In the final part of our conversation about figuring out the story, Kahran and Divya get to the bottom of it all. How to actually create a story that people care about? The answer? "Find out why you care about this"
In the final part of our conversation about figuring out the story, Kahran and Divya get to the bottom of it all. How to actually create a story that people care about? The answer? "Find out why you care about this"
Stories are how we make sense of the world. We don't experience life as data points — we experience it as narratives with beginnings, middles, and emotional stakes.
The most powerful stories are the ones where the teller is willing to be changed by the telling.
So I think something I've gotten a lot of feedback and I'm pretty confident about is I'm very good at introducing myself in certain structures, right? Like, especially in one-on-one meetings or when I'm meeting someone in a corporate context, I'm very good at giving an introduction.
So I'll give you a little bit of how I would give myself an introduction and then we'll see, right? So I started off by saying that I grew up in Seattle, I started computer science and economics in Boston. And after that kind of went into tech, but mostly stayed on the product
side of technology initially. And then I'll usually pause to understand if people like, because product means that you're working for the company, right? So everything you own is owned by that company. Whereas then when you, I went to services after a couple of years at
that point, almost all the work you do is owned by the client. It's kind of just a fundamental difference in technology. Um, and then when I started my career, I started off as a product manager and the product managers at that point had responsibility both for translating what the, the client was looking for, as well as for the timeline.
So as well as for the ship cycle. And then as transition, as the industry has changed, the, the role started to change a little bit. So you saw this growth of scrum masters and more agile methodologies. And then that part of it, responsibility for the development cycle, move
more into the dev team and the less out of the product teams. And I kind of moved more towards marketing as that transition happened. So once I had a couple of really cool projects where I did some, some in London, some in Germany, some in New York, and then kind of that took me to India where I was working for an ed tech company.
Eventually became CEO of that ed tech company and then spun out one part of it and then actually shut down the rest of it just before the pandemic, which was kind of like a big thing. And depending on how the conversation has gone at this point, I might go into more about like, what does it mean to shut down a company or some different
parts of it? And then would come to say that, you know, and then I spent some time kind of figuring out what my next move was going to be. I started a venture capital firm called Thrice Monos Capital. I also then really found that what I loved and the thing that the work
that I really found that I really loved was client work and that I really missed was doing client work. And so when I met Divya, we had an opportunity to start a consulting company and then that's really been the place that I spent a lot of my energy and time, but I also have some other things I really like to do.
So I spend about 50% of my time on Julius, but then I spend some amount of my time with my investment company. And also I am doing an MFA and in poetry and creative writing, which I'm going to complete next year. And I'm also learning Indian classical dance, which are kind of two artistic
pursuits that I'm very excited about. See, but you sound so cool. And I also realized what the problem is in how I do it. What? So I feel like when I was listening to you speak, I could actually tell the
why behind everything. And when I talk about these things, the only thing, like if I'm giving so one, I don't like to take a long time giving my introduction. Was that a long time you think that I took in when I gave that introduction? You took enough.
It feels like a long time to me, but I don't know. You took, you took long and it was so rewind. A lot of times when people are like, you know, we need to, like, you know, when we are doing product design solutions and like, you know, a client might say that this needs to be shorter and lesser clicks.
I always try to tell people that like, it needs to be interesting. People need to be invested to click through. Don't just reduce clicks just like that. But I think I'm doing that thing a little bit. Like, you know, I just want it to be short so that they don't have to read it.
I'll listen to it. But in reality, it's more that like, when I was listening to you, I could understand why. So when you said that I started joyous, you have already sown the seeds of why client work is important to you.
Right. Like you did that early on. Like the only thing that I'm able to do it with is why I'd make games. Like I think there's something about the emotional tone of when I start talking about them that comes through that I really care about it.
But I think in a very weird way, my introduction is very guarded. So I'm not letting people see why I care about it, which makes it very hard for them to see why they should care about it. Look, I've never even when we were speaking to our client in lay and like, you know, when we just had our call last week with a new, like, you know,
team member from their side. That's what I felt when you introduced yourself as well. I was like, why does this sound so much nicer? And like now that like, you know, I'm re hearing it and actually just focusing on you, I can tell why it sounds so much nicer because there is like enough.
So there is enough conceptual white space to transition from one thing to another. And you still don't put everything like you never said that you are trained professionally as a chef. That's true. I did the was a job.
And I don't, I didn't really talk about right. Like, yeah, I left some things out. This is where I would adapt the story depending on who I'm talking to. But those are like, you know, the theme lines usually. But also I feel like content wise, sure.
