Thinking on Being Successful with Samhita Arni

Samhita Arni has multiple professional identities including writer and psychotherapist

Kahran: Do you think you could give a little intro, about who you are and where you grew up and, how you came here?

Samhita: Sure thing. Thank you. M I'm Samhita Arni. I have wear multiple hats professionally, but I consider myself primarily a storyteller. I've written four books. I've worked a bit in the film industry, written a, tv series in Afghanistan and a film. And I also studied to be a psychotherapist for now, four years. So that's sort of my bundle of professional identities. I also teach. And how I came to be here is. My father is actually a spy. It's true. He is a spy. I'm not lying about this. He used to work for the indian intelligence, and I grew up all across the world, in Indonesia, Pakistan, which is a big one if you're the daughter of an indian spy. Thailand, and, did college in the US and in schooling and a bit in Italy. So sort of from all over the place, I guess that's who I am. I have this very complicated professional identity, which is many things. I also have this. I feel more and more, as I grow older, really getting in touch with this kind of transcultural identity I have. I'm indian, but I've also got this sort of multicultural background and experience, and I really. That's becoming more important to me as I grow older. So I guess that, in a nutshell, is who I am and how I came to be here.

How did you get settled in Bangalore

And I know, Kahran.

Kahran: But you're settled in Bangalore. Yes. You do know Karen. How did you get settled in Bangalore? I don't think I've ever asked you that.

Samhita: Because at the end of many years of sort of living this nomadic lifestyle of growing up in different countries, I really wanted to set down roots, and I really wanted to stay in a place that I could feel committed and connected to. It was very important for me. And the place that I came up with was Bangalore, because, my father had grown up here, and, his family is from here, so we have a lot of, you know, extended family. And I'd come back here quite often on, vacations, but also because my grandmother was here. And at some point, my grandmother started to have Alzheimer's, and I decided that the thing I wanted to do with my life was to move to Bangalore and look after her and, you know, just spend those last few years of her life with her. So I ended up living in Bangalore for four and a half years, and then I just decided to stay on.

Kahran: Well, wow. And so your brother didn't, the family came after you? You were the first one.

Samhita: Yes.

Kahran: Wow.

Samhita: Yes. And they dislodged me from the house.

Kahran: It's very sad. I've never.

Did you feel conflicted about your identity as an indian growing up

And then did you feel conflicted about your identity as an indian when you were growing up?

Samhita: Very much, which is one of the reasons I wanted to come and settle in India. And this decision to live here in Bangalore was important because I don't have that conflict anymore. And I'm able to reconcile the. This Indian and this growing up across the world. But also being indian aspect, I felt very conflicted about it, particularly as someone who was writing, even as a child, about indian mythology, indian culture. I think the reason for that, that was the desire for that connection, for that identity. So I was writing about it in order to make it my own. so I've always been dealing with that also because I speak English, you know, and English is the language, I think, in. English is the language I write in. English is the language I breathe, the language I work in, as a writer. So sometimes, you know, we're really dealing with these hybrid identities where I always feel like an imposter, particularly coming from Bangalore, you know, because this is supposedly my hometown, where my family comes from. I'm supposed to speak Kannada. I can't speak Kannada fluently, so feel like an impostor. I mean, actually don't really speak Kannada. I communicate to auto drivers in Kannada. Somehow, mysteriously, it happens, speak English, I speak a little bit of Hindi. and weirdly, I can read ancient Greek, so it's. Yeah, I guess we all deal with this kind of anglophilic, westernized mindsets.

Kahran: It's just really interesting talking to people about issues of identity. this podcast season, and I don't know, it's something that I really struggle with. I think especially I've been doing this thing called the artist's way. Have you ever heard of this book by Julia Cameron?

Samhita: Yes, I have.

Kahran: Have you done it?

Samhita: I tried to. I still do sometimes the morning pages, but I don't do the other stuff.

Kahran: Yeah, okay. But you, like, you did the whole ten weeks somewhat something interesting. But did you feel like. I don't know. How did you feel while you were doing it?

Samhita: I feel like it's good as a brain dump. Like, there's a lot that just like, is stuck in my head that I'm able then to also understand how I'm thinking. But I started, so I kept that morning pages routine and I've done it on and off for a couple of years now.

Kahran: Oh, wow.

Samhita: So it is. Yeah. Maybe it does work, because I do. I am more in control of my thought process now. Yeah.

Kahran: Do you feel like subtle changes happened in your life after you started them?

Samhita: So I have been doing something else which is really interesting, which is, Aira Progov's depth journaling process. And I feel that has opened up a lot for me. Ira probaf, it does this journaling workshop thing. And he's a depth psychologist, I think, based out of New York, early 20th century, mid 20th century. I'm not sure exactly the dates, so I might have his dates completely wrong, but he developed a journaling method, that utilizes a lot of depth psychology in it to also create, you know, sort of communicate with one's own unconscious and, create a narrative for one's life.

Kahran: Wait, can you. I don't. What is depth psychology?

Samhita: Oh, like jungian analysis? Yeah, it's, depth psychology. We have depth in our psyches.

Kahran: I could think of that also as psychotherapy or that's like applied depth psychology.

Samhita: Yeah. Yeah. So it's a very psychoanalytic kind of way of working with them.

Kahran: Oh, interesting.

Samhita: So I found that has opened up a lot because suddenly there'll be these insights and then things do kind of work seamlessly. Yeah.

