Thinking on the Careers & Identity of Fran Dunaway & Aditi Dimri

Hi, I'm Divya. And this is. Thinking

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Karin. And this is.

Divya: Thinking.

Kahran: I'm thinking.

This week's episode explores what makes an artist and what is an artistic self

Welcome to the 36th episode of thinking on thinking. This week, we talked about our last two interviews with Aditi and with Fran, and we had this really interesting conversation as we realized the conversations about identity with these two people were very different than the previous two interviews we had. We loved exploring it, and hope you guys enjoyed this detour into what makes an artist and what is an artistic self. Hope you enjoyed this week.

Divya: So, like, when I was thinking about both of the episodes that we have done, just the one with Fran and then the one with Aditi, I felt like both of the episodes had this common theme of, like, expertise. And, like, these are people who have both, like, shifted careers. I mean, Fran is much older, so she has had more chances to jump through things. But even Aditi going from, like, you know, a researcher and an economist and then into, like, you know, working with health and now being a startup founder, like, so I just. I don't know. It felt to me, like, about expertise.

Kahran: That makes sense, I guess. I feel like you could think about it as expertise, but it's also kind of this question of, like, labels. I think it was just kind of interesting to me how Fran didn't really even seem to, like, look as much for, like, the commonality. It was kind of like, she seemed to understand, like, these are the kinds of environments that I resonate with, and then, like, I will go and find way to kind of do work in those. And it felt similar to me about how Aditi was saying that she kind of realized that her satisfaction or her sense of satisfaction would, be greater in, like, a different kind of, output, I guess. Right. Like, if she was able to kind of achieve it. So, I don't know, it felt like they kind of, like, shucked off this, like, idea of, like, you know, that there's this label of, like, oh, this is what a person does. And, therefore, this kind of, like, constrains the options available to me. It's interesting because I feel like it actually is very different than our first two guests this season who just approached the idea of identity in a very different way. I feel like, for these two, both of them just didn't really engage as much with the notion that, like, there was an identity that would drive their feelings or drive their behavior, which is really different than, I think, how I think Manzi or, computational mama, or even how I kind of really think about it, right? Or I feel like a lot of questions become identity questions. For me, it was so interesting to kind of hear both Fran and other ways show how they weren't identity questions. Even these really big questions were not as much of an identity question as you might think or expect.

Divya: You know what is interesting? Now that you say that, it's making me think about, like, sometimes you can think of identity as, like, an envelope, right? Like, almost like, this exoskeleton kind of a thing, right? Like, this has to encompass everything that I am. And in case of Fran and Aditi, it almost felt like they had an endoskeleton, right, where they knew who they are, and they just, like, moved in a way that made sense for them at whatever moment they are. At, like, at least, I don't know, like, you know, how it was when you were actually talking to her and you could see her, but, like, in France interview, I couldn't hear a lot of, like, self crisis, right. Or, like, an identity crisis based on how she was shifting between these things. Almost, like, you know, she was like water, and she was just flowing wherever she wanted to flow next. Okay, but, like. Like, I agree with you. Like, I also think that, like, my notion of identity is, like, oh, am I, like, creating enough of a base that I can step on it? Like, I can't just go with the flow and, like, oh, if it'll change, then it will change, even though I am the kind of person who tends to have very dynamic and shifting identities. Like. But, like, it will still give me crisis when I'm in the middle of it. Like, right now is one of those times when I'm like, but who am I? But what am I doing? Right? And I feel like a lot of it comes, at least for me, a lot of it comes from this notion of trying to hold identity as something other people are gonna see me as, and then they're gonna use that lens to understand me through. So it's almost like identity is an exoskeleton. Like, that's what people see. Kind of like, you know, a turtle's shell.

Kahran: Yeah. It's interesting you say that, because I feel like there's something you said, in the podcast with Aditi where you guys were talking about it in a very different context. But I think you were talking about how people have a resistance to defining pain sometimes, because even though it may feel smaller, once it's defined, then it's. It can be more scary now that it is defined. I don't know. I mean, I wonder a little bit if the way they are thinking about identity is kind of like that, where it's like they're not defining it, and in doing so, you allow it to be more big.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: It also is interesting, because just now when you were speaking, it occurred to me, you and I are both doing the artist's way, which is this ten week, I guess, like, workbook, about how to kind of find your artistic self and really unblock your creativity. And it occurs to me, I feel like both Fran and Aditya may note, I readily describe themselves as creative people or artistic people, and I wonder how much that might reflect in the importance that they give to, these questions of identity. Because one of the things that, the author in Lara Sway talks about is really kind of finding your identity. I think her name is Julia. Right. So I think Julia really talks about, like. Yeah, like, finding your identity as an artist. I just wonder a little bit. Yeah. Like, if those kind of. If you aren't forcing yourself to explore those questions, if that kind of comes hand in hand with this, like, quote unquote, creative path that some people find themselves on.

