Thinking on Designing Spaces (and changing your mind)

Divya: I generally have resistance towards designing spaces

Kahran: Hi, I'm, Karin.

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya, and welcome to the 16th episode of thinking on thinking. Today, we dive deep into a singular problem statement. I generally have had a lot of resistance towards designing spaces, especially the spaces that I live in. And our conversation went into how I can change that mental model, what would be required for that, and how I can think about spaces. It was a very action oriented conversation, but not action in terms of what you are doing, but how you are changing, thinking about what you are doing. It was a really fun conversation for both of us. Something quite different from what we have done till now, and I hope you enjoy it.

Kahran: So, as I think about, like, our lives and kind of the space that we have now, we like Gaurav and I like to hang out after dinner. we like to hang out in the morning before he goes to work. He likes to practice flute. I like to work. And all of those four activities need to ideally happen in this space, in our living dining space. and because I think some of those activities are not as well supported, and certain activities are more easily supported, we default to certain activities. So we end up watching tv after dinner because it's easy. Gorev doesn't practice flute that much because it's kind of difficult now because flute used to be on the counter, but I put it away because it was just. There was so much stuff on the counter now. Right. And he. Since I put it away, he hasn't actually taken it out because it's not there to remind him. It's just. It's a little bit more work. Right. and in the mornings, we kind of end up standing around because there's not an obvious place for us to, like. Like, either sit and be able to, like, chat with each other or stand and talk to each other. Like, it just. The space again, because, like, because we have a marble countertop in the kitchen, we have to, like, put something on it before you put your plates down. And then because you have to put table mats out, you just end up kind of standing and eating. It's just one thing leads to another.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: so. Right. So that's how I kind of think about. There's a different part, which, I mean, you could kind of call it aesthetic, but I feel like it's just, like, is the space meeting all the functional needs? And I feel like you have to. It does take sort of some. The reason why I don't think aesthetic is totally wrong. Cause it does take some sort of that kind of thinking to be like, oh, what are the needs even of the space? And then, you know, how does the space maybe match and fit to those?

Divya: No, that makes a lot of sense, because I feel like you did something very interesting there. You expanded the definition of functional, because initially, when you started seeing your, like, when you started your statement, I was like, yeah, but my space also meets my functional needs because it has everything that, like, everything is assigned to a function. These can do this here, we can do that here. We can do that here. But just the way you were describing, it became a little more, behavioral in some sense. Like, what kind of behaviors would we like to cultivate? And, like, that part probably, I'm not thinking about.

Kahran: Yeah. And I think that's the part that I really focus, on when I think about spaces. like, that's where I think we got to a good enough space with the place I live in, in megalore, where, like, yeah, people did kind of. They behaved in the way we wanted them to, frankly. Right. Like, people stopped walking into the kitchen when they would come into our house. They would kind of sit down. They felt flowed outside. and, as you said, like, the outdoors is a beautiful part of the home. So, like, it just. The behaviors were nice. and it became kind of obvious where we would have coffee in the morning and, like, where we would hang out.

Divya: this is very interesting. I haven't thought about it like that, because it's almost like. It's almost like you divided the experiential from the aesthetic, and you're saying that, like, the functional and the aesthetic meet m together somewhere in the middle, and then something else gets added, and that builds the experiential component of whatever the space is.

Kahran: It's actually this interesting idea that, I think early listeners of our podcast may remember. but I'm working on a short story with one of my childhood friends. one of the ideas that we use in the story around how magic works is when something has happened in a space for a long time, that it leaves echoes of that in that space. so if there was a large body of water or people gathered every year for a fair or something, always in that same space, that then there would be some of that. Once the behavior happened there for a long time, there would be some, remnants of it going forward. anyway, you just reminded me of it when you were mentioning that,

Divya: There was this intersection that also reminded me of, like, as you were describing this, Do you know about walk? Hey. which, like, literally translates to breath. Of the wall.

Kahran: Oh, I do. Yes, but go on.

Divya: right, so, like, it almost sounds like that, right? Like, the idea that you said spaces hold, the experience walk. Hey. Is literally that the walk holds the breath, like, the breath of everything that has been made in it, till now, and it becomes more rich and complex with.