Kahran: How cool. Yeah. I don't know.

Jack Kerston feels like he should be a disciplined, regular person

Did you always have a journaling practice or did that start at some point?

Samhita: Not really. I feel like I should be this disciplined, regular, consistent person. So this is an identity I grapple. I really aspire to be this disciplined, routine oriented person who has a journaling practice. But no, I've had one intermittently through the years, but not a regular one.

Kahran: Say more about this. How come you feel like you should be a disciplined, routine person?

Samhita: Isn't that what we're all supposed to be? I don't know. I feel like the challenge in my life, and I guess maybe this is also something about coming from a creative background, but also having to fit into this regular world, and often with this corporate world is you have to fit into structure. So my difficulty is creating enough space in my life that I still feel the freedom to be creative, but also work with these structures and deadlines and all of those sorts of things. And routine would really help with meeting some of those deadlines and goals.

Kahran: It's interesting you say it like that, though. So it's not like you feel like you need it to be consistently productive, like, having a consistent level of output over time, or is that what you're saying? And I'm just putting in different words.

Samhita: So there are times when I'm incredibly productive and there are times when I'm not. I realize that I have to make my peace with that, but I don't know how important productivity is anymore, actually.

Kahran: Yeah, I feel very similarly, actually, because I think, something I've also struggled with is this notion that I really work in bursts and kind of just being okay with that and not being frustrated with yourself in those periods where you're like, why am I not being productive? Why do I feel like I need to lie down? Like, what is this? Because I think there's this idea that when you get to a certain level of seniority or a certain level of success that you, I don't know, you become more superhuman almost, right? Like, you become. You have this. You just do great things all the time. I don't know. Do you feel that way or do you feel like that's.

Samhita: Yeah, I guess I do feel that way because I think I constantly, you know, people constantly project this idea of success onto me, and maybe people, I mean, my parents, but people think I'm successful. And I actually don't always feel successful because I'm not able to always cope with the challenges, or really rise up to them in the way that I wish I did. Right. Like, you know, be that superhuman person who's managing all of these projects is a great leader and a great manager. No, I'm actually not one of those things. I'm really, especially now, I think over the last couple of years, when one has been sort of put in leadership positions, I'm really struggling with it.

Kahran: And what it means that's so interesting you say that. I mean, at least, you know, as I think about people in my, even my greater community, I think of you as being one of the most successful, especially at bridging that gap of being able to be true to your artistic self, but also be building a career and not even building a career in something that's totally unrelated. Right. Which I think some people do. but that's so interesting. What do you feel like would make you feel successful? Or are there other people who you feel like are successful that you look at? and like, what is the aspects that they seem to have that you don't feel like you have?

Samhita: So I've actually been thinking about this a great deal. The kind of people that we hold to be successful in our contemporary culture. Right? You look at all of these business tycoons and leaders, and I don't think they're successful. Or at least, even if I achieve that, I wouldn't consider myself successful, because I think there's a lot of prices that one has to pay. And also considering whether the trade off is worth it is part of it. So I'm also. I don't know what success is. Sometimes I just think it's value creation. I'm coming more and more to the idea that it's not only creating value for yourself, but creating value for others. And if you're able to create value in other people's lives, that is success. Whether you're a teacher, whether you're a janitor, whether you're a tea shop owner, and you're content in that and you see the value you are creating, then maybe that is success. I am still grappling with seeing that for myself.

Kahran: So I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but, last summer, I went to this, poetry workshop, at the Jack Kerok school, in Boulder. And, I did one of my first poetry readings, or my very first poetry reading. And I put it on Instagram. And later that year, I was at New York Pride, maybe, I don't know, like a month or so later, and this guy ran up to me and he was like, are you a poet? I saw your poetry on Instagram. I just want to say it, like, really touched me. And I was so taken aback that I, like, didn't even. I mean, I gave him a hug, and I don't even know what I said because it just really was so. I don't know. I didn't quite process what was happening at that moment. Now, since then, I kind of forget about it a lot. Right? Like, it's not right. It's not something that ever comes top of mind to me when I'm struggling, like writing something or thinking about it. But, I mean, to be fair, I mean, if I think I feel very similar about success as you kind of just described, it's like, well, you touch someone, so isn't that success? I don't know. Do you feel that way? Like, I mean, you must have touched people through. You've done so much work that you produced, and you've touched and you've made, and you've.

Samhita: And I'm lucky to have had that and lucky to have felt that.

Samhita Arni: Sometimes we forget about the impact we make

so, I mean, when you were talking about that experience, I suddenly remembered something that I had also completely forgotten, which was, like, last month, I was in some event, and some girl came to me and she said, are you Samhita Arni? And I said, yes. And she said, you know, your book, really, the fact that, you know, it put her on some sort of career path, and she really liked illustration and design, and it made her aware of that and helped her explore it. And then she became a designer. So she sort of felt that she owed that part in some way to some seed I had planted through one of these books I written.

Kahran: Wow.

Samhita: And I felt like at that point, I was grateful to her. I'm thank you for telling me this, because I'm just coming out of this moment where I'm, like, struggling to understand whether I'm contributing to the planet in any useful way. And thank you for giving that to me. You know, like, I feel like, okay, I've done something, but we forget, and we really forget about the impact that we're making in other people's lives. I don't know whether the thing is to remind ourselves of it. do we take time out every day and remember, okay, I touched that person. I touched that person. I touched that person. I don't know. Because sometimes you also need to fill your own thing to keep going, right?

