Thinking on Building Trust

This week we talk about how trust gets built between customers and brands

Kahran: Hi, I'm Karin. Hi, I'm Divya, and welcome to episode 15 of thinking on thinking. This week, we spend a lot of time talking about trust, and looking at how does trust get built, between customers and brands. When is that trust built on key moments. And when is that trust built? Gradually, over many experiences, we talk about how moments can lead to, a growth in trust and what comes out of that, and also how sometimes things can erode trust and talk through some examples of when that has happened and why we feel like that does, happen and continues to happen. We, hope you enjoy this week.

What is needed for loyalty is this thing that's called practical trust and emotional trust

We had a lot of fun recording.

Divya: Let me put it like this. We have a bunch of different things that we have always found interesting and that we have been trying to talk about in different ways. And initially, I was just thinking the way we have distinguished them, which is like, one is us with the company, one is company with its own customers, and one is us towards the customers. those three distinctions feel right, but as we kept thinking about it more, it doesn't seem right. but today, like, right now, when you were talking about it, something just clicked in my brain, and, I was thinking that, sure, we know that we want to be working towards loyalty and trust, and, like, those are the kind of things that we want to be building towards for our customers, for our clients. What is needed for loyalty is this thing that. So, I have heard of this concept more in context of human conversations and human connections. but it's this idea of, practical trust and emotional trust. And in the context of human connection, it is, practical trust is I trust you to do your thing well.

Kahran: Okay.

Divya: Like, in a work context, let's say, I trust you to perform the task that is assigned to you. Well. and emotional trust is I trust you to have my back if I fail or if I fall.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: And you can think of many organizations where one is lacking or the other.

Kahran: Is lacking in, their attitude towards their employees or towards their customers.

Divya: Towards their employees. Like, you would have worked in environments where you felt like there was a lack, extreme lack of emotional trust, or an extreme lack of. You might have felt overburdened in environments where you had a lot of emotional trust, but extreme lack of practical trust. Now I'm just, like, trying to expand that thing. and there are certain things that would build emotional trust with the brand, which is, like, the stuff that we have talked about, which is values and which is, all of these things, which the brand sort of like, subconsciously communicates to you the way they experiences, how they are acting. And then there is practical trust where it's like, can I actually reliably trust your product to do the thing that I'm expecting it to do? At least in my experience? Most successful brands, most successful relationships in your life, most successful work relationships in your life will have healthy balance of both. It doesnt have to be equal, but it has to be equitable in the sense that you need to get what is essential for the relationship to become strong and long term.

Kahran: Do you think one precedes the other?

Divya: in my experience, I would say different environments and different relationships might have both come at different times.

Kahran: M so I think the framing youve said make sense to me, right. I think there is a question of, like, can you fulfill the kind of, need that I had, that I came here for? Right. I came here to do something. I've interacted with your brand or this person or this, experience for something. And then I think, the best brands, I think, have kind of realized that when something goes wrong, it is an opportunity to be able to build that kind of emotional trust. Because a lot of times there's no opportunity in very transactional, relationships. Like to give you kind of two examples I thought of just there, both have to do with hotels. But once I was staying at the w, I think in Paris, it was like some w Weston or something like that. And I was, using my computer in bed and fell asleep and then woke up before my flight and was like, oh, shit, my flight is very soon. and packed, up my stuff and left for the airport and my computer was under my pillow. So, and they figured it out, right? And shipping to India is not the easiest thing in the world because you have to, like, deal with customs, blah, blah. But they figured it out and they got me my computer, I think, like three days later or something. and at that point, you know, I was the CEO of a company. Like, my computer was a thing, it was a huge hassle, but it was amazing and I've never forgotten it. Right? Like, it's built so much trust from that experience. similarly, I think, the reason why Gaurav and I like the Oberoi so much in India, which is this hotel chain, there are not a ton of overweights in India, I think maybe like ten or something, like, but it's not like the other, big, five star hotel chains. But like, whenever we've had something go wrong and I think because we stayed with overweight. A lot of times when we've had weird stuff, like we were wedding shopping or we were, like, running around. there's always this opportunity where, like, you just feel so that people are there for you, you know, like, whatever may come. Like, they're always, they're always looking at every opportunity as a way to, like, say, how can we show you that we are there for you? like, I remember one person. just to give you a small example, we were staying in Mumbai when we were, again, doing wedding clothing shopping, and we, had to get a COVID test. And we had planned to get a COVID test. we planned to use a different, basically get a cope test in a different way. And that fell through the last minute. And this woman, like, she gave her contact information because, like, I. That was the only way the guy would show up. She got someone to come to our hotel room and, like, and then because it was her contact, like, her personal contact info, she actually got the test reports, which she felt really bad about. And then she, like, forwarded them to us. But it was like, all these things, right, where she, like, right. Someone had to kind of go through all the work to make sure it happened, and someone did. They didn't just, like, give it to me and be like, oh, yeah, call this number. Which is why in a lot of situations, like, that's what happens, right? They're like, oh, yeah, we found someone be able to help you. You'll have to call them and set it up, but they want to make sure, like, you're going to be taken care of. Even when things do go wrong, where you need something unusual.