But I also feel like just conceptually you have more of a why do I do these things or why did I take these parts very? Yeah. Like even when people ask me why did you shift from physics to design? I don't have a good answer for it.
Like, sure. I like, you know, flunked a bunch of courses and I knew that I can't do physics all my life. But like that's that could have been so many other things. Why didn't I go into coding and why didn't I go into XYZ?
Right. Like part of it, like I still sometimes there are so many parts. Right. Yeah. But that's like someone asking me, why do you write poetry and not write like a play?
Correct. Correct. Correct. But like I was like, I do. But I don't think.
Correct. But my introduction does not communicate that I care about design. Nothing about how I frame it communicates that I care about design. And I really do. Like the precipitous moment was that I took a course in visual communication
and the first class I come back and my brain is like, oh my God, everything we remember, we remember because somebody thought about it. Everything stays like every poster, anything that you think is good. It stays with you because somebody is trying to communicate to you beyond the words. I mean, that was your answer right there.
Right. Like that is so compelling. Like that is. Yeah, but but I don't say this. Like I like I just said it for the first time in my life.
Like immediately reminded me of, you know, the same story of why Apple had farms is because Steve Jobs took a typography class at Reed, you know, and he was like, oh, my typography is so beautiful and dropped out. If I remember quickly, I think you only went to like two of the classes. Right.
Yeah. But it's yeah, but it mattered, you know, and I think feeling you say that about visual coherence, visual design coherence. That's what you said. Visual communication.
Visual communication. Right. Yeah. That's what the design courses in India are called in a lot of cases. Like graphic design courses are called visual communication.
Yeah. But like, I don't know. And the fact that he started from showing MC Escher, who was both a mathematician and an artist also like made a really nice bridge for like, you know, somebody again, the prof did it because he was like, OK, you know, all
of these STEM kids, I have to give them some in here as a mathematician who drew art and like, you know, made these beautiful things and like played around with our sense of perception. But like, this is such a pleasant thing. I don't even.
Yeah. Like, I'm not sure why this is reminding me of this, but I remember when I was in maybe 11th standard, I was taking, I must have been AP chemistry, which I was very poor at of all the sciences chemistry was the one I struggled the most. I think partly was at that point, I had not been diagnosed ADHD.
And so sitting and memorizing things was so hard for me. Like a spelling until I just eventually like saw enough words, I could just spell a spelling was impossible, right? And I never memorized the periodic table despite taking like four years of chemistry. Like it's astounding, you know, just certain things were so, so hard.
And chemistry is very difficult to get a good grade in if you don't know the periodic table. But we had the same teacher for chemistry and physics. Mr. Heil. Wow.
And Mr. Heil told me, I remember at some point I'd asked him for a recommendation for applying to college. Mr. Senior year. And we were talking about like what I wanted to do.
And I was telling him that like, I really enjoy like creating like writing, right? Like creating fiction. But I feel like there's so much love I have for the sciences. I'm like, I do feel like the sciences are like where I should go. I can't quite remember, but it was interesting because he highlighted for me
who he's like, there's authors like Michael Crichton who like have written things that are fantasy and are science fiction, but they're deeply grounded in real science. And he's like, that is an opportunity and a door that could be open to you. And I think it's just, it's interesting.
I think the reason why it stayed with me for years, even though I haven't really gone down that path is because that's these notions of like the story is not. We look at the story as having sharp edges, you know, and having like that, you know, you're this thing or you're this thing. And it's so much it's like how you tell the story, right?
If I tell the thing that I'm deeply passionate about is the science, but what I want to do is write, like there's a way to make that story come, you know, like there's the way I told it to him where I said I want to write, but I'm deeply passionate about science, right? Like there's a way where then it leads you to saying that there's an
outcome that's possible for you. I think it's just the more you can kind of share to the person who you're engaging with, the more they're able to, it depends on whether you're problem solving or not, but even just giving a good sense of yourself, right? You can, but giving what your drivers are, that gives the flavor to the things
around it, even when they feel like they don't align, right? Even though it felt like I was telling my professor, my science professor, that I wanted to get a recommendation from Dupai to like, you know, science colleges, engineering colleges, that what I really want to do was to write by telling him that I had this passion, he was able to see that there was a way to
tell this story that still made sense, that resonate, that connected with him and resonated with him in a way that he could play back to me. That was interesting. And, you know, 30 years later, here we are. So I wonder if, yeah, maybe this is an insight that we've
been 20 years later. First of all, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Bye. You can't, like you can't mess around with a decade.