Kahran: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that's something Julia Cameron talks a lot about, in the artist's way. Right. Is this notion that, like, you know, every few days or every week, you need to go and fill. Fill your cup, right. Take your little artist for a date and go and do something with them. do you incorporate that idea at all? Do you, like, take yourself out for artist dates ever?

Samhita: I do push my boundaries. like, I will try to do things that I haven't tried before. I think that is the stuff that I really need to keep doing for myself, that's what makes me feel alive. I think what Julia Cameron is also talking about is introducing something new into your life. So you're constantly creative. A little bit of.

Kahran: Yeah. But also, I think just some things that, like, sometimes what you need is reassurance, not necessarily novelty. Right. Like my artist date this week, I went and saw the Beyonce movie. just because I find her so inspiring, you know? And I find her, willingness to kind of keep dreaming bigger always, like, so inspiring.

How would you introduce yourself today? And has that changed

as you have kind of changed careers or thought about. Have you thought about yourself differently? Like, how. How would you introduce yourself today? And has that changed?

Samhita: I. Yeah. You know, I was having this conversation with my mother because, so many people, we, identify ourselves by what we do. And sometimes I'm like, I do this, I do this, sometimes I do this. But really, all of these are ways so that I can kind of sustain myself and keep going and have some money and have some extra money so I can have some adventures. So I think that's how I introduce myself. I started off in life as a writer, and that's what people know me as. And I've tried to parlay that into different skills and areas. And basically, all of this is just to keep my life interesting and make some money and have some adventures and meet interesting people. That's my identity.

Kahran: So it sounds like your identity is around searching for adventure and enabling that search.

Samhita: one part of it is, I think there are many things, right? And the problem with identities is, like, I think we're always in the quest of something singular that we can say, this is who I am. I am, a rebel who is also a leader and an artist, right? And then it makes perfect sense about who we are. But I think in our own heads, these parts are separated and different. Right? There's a Sam who wants adventure. There's the Sam who wants to be committed and routine oriented. And then there's the Sam who likes to write. And then there's a Sam who really questions whether writing is the medium to get in touch with people today and really connect in a country like India, whether it's really that effective. So there are, And then there's a Sam who likes to teach and wants to pass on her skills and whatever she's learned, but. And then there's Sam, the person who's been a teacher and taught and all of that, and seen a lot of her own students go through trauma, has been through her own trauma. So suddenly, in the middle of this, decided to go and study psychotherapy. So it's just a muddle, this identity.

Kahran: And then do you feel like you try to nurture, like, all the different parts? Like, if you haven't taught for a while, will you try and find something that, like, satisfies that part of you?

Samhita: Yeah, I think the thing that difficulty is balancing the hungers of all the different parts, and, yeah, definitely. Like, this week, I taught again, and I know that for a friend of mine who is a teacher and very close friend, she's kind of burnt out of teaching, and she says, I'm done with teaching. I'm done with teacher training. But then I walked into this session, and I don't actually know what any of the people walked away with that was really useful for them in their teaching careers. But I had so much fun doing it, and I'm trying to make it as relevant as possible to that audience, but it's also about my own satisfaction that I just get from being in that space.

Kahran: Does that relate back to your notion of success? Do you feel like that is something that makes you feel successful, being able to feel fulfillment in that way?

Samhita: I don't know what fulfillment is entirely. I know it when I feel it. But I guess fulfillment is also that sense of, okay, everything that I am, I'm bringing to this moment.

Kahran: You must feel fulfillment when you, like, create, like, finish a work, whether it's a column or a book or, I don't know, maybe like a movie, like something. A creative work. Do you feel some sense of, like, oh, this is done. I feel I've done my. Done right by this.

Samhita: I mean, there is a contentment that comes after you like, okay, that draft is gone. I've reread it. Reread it? Reread it. It's been copy edited. It's going to print tomorrow. Okay. You're like, phew, done. Relieved. But the truth is, the book continues or the piece continues even after it's published. Right. You meet people. They'll challenge you, and when you start speaking to them, you will also get certain insights about their own process of writing, ways in which one could have developed a character, all of that. So I feel like the process is actually not over for me. When I publish or put out a.

Kahran: Book, will you continue to rewrite it or even for your first books, you'll still think about it, like, oh, I could do this thing differently.

Samhita: Yeah. And that makes its way into a new book. Right. So, like, definitely there's a part of my first book that I want to rewrite, and that's actually turning into a couple of chapters in a new book. So that is something that's happening.

It's interesting also how I asked you a question about success that became an answer about inspiration

Kahran: It's interesting also how I asked you a question about success, that it kind of became an answer about inspiration.

Samhita: Yeah. I think also inspiration is a relationship between people, like, particularly. Okay. So sometimes there'll be something in my life, and I'll be inspired by that. And if that inspiration sticks, I write a book on it, or I write a book that's built around that moment of inspiration. And in this case, I have my inspiration right in front of me to remind me every day for the last five years about this book that I'm writing, which is this, young girl I met in Madurai, who now must not be a young girl, she must be a young woman, and I have not met her again. But there was this moment of connection we had, and, she's become part of me, and that is my source of inspiration. Right. That's. She is my muse, in a way. This is why there's a couple of pictures of her here up on my wall that I see. And so she's my source of inspiration for this book.