Kahran: Yeah. so there's a food blogger who I really like named, Kenji Lopez. And, he recently wrote a book called the Walk. And so in the introduction, he talks about this concept, but I forgot about it until you mentioned it just now. Yeah, you should follow him. I love his. He's always just, like, doing exciting things, eating exciting things. He's in Mexico right now. He's just, like, eating the coolest stuff, and I'm just like. And he just seems like a really lovely guy.

There is no recipe to make places feel nice, or there's a

Divya: Okay, so now, like, let's say, my initial resistance towards the idea of making my space nicer, for the lack of a better term, is reduced. Like, I can feel less resistance towards it right now because it makes more sense to make something more experientially conducive than try to just check.

Kahran: Yeah, absolutely. that's how I think about it.

Divya: But then where I would go with that is now I don't have the right heuristics for how to solve for a space. Because I'm a visual designer, I can think about what looks nice and what doesn't look nice. Because I've done experience, design, I can think about what would feel nice and what wouldn't feel nice. But I don't think I have enough of a framework to sort of work it together. It's almost like it would need, like, there is a recipe to make places feel nice, or there's a way of understanding how to make spaces feel nice. And I don't have that. That's the thought that comes to my mind right now.

Kahran: Oh, so you feel like it's more of an algorithmic problem, like, where there are steps that you can follow.

Divya: No, no, no.

Kahran: To,

Divya: Okay, no, I used the wrong word. I don't mean to use the word recipe. I would. I think what I was internally thinking about was how if I want to make something indian, I don't need a recipe for it. I understand how indian cooking works, so I don't need the proportions. I don't need. Oh, this is how exactly I need to make this thing, because I have an overall understanding of the thing. Right. and I feel like there would be some analogous thing. So, like, it's not a like, it's not an algorithmic problem, it's a heuristical one. But I feel like there would be some set of heuristics that I could build up, and right now my table feels empty.

Kahran: I feel like when you say, like an algorithmic versus heuristical problem, you have a frame of reference to. I don't know if I share it completely.

Divya: M okay. In my mind, problems can be complex or they can be complicated. an example of a complex problem would be, I don't know, making a, like, you know, 40 step dish or building a car or building a rocket engine. Right? Like, it's complicated in the sense that the first time you do it, it's gonna be hard. But after that, you can, like, with a very reasonable reliability, you can just reproduce the same result. So the first time you have to figure it out, but then as you keep doing it again and again, you can, as long as you follow the steps correctly, you're going to get reasonably reliable results. Like, if you have figured out a recipe to make some really good dish, if you can recreate the recipe, you can recreate that. I would argue that's true of might.

Kahran: Not be almost everything, right? Because, like, and, the example I give you is like, like, I'm not very good at balancing. So whenever I'm learning a new sort of balancing posture or, like, trying to balance on top of a ball or something, the first, like, set of, like, exercises I will struggle with completely, but then, then it'll just get much better. So by the third set, like, I'll usually be able to, like, like, balance completely well. Right.

Divya: But if you had ten kids, by the 10th kid, you are no gonna no longer like, you're not gonna be way better or find it way easier to raise a kidde. And that is an, example of a complex, like, complicated problem. There is no recipe for raising a kid. There are certain things that you should be doing right. There are certain things that you should be avoiding. Same as with making friends. You have made a lot of friends. I have made a lot of friends, but I can't give someone a step by step guide to reliably make friends. I have some ideas around. How can I nudge the system into the direction, let's say, let's just keep going down the route of friendship. If I'm meeting someone and I'm interested in them, I have certain things that I know, oh, if I do this, it makes more likely that we're going to be friends. And if I do that, it makes it less likely that we're going to be friends. But nothing ensures, like, if I have a good recipe, I can be 95% sure that I'm gonna turn a good dish. And with, like, friendship, the best case I'm hoping for is like 55%. Same is true for, like, building companies. You could have built a company before, and you will have better systems for thinking about things. But I at least, like, in my experience, complicated problems, you feel more confidence about them because you know what questions to ask, but you don't really know the answers. The answers are very subjective, but it's.