Divya: No, that is very interesting. And that is kind of true, because I've always had this notion that creative work is very self serving. Like, it's borderline narcissistic in some ways. And I'm not using that term, very negatively, but it's just like, it is very sort of inward looking, and it's like, okay, I'm gonna take up space and I'm gonna do this. And even, like, the artists way. And then the war of art, both of those books try to take away the burden of self servingness from the artistic process. But I feel like, inherently, it's just like the kind of thing where you will end up taking a lot of space. I wonder if, like, you know, just being slightly more identity focused makes you more pliable to creativity.

Kahran: Yeah, but I wonder though, like, do these, like, really cross medium artists feel that way? I don't know.

Divya: Or what about people, like, how Aditi was describing her professor, who was an, actor, and he was a researcher, or, I was talking to a friend, and he was talking about, have you heard of cohere, the AI Ah company? It's a really big AI company. Kind of like anthropic mistral, all of those companies. And one of the founders of Cohere also is, like, a guitarist in an indie rock bandaid, and he tours with the band, and my friend and I were talking about it, and I was like, yeah, almost always, like, a lot of these people who do very remarkable work tend to also be, like, creatively expressive in some particular way. Like a lot of Nobel laureates tend to be classical musicians.

How much does expressing yourself through different disciplines reflect the same thing as creating

Kahran: That's also interesting because there's kind of a question of how much is, like, how much does expressing yourself through different disciplines, reflect the kind of same thing as creating. A. And what I mean by that is. So when I draw, for example, or sketch, sometimes I can capture things I'm thinking about. But I wouldn't necessarily put it as a way I create art because I don't find it, ah, to be a way that I can express myself or create the kind of, things that I like to create. There's an idea in my head of what I like to create. And I, feel like there are certain mediums where I don't have the technical competency to do that, right. And maybe I would someday, but at least where I stand today. And so I feel like, in a lot of, like, my feelings about music, right. Like, I could. I can play the piano. I can. Like, there's certain other instruments I could play that. Like, I would feel like I can practice. And there's certain joy I find in practicing and in doing it similar to how I feel when I'm sketching or doodling, there's a certain joy I find I wouldn't take it to the extent of saying that it's a place that I created. And so I was pushing back slightly in a roundabout way on your contention that I wonder a little bit if there's, like, a certain, I would say, sure, joy, but also just like, relaxation and engaging with certain modalities, that maybe people are drawn to when their minds are in certain ways. But I don't know if that's the same as, like, being driven to create. and of course, you know, this is, like, assuming that creative is a drive to create, which I kind of just took as an axiom.

What makes it different if you're a writer or an artist

Divya: Okay, so I have a question from the first part of your statement. What makes it different? Like, so you would be comfortable saying that you're a writer if you write, but you're not an artist if you paint, what makes it different?

Kahran: That is a very good question. I think the intent. So I think, one of the things that she tells you to do in the artist's way is to take yourself on an artist date. Every week or a few days ago, I was reviewing my week, and I was like, oh, it was my first week, and I didn't do an art estate. And then I was thinking about it, and I was like, well, I actually did do some activities that could be considered an, art estate, but I didn't do them with the intent in mind. Right. It's only that I'm looking back at it afterwards. I'm like, oh, yeah, that was an activity that I was kind of, like, doing. and I did feel a certain way afterwards, but I didn't go there with the intent of saying, I'm going to go and take myself on an experience for me to grow as an artist, or to me, just feel like. I think the metaphor she uses is you're adding more into your glass and trying to fill up your glass. Right. And I feel the intent really matters because I think the intent is how you tell yourself what you're trying to do, and that's how you tell yourself that that thing matters.