Kahran: How interesting. So this usually happens for you, that you'll connect with someone or something.

Samhita: It's different with each book. I know that the last book, the last book that got published was, like, it was a relationship that was the source of inspiration, and that I really built the main character on was this relationship that I had had with this person who had then left my life. So, you know, bad love affairs are always the best thing to, like, turn into a material or fodder for one's creative process.

Kahran: So Taylor Swift has taught us and many before, but I think it's in.

Samhita: That moment of writing that you experience that intimacy with that person or that connection that has left from your life. Right. Because you have to, like, I broke up, didn't speak to this person for years, but, you know, because of your writing it, and you feel like you're writing this book as an ode to the character, you so completely internalize what you liked about that person that you become that person only.

Kahran: Oh, how interesting. And when you say that, do you mean you become the person you were then, or you feel like you become the other person, the person that I.

Samhita: Imagined, the imagined lover, the imagined girl that I've met. Right? I've met them short periods of time. Relationship lasted six months, but I spent four years writing that book. So, yeah, there was a lot, you know, love is also an act of imagination.

Kahran: That reminds me of someone I met once, and it was about six, maybe eight months. And, I think he was, like, actually a sociopath. He was my downstairs neighbor when I owned an apartment in Seattle. He had, at, one point, a key ring with his keys on it, and there was four engagement rings on it. And I asked him what they were, and they were boys that had proposed to him. And he said he kept them to remind him of his. I never forgotten that line. Right. He kept them to remind him of his sorrow. There's just, like, what it was a level of sort of like, I was so intrigued by it, and I still am, in some ways, so intrigued by it, because it's kind of callousness. It's kind of. It's just like a different thinking about emotions than I'd ever encountered before. And it was so intriguing to me. Like, I was just like, how. How do you operate? because for me, it's so I operate in such a different world, that it's so hard to imagine kind of operating in that world.

You define yourself more as a storyteller than an author

Samhita: So I have to ask this question because you have now introduced this very interesting character, into our conversation, who I don't know, but now I have to know a few details. And the thing is, so he felt sorrow at rejecting these four potential marriage partners. Is that what it was?

Kahran: I remember him explaining to me how someone had proposed to him in Edinburgh, like at the castle, while there were fireworks. Somehow the stories would always kind of be there, right? Like they never would end. You would ask a question like that, but you would never end up in that answer. I don't know. It was, Okay, wait, though, I'm going to bring you back, though, because I feel like we'll again say that. I feel like you didn't quite answer my question. so as you kind of think about how you've introduced yourself over the years, so there was a time you introduced yourself as an author. Is that fair?

Samhita: Yeah, yeah, I did. but I would say I would be more of a writer because an author is like a status you get after youve done something, but a writer is the continuous act of doing.

Kahran: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thats a really beautiful way of framing it. Theres, like, some instagram meme I feel like I saw over the years, which its like, you know, a lot of people want the noun but dont want the verb. And I feel like thats kind of captured in what you just said. Interesting.

Samhita: I now define myself more as a storyteller. I moved away from writer even to thinking of myself as a storyteller.

Kahran: So now you feel like you're not as constrained by words?

Samhita: No, I think even conversations, even performances, we're always telling stories, right? You just told me this fascinating story. So you are also a storyteller. I'm just professionalizing it.

Kahran: And then, as you were kind of saying a few minutes ago, do you feel like you live at the intersection of these identities, or there's kind of this core identity, which is, I'm a storyteller. And then there's these things that spring forth from there.

Samhita: I don't know, because the more and more I delve deeper into my identity, it just. Then I slip into some other level, and then I find that that identity is. Also doesn't exist, and I slip into something else. I mean, a storyteller is definitely part of who I am. But I would also say that for me sometimes, because I've done, you know, psychotherapy and psychology for the last four years, the healing is a huge part of, also what I would like to make my identity as in being.

Kahran: Healed or healing, like. Like the action of doing it or the. The state of being healed.

Samhita: I both. But I do feel like, one of the things I do with mythology, with stories, with fairy tales, is I'm trying to retell them in a way that heals myself. these are the books that I would have wanted to read as a child, as an adult, especially as talking about a relationship to culture. So I'm writing these books for an alternate, a younger version of myself sometimes. But that is an act of healing for myself, and hopefully might be an act of healing that I can offer others.

Kahran: So do you feel like that's something you could achieve and would make you feel successful?

Samhita: Can you achieve healing?

Kahran: Well, no, I'm saying when you kind of, like, frame it in that way. Right? When you're saying, like, I want to create these artifacts that I wish had existed when I was young, that would have kind of been these benefits to me on this journey. Like, you can do that. in some ways, you have done that. Does that make you feel successful? Or is it kind of in that same thing? Wherever I. We were talking about a few minutes ago, you feel successful for a moment, then you feel.

Samhita: When you said that, I was like, yeah, I've done a lot of that, but I don't feel successful. I don't know. I don't know what I think. It's also this. We're living in a very complex time there's so much that's problematic in the world also that we're seeing, that we're witness to, that we're living through. It is hard to feel successful, at these moments, I believe, particularly when, you know, constantly, every day, you're sort of seeing a lot of mental health challenges. And the work that I deal with is culture. So, I mean, I don't think that mental health is. Mental health has a huge cultural component, because a lot of the issues that create these situations are systemic. so it's hard to feel successful. Maybe it's a perspective. Maybe if I switched my perspective and said, hey, I've accomplished three things today off my to do list, I would feel successful. But I don't know, maybe there's also a part of me that. And this is. I'm thinking this thought for the first time, that it's okay to feel unsuccessful and to want to yearn to do more.