Kahran: Interesting because I think you amass a set of knowledge that you feel like, you know, I was telling you before we started recording, the last episode of the Knowledge project I was listening to, Shane is talking to this gentleman who's sharing this notion that as companies know more and more, then they start to feel like they've solved more and more of the problem. And then the room for innovation becomes less and less, and it's just kind of a tendency that happens, and then that company will tend to buy it, acquire company, because that company is doing innovation, but then they apply their processes, and then that company gets absorbed, and then the cycle begins again. Ah, so it's an interesting thing, I think, what you're saying that when we start to move into algorithmic solutions to things, I think that we, like, sometimes, yes, it's like you're saying that there's a recipe to be followed, but even when there's a recipe to be followed, that recipe is dependent upon certain external factors. Right. The most obvious example is like, when you bake, it's depending on what altitude you're at. Like, otherwise the recipe can be dramatically different. and, I think people forget just that once you have an algorithmic solution, it's dependent upon external factors as well. And if those external factors change, then you have to look at it again as needing a heuristic, sort of a heuristic problem, needing a different kind of solution.

Divya: Yeah. I also think that, like, certain problems, if you break them down into smaller pieces, sure you can find algorithmic parts to it, but it's a folly to think that it ever becomes an algorithmic problem. Just because you've broken it down into smaller and more manageable pieces doesn't mean that the, like, the complicatedness of the problem has changed.

Kahran: Yeah.

When you enter a space, how do you think about it

Divya: So back to the idea of, like, I don't understand spaces in that fashion. Like, I don't think that I have even the markers around which I could start building heuristics. But you relate to spaces very differently. So like let's go to that question. When you enter a space, how do you think about it? How do you feel about it? like what are the spaces that you generally gravitate towards? What do you not? What thoughts you easily evaluate and what you don't?

Kahran: Lately, I just moved from Bangalore to New York and there's a lot of transport, involved in that. So a lot of spending time in airports and kind of lobbies and receptions. we've also been hanging out with some of our friends and that tends to be in restaurants. And so I would say that those spaces tend to be places where you're trying to move people into certain activities. And that will usually be what I first kind of notice about a space. It's like where are you being told to move to? What is the movement within the space? How are people expected to move through the space? And how clear and successful is that? I think depending on the space it can mean different things. Like how easy is it to find your way to someone's apartment? how can you find the bathroom without asking anyone? do you know where to go? Just kind of instinctively, are often just examples of a space that's well designed where they've given you, ah, markers that you're not having to consciously think about. for example, in the moma right now, where I was earlier this week, they've clearly added a sort of security check a little bit ahead of where you used to walk in. So it's just really interesting because what it's done is it's changed the way people enter into the building because now you go through these kind of detector thingies and then if the detector goes off, then only do they look at your bag. Otherwise you can just walk straight in. So I think the purpose of it is they're having to look at less people's bags. But the net result is everyone is walking through these two detectors. And this is an entrance that has maybe ten doors across of which they've kept two doors for exiting. So everyone's coming in through these doors but then being funneled in through these two detectors. And then because of that they're cutting off to the left. There's a section for overflow ticketing so people can buy their own tickets on these machines and everyone is instead going straight and up the stairs and then to join the line. And so there's a queue to get tickets and there's about like 15 empty electric electronic machines where you could be getting your tickets. And so that was just interesting to me, right? Because I was like, oh, I understand how this could have happened and how this wouldn't have happened in the design. But now, because of this, like a kind of additive component, now you've changed the flow of people through the building.

Divya: See, that is the kind of thing that I find, like, that is the kind of thing that scares me when I think about making a space better.

Kahran: Why?

Divya: Because it's such a complex thing. So for example, I went to the Kochi Vietnale this weekend and they had a bunch of different venues. I think I went to like some six or seven different venues. And it was very interesting how different. So, for example, they had, like they had these main venues and they had some satellite venues, which were like not as high, I guess. and the interesting thing was, because it was really hot and the satellites satellite venues did not have the kind of money. There wasn't air conditioning in those. Like, there wasn't even a single room which would have air conditioning. It wasn't like any of the venues fully air conditioned, but there were some rooms which had air conditioning. And I just found myself feeling way more harshly critical of the artwork.

Kahran: Oh, that's really interesting.

Divya: Like, because I was just like, oh, this is too hot. I'm feeling uncomfortable. I don't want to be here. And so I was just less open to the art in those places. There were some artworks which were probably not as deep or as meaningful, but because it was cooler there, I just felt nicer. And I'm aware of this bias. Like, as I am doing this, I am still aware, oh my God, I am not liking this because I'm feeling hot right now. And this is not aesthetic. This is just very purely functional. But I'm sure when they were designing, and of course they have designed it for across months, air conditioning was probably not needed till last month. But now that it's getting so hot, my brain was just, could not think beyond that. And like, that's such a small thing. But I know that when you're a curator, you're probably not thinking about that. You are thinking about the space in many ways, but probably not thinking how are people going to be moving between these spaces? Is it going to be hot? Is it going to be windy? What happens when somebody is coming here in the evening, in the morning? Are they hungry? Have they eaten? Right? Like, how far is this thing? You're probably not thinking about all of those things. But when you're designing us, like, when you're a person experiencing the space, you feel all of those things.