Have you had emotional trust built with a brand where you need help

Divya: I wonder if you have had experiences where this is. so of course there is, you made a mistake or you need help, right? Like, this is one category, but have you had emotional trust built with a brand where you just felt like, oh, I didn't even know that I needed to be taken care of in this way. And that, like, almost makes you feel extra seen. Like, I didn't know this need of mine, and you saw it.

Kahran: you know, there's a client or a potential client for us, in Delhi in the luxury clothing space. Part of what really attracted me to that business was really that. Right, like, like, when you. When you walk in, and the gentleman's name is suket. And when you meet suket, like, like, he really just. Just, makes you feel, so clothing has never just been a thing that I feel super connected to. Like, it's just been always kind of hard for me to, like, to navigate, like, I don't know, people just. Some people have, like, a really instinctual understanding of, like, fashion, and it's not something that I really felt like I came from. but I feel like. Like, suket was able to kind of be like, this will make you happy. And I think the thing that was really impressive was, like, now I look at those clothes, and they make me happier than they did in the store. Like, I didn't realize when I was buying, I was kind of nervous about them when I was buying them. But now I see, like, I choose to wear. I have these crazy pants that I bought from him that, like, have a print of these maharajas and maharanis playing golf and, like, running around. It's beautiful. It's also floral. There's these huge. It's the most crazy print. Right? They're, forest green.

Divya: Oh, it's like that jacket that I have, which has, like, all of these japanese women on it.

Kahran: Correct, correct. Except imagine if they were, like, playing modern activities. I think you've seen the pants. I don't know, but I'll show them to you.

Divya: I haven't.

Kahran: And they have a strip of velvet down the side. Right. They're like. They're so over the top, but I've worn them so many times since. Right. And I was so hesitant about it when I was buying them, but. But it was something that. And I don't own anything like, it. It's not like he looked at it and was like, oh, you know, you should be in this direction. But I think even as I was browsing through, he was like, I think you're on, like, your prince journey. m anyway, so, long story short, I feel like, in this case, here was something where I felt like I was. It's something I wish I was better at. And then this brand made me feel like I was better at it.

Divya: No, I see how that would. I see how that would be a thing. I think that that is what happened with me. And when I started using Nike run club, like, all of the coaching on, like, the run club app, it made me feel like I can run. All of the questions of, oh, I'm not running fast enough, and I'm not running well enough. Like, just. It literally felt like, what? I haven't had sports coaching. I am not somebody who is athletic, was never athletic. And just having somebody not sort of beating down on me, but actually telling me, no, you do your best. And that's what and I know it's recorded and all of that, but still, it was such a perspective shift that I almost felt like, oh, I'm exploring a part of me that I wish was better, but I didn't know how to make better. And that generated a lot of trust with them. Now, of course, I've always known that Nike is a brand that supports so many sports people, so, of course, they're probably very good at what they do.

Kahran: no, what I was going to ask is, do you feel like there was an inflection point in that relationship or it would just slowly grew or decision point? Maybe inflection point is the wrong word, actually.