Divya: That is so interesting because so, like, a couple of weeks back, I told you I went for like a two hour run, very slow, but like, it was a, long run, the longest run I've ever had. And that week I had told myself, I'm gonna go on a very long run. That's gonna be my artist stage this week. It's very interesting because, like, at the end of the run, I wasn't thinking, oh, my God, I was so slow, or, oh my God, I didn't finish whatever distance I was almost about to do. Like, I think I ran for almost 8 km, but I didn't fully run for 8 km. It's just interesting when you said that, you know, if you are sort of setting your intent a particular way and then you are going and doing an activity, it sort of feels different than if you were just doing the thing. And this is kind of like that because, like, yeah, I really did feel differently about it afterwards than I would have on a normal day.

Kahran: I mean, and I was reminded when you were talking earlier, because my husband is like, you know, he was a Fulbright scholar and he's a hard scientist and he plays the flute. But now if I asked him is that, ah, a place he finds artistic expression, I think he would tell me. He's also someone who takes a lot of self portraits, right. He uses a timer and he'll, like, kind of set up a camera. And I think if you asked him, he would tell you that he finds far more artistic expression in those, even though he never shows those to anyone. Right. Those are very much pictures for himself. But, and, you know, sometimes when he plays music, a lot of times he does play for himself, but sometimes he does play with other people. Right. But I think if you asked him where he finds, what he even considered artistic, it would be his photography, not so much his music.

Divya: And similarly, you would feel like your writing is a lot more of your creative self than your, Like, than if you were to paint or something.

Kahran: Yeah, like, I think I might. Like, when I, when I doodle, it's usually because I'm, like, thinking or, like, you know, I'm relieving some, maybe some stress in my mind, right? Like, it's, it's not with that intent of saying I'm creating something. Even when I write poetry. Interestingly, a lot of the times, it's about, like, processing something, right? Like, a lot of times I'm writing poetry on something that has been stuck in my head. I. And that's actually very different than how I feel when I'm going out and saying, oh, I want to tell this story. Like, when I'm telling a story, usually there's characters that have started to come in my head and I'm telling their story.

Divya: This is so interesting. I think that, like, I don't have a definition like that about creativity or, like, doing creative things.

Kahran: You don't feel the intent of what you're trying to do matters. It's more judged on the output.

Divya: I used to make a lot of comics, and comics, even for me now, are, ah, processing, tool more than anything else. Like, if I'm making a comic, it's because there is, like, something that has happened in my mind, and then I've converted it into art. And, like, sure, there is a particular kind of art that I would say conceptual art that has to fit in that category. Like, I'm asking a question or I'm trying to process something, but I also don't think that, like, so I've only started writing in the last few years. but I don't think that, like, my writing is not a, creative expression. Like, it doesn't sit in a separate category for me. And maybe it's because, like, I identify as being a creative much more than anything else. So, like, everything that I do create, like, I know that internally I start feeling at some point, like, conversations are also creative. And then if you're creating relationships, that's also creative. Like, I know that, like, deep inside, that's how I feel. If I think of, like, you know, everyone is creative. That's where I'm coming from. That, of course you're creative relationships, you're creating meaning in your life. You are creating jokes. Maybe when you're talking to your friends, there is all of these, like, layers of creation happening in your life day to day.

Is being an artist an identity? And so then in order to feel

Kahran: I think we've, like, backed ourselves into a really interesting mental space because I wonder a little bit. Like, is being an artist an identity? And so then in order to feel like you have an artist's identity, obviously you have to care about identity, because otherwise, like, you're saying, being creative and having creativity, is just something that can be throughout your life. It can be an every moment in every sort of interaction, in every way. You do whatever your other identities or, you know, jobs are. Right. But if you want to say that I'm an artist, does that mean that you have to embrace this notion of having identities? And then one of the identities that you put on, you know, maybe it's all the time, or maybe it's some of the time, is this artist identity. But then for people who, you know, don't play that game of identities, like our two guests these past two episodes, like, maybe they just don't have. They don't think about it so much. And part of not even thinking about yourself as an artist is because you just don't think about identities.

Divya: Like, if you think about somebody, like, let's say, fran, who work, in many different things, and maybe she doesn't have a concrete identity there, but, like, she definitely has a concrete identity as a queer lady. Or would you say that that's also not true?

Kahran: I don't know. I mean, I feel like what came out in our episode to me, and, you know, of course, I've known Fran for several years, so I know her outside of the episode as well. But I think she's a very morally driven person. Right. She has a sense of what is right and wrong, in her mind, but I don't know if it kind of is so much like people like me do things like this.