Kahran: I'm struggling with accepting this transition where you feel

Kahran: Have you ever thought about these notions of, like, good fuel and bad fuel? Do you feel like that applies in.

Samhita: This situation, the kind of harmonious passion and the obsessive passion?

Kahran: Yeah, I think, Samhita usually talks about it more clearly. I was hoping, but I think I love that, actually. That framing. Right. Kind of just the notion of, like, you know, some things, they'll give you energy, but is it. Is it a destructive energy over time? Right? Will it kind of, like, eat away at you or, you know, there's kind of other places that maybe can be a more sustainable, source of energy?

Samhita: Yeah, perhaps. I mean, I'm also sitting with myself and trying to understand where my. My own sense of a lack of success is coming from. And I know that, part of it is also being a 39 year old woman in who's. And the fact that I can live singly and support myself in this choice is perhaps a sign of success. Perhaps a success. But at the same time, I feel like I'm going against. And I guess you must also feel this, Kahran, that we're sort of breaking away from so many cultural norms. It's a fight also, you know, it's a fight in my head every day to respect myself. Even now, you know, I'm sort of discussing with my friend today. We're both showing the signs and the symptoms of perimenopause few years earlier than expected, but making this transition into a different life, one where one is not, you know, one. We have all of these ideas of what menopausal women are like, but it's this other life transition. And there's this tendency to look at menopausal women and say, what worth are they contributing to society? They're not reproducing, blah, blah, blah. You know, there are all these fears that are coming up in my head even as I explore this notion, which are completely false. Completely false. Because the human civilization has evolved because of the labor that menopausal women can do in terms of child rearing, in terms of nurturing, in terms of being present as grandmothers, one of the few species that goes through menopause and one of the most intelligent species. There's a relationship between that process. But in my head, because of all of this cultural conditioning, I'm still struggling with accepting this transition where you feel.

Kahran: Like culturally, you should have been married before now.

Samhita: I should have married. I should have produced children. And did you want to have children?

Kahran: Do you want to?

Samhita: No. I mean, it was a conscious choice. I love children. I have pictures of them, and I am inspired by them, and I write books for them. But, I can only do that because I don't have them and I don't have to be a parent. I can just be their friend.

Kahran: Yeah, but you still feel like even though that wasn't a bar for success you put for yourself, you still kind of feel it. Is that. Am I saying that back? Right.

Samhita: Yes. Because I think I live in a society where I'm still judged by this.

Kahran: Right.

Samhita: I meet a person on the street. I meet a person. I'm constantly meeting clients. are you married? Do you have children? No, no, no. And you can see the thought process arise in them.

Kahran: That's so interesting. For many years, I've always felt like the first thought people must have when they meet me is like, oh, he's gay. And then they would think less of me. It was very hard to kind of realize. I don't know. I mean, I still don't always realize, but I. To realize, first of all, that not everyone has that thought, and then not everyone has the subsequent thought. And in fact, there's a whole plethora of, starting thoughts, and then there's a whole web of expansion places that the thoughts can go from there. And I've managed to zero in on one starting place and one follow up. Right? Yeah. Just when you were saying that, it reminded me of it. I'm not sure if I have any insight to share there, but it just.

It was so interesting to come to your commitment ceremony, actually,

Samhita: It was so interesting to come to your commitment ceremony, actually, and to, you know, because I said I felt like what you were doing was also redefining, in some ways, the role that making a choice of committing to a partner can do for one's own sense of self and how that expression, of self can be a courageous act. It can be an act of self expression. It is an act of love as well, because you're building this, actually quite, you know, I feel as, when I see your life together, it's this very adventurous life together. So I think for me, it was also this moment when I suddenly said, wow. I mean, gay marriages have so much to offer the institution of marriage in reviving and renewing this institution, otherwise, because otherwise, marriage is about children, domesticity, settling down, living a, like, you know, paying a mortgage on a house, buying a car. And what you did was completely reinvent it into something fun and something about oneself and about the person one wanted to be. So for me, the success is you. Just, like, I would see that. For me, that is you just doing that, realizing that, celebrating that, sharing that, that, to me, is success.