Divya: I mean, I was already running, but I was struggling with it.

Kahran: was there, like, a point where you had an injury where you didn't know what to do? And it was like, oh, you know, it was there for me. Or just like, was it, you know, every day you. You put another.

Divya: I mean, I felt like I was a bad runner. It's so tedious. Like, how can I not even run a kilometer? This is so horrible. And, like, listening to them made me feel like, oh, it's okay. It's okay if I can't. And I think that is what sort of changed for me. It was just like a repeated exposure. But then I also know that, like, with most workout related things, it is about repeated exposure to the thing. You just go there again and again, and almost like, the emotional trust I had in brand helped me build practical trust in myself that I could do this.

Kahran: Do you feel like that is weaker than the. When there's been, an event? The example I was thinking about while you were talking was an airline, right? So I. There's a certain airline called Alaska that's very big in Seattle, where I grew up. And I have a lot of loyalty to Alaska Airlines because I spent so, so many times on one of their airplanes and had good experiences. But the thing that I've realized is when I have not as good experiences, that can sometimes erode my feelings about. About the airline because it's not so much built on. Like, there hasn't been key moments where I felt like they've really been there for me. It's been this gradual upswell of, like, good moments. But I feel like there could also be a gradual downswell, which is different than how I feel about, like, I would be more forgiving of organizations that I felt like had been there for me in key moments. And I was curious whether you feel similarly.

Divya: I wonder if it is person dependent because I don't think that I trust singular moment events as much. Like, so, for me, if I were to say mathematically, I think I trust peaks a lot less than I trust area under the curve. So even if a, brand has given me, or that's, like, what's coming to mind right now, but, like, even if a brand has given me one or two good experiences, I don't think that. I feel like, m this is it. It has to be over time. It has to be like, I think.

Kahran: That'S because we start from different positions of trust.

Divya: Okay.

Like, I was thinking about this. Like, I like to start from positions of trust

Kahran: Like, I was thinking about this. So there's this tool that I was reading about, a couple of days ago on this website called, there's an AI for that, and it's called clear voice. And clear voice will remove all the filler words and pauses and, you know, dead space from a podcast. So I was like, this is great. I'll, upload ours and see what happens. And so I uploaded it, and it was like, oh, this podcast is over 30 minutes. You only have 30 minutes of free credits. and it was ten, euro to pay for more credits. And so I was like, cello, right? Like, I wouldn't start from the point of saying, like, oh, this thing doesn't work. Like, do I even know if this works? Should I even pay for it? Like, maybe I'll upload something and see if it works. I'm like, I'll start from a position of, like, trust. Like, I like to start from positions of trust. And I'm like, I will have you. You can have my trust until you give me a reason to not have trust.

Divya: I don't think I start from position of distrust.

Kahran: But you're starting.

Divya: But I do think I start from zero. I'm not starting from a plus ten for most things.

Kahran: Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Because it's not like I can't start from zero, but most things will start from a plus ten.

Divya: Yeah. Like, I have friends. like, one friend comes to mind who always starts from minus ten, especially when it comes to people. Like, people really have to earn her trust for them to, like, you know, be let in almost. I know that, like, with people, I generally start from, like, a slightly more positive. I don't start from zero. I start from, like, slightly in a generous place.

Kahran: So not to take us too much aside, but it was a very deliberate choice for me. Like, I remember when I was like, oh, this is a thing. And I will also be like this. So when I went to work for Aditi, in 2013. I kind of realized that that was what felt so unique to me about this organization. Like, my dad is not someone who's very good at, Aditi is the company my father started. my dad is not someone who's very good at controls or good at putting processes into place in an organization, but what he's very good at is making people feel that he trusts them. And so he created this kind of, like, feeling that you were trusted through the organization, and people rise to the challenge in a lot of ways. Right. People feel because losing the trust is almost like. It's like the loss aversion kicks in, right? And it's something that feels so precious to them.