We are not that old. I mean, you remember, I just did that before we started the podcast, where I was like four episodes, 10 episodes, what's the difference? You're like, double man, double is the difference. No, that makes sense.
It also is making me think of another thing. So I think a part of it is also, I don't like holding or rather, I think I like tension in this tricato rhythm, which is unexpected, but I don't like conceptual tension. So I think I try to organize my thoughts in a conceptually coherent, like
non-coherent, conceptually non-tension way. So the automatic is become this happened and this happened and this happened and this happened and this happened and this happened. There is no, there is no, like, you know, up and down and like, there is no that movement.
Why I'm thinking about that is like, I don't let the story sit in the discomfort. So I never really talk about how lost I felt for that one semester when I didn't know what to do. I knew I don't want to do this, but I also didn't know, like, because if today somebody sees, like I was talking to my therapist about this and like, you know,
she was saying that, you know, if somebody sees your list of what all you've done and what all you do, they would be impressed. General reaction would be, this is, this is good stuff. Yeah, basically good stuff. Right.
But she was like, but how do you switch to something else? And like, there is this discomfort of, like, because I know that, like, as I try to embrace more and more of my artistic self, I know how much misery I'm feeling these days, right? But like, I know that the way I will fold it in my story is I would remove this
misery, which means I would also remove the path to get there. It's almost like, you know, I've put a ladder, I climb somewhere and then I remove the ladder so then people can only see and like, oh, somehow she got there. But there is no way to see the ladder. And like, I know this is like a very...
I think that makes sense. No, it does. I understand what you mean. It's, it's, it's kind of the story that people are always telling about, like, when people aspire to be celebrities, right?
That like, there was a, there was a whole path to get there. And you are just seeing not even just one aspect, not just an outcome, but you're also only seeing one facet of it. And I think in some ways you're telling the story in that way. Yeah.
Yeah. I also feel like, so I have generally hated training montages or training like training montages in films, training arcs in anime. I'm just like, what is this? Why are you wasting time?
Let's get on with the fight. Okay. Wait, what? Oh, I see. Like Dragon Mausie, I feel was infamous.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, what are you doing? Just get on with it.
How do you feel about an entire episode of powering up out of curiosity? And let's be honest, Dragon Mausie had an entire season of powering up. Like I'm, I'm still remembering. Now this hair is going up. It's only turning yellow.
Basically. Now one more hair is yellow. But I feel like in a weird way, I think in my own self narrative also, I am erasing that part. Like it was only recently when Aditi mentioned that, actually mentioned something. And then I remembered that like, how brutally I used, like it was the worst
I could design in my class, in my batch, in my college. Like in terms of people who wanted to do any visual work, I was really at the bottom tier. Like I didn't, like I was never trained. I was not in a big school. Like I was not in a big city.
So I wasn't really ever like, yeah, like everything was self learned, which at that point, like considering neither of my parents are artists was not grand. But like it was really hard. And how I solved it is how I solve literally everything I would come back from socializing. At like, you know, 11 in the night and I would sit down on Photoshop till three in the morning
every single day and just make stuff. Wow. And at some point I got better. Damn, where did I find all you people in my life? My husband is also this way.
He's just like, what do you mean it needs to get done? We'll just do it an hour every day until it's done. And I'm like, of course. Like at least I know that for myself. I don't know any other way.
I'm just like, okay, this needs to be done. I need to get better. Like, you know, even in the arts and stuff, for more context, I'm like applying to a lot of residencies these days, like a lot of different artistic residencies with different projects. Like I don't have any artistic mentors.
I'm not from a design school or an art school. I don't have a big community of artists around me. I don't know these people. I don't know anybody in culture sector. How am I going to get in?
I'm going to keep trying until I get in. And once I get in, then I am in. This is a very interesting realization. I may have to like, this may be like a slight reach, but we're going to go with it. So I feel like this brute force method is at odds with what I'm trying to say.
Okay. Because I feel like what I'm trying to say is that I'm finessing the story to give you enough hooks that you can come in with it me, but I'm not trying to give you everything, you know, and I'm trying to give you enough hooks that I feel like I'm giving you places where it shows the depth, right?
Like you could ask me about like, what is the transition that happened in technology? Or if I had mentioned, you know, that like I ended up like leaving after my project with McGraw Hill, right? Like then that's usually another hook where it's like, oh, what did you do for those six months when you were trying to figure out what you wanted to do next?
Or what does it like to shut down a company, you know, or to like write poetry or write? Like there's all these different little hooks, but they're more, it's more of like a finessing sort of thing. Like I'm reminded one of my stories that my dad told me when I was young, this like again, always stayed with me is like, when he was interviewing at Microsoft.