Kahran: I don't know. I would say that it is possible to think about those things. Right.

All art forms require observation, right? So does design

In the moma again, the first thing you see when you enter is there's a cafe, and then there's a space to sit down. So immediately, you know, and then there's also a bathroom, right? So immediately, you know, once you're inside where the things you might need immediately are, you can get some sustenance, you can take a little rest. And the first exhibit is actually there's a projection, in this whole atrium area, which has an indoor and outdoor component. So it's a really lovely space. So you can even feel like you're experiencing some art. You're taking a little rest, and then you kind of can gather yourself to move forward. I don't know. I think it's just a question of really thinking about behavior, right? It's knowing, like, especially moma. Like, they know it's so many foreign tourists, they have a bunch of museums they want to see in the day. It's not their first rodeo, you know? I think I remember there was like it was in our lifetimes. They moved into that space like it was with great fanfare. I can't quite remember when.

Divya: How do you think about it?

Kahran: What do you mean?

Divya: Okay, I'll give a side example. But recently I was talking to someone who was telling me, oh, I just can't make arth. I don't have the artistic thing. I just don't have. There's something that artists need that I don't have. And she was referring to, like, a skill of the hand. And I asked her, can you write with your hand? Like, can you hand write? And she was like, of course I can. And I was like, then you have all the spine motor control that is needed. What you probably don't know is how to see. And when you learn how to see, you learn how to draw.

Kahran: so I feel like that's a.

Divya: Bit of a, no, that is true for all art forms. When you learn how to observe, you learn how to write way better. When you learn how to listen to things properly, you get better at music, especially when you're thinking about constructing things from scratch. You can copy things. Sure, you can do rote learning and copy things, but, ah, at least in my experience, all art forms require observation. Like doing good quality input is a, reliable way of having good quality output. It's just like, you know what questions to ask. You know where to look, you know how to think about it, and which is why I'm asking, how do you think about spaces?

Kahran: That's interesting. I will answer your question, but I was thinking about, as a counterpoint while you were talking, that, like, learning about convergence and how parallel lines behave was such an important thing for me when I learned, how to draw. But now I'm thinking about it, really, it's kind of a shortcut to make you observe those things, because once you have that construct in your mind, then of course, you'll look and say, oh, I know these windows are the same size, but, because I'm standing at a different relationship to all three of them. In fact, they all look like they're going, like the lines of the windows are converging to a single place. yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So I guess I would say yeah. So the first frame I already kind of gave you. Right. Which is like, how you would, move about the space. And I think how the space is functional for its purposes. I think something we talked about on a previous episode was I was sharing this example of this coffee shop, that I like to go to. and how it, is not really conducive for working, but it is very conducive for taking meetings and for quiet contemplation. And I think we were talking about how even if they added, power adapters, that wouldn't change the feel of it. I think something I'll also notice is, what is the feel of the experience? And does the functional choices make match the feel? Right. So if it feels like this is a place for lounging, does the furniture feel like it is actually for lounging? I think I'm using feel in two different ways there. So one is kind of the sense of it, but then the other is, like, how it actually behaves when you touch it and interact with it. So does the furniture actually behave in a comfortable, loungey way when you interact with it? Did you have a thought?

Divya: Yeah. Yeah. It, like, made me think about this concept in game design called Ludo. Narrative resonance, or dissonance. so Ludo is the play, and narrative is the story. Right. And if you are playing a game where. Okay, so have you played or seen the last of us?

Kahran: I've seen. We've been. Gaurav and I have been watching it.

Divya: Right. So, when you're playing the game, you can tell from the show the relationship between Ellie and Joel. Is the central thing in the entire show. Right. and, like, both of those characters and how they evolve with that relationship. Now, when you play the game, almost always the focus is on the relationship. They are always, like, whether you play as Ellie or whether you play as Joel, you are always focused on the other person. Like, the play is always, like, whether Ellie is trying to protect, like, it's really, really centered. Like they're helping each other out. You're always focused on it. Even in the moments when the relationship is not doing well. The gameplay tells you that, like, Ellie, quote unquote, wouldn't listen to you in certain parts when she's feeling depressed. It's just so amazing because you just feel that, oh, I feel something is wrong. And, like, there, the play and the story is sort of gelling well together.