Divya: I mean, your dad definitely has, like, I believe in you, aura. Like, okay, you believe in me. I will believe in myself too. Like, I was telling you, this is just a funny thing. But, like, after talking to him in your wedding and him being like, yes, anshul, climb the stairs, this is one of the keys that has kept me feeling like, yes, I can do physical things. I should not let things go. And after that, I've been trying to climb twelve floors. It's such a weird thing. Like, my brother has been doing it for years. At this point, he does not take the lift unless his foot is broken or sprained or something. But, like, when Pradeep said that, I was like, yes, I should also do this. I can do this. I can see how he can create that feeling of almost, like, unconditional belief in your ability to rise to the challenge kind of a thing.

Kahran: And, I think it's almost just like, I almost would put it as trust. It's like trust because it is so much in you. Like, you trust in yourself.

Kahran: It's a very interesting thing for organizations. I haven't felt that way so much. And consumer, as a consumer, basically, like, I don't know if there's that many businesses that made me feel that way as a consumer.

Divya: Yeah, I think it's a very fair thing. I think most businesses have very little trust in their customers, in their consumers, users, whatever they want to call them, and in the relationship. Like, if you look at most social media, their thought processes, if we do not keep our algorithms alive, people will leave. And there's almost this insecurity about the value of the relationship, insecurity about the value you're delivering to your end customer. Like, there is very little trust in that whatever you have built is gonna stand.

Kahran: I feel like the brands I can think of that do have some of that feeling tend to be the luxury brands. And it's interesting because I think you and I have been talking a little bit about, having more specific offerings for luxury brands. And I think it's really interesting because I like being in that place personally. Right. I like being in a place where we can, operate from a place of trust. but like, the few I could think about, like Nordstrom is this retailer out of Seattle. that there's all these stories about how Nordstrom will let people return anything. Right. I think we may have talked about this on the podcast before. So there's one story about Nordstrom is, like an urban legend, but it's actually true that once at Nordstrom came, in where there used to be a tire shop. And so one day, a year after the store had opened, someone came and wanted to return a tire. And Nordstrom is a clothing retail store. And, they took it. and this is like, kind of like Nordstrom's attitude about its customers, right? Is that like, you know, we want to try and find a way to, like, make it work for you. And a lot of times in their world, that means letting people return things, even when, you know, they may have worn them, something may have happened.

Divya: that kind of sounds like. What was that shoe brand? Zappos.

Kahran: Yeah. They would say they're from a similar mentality.

Divya: Like, their customer service was almost at that level as well, where they were like, we will do everything for you, but not in a patronizing way, but in a we care for you kind of way.

Kahran: Yeah. And I feel like some of the, like, the really fine dining or high end hotels, they really come from that place. But I think it's not necessarily from the same. It's like a more cold calculus, I.

Divya: Feel in that world, maybe to some degree. but like, I remember, for example, we had gone for dinner with a friend in the Oberoi, and there was in Bangalore, and we were looking at their menu.

Tell stories that tell the values of an organization

We were in the thai restaurant, we were looking at their menu. And, there wasn't any dessert that appealed to us. And after some time of us being like, oh, this isn't good, this isn't good. The guy just came to us, whoever was serving there, and he was like, what kind of desserts do you like? And we were like, okay, we like Atiramisu and we like this. And he just got those for us from the different restaurants. And he didn't have to, we didn't call him we didn't think that would be an option because generally your mental model is, whatever is on the menu is going to be served to you. But he saw our willingness to have a desert, and he saw that as the cue. So I'm sure that there is calculation there because, like, now I remember this thing. But at the same time, like, I also feel like it's very cultural because I'm sure those moments arise for them. For me, that moment is maybe gonna happen one or two times, but for them, those moments are gonna arise multiple times a day. And are they able to leverage it every single time?

Kahran: Yeah. In some ways, this reminds me about what we were talking about last week. though there we were talking about in the context more of financial controls. What I was saying is, I feel like you can kind of percolate through an organization. Like, oh, you know, we value every dollar we need to make sure that everything can be accounted for. Similarly, I think, like, for Nordstrom. Right? The fact that they have this story, of, like, yeah, we will accept a tire being returned. Like, that sets atone for the organization that then everyone understands. Like, oh, yeah, this is the kind of story that tells us how we should behave. That is a really interesting thought I just had.