Divya: It's like, I do this kind of, rather than people like me.

Kahran: Yeah. And I don't know, because she's not the only older lesbian I have met, who is kind of like that. Right. So I don't know if maybe it's kind of a question of growing up in the period that they did grow up in America, and it was kind of a cultural shift where it was like, oh, you know, we're not going to make things accessible to you that might be accessible to other kinds of people, and so we're going to carve out our own identity that is kind of this, like, you know, we do these things. I don't know. So I don't know about what led to it. But I just feel like if you talk to her, I don't know. Even, I think when she talks about how she came involved with the human rights council, and it's very brief at the end of that episode, but she talks about kind of seeing that speech by urvashive and how she just kind of felt that there was a possibility for change and she could help catalyze it. Right. And I think that that, again, it wasn't like, oh, I realized I was a queer woman and that, you know, queer people or queer women did these things, but it was like, oh, I felt empowered in my ability to do these things. And also, what's really interesting to me, she doesn't feel a need to evangelize. And I feel like a lot of people in their identities, especially once they have a sense of a solid identity, feel this need to evangelize, especially to other people, they feel like could be part of that identity. And I think it's really telling to me and interesting that she doesn't do that, but she's never tried to recruit me for anything, you know, like, even, like, to become part of the human rights council or something. Right. Like, it's just. I don't know. It's very interesting how she presents options and choices.

Okay, so you do a lot of different things, right

Divya: Okay, so you do a lot of different things, right? Like, do you think of yourself as a chef? Do you think of yourself as an investor? Do you think of yourself as a founder? Do you think of yourself as a writer or as a storyteller or, as a poet or, artist? Those are all things. A photographer. I must have forgotten many, but, like.

Kahran: Yeah, it's a really hard question for me, because one of the things I really don't like is to feel like I have constrained my options and I put myself in a box, right? So both, I really like those notions of identities, and I love, kind of, like, thinking about them and playing with them. But then as soon as I start to feel too close to one, I feel this need that I have to grab another one to show that I am more than just this thing. I think, actually, it's something we talked about in an episode a really long time ago, but it's more how I think about, capital, really, like time and money. I think my identity, I feel like, is tied up in this notion that I want to be able to accelerate my competency or my growth in these areas that I care about. And I think that I've tried to create the necessary freedoms and the necessary ability to invest both, of time and capital to kind of be able to say, okay, this is the thing that I'm excited about. How do I be able to become, at least to a point of competency or an acceptable level of competency for myself? It's interestingly, actually, I was kind of, I think, influenced by one of my parents best friends growing up, who really has had really deepen, hobbies to the point, like, crazy hobbies. Like he learned how to, like, competitively sail boats. I think right now he's learning paragliding. He raced cars for a little while, but he kind of, right, has built his life in a way that he could chase these new things and be like, oh, you know, why should I not be able to do this just because I'm getting older or just because I didn't do it when I was younger? I think that has always felt really appealing to me. Was that a roundabout answer enough?

One of the benefits of having multiple identities is being psychologically slippery

Divya: Like when you were talking about it and I was thinking about a thought I had when I was listening back to the episode with Aditi. I think one of the benefits of having multiple identities, even if you are like, you know, even if you do identify as something like having multiple identities, is that you become very psychologically slippery. like when Aditi says that it's been hard getting feedback from people, but then the moment she stopped thinking about it as her idea and it was the people's idea, it became a lot easier to, like, sort of iterate, something similar. But it's like, if I am just an artist, then any attack on that identity is such a threat. I know that for myself. If somebody is, let's say I tell somebody, oh, I design products and they're mildly amused by that, then I'll be like, oh, but I also make games. And then it's suddenly like, you can sort of do this thing where it's like, oh, you thought that I was this, but I'm really not that. I am also this thing and also this thing. And then suddenly you are just like. Like, it's almost like, you know, you can make so many different things with Lego, but you still have those discrete blocks in your brain. It's manageable. These are the pieces. But sure, you can still combine in, like, infinite ways, and so you don't have to worry about becoming a run off the mill character.