Kahran: Interesting, right?

Divya: Because there is a lot of ludonarrative resonance, so you feel what you are playing.

On the other hand, there is witcher three. Amazing game. One of the best ever made

On the other hand, there is, like, witcher three. Amazing game. One of the best ever made. I love it. The central, theme line is that you are trying to find your daughter. And then you would be doing all of these side quests of helping a woman find her goats or, like, you know, giving someone some herbs or some, like, random things like that. And if you are like, you know, witcher does not do it poorly. So, like, you are always immersed because the world is pretty immersive. But if you were just to think about that larger thing, if my child was missing, would I be doing random things for other people? Like, would I be doing chores for random strangers that I've never met before? No. Right? And that's, like, ludonarrative dissonance. And the word gets a lot of heat because, like, a lot of critics use it in wrong ways, but, you can do it in smaller ways. Also, like, is the play and the layer on top of it, are they pushing me into different directions? Because if they're pushing you into different directions, it builds tension. And if they are bringing you together towards the same goal, it, like, improves the pace, makes the thing feel a lot more seamless. And when you were talking about spaces and, like, how the functional and the, feel part of it and how they interact with each other, it, like, sort of made me think, oh, this is kind of like, you know, like, this is kind of like that concept where it's like, even if I see this is a space for you to sit. If there is a lot of through fair in that space and a lot of people are coming and going, you're probably not gonna feel comfortable sitting in that space.

Kahran: No, I think that makes a lot of sense.

I wonder if there is something about physical spaces that does not let it be mapped

I was thinking about for a second whether, like, how that is true across other things. I think something we've talked about in the podcast before is how it's true across different levels of the experience that a company has with its customers. Right. So when you have expectations of how a company will behave, when you learn more about that company, and it behaves in the way you expect, that is part of how people move down that path of loyalty. But when there is that kind of. That dissidence, when you have this expectation that is not met, then that often can lead to, something that erodes, the kind of trust that is built between the brand and the person experiencing.

Divya: I wonder if there is something about physical spaces that does not let it to be clearly mapped into other things, because thats how generally, I build heuristics into areas that I dont understand. For example, when I first started writing, and it's not very, like, old that I started writing. like in 2020, I started writing a little bit. and very quickly, my brain found, oh, this is similar to this part of design, and this is similar to that part of design, and this is similar to that part of design. And very quickly it became like I had a rough skeletal framework, and then I could figure out, okay, these are the things which are very different about writing, which are not so about art. So, for example, a very rough artwork can communicate a lot. You can't do the same thing with writing. Like, the requirement of polish is just slightly higher because there isn't other sort of relationships beyond the chronological, how you are reading the words one after the other to distract you. Right. like, abstract writing is a lot more cognitively draining. While abstract art can be very emotionally evocative. And like, those small things my brain was able to pick up. But broadly, there is this structure, and you can do, like, you know, Xyz things like that skeleton is there. and now I'm just like. I think because I'm trying to problem solve it, and because I know that there is not going to be a singular thing, I'm just thinking about, how do I map it, for the lack of a better term? Can I map it into something that I know?

Kahran: See, the answer I would give you, it goes back to this thing we talked about previously. Right. But how we have different, feelings about making art, and how I feel like things reach a point where it feels right. And then you were saying that that you reach a point where you're like, I'm going to stop working on this. Right? Isn't that how you said it?

Divya: you had said something about expression, and I had said about art is never complete, but abandoned.

Kahran: That was it. So I think I feel similarly about spaces, right. That it's a little hard for me to explain what the components would be, because there's a certain point where it just starts to feel. Right. when I had my studio in New York in 2014 to 2015, I really went through a lot of iterations, of the space, and it was kind of a joke with all my friends that they would come over and it would be in a different. Because it was a studio, right. So it was kind of crazy that I'd find so many different layouts, but I would manage to. And then it reached a point, I think, after about four or five months, where I was happy, and then I kept it like that for the rest of the time. and I wouldn't say necessarily that it was any particular component. Didn't move in that final layout. Right. Like, I think, actually, I ended up moving the bed and kind of the dining table, which were the two biggest pieces of the space, quite significantly in that final layout. So it wasn't like I kind of iterated my way, you know, at least visually iterated my way, into where it made me happy. yeah. But it was this kind of understanding of, I think, what I like to use the space for, right. And so I realized having a place I could sit and read was really important, that I wasn't going. That didn't really care that much about the table being, like, a huge part of it, so I could kind of put it in this other place, that I like to rely on my bed.