Kahran: Well, yeah. And in my mind, right, like, I feel that whole YouTube, know, four day extravaganza was really successful, right? Because I kind of both felt like I had something to prove where I wanted to kind of show that, you know, we could have as big of a wedding as anyone, even though we were, we are gay, right? And, you know, we were having it in India, which is not a place that has a lot of big gay weddings, especially that are not celebrities, right. Most of the people who I see getting married in India have these really small ceremonies, like, often in Kerala, and it's like, it's very beautiful, but, you know, it's like, why not? Why can't we? And I really feel really happy that we did, and we did very successfully. but I think also a big part of it was that I wanted to create an experience, right. and I wanted people to walk away with a certain feeling, and I think that was really successful. and it's unfortunate sometimes to prejudice your feelings of success based on other people's takeaways, because it doesn't give you, you know, you only have so much control over that. And I think in some ways, what you said a few minutes ago where you were saying that I'm not an author, but I do the act of writing, and that's kind of what I feel like is successful. I don't know. Or maybe I'm kind of leading you there, but I feel like that's. It's nice if you can focus on the verb I feel like something I did. Cause I feel like you seem to share some of the perfectionist traits that I think I also, and I think something I did over the years is I just expanded my tolerance. Bandaid, where I'm like, well, this might be a b sort of work, but that's okay here, because I realize I'm never going to be able to escape from feeling like things need to have a certain level of quality. But maybe I can just bring down that quality bar a little bit so then I can be a little bit more comfortable in saying, like, okay, fine, maybe. I don't know. I'm trying to think of a good example, but the only one I can think of is like, fine. Maybe your reception decor isn't quite like where you're hoping it to be, but if you focus on that, then you just detract from your overall enjoyment, because you can find things to make yourself unhappy about. But I don't know. There's also going to be the kid that ran up to you on the street because they heard you reading and it made them really happy.

Samhita: I think for me also, the idea of success is more and more like community as well. I think so many of this past generation, these high achievers who just sort of skyrocketed out of everyone's grasp, you know, and we look up to these people, and now, I believe more and more, like, success is also something that we have to bring others along with us. Like, how is my success meaningful for my students, for example, when I'm a teacher? How do I channel it in ways? It's also a platform for them. I think that's when my success feels meaningful. So I think when you also, you know, you and Gaurav got married and you shared that, that was deeply meaningful for me because it showed me it was a very powerful declaration of another path and another way of being, just another way of framing a relationship. Forget, you know, everything else, but just that. Love can be an act of self expression, and also the community that you brought together around that to celebrate that, right? There's, Huge power in that. You know, when you celebrate things, those memories remain in your brain. You build on those moments.

Kahran: That's very powerful, I think. Yeah. actually, my dad and I had a conversation kind of on the cusp of my wedding, and it was about how a wedding is one of the few times where people will let you take them on and experience really kind of blindly. Right. It's like, whatever you want to do for this period, we will do it with you and there's almost no other circumstance where you can just kind of, you know, and like you're saying, create almost a formative memory for someone that they didn't really have a choice in that creation after someone's no longer a child. You know, once people are adults, they remain with a lot of agency generally in their lives, which kind of is a roundabout way of coming to a point.

You've always defined success around agency. So does that definition resonate with you

I wanted to ask you, for me, I've always defined success a lot, around agency. And I think the thing that's helped me feel successful is the fact that I feel like I have agency and I have a lot of control over my time and how I want to spend it. And I think even I could extend that to what you were just saying right now, that I think being able to create optionality for people, being able to give them agency, is a nice way of, I don't know, adding value to their lives. And I almost would kind of even add another facet, which I think when you have agency, you're less reactive a lot of the times. Right. You're less often in situations where you don't have time to make a considered decision. Right. You're more able to have the time and space to think about something before you react. I don't know. So does that definition resonate with you? How do you feel?

Samhita: Yes, I think that that actually makes a lot of sense in terms of success, because I do feel like maybe in the last couple of years in my life, I've really gotten to that place where I can afford to wake up and spend an hour thinking about a problem or an issue or explore an emotion that I'm feeling and solve it or integrate it or resolve it in some way. And I did not have that freedom early in my life. and I can see the difference it makes to my own growth and evolution. so, yes, definitely I have the agency to choose how I spend my time, the agency to prioritize growth and development over, say, finances or something else of that nature. And that, I think, is a great value. That has great. That is maybe, perhaps that is success.

Kahran: You say it like you don't fully believe it, though. A cognitive yes, a tentative emotional yes.

Samhita: I think I feel the pressure to do something big with it. I guess if I really, deep down try to think, I'm like, you know, to feel successful, I have to achieve something huge. But even as I say, I mean, I don't necessarily believe that that's a mark of success.

Kahran: I mean, you've written best selling novels like, you have done huge things.

Samhita: But that was, like, ten years ago, or 20 years ago. I don't know. I can't count. but it was a while ago. But the thing is also, like, the journey is not linear. First two books, extremely successful. Third book, I don't think anyone has heard of it. Fourth book, did decently, but not to the same level as the other two books. Right. And there's a part of me that wishes I could just say, got bestseller after best seller. Each one did better than the rest. And that's not true. My journey is more of a graph, an up and down kind of graph. And there is value in that journey because it's obviously part of that is happening because I'm pushing my limits. I'm trying out new things, I'm going down new paths. But it doesn't always feel successful because I'm also comparing it to a previous benchmark. But perhaps I should let go of.

Kahran: I feel like I finally have started to understand what you were trying to say in your mind, almost. The desire to be successful is a motivation, perhaps.

Samhita: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And I'm something I fight against because I'm like, if I. If I just want to be successful, if I just want to hit that achievement level, right, okay, write another book, then I'm just going to repeat the wheel. I'm just going to keep doing the same thing that I did over. I can write another children, you know, but I want to do something different because I want to also express who I'm growing into and becoming in my work. So if I don't do that, I stifle myself. But if I go down that path, it doesn't always lead to the kind of recognition that compares to the recognition I've gotten for previous works.

Kahran: And, like, what if you did, I don't know, something that. That didn't have the same barometer that, I don't know, like, some more niche work or something. Would that feel differently? Do you feel?