Kahran: Yeah, but even as you were saying that, I was kind of, thinking about it and paying attention to how I felt. About it. And it was interesting because I feel like if there's certain things that you don't want to say to people because you don't feel like, I don't know, there's certain places I think are more core to your identity. Like, for me, if I didn't feel satisfaction in my poetry, I would feel really sad more than anything else. I think it gives me so much joy that I can, like, almost always write a poem about something. Not always, but almost always. Right. And just, like, it's so. I don't know. And then I read them sometimes, and I remember, like, those moments, and it's just, like, it's really lovely. It's, like, such a special thing for me that, like, I feel like that wasn't. I wouldn't be who I was if I didn't have that as part of me. M whereas there's so many other things that I feel like are later, you know?

Divya: So you mean, like, you know, if somebody said that you are a bad investor, you wouldn't care? Or, somebody said you're a bad founder, or a bad co worker.

Kahran: I break so many rules in investing and, like, how you're supposed to, like, run a company.

Divya: I mean, you break rules in poetry also. I don't think that quality is the same as rule following. It's, like, really not the same at all.

Kahran: But in investing or something, you're a bad investor if you don't follow the rules until you make a lot of money, right? And then it doesn't matter if you are a bad investor or not, because now you're not a bad investor because of the outputs.

Divya: So, basically what you're saying is something like poetry, where there isn't an objective measure of if you are a good poet or not, the identity is slightly easier to put under crisis than if it was something like investment, where there is an objective measure. Like, it's very true that in India, the brand IIt gets you somewhere. It's like, you know, generally people who go there, it becomes a core part of their identity. But also, nobody can take it from me. Nobody can criticize it, because, like, it's just a thing. Even if somebody says, you are a bad iit or whatever, I'm like, okay, whatever. Does that mean? I cleared my exams. I am, like, out of it. I have a degree. Yeah, right. But, like, if somebody says you're a bad game designer, oh, boy, that's gonna.

Kahran: Hurt.

Divya: Because, like, there aren't objective measures. And especially if it was somebody that I respected and they said that, then I would like who's opinion I respected about game design, then I would like really, really worry about it. Like, then it would hurt.

Kahran: Last night my husband and I were watching this show called Ted Lasso, which I'm sure everyone has heard of at this point. And there's a certain scene where one of the assistant coaches has really been praised in the newspaper, and then, someone asks him for some coaching. Basically, it's like, you know, there's these two other players who are worth coaching because they are stars and, you know, they're like Picasso and Michelangelo. And he's like, you know, you are like the kind of painting that they put at the Holiday Inn to cover up a bloodstain on the wall. And it's like, it's just something that is so nasty, right, because it's from a coach. It's someone who sees your skill and sees you playing and then really kind of unpacks the show. And so I think something like that would be really difficult for me wherever I. If someone kind of like, unpacked these things, which I feel like it's a weird thing. And I wonder if you also feel this way. But I almost feel like I want to find my people for my poetry in a way I don't feel about anything else. Like none of my other artistic or like, identity pursuits.

Divya: Like your people, as in people who would resonate with what you are trying to say in your poetry, people who.

Kahran: Speak the same language. It's kind of what you were saying a few minutes ago when you said that I break the rules in my poetry. I break the rules for some people. This might be a strange example, but I remember learning about the Hudson river school, and it was always just striking to me, because, sure, there were people who had tried to paint things like those kinds of landscapes, and these really beautifully idyllic scenes of nature. before, right. But here was a bunch of people who said, no, wait, this could be a focus. There's enough in this that we can all commit our lifetimes to it. And you kind of feed on each other, right? And you kind of, and I think something you and I have talked about in the podcast many times before is it's kind of a false dichotomy, thinking that when you make a choice, you're closing doors and you're reducing options, right? So. And I think what. What happens is that as you continue down a path, you realize there was more and more depth in that path. So. Right. So I think for these painters, they realized that you could spend your lifetime in this thing. But I think part of that was because you had a bunch of people around you who were also reinforcing that for you. So I kind of feel that way. Right. I think that there's a certain way I could, grow and, like, find more depth in my style as a poet. And I think a lot of the people that I kind of have met as poets are in a different place, and so they're kind of trying to pull me towards a, like, a more center. And what I kind of wish is that there were these people who were also kind of go down the same.