Divya: Okay.

Kahran: Stories are what tell us values. Like the stories of an organization and the stories that people choose to retell, the stories that people choose to cherish, those are what are the values and what tell the values of an organization.

Divya: that also feels more right for what we are trying to do, because, like, this has been, now that you've said it, it has been a nagging feeling in m the back of my mind that we're not leaning enough into the storytelling or, like, the. I don't know, that build whatever that, like, brand building is, like, just the wrong word for it, but, like, that side of things. But if we are thinking so much about values, then there has to be something, quote unquote fluffy but concrete.

Kahran: Yeah.

Have there been moments when your trust in a brand depleted because practical trust broke

Divya: so I have a different question. Have there been moments when, like, your trust was, I would say you had a lot of emotional trust in a brand, but it got depleted because the practical trust broke. Like, have you had those kind of moments? And it can be from both sides, right? It could be from just, like, slow building up of trust can happen. Slow depletion happened, or slow, or a rapid one event happened, and you were like, okay, I'm done with this.

Kahran: Yeah, I can think of quite a few. actually, yeah, I feel like I can think of several. I'll start with some of the bigger idea ones. I feel like I had a lot of trust in my kind of ayurveda that I think got built by a lot of people who are telling me about ayurveda, like, just people I really respected, kind of shared their opinions. And I wouldn't say that it's, like, erode. I mean, I would say it's eroded a little bit because I've had some experiences, which have just not been successful. Right. Like, we're kind of. I had, I guess. And this is what you're saying, right. Because the practical trust got eroded, the emotional trust got a little bit eroded as well. And I think now I've, like, because I still have a nush, emotional trust, I qualify it where I'm like, oh, yeah. I think it was just that doctor, right. I'm willing to, like, try again. And I have had some experiences that have been positive, so I'm willing to kind of say, like, oh, yeah. You know, maybe there's just, like, unclear what's happening. Right. but I think. Right. So I think when things don't fulfill the thing you've hired them for, it can be tough. Now, I'll give you a different example. Gaurav and I stayed, in Airbnb, at the end of Cape Cod in this place called Provincetown. And when we stayed in the Airbnb, we realized that there was not. It was not en suite, there was no bathroom. and we were, like, very surprised. Right. because it said that there was a private bathroom, but it was a private bathroom down the hall with a label being like, this is for this room. And, like, other people had a shared bathroom, and you did have a private bathroom. Technically, it, ah, just wasn't in your room. but it actually was kind of fine. And I think it was. It was because when we got there, there was, like, the innkeeper was really friendly, and he really made this point of, like, you know, taking us around and, like, he did all these things to kind of, like, build emotional trust. Right. He was telling us about, like, places to go and, like, how. And so because of that, like, here was something that. That could have eroded it because it was like, our practical expectation was not there. but we kind of managed to get past it.

Divya: M.

Kahran: But I think the most interesting example, at least to me, about myself, is that I had a trainer this past year, and I think some members of our, early listeners of our podcast may remember me talking about it, most of last summer, I had a trainer. And despite me kind of talking to the trainer about how I have a history of injury, I kind of was very injured at the end of three months. not very injured, but, like, you know, my range of motion was much less, than I think when I started. I think I had maintained m some strength, but my ability to kind of just, you know, function in day to day life had been. Have been, affected in a negative way. Yeah, I would say, like, even though I liked him a lot personally. And so, and this, I was training at a place that I actually used to swim for. So when I was young, from about the age of six till I think I was 15, I swam, a club, and the club was called the pro club, right. So this is a place I have a long history with. A lot of trust has been built over the years. someone when I, like, came back as an adult was like, oh, sir, were you, like, a member 15 years ago? And I was like, yes. And I was like, and those little things make you feel seen. They make you feel, like, this is a place for you. So, but even then, right, like you do. And again, like, I find myself, I'll always make excuses. I'm like, oh, maybe they're hiring. Kind of went down during COVID And it was hard for them to have as many physical trainers and so many people retired and left the profession. Maybe that's why they did a bad hiring job here. Because even as I think about it, I made an excuse for it, because I have so much emotional trust, right. That even though they practically failed me, sure, it's eroded. Sob. But I managed, to make my excuses in my head.