Samhita: So, I think when I broke away, and this is when I decided, okay, like, I'm trying out a new career, so I went and became a teacher, and I feel. I loved teaching. and I was very loved by my students. But it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm, like, the best or most effective teacher. But it was a very enjoyable experience, and it still is.

Kahran: Wait, wait, wait. Sorry. I'm gonna push back for a second there. So you. And to remind our listeners, right, the context of the indian education system is definitely not one where most students love their teachers, but you managed to create, like, a very positive educational experience for this group of students. But why did you say that you weren't this sure you were a good teacher?

Samhita: I like performing in the classroom. so sometimes it becomes about me. Oh, well, I think. No, not just that. Actually, no. I give my students also the space to perform. They like that permission to express themselves. One of the big moments of wake up calls in my life was, when I was teaching a class, and it was called, learning about love, romance, and living literature. I mean, so we were reading all of these, love stories, actually talking about them in really interesting ways. Like, so we read pride and prejudice and talked about economic inequality. And then, you know, you get your students to reflect on, okay, do you see this in your patterns of relationships? Right. And how do you deal with this question of income inequality in your. In your relationships and your gender roles? And so does a, Had a fantastic time teaching that class. I loved it. But I was also this very lenient teacher, right. I wanted my students to like me. So I remember, like, when we had to have an assignment to all of my students came in, and some of them hadn't done it. And so I gave them, like, this, said, yeah, yeah, you can turn it in by the end of the day. And then I turned to one of my students, who's just sitting there looking really sad, and I said, you know, tell me, why are you looking so sad? And she says, you know, I woke up at 04:00 in the morning to get this done on time. I made that sacrifice, and now you're letting everyone else off the hook. And it was this moment wake up call for me, because I was like, I need to encourage that behavior of that girl who wakes up at 04:00, in the morning to turn something on time, because that is going to enable her, success later on in life. And I can't just bring everyone down to the same level. So this was another moment where, like, oh, my God, I need to, you know, get my act together. So that. That was. That was a wake up call moment.

Karim: Shutting down a startup is an incredibly hard decision

Kahran: Now, I know what. What podcast episode to recommend for you. We did one on niceness, versus kindness, and I feel, that is a really beautiful example of it. Right. Sometimes the nice thing to do is not the kind thing to do.

Samhita: No, I'm realizing it more and more. Like, even, you know, when we were talking before this. This podcast about being a leader and a manager, actually, sometimes a manager has to be a very not nice person.

Kahran: And sometimes that is the kind thing to do, right. Because I think one of the hardest things I had to do was when I. When I shut down Vidya next.

Kahran: I think it was not a nice thing to do, right. Because there were people who had been there for 13 years, but they'd spent 13 years there, right? And it's like if you're spent 13 years at a startup that's kind of been failing for that long, and it just has investors willing to kind of keep bankrolling new, ideas. The problem is you're not growing, right? You're not growing as a person in your career, you're not building new connections, you're not getting somewhere, right. And the reason why people choose startups like that is because they think they're going to get a disproportionate payout at the end of it. But when it's clear you're not getting the disproportionate payout at the end of it, it's not the right thing to do to let someone continue in that situation, even if they want to. Right. And then maybe, I don't know. I mean, I know I have a little tendency towards, I don't know whether to call it authoritarianism or just this kind of idea that you might be able to make people's decisions for them better than they can, but sometimes I think you have better visibility and knowledge. Right. And information sharing is not perfect and. Right. So, yeah, I don't know. I think shutting down with the next was a very difficult thing, but it was, in the end, the kind thing to do, I think, for everyone involved at the time. Of course, four months later, we got a pandemic, so who knows what have happened? Edtech did very well in the pandemic.

Samhita: But, when I hear you say that, I think it's also about leadership. you know, choosing to shut down a company is an incredibly hard decision to make. Even. I mean, I can only if I put myself in your shoes. And to imagine what that must have taken for you to admit, hey, this company needs to shut down, but impact people's lives. I'm still going to make this decision, and I still believe it's the right decision. That's what a process that is, what a journey that is.

Kahran: Yeah. And my father was chairman of the board. It was his. And his. And his friends had really kind of been funding it for years. and even after everyone else had kind of lost faith, my father was the one who really had faith. And I think to kind of, you know, have that conversation with him that I did not see a path, and I did not think he should keep putting money into this company. Yeah, it was an interesting one. I think it took us a few years, actually, to kind of, like, really get over that and find a new place for our relationship, because it wasn't that he was upset, but I think I. There's still words we haven't said. Right. And I think words that are unsaid kind of fester, until they either kind of become a place where they don't matter anymore or, you know, you finally actually deal with them. I think in our case, it reached a point where it didn't matter anymore. but, yeah, it definitely was a point in my life, for sure.

Samhita: But I also admire you hugely for that, Kahran, to, like, have been able to do that. Like, it's because I meet so many founders in Bangalore who are always trying to talk about their previous startups as these great successes, even though they had to shut them down, down. This authenticity, this honesty, but also this thing of seeing the hard stuff that you had to deal with and how that impacted all of your relationships, and that's huge.

Kahran: Yeah, yeah. And I think also all the things you don't really see, right. Like, my father doesn't really hang out with the, people who were on that board of that company as much anymore, and those were some of his closest friends. Friends. And I always felt like I took that away from him. But I think something that happens when you are someone who really prides yourself on agency and thinks about agency a lot as a barometer for success, is you can sometimes take on too much agency. Right. You know, people make their own choices, and sure, we can create scenarios, and we can try and smooth the path or make things easier in different ways, but at the end of the day, people are making their own choices, and they will continue to make their own choices, whether. Whether you want them to or not.