Divya: Path with me, like, in a very different way. But I can kind of understand it because I know that, like, artistically, in games, there is a very specific flavor of game that I like to make, even though the games that I have made are, like, you know, not similar to each other. Like, whenever Charu and I are talking about games, there is a very specific thing that we are always sort of drawing references from. So for me, it comes from, like, you know, okay, these are the kind of pieces that I want to make. But I wonder, like, where the people piece comes for you, because, like, I'm. I feel like it's okay even if other people don't get it or don't make games like that. Like, you know, especially when you talk about games. Games is not seen as an artistic medium, especially in, like, an underdeveloped creator economy, like India. Games are definitely not seen as an artistic medium by most people.

Kahran: They're seen as a way of making money.

Divya: They're seen as a commercial. Yeah, they're seen as a commercial medium. Right?

If you say you have artistic aspirations, the feedback is often negative

Like, they're seen. And not just that. If you try to say that you have artistic aspirations, the feedback that you'll often get is, oh, so it's just a hobby for you. And it's, Like, it's literally the same response that one would get if one is thinking about, I don't know. Like, you know, if you say, I paint, and then people would be like, oh, so that's your hobby, right? Like, even if it's so serious, quote unquote serious painter, people would be like, ah. but that's, you know, it's not a real thing that people do that can't be considered legit. I don't know. Like, I've got that response also many times, but somehow, like, I've not really felt like, oh, there would be those people who are out there and who would understand what I'm trying to do. It's interesting.

Kahran: I guess it comes back to intent for me. Right. And I think it's there. Maybe there's other people who might make similar things without the intent, but I think finding other people who have a similar intent to you is really exciting.

Divya: What if they wrote very differently? So, like, let's say. I would say your poetry feels very postmodern in nature if I was just to compare it to art. Right. But, like, what if somebody came from, like, similar viewpoints as you, but they wrote in, like, a neoclassical style? Like, they wrote sonnets, but those sonnets came from the same principles as your poetry comes from. So, for example, like, in painting, it would be if somebody wanted to paint abstract paintings instead of, like, how the Hudson river school people painted the paintings, right. So, like, rather than classical, you're painting very abstractly. What does that feel like to you? I think, like, now I'm just thinking about style versus concept, and, like, what are you trying to find similarity in?

Kahran: It's funny you call that style because, for me, style is almost the affect you put on the content, if you will. So, like, it's the way the author paused on certain things and the way they chose, to highlight which facets of the content that felt stylistic to me, even more than, say, like, the medium or, like, you know, the straight form, which, of course, the form is a stylistic choice as well. But it's just interesting because I think more, for some reason, of style as being, like, you know, when you look at a plant, did you choose to talk about the shades of green or the shades of yellow or, you know, the bark or versus it kind of being the form? Of course, they are both styles, though. I guess maybe one is kind of more content than the other. I don't know.

Divya: I also think that, like, that's a reflection of our own psychological preferences.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Like, where do we recognize a style as a choice and are able to appreciate it is in those areas where, like, you know, we would be slightly more primed. So, like, let's say you are conceptually more interested in exploring different facets. So you're like, huh? You know, that's the one that I feel like is the continuity. And then, like, form can be whatever.

Kahran: Yeah. The rigidity of forms, I find kind of, like, it's fine, you know? No, I don't really care. Like, it just doesn't do that much for me. I'm like, I'm great. Like, you know, I can appreciate, because a lot of, like, like, forms, like, you know, you know, an iambic pentameter, you know, like, you can really feel it in the way, ah, a piece of poetry feels, or like, you know, in haiku, you can really, like, feel it in, like, the way the meanings are, like, kind of captured and then reflected and even, like, there's more of them as you read it more. I think it's interesting, and maybe it's an interesting thing for us to talk to with our future guests as well, because I think asking them about whether they consider themselves to be artists and in what situations in their lives do they consider themselves to be artistic would just be really interesting, because I almost wish I had asked Fran that question now. I wonder if she does consider herself to be an artist and in what circumstances, and was that an identity she had for a while and she moved on from, or does she kind of feel like it's been throughout?

Divya: Very true. Also, because I think that I feel uncomfortable asking people that question. Because I think I feel uncomfortable answering that question.

Kahran: Yeah. When you asked about what identity I felt, I resonated with, I felt very uncomfortable. But then I realized that's because I feel uncomfortable with answering because of what I feel like that question does. Right. So maybe it's similar for you, but there's something about the framing of that question that makes you feel very uncomfortable.

Divya: I think there's something about the weightiness of the word artist that feels uncomfortable to me.

Kahran: To me, I think it is an identity thing, right? It's like there's this cultural identity of an artist, and if you play the identity game, then you feel like you have to, you know, and robe yourself with it. Right? put it on.