Divya: Do you feel like that removed your trust from the space itself, the fact that you didn't like your trainer?

Kahran: No, no. So that's what I was saying, right. That even as I think about it, I've already made excuses in my head, right? Where I'm like, oh, no, maybe because of COVID all their trainers retired, and they had to hire in a hurry, and so their hiring capabilities were less and they weren't able to kind of put as good policies in place. Also, I created a whole story in my head that, like, maybe trainers in the US are just not as well trained as in India seems possible. But also, I don't know. I don't have much basis for that. but, right. Because I have so much trust in the institution, I have assigned blame to other places.

Divya: So as humans, we generally do not like to reject people. Things like getting rejected is bad, but giving out rejections is also horrible. We have talked about this on an earlier podcast episode where we were talking about experiences of firing people or getting fired and stuff like that. and I wonder if it's one of those things where we find it easier to give excuses, but practically, we are never going to go there again. Or, practically, we are not going to engage with the brand again, even if we want to maintain a positive relationship emotionally in our minds.

Kahran: That is interesting because I don't feel like I would get another trainer there. Like, I would join the club again. Right. And I still love the club, but I don't know if I would get another trainer.

Divya: At least there, you know, it's one of those things. if I were to say it in terms of human relationships, it's almost like when people say post breakup, oh, we're gonna be friends, but then, like, you're not. Like, let's be honest, not always, but there are certain cases where you say that you're going to be friends and you want to be friends, but also a very solid part of you is like, no, I'm so glad I'm away from this person, and I don't want to be friends with them anymore.

Kahran: Yeah. And not to go too far down this aside, but I do think there's, a thing around. How so? like, when I had my big breakup, like, I. I think the motivator for when I was saying that we're going to be friends was not the same as when we actually were. Like, now we are friends, right? Like, there's a.

There's a desire to hold on to something that's pushing you

There's a desire to, like, hold on to something that's pushing you. It's not a desire. It's a. It's. It's a. It's a past motivator, not a future motivator. Like, m. It's a loss aversion motivator, not like a. Like a. Yeah.

I had a new therapist who is more emotion focused than my previous therapist

Divya: It's also very interesting because, like, what you are saying is also, making me think about. I had a new therapist conversation today. Like, the first time I started with this therapist, and towards the end, so she, is someone who is more emotion focused in her work. And my previous therapist was very cognitive focused, and I had started feeling like, I don't think more cognitive work is helping me. the analogy that I gave this therapist who, like, laughed a lot at it and was like, yeah, I agree with this. Like, I feel like my. The cognitive side of my brain has been going to the gym for ten years while the emotional side has been sitting on the sofa and eating potatoes. So like now I need to send the emotional side to the gym also. And like, it starts crying very quickly. So I need a better trainer for it. But like, this therapist asked me that, what is going to be your long term motivation for this? Because as much as you're motivated right now, and I can tell that you'd be able to do this right now, what is going to keep you doing this in the long term when things actually get hard? And I think when people say, like bringing it back to rather than relationships, but more towards brands and stuff, like when people say, oh, oh, yeah, I had one bad experience, but I will not leave this brand. But over time, what they end up doing is they find more and more reasons, oh, it's just inconvenient to use this brand right now. Oh, the wait times are too long. Maybe I don't want to spend this much right now. They're a little bit inconvenient in the location I'm in and buy like, you know, in a couple of years or months or whatever is the cycle for the use of product or service, you stop using it.