So at the time he was working at Texas Instruments, and this may have been like 86 or so. And he flew to Seattle. And then when he was also a classic, my father's story, Pratheep Singh, like this is how we love to operate. So he gets to the airport and he's like, okay, I need to understand this company.
So he goes to the like, whatever newsstand is there and buys all the magazines that mention Microsoft. And he reads every single article about Microsoft on my airplane to Seattle. And then when he goes and meets this guy, I think it was Jeff Rake, so I'm not mistaken. He's like super blown away because he knows everything that there's been current
about Microsoft and super top of mind. Right. Now, did he know the whole thing? No, he knew like what they were right now thinking about. Like he made that little targeted intervention versus kind of saying, I'm going to build
the broad base of knowledge that would really be how I would necessarily maybe excel. Right. But he used the fact that he had a smaller motivation and a targeted motivation to kind of go deep into a certain aspect of it, which is how I actually learn things also. Right.
Like I'm much more, I will much more find things to sustain like initial motivation they have for an extended period and then find something else to do that versus trying to kind of do something that will, I will try and sustain just alone for the whole commitment. So that's why I do much better with like workshops or structured courses.
So I was like, oh, I'll register for this thing. And I know that once I'm doing it, I will do it. Trying to say, oh, I'm just going to do this thing for six months is hard. But trying to say, oh, I'll do three workshops over the course of two months and they'll be super intense for 10 days.
That's fine. I hear you. I also think though that like there is another subtle thing that you're doing, which is like, you are in tune with what is interesting about your story very well. And I'm not.
I don't know if that's true. No, the way you articulate it, it is like the things that you're saying, these are little books, you are figuring out what are points of curiosity. How many times do you think you've introduced yourself? I don't know.
Yeah, I think that's probably hundreds. Probably closer to like 500. Yeah. Right. So I think you also, whether you're acknowledging that or not, you also have gotten
these subtle, these feedbacks. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure like I'm not saying it's an information problem. I genuinely think it is like I'm not, I'm being stupid problem.
As in like I'm just not looking at the data or like the information that is coming in from the right lenses. So if I've done something, how would I put it? Right? Like so I've applied to 12 different residencies by now.
Okay. Every single time my introduction as an artist becomes stronger and I know much more about what the artist me wants than what the designer me wants. And considering that I have 13 years of experience being a designer, I really should be better at that one, but I'm not because I just having to pay the kind of care and
attention that I'm doing with these. Oh, like what are the themes and I'm re like I'm engaging with again and again. Why do I like these things? Because the applications are forcing me to engage with those questions. So then I realize it's about perspective and like, you know, how are things being
looked at? What is ignored? What is seen? Like these are the things that I'm caring about. And so like, you know, I can also frame all my artistic projects like that.
But because I don't know what the design, I haven't paid attention to what the designer me wants or cares about or thinks about. I haven't, haven't found that. I was thinking about how I got better at it. And I think a big part was when I was CEO of it, the next I did 40 of them, right?
Like I did, I had one on one with everyone in the company and I introduced myself each time and then I asked them to introduce themselves. Then I asked them if they had done their job before, if there was anything that they thought we should do in our company for their role. And then finally asked them if they needed anything to be successful.
Like it was just these four questions. But I had a feedback every time, which was I wanted them to give an introduction that they wouldn't normally give, you know, like normally when people give introductions, especially some people who have not like, right, like they maybe have gone to government schools in India and they haven't been put into
situations where they've been asked to explain their history like that. It could be really helpful if I gave this kind of like more grandiose sort of right, like really like because it inspired them to introduce themselves in a certain way. So I got the feedback every time was I giving the introduction that was reaching
the goals I was setting for myself. And then I think that let me reach something which now I feel pretty happy about, right? Like I like the way I give that kind of introduction. I still don't do it well when I only have five seconds to give an introduction,
but I can give this two and a half, three minute introduction that is kind of fun. And I like it. I feel satisfied with. So I'm wondering, is there a goal that you could be putting and a goal of a similar flavor, not a goal of like dependency on, you know, what I'm saying, like not a
goal of like being dependent on them being like you can't giving the right tidbit, but that you're helping them see something. Okay, go ahead. Think that like if I was to structure it, I would probably structure it around the idea of like there are these pivotal moments which can be seemingly very inane,
but like they can really change the course of your life. And you'd like to know that it's about people. Like that's what is interesting to me. So like, I don't know if you remember, but like when you first told me about that you took, like you went to the French culinary school, I had a million questions
up and you were like, Oh my God, who is this crazy woman? What is she? Was it a first conversation like on my outdoor round table? No, it was. I had arrived early and you were cooking something and then you were giving
some geeky knowledge about what you were cooking. And I was like, this, this seems like a little, how do you know about this? And then you told me and then I was like, whoa. But like, you know, I just feel like, I feel like that's what makes us special. Like that's what makes everybody special.
