chosen a life path and I've chosen to go in a certain direction, it is because I feel very strongly about it. I just feel like I don't feel the need to assign that emotion to coming from outside of me. Sure. But now I would go back to saying, fine, so keep the muse notion aside, but even just this notion of like feeling something is right for you in your body. Yeah, it feels different.
Like as different from just thinking this is the right thing. When you know it versus when you know it. Okay. Like, you know, sometimes you get it and sometimes you just like, you're like, yeah, the facts are in front of me, but I still can't. You know, it's one of those things that like everybody knows they should work out.
Everybody knows they should eat well. Everybody like, but they don't do it because somewhere inside they are not an internal alignment. And so I do agree that there is such a thing as like, you know, emotionally getting it or like internalizing something versus rationalizing something. I know that there is a difference in the two. Yeah, that's what it sounds like you're saying.
I don't know if I feel like that's the difference I'm trying to say. Like there is internalizing and there is rationalizing for sure. Do you are saying like if it comes from a place of reverence or calling? No, well, it's like when you like an environment, when you're first experienced to it before you even fully cognitively processed it. There is some internal resonance with that thing.
Yeah, that's not really like internalizing or rationalizing. It's this kind of. Okay. Okay, maybe that's that I can work with. And would you say there's some things that you like cognitively right and some things that you have like internal resonance with and then when you're making art, do you feel like that's more things that you're finding resonance with or more things that.
I just don't need to find what's underneath that. It's not like one cognitively likes the medium and then one finds resonance with the piece. It's a component of both. I don't think I can make art if I don't have both sides. Trying to do that would be kind of like trying to say that like my left leg wants to go somewhere and my right leg wants to go somewhere else.
And like, no, they both have to go to the same place, right? They can be like a little bit further apart from each other, but like this only so much far apart that they can be from each other if you have to exist in one place. I think why I find it so interesting and I feel like I keep coming back to these notions in different ways is because I think I'm not very good at it. And I feel like I have some dissidence between trying to rationalize what I'm finding resonance with and what I'm cognitively liking. So like one of the things I find very hard is like taking my work beyond a certain point.
I think because it requires like kind of more alignment in these different parts of me. And so instead I'm just like, oh, I keep putting off like spending the time on it. It's very frustrating. No, it's very true also because like I feel like it also doesn't stop like it happens every time you want to take your work to the next level. This was a term that I recently in one of the yoga practices that I did the instructor used where she was like when discomfort arises, I ask that you invite yourself to stay with it.
And I just like really loved that freezing because I feel like a lot of times at least for me that's what's happening. Like there's discomfort and like, you know, maybe the two parts of my brain are not in alignment with each other at this point. Like initially they were like, la, la, la, la, let's do this thing. But then like, you know, some point in the middle one wants to go to left and another wants to go to right, right. And then I feel like I have to be like, okay, but it's fine.
This is like, you know, sit down and let's do this. So yeah, like I hear you because I feel like every time I want to take the work further, it's like, it's almost like, you know, you have family members and you're like, oh my God, now they're going to fight. Now the situation is arising and they're going to fight. And I'm going to be miserable because they're going to fight. I feel like that's how I feel about those kind of things within myself.
Yeah. And I feel like the way I've solved for it today isn't the best because I've like negotiated certain things where I'm like, oh, I'll learn Catholic, but I don't have to perform until I feel ready. Right. So then I'm like, I've assured that part of me that's very nervous about performing that it doesn't have to do it until it feels ready. Right. It's hard though, right? Like finding that balance of when you are coddling yourself versus when you are. Like I was thinking about this in like another context as well.
How do you even push your work to the next level? Because like, I don't think the critic who's always like internal critic who's always saying this is garbage, this is garbage, this is garbage. Everything you do is garbage. I don't think that's pushing anyone to the next level either. But like there is some awareness of, oh, these are the areas that I can improve on.
And then I want to put effort in those areas as well. At least from where I stand, it's not easy, but I feel like it's important to do that to grow. I don't know how, but like I just have that internal sense as we were talking. Like it's important to go on this path. I don't know why.
Well, I think in some ways that's what kind of connects us back to where we started from, right? Which is I think that's why having it, how into people that challenge you, both, you know, whether it's in a competitive or a collaborative way. Right? That does push you to grow. Because it depends, right?
It will be all different motivations. You know, for some of us, it'll be these are people who respect and you want to keep like earning their respect. Some people, it'll be like, oh, these are people that I enjoy thinking with. And it's just the process of kind of thinking about things over time will continue to push your thinking forward, especially when people hold slightly diversion opinions.