Samhita: So, like, this is interesting when you talk about that, because I feel like even this concept of success applies to the story that you've just shared, which is like, okay, on one level, the company failed, so that is not a success. But on another level, for you to acknowledge these things and be honest about them is successful for your development. Right? So there is this dual notion or this more complicated idea, I think, of what is success. I mean, success is also growth of the individual on some level. So, hey, the company failed, but you grown through that.

Kahran: You could think about, like, I think we peaked at what, like, 4000 student tutor matches. Right. I think we trained maybe 8000 tutors at some point. So, like, we introduced this ideas of using technology to a large portion of at least the Bangalore tuition community, somewhat of the Gurgaon tuition community. Yeah. And those things. Right? These are the ripples that do eventually make change. It's hard, though, because. And, you know, even as I'm telling you this story, Samhita always scolds me about this part. But, like, I did. I did spin off part of the company, right? And that spin off called Quiznex did get acquired three years later. it wasn't like a huge acquisition, but. Right. Like, it did have that kind of outcome. and Samhita is always like, dude, like, if anyone else was telling this story, all they would talk about is the spin off being acquired.

Samhita: Yes. Oh, yes.

Kahran: It was four years later. I wasn't even involved. But, yeah, it's interesting.

I think holding on to success can prevent you from growing, right

It's interesting, I think, where you put the meter for yourself, right? Where you said, what was success for me? Where was that bar when I started out on this thing? and I think that's why I asked you so many questions early on, because I feel like, for me, at least, setting myself lower bars I know I can achieve is just nice. Nicer for me, right. Because I feel like. I never feel once I get there that I'm like, oh, I'm here, let me stop. It's always like I want to go to the next thing, but feeling like I've at least gotten here just makes you feel nice, you know?

Samhita: I think also, success is never a, destination, right? It's some part of one, I guess, even for me, that, yeah, I've had successes, but somehow I can't hold them with me because I've grown past them.

Kahran: Like, you're not that person anymore. Yeah, interesting.

Samhita: I mean, I brought that person, and that person is enabled who I am today. But if I can't. If I went and repeated that success, I'm not sure I'd got myself successful today.

Kahran: Well, like, some of the things that made me feel the most successful are there's, like, a few people who I know I've, like, changed the trajectory of their lives, right? Like, they've talked to me about it, about how, you know, before they met me, they just thought about life in a different way. And afterwards, even what they could imagine for themselves, had changed. Right. And sometimes that had changed in a way that now they were going in a different direction. and I feel very proud of some of those. Right. Like, I feel very proud that I could have enabled that for people like that. To me, it feels more timeless. Like, do you feel like you could shape your. Or, like, reshape your successes in a way that would feel more timeless?

Samhita: I think so. And I think what you said about, like, you know, okay. Shifting the trajectory of someone's life, that, for me, is, like, a huge success. Right?

Kahran: You told me about one earlier, this very podcast.

Samhita: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I have a few successes, but it's more meaningful than, like, say, getting X degree from X institution, at least to me. those. For some people, getting X degree from X institution is, you know, huge, given where they've come from.

Kahran: Got it, got it, got it. Ah. It's like the people who forever went to IIt is kind of what you're saying. Like.

Samhita: There is a world of them and that defines them. That's also it. Right. Because we're talking about identity. Success can limit your identity. If you perpetually define yourself constantly as a person who achieved this success, does it allow you to grow? I mean, I think holding on to success can sometimes prevent you from growing.

Kahran: That reminds me a bit of how some of the people I know later in life who are very interesting, like, even after they've retired, they often introduce themselves and define themselves, through their interests. we both have this close friend whose father, will always introduce himself, talking about what he's currently working on or currently interested in. He never really talks about. We have this company that's built its fortune in mining or that's in real estate. You never really talks about his past things. it's just so interesting. I think when people are talking about their interests, you know, it's something that you can engage with them on. Whereas I feel like if people are so much, like, caught up in their past laurels, it's like, what do you talk to them about? Like, great, I'm glad you had that successful, I don't know, presentation, book company. But I wonder also, right, if you are an artist and you're someone who maybe makes something every ten years, then it must be like that, right? Like, how do you. You still want to be respected, and you want people to look at you in a certain way, but maybe you don't have anything that you want to share that you're talking about right now.

Samhita: Yeah. And I think. I mean, I have been in those moments, but I think it's also okay not to, you know, just say, hey, I'm more interested in hearing about your story. So this is the great thing about being a storyteller, right? You can just always make it about the other person and get their story out of them. And it is interesting. It is always interesting.

Kahran: it's something Mansi talks about on the first episode this season. But she does this interesting thing when she's traveling, where she will make up a new identity, every time, right? And she can speak with the accents of a couple of different states, and she's fluent in different languages, and she knows enough about different schools and whatnot, so she'll make up a new identity every single time. And it's interesting because I was asking her, what happens if you get caught? Right? Like, what if someone asks you a question, you don't know the answer. She's like, it's fine. You just ask them about themselves. Everyone loves to talk about themselves. It's never an issue. music is by Akshay Ramuhali of Btrpt. Music editing is by beatnik.