How we choose to react to those moments and those things. Right. Like I feel like I find people's sharp edges very interesting. So maybe then you know what you're trying to do. So you're trying to solicit those sorts of responses.
So much better maybe to go first when people are giving introductions. Yeah, yeah. Because now like looking from that lens, I'm also thinking about like, you know, what would framing thinking on thinking in a way where it's like, what comes up when you think about thinking?
How do you think about like, you know, that question of having the listener engage with their own thinking and examine it. Like to me, that would feel like, oh, it's a really good goal. Interesting. That reminds me a little bit.
Some of those early episodes we did like that, that one about kindness and niceness, I remember people messaged me and they were like, I thought about kindness like this or something, you know, because it did it. I think because we had so much uncertainty when we were talking about it. It kind of came across in a way that was very accessible to people to be like,
oh, I also kind of have this uncertainty. Is it a kindness to do this thing? Yeah, I also think that like there was something I also really liked that conversation. I know that like my friends have also referred to that conversation. In our conversations.
And it's like, I think there is something really accessible about everybody can think of not everybody has thought about storytelling, but everybody can think about introducing themselves, right? Like we are all telling stories all the time. It's a little bit like when somebody says I'm not creative.
I'm like, are you not making friendships or conversations or jokes? Like, of course you are creative. All of us are creative. But like nobody frames it like that, right? Interesting.
Yeah, I guess it's one of the most accessible ways of making storytelling feel real to people. Right? Like it's obviously your introduction is a story that you're telling two people. Also, it is storytelling. And also I feel like maybe and I don't know how true it is, but like I'm partially
psychoanalyzing myself, but I think it just felt a little hollow when I would try to talk about myself because like it didn't feel like I believed in that story because I was removing all the emotional course from the story. And then I was like, you know, there was nothing left if I removed all the emotional course.
But like now I'm not doing that. Right. Like with this new frame, I'm excited to talk about it. Because those are like important. Like if I'm just thinking about like what were the critical moments which
communicated my values and how my value shaped my path. Like that feels interesting. Right. Like there were the moments when you chose design, the moments when I mean, I guess when you met me, I remember the moments when you built your first game, maybe with
your sister. Yeah. Yeah. They honestly like both working with Charu and like, you know, meeting you because like we had known each other so little, like we had met a total of like five times.
I had recommended you to a project though. Remember Sreeta and I recommended you to that yogurt company, the milk people Basta Farms. So we clearly had some like good sense of you because I remember Sreeta asked me if I knew any designers and I told her you, but I didn't really like, like I
didn't recommend you, right? Like I so clearly we didn't know each other that well. Yeah. And also I feel like, no, I mean, like for me, I had friends I had known for a decade plus who had asked me if I would want to work with them.
And I was just like, like, you know, as a co-founder and I was like, no, like, I remember how shocked that he was when I told her I'm considering and then she was like, wow, he really must be unique and different. I was like, I agree. Worked out.
I still agree. I think we all have to. Yeah. In certain societies, it's very much so. Really?
You think it is societal? I think so. I think the, how, um, counterculture that desire is looked at is very societal, obviously, whether it's cultural or not cultural. You know, I am really tempted to do one of those things that we did in our early
seasons and be like, well, this would be a great topic for next time. Well, it would, but I feel we should still continue next time. And so now we've given the framing, right? Of yourself and how do you think about yourself? But I still think that the question you postulated that we haven't fully answered
because you were saying it now, now you know that how you want to tell the story of you, but still now how do we bring that to your work? And how do we get your work in front of an audience that is an audience that is more resonant with it? Right.
Cause I think the problem we're solving is not just how do you feel better about your story, but how are you getting the resonance that you feel your story deserves? And, you know, forgive me if deserves this baby too strong. But I feel that at least how I've internalized what you're asking.
I agree. We should not just brush it like it's done. It's over. I agree. It's it's just first step taken.
But yeah, okay. But we should still talk about uniqueness as a cultural value. Yeah. Because I feel like that would also be something. Okay.
Okay. I'm excited about our next time. I'm excited. I don't know. Like I feel mixed about our next time's conversation.
Bye.