Fran and I are fascinated by identity because of our podcast

Divya: And do you think we are so fascinated by identity because now we are talking to these people around us, and, like, we are getting into long, deep conversations with them because of the podcast. And so, like, now both of us are also, I don't know, we have had a, ah, perception of what doing a podcast would be like, but now that's transforming. And so, like, you know, we sort of start revolving around the themes of identity, because we are also exploring what that could be or like, what the podcast could be and, like, how other people around us, see themselves.

Kahran: Yes and no. I think you're right. But I also think that it's kind of the age we are. Right? We're both in our mid, or I mean, our early to mid thirties. And I think, there was a great quote that ran around social media for a while. But I think, like, especially for queer people in your teens and twenties, there's kind of this sense of figuring out your identity. And then I think there's this realization as you kind of leave your twenties, that identity can be different things, and you can kind of have these different identities and different moments, and they don't necessarily have to be at odds. Whereas it really felt like, I think when you're a little bit younger, that you kind of have to choose, and things are almost at odds. And I feel. Remember, I feel that way, kind of like growing up, that there's like, oh, you know, are you indian or are you american? Right? Like, which, like, people will be like, but which country do you love more? Right. Where do you want to be? So, I don't know. I think that there's a thing that starts to happen in your thirties. I think maybe we're more, in tune with it because we're spending a lot of time thinking about it with other people. But I even see all my friends who are having children and even getting married. You start to feel like, oh, yeah, this is this new identity. And then for some people, it's like, oh, this has to be my identity. Not that this can be one I can put on. I think actually talking to computational mama was really interesting about that because she very much felt to me like someone who was like, oh, I'll put this on. You know, I have this one that everyone's giving to me. I have this way people want me to behave, but I want to have this other thing. So I'm going to create another identity and put that on when I want to. It's very cool, but I think it's equally cool. And I, like, shocking to me, frankly, how Fran and other, they do it, because they just seem to sidestep the question, and I feel almost, like, jealous. And the ability to bring that kind of wherewithal.

Divya: Yeah. It's only, like, in listening to it again, I realized that. Yeah. Did you just, like, very easily just skirted those questions away? Like, ah, yeah, this is not even the most interesting thing. Yeah, I just want to do this, and then, like, you know, I want to do that. And, yeah, you are correct. Like, it is very, very inspiring to just see someone do that.

Kahran: Yeah. Cause I think if you think about it in tech, so many people don't do that. Right. They're like, oh, I am a product manager. Right. So you may have had something that caught your interest, but the notion of kind of leaving your discipline to chase your interest is really frowned upon. It's like, what the hell? You're a product manager, do product management. You want to learn to code? Go do a general assembly, like Coruscant, like, you know, coding, and then come back as a coder. But this notion that, like, you would chase your interest across different fields is so culturally not what we do in tech. So I don't know, how much is that, like, how much are these people really being mavericks? Or, how much is it the culture that they grew up in is a little bit different and less, like, siloed?

Divya: No, but I'm really excited to, like, you know, interview the next set of people and then just see where that leads us because I'm sure that, you know, just having a lot of different conversations with a lot of different types of folks is going to. There is a certain intimacy in just sitting with somebody for an hour and being like, I am just going to listen to what you have to say, and I'm going to be interested in what you have to say. Like, no wonder people love doing podcasts.

Kahran: I think also that's something you particularly love, right? Like, I think you love getting to kind of know people and understand why they make the decisions they make. I think it's something I realized, you know, you will always ask me if, like, I give a little, little sigh when I'm reading something. You'll be like, what was that sigh? And I really like it because it helps me unpack, you know, what was in that moment. but I think, you know, for obviously, of course. Right. So I think getting to do that in a formal structure is an amazing part of having a podcast.

We've been exploring these questions of identity so far on this podcast

I was going to add, though, that I think that we've arrived at something today here, which I think is really interesting. We've kind of been exploring these questions of identity so far. This podcast, I think, at least for me, I'm realizing that the side of identity that's really interesting is this idea of artistic identity and what goes into it and who feels like it's accessible and who feels like they didn't need to worry about it and still feel artistic. It's just really interesting to me. So I almost love to. Yeah, pick that up as we go forward this season and find more people to talk to about it. be music is by Akshay Ramuhali of btrpt. Music editing is by beatnik.