Divya: This is so frustrating.

Kahran: Why?

Divya: Because, like, so I understand this problem enough to know that I can't iterate my way to it, but I don't understand it enough to get to it. See? Like, you just know how to make big changes and where to make big changes. Like, when I'm making games, I know where to make big changes. What should I significantly change for the feel of the place to alter, or what should I significantly change for the experience to be different? When I'm making products, I know that, like. Like, I know what is a small change and what is a big change and what seems like a small input and what seems like a small output, like, what will come out to be a small output. I understand that. And, like, with spaces, I just like, that mental map is just absent almost.

Kahran: Oh, well, I mean, okay, maybe I'll tell you. Some of the things I feel like are basics. But, like, you know, obviously the placement of the furniture, maybe I shouldn't say obviously, but one of the big components is the placement of the furniture. And also, like, what you see. Right. So, like, especially, I think, when you enter into a room, your sight lines will kind of guide you on what you feel like the room is for. this is, I think, maybe a slightly controversial thing that I feel. I'm not sure if it's like, a well accepted fact. Right. But, like, if you see, like, a bed, when you first walk into a room, you're going to feel like it's a bedroom. Or like, if you see a table, you're going to feel a certain way. especially like a formal dining table, right. You might not feel like that's the right place for you to hang out in that room. So you might move to a different space. so I think about. One of the things I think about is that. Right, so what are the sight lines from the different places where people hang out in the room? or also the entrance and exits of that room? And then also, where are your placements of big furnitures? because. And how did those orient with each other? So how would you interact in different spaces? And then thinking about, like, okay, you know, if there were two people here, where, how would they behave? Like, if there were three people, where would. Would they behave? There are four people. And then going to whatever you feel like, the reasonable sort of Max is, for that space. And as I think I was mentioning earlier on, one of the things that you want to think about is what are the functions in that space going to be? so in our case, we have frequent functions, but then also more occasional functions like gorai might, foam roll, or we might, use some sort of yoga mat or something. So that's something where you need to be able to create the space, but it doesn't have to be available all the time. But if you have to move, like a heavy piece of furniture, that's kind of a pain in the ass. If you can move a light piece of furniture or something easily movable, that's much easier to deal with if it's something that you might be doing on a weekly basis. But I do think a big thing, though, is whatever you see you're going to do. And there's a lot of interesting research that proves this. People will eat the sugary thing when it's at their sight line, and they'll drink whatever is at their sight line. So I think thinking about that is a really big thing. It's like, what is visible to you? and I think as someone who does tend to forget stuff, I know that I have to keep things that I need to remember in a place that they're visible to me. So I'll have a space, usually, that I'll see on my way out, that I'll have things that I need to remember.

Moods can be created by the levels of light in a space

Like, my wallet is sitting right by the door. and that's a learned habit, but that's also just helpful for everyone.

Divya: I like that. That's actually really helpful. Yeah. It wasn't basic. I hadn't thought about where are people looking at?

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Like, I really hadn't. And it's like, now that you, once you said it, it feels really obvious. Like, of course you should be thinking about it.

Divya: Okay. Are there other things that you would say? And, like, you know, this is very basic and obvious?

Kahran: I think something you and I have talked about before is that moods can be created by the levels of light. And I think that's similar to what you were just saying with, like, sight lines. But depending on how well things are lit, certain areas are going to feel inviting or less inviting.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Like, you're not going to go into a dark space generally. Right. So if some spaces are lit and some spaces are dark, that's going to encourage people to sit in the lit spaces. And it's just an interesting way you can start to think about how you control the traffic flow or control where people are going at different times of the day. And I mean, at that point, control from, like, a space design point of view. Right. Like, you've, you've thought about, oh, this is where we want to sit for the evening. Well, how am I going to encourage people to do that and to know that, especially when they might have a habit of doing something else. And that's a really interesting thing you have to think about, is because once people are used to a certain space or used to a certain way of behaving, they have habits. And if you're trying to encourage them to do something different, you're going to have to use all of the resources at your disposal. And some of them can mean literally, like, you know, putting it more dark at the dining table and lighting up your, your sitting area. if that's what you want people to do after dinner, turn off the lights over the table and turn on more lights over there, and people will naturally start to migrate over there.