Do you feel like you've started to find that? Like I know you have in certain, like I would feel like in your work to an extent and like in your friends that there's interesting people that you kind of push your thinking forward with. Do you feel like you started to find that as an artist as well? Not yet. Like I feel like I have had a inner some sense that like I need to find a more artistic community,
even though most people around me are very creative. I feel like there is something about like an artistic person's temperament, where they are somehow searching for some inner truth. And I feel like I need more of those people around me. And like I've been having those conversations of like, how do I get an artistic community?
And it's just not like, I know it's not a functional solution. It is something beyond the functional. It is something beyond whatever I usually would deploy in these kind of situations. One of the books we're reading this semester is a collection of essays that are written by a bunch of different authors, there's going to be like 30 or 40 different essays.
And some of the ones I've been reading have been about the notion of community and people have been defining it in different ways. And then it's just been interesting to me to think about how once you have a group defined in order to create a community, right? Like it's going to want to continue to exist. And there's always an us versus them as soon as you start to create groups of people. I don't know.
So it's actually, to me, it's like kind of an interesting notion that I feel like I might start to explore in some of my own work. Like what is community? When is community always good? When is community, right? Like, and just been interesting to kind of realize, I guess I thought it was always going to be some big thing, right?
Like I'd feel like, oh, now I have found the calling that I am so excited about writing about, right? Yeah. And I just wonder if it's more going to be like, oh, I feel like these kinds of things were a little bit interesting. Maybe I'll explore some aspect of them, you know? Yeah.
I personally, from my life experience, feel like it's almost always the second. Like it's like, you know, how good relationships are not built on love at first sight, but often they are built on like, you know, slow. You can have attraction at first sight, but like you have to put in sort of consistent effort and care and love and a lot of respect and attention into the relationship. And over time, that's how it becomes something great. You need the right seeds, but you also need the right sort of, how should I put it?
Like what comes out of a seed? Small plants. I don't know. Babies. Seedlings.
Seedlings. Oh, oh, I see. Like you need the right nurture. Just naming types of small creatures. Yeah, I could see that.
Right. Like part of I think what's helped me grow so quickly in the last six, eight months in my kind of like artistic purview has been someone curating the content that I'm consuming and kind of being able to have a platform to kind of deeply engage with the content, which I think are the kind of two things you need. You need input and you need like to actually spend time with the input. I don't know. Do you feel like that's accessible?
I don't know actually. It probably isn't. Why? Why what isn't accessible? I'm just being able to have consistent input and time to engage with those inputs over an extended period.
Life. As you like for me, possibly I'm just replying generally. Maybe I didn't understand your question. No, I would say because you were saying that you feel like you're still kind of searching for those artistic community and I feel like the thing that's helped me find it has been that a little bit early start feeling like I'm starting to find it. It's been just having consistent input for an extended period.
Right. And like in the beginning, it wasn't so much even though now I would think back about some of the early things I read even a little bit differently. I feel like I've learned to think about things a little differently. So I feel like I have it philosophically, but not artistically. And I don't have the words for what else am I looking for as well.
So like until I find it, I'll keep throwing spaghetti on the wall. I know if there's an equivalent of a book club for visual art, but right. Like if you had something that was kind of like a book club for visual art, right? Right. I know that I don't want any of that, but I don't know what I want.
But I know that that form feels off. What if you wrote about art like on your substack? I mean, I am writing about it. Yeah. But like what if you wrote more about specific pieces?
Right. Like maybe like one category of posts you did would be like about if you want to compare two pieces or if you want to just look at two pieces by the same. But I don't want visual artists only. There is way too many things. I don't think so.
Like that's also another thing. I think like could be sound, could be music, could be very. No, no, no. Right now, whatever this thing that I'm trying to look for, it's in the state of when you soak the grains, then they need to be ground up and then they need to be fermented. And then you can think about how to cook it.
Right. But like where is the soaking the grains the stage? So it really wouldn't look like a linear path to that because I've had these conversations with people like every solution that says, oh, here are people who kind of do the similar things to what you want to do. Like maybe you'll find your people there. And I feel like that's not what I'm looking for because those people I already have.
Right. Like you are there. Like my sister is there. Devan is there. Varun is there.
Like they're so many like everybody I work with. I really respect them as creators. I really respect them as professionals and I really respect their thinking process and their philosophy and their ability to show up for work. Like those things I already have. So I don't know what I'm looking for.
So I'm feeling fairly chilled about the fact that like, you know, oh, the grains are soaking. They're gonna suck. Maybe you need like a frenemy or like a rival. Who knows? I mean, like so many of the great artists, like they have these rivalries with other artists, which kind of like drove them to be not so many, but some of them.
Yeah, I also feel like there are people who are driven by spite and vengeance and I'm not one of those. Like it really makes me think like, oh, I want to go away from this situation. Thank you for thinking with us. Visit thinking on thinking on the web at joyous.studio to get show notes, past episodes and transcripts. Before you go.
Can you do me one small favor? Go online right now and share the episode with one person who you think would love it until next time. Bye.