Divya: Oh, that is very smart.

I've always painted walls in whatever space I've lived since college

Okay, so I'm not sure if, like, this fits or doesn't fit, but I've always painted walls in whatever space I've lived.

Kahran: Okay.

Divya: Like, since my college time. Like, we used to have a corridor, and I had painted this, like, gradient of bubbles in front of, like, in front of my room. And I have painted every house that I have lived in since then. Like, even if it is something very small, I have done something there. And I wonder if it is, like, because I'm trying to convey some amount of that mood to myself. Like, in a weird way, if you have very bright and vibrant colors, regardless of the amount of light, there is always a certain amount of energy in the space because of the colors. Like, you can keep it. Like, unless it is completely dark, if there is some light, it's always gonna be more vibrant than if there was nothing there. Right? And I wonder if, like, you know, I've always done that because I like higher energy spaces. Like, one of the artworks that I really liked in Koji B and Ali was this mega colorful floor. And, like, it was just empty, giant room. And some, like, the artist had, taken multiple colored tapes, and they had sort of gone around and made this, like, very beautiful pattern of, like, concentric, so you can't call them circles, but concentric loops. And had done, vinyl sort of flooring on top of, like, just sort of put vinyl on top of that. And, like, I loved that space precisely because it was so colorful and bright. And I wonder, it's like, like, now I'm just thinking about, okay, does that attract me to a certain space? Or, like, you know, because I am willing to put in that effort also, like I said, initially, I generally don't think it's worth the effort. But, like, here I'm like, okay, it takes effort, but I'm m willing to put in this effort.

Kahran: Interesting. Yeah, that's an interesting idea, because I think there can be certain singular pieces or certain singular things that give a space a feel. And maybe that's what you're doing because, you know, you're not having to rely on so many small things because you're doing one big thing that especially because you have attachment to it. And the people that you live with have attachment to it because they've seen you building it. And so they're both the final output outcome, and, the understanding of the journey that every time you engage with that, every time you see that thing? It's going to bring to mind all of those feelings of attachment and ownership.

Divya: interesting. I wouldn't have thought of it as attachment, because I've made it in every space that I've been in, and I just leave it. Somebody paints over it. And I remember making one of the artworks in one of my friends houses, and they were so upset when they were leaving the house, because they were like, no, you made this thing. It was so pretty. And I'm. And I was like, yeah, but wall art is meant to, like, you know, it is ephemeral. I don't think I feel attachment as such, but, like, just the mood idea feels interesting to me. Like, the mood part really resonates there.

Kahran: Yeah. And I guess maybe attachment was a strange word, but it's making the space feel a certain way. And I think that doing that, is what I was calling attachment. Right. You're not just putting your bed and a desk and kind of not doing anything else. Even though you're not maybe creating a mood with the layout of your furniture or the colors of your color scheme or something, you're doing something else that then creates a feeling. and that, you're building something in conjunction with the space, I guess, is how I was saying, attachment.

Divya: okay. I feel like even though these are maybe two or three main components, it almost, to me, feels like I have somewhat enough to start building the skeletal framework for thinking about spaces. I wonder if, like, you know. I feel like I should just go and experiment a little bit with the spaces that I'm a part of, whether it is my own space or, like, with other people's spaces.

Divya: I should experiment with other people's spaces also. And then maybe I can, like, we can in future, maybe sometime discuss this or not. But I really like how we have talked about and named our podcast thinking on thinking, but I think this is the first time we have actively done the thinking on thinking, and not in a cognitive way, I guess. Like, we've always done it in a cognitive way, but this feels much more actioned. I wonder how the listeners would feel about it, but.

Kahran: Yeah, no, I know what you mean. I think sometimes we do this with each other, which is point out where we seem to be having a cognitive bias, but I don't think we've really done it on the podcast before. so I think, yeah, it was a good time.

Divya: M. Okay, bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes.

Kahran: If you found any of the topics we talked about interesting this week, we'd invite you to get in touch with us. We'd love to invite you on the podcast or just have a conversation about how these topics apply in your business and in the decisions and problems that you're struggling with. You can get in touch with us on our website, Joyous studio, or by reaching out to Divya, or me Kyung directly.