Kahran: I wonder if we do something similar to what that old Maxim is about managers and organizations, that people get, promoted to their point of incompetency. do you know what I'm talking about? Have you ever heard this? Yeah, it's like some old expression. So I wonder if something similar happens with brands where we have this tendency to kind of, especially when we like them, connect with them more and more and more until we find something that we're not happy with. And then it's like, if only we weren't trying to look for this thing from that brand, then we would have always been fine. When I just thought about this brand as fulfilling my detergent needs, it was fine. But as soon as I started saying that, like, okay, you know, my detergent brand needs to also, be, fulfill my, like, my, my need to save the world. Well, now that you're starting to like, lean into, or starting to understand more about like your need to save the world and detergent, now it's like, oh, I can not use this detergent brand. You know what I'm saying? That was kind of a bad example.

Divya: Because, no, no, no, I get what you're saying, but I also, I have slight disagreement. Of course, sometimes you can be greedy about the relationship, but sometimes also your needs change or your values change. Like, think of it like you know, some people have friends from high school and, like, let's say you had, like, you know, ten friends and you were in high school. You might retain one of them by the time you are in your late twenties. And, I'm not counting you because you have a lot of friends from school. But, like, I have one friend from school. A lot of my friends who were friends in college, I'm not in touch with anymore.

Kahran: No.

Divya: And it's nothing.

Kahran: This is, I hear you, though. This is not what I was trying to say. No. I think, like, if you think about some brands, like, maybe I'll take, like, apple as an example, right? That what can happen is that you are like, oh, this computer is great, or this phone is great, and now you, you buy the next thing, right? So now you buy the watch or then you buy the Airpods, or the earphones, right? Now what I feel like can happen is there's these quirks to a brand or quirks to a person or quirks to a thing, right. That, like, they didn't bother you when you were engaging with them only at one level. But now that you've started to have, you know, having so much of it in your life, now it goes from where, like, oh, like, this is just so annoying. I wish that Apple would just let me edit the, you know, change the gain on my microphone. Why do you never give me settings in any of my products? And something that was just, it was just like a small little thing that was almost kind of cute when it was one thing. When it becomes around you all of your life, you look at the brand and you're like, God damn it, this is annoying.

Divya: But there, I don't think I like, if it was in terms of relationship, right, I would say, maybe taking a step back is a better idea. But in terms of brands, I don't know if I even agree with the fact that it's the customer's over expectations. Like, the brand has set it up as, like, for example, in case of Apple, it has set it up as a one stop solution for all of your electronic needs, the entire ecosystem, you will have. And they pride themselves on their convenience, and they pride themselves on their user centricity. Windows has so many problems. People complain about it and they keep using it because they do not expect that, because Windows has not created that expectation. As an Android user, I don't expect 100% compatibility with things. I expect, it's gonna be a little bit buggy at times, but, like, used to be way I used to be way more tolerant of bugs when I was on Xiaomi than when I am now on OnePlus, because I have paid more for it, and OnePlus has promised me more. A lot of times, when this discord starts happening between brands and customers, I feel like it's because brands are trying to get away with more than they're able to deliver.

Kahran: I hear you on that. So there's this great coffee place I went to today, and I find it's a lovely place to go and catch up with a friend. Now, I don't try and do interviews there, and I suspect if I tried to do interviews there, I would get frustrated with, like, there's no power plugs. Like, it kind of feels like people are, like, everyone's kind of watching each other because it's kind of that kind of place a little bit, right. And it would just be like, there's not enough privacy, and I feel like it would erode my enjoyment of that place. Right. It would be very subconscious, but I would just be like, ah. You know, I went from, like, always having a hundred percent great experiences, though. I have, like, 80% great experiences.

Is the coffee shop positioned as a coffee shop or is it chill

Divya: Okay, I have a question. Is the coffee shop, positioned as a coffee shop, or is it positioned, like, just in the ambience of what it is? Is it positioned as a chill time, or is it positioned as a, Could be chill, could be efficient time. Like blue toke, for example, has. Could be chill, could be efficient, kind of.

Kahran: No, no, it feels very chill. Right. All of the way. The plants are, the seating is. It's all set up. Either if you're there with someone, you're there to chat for an extended period, or there's some seating in the back. But that's really designed for you to read. Like, it's meant, like, you're coming with a book and you're coming to do something quietly. but no, it's all expecting that you're there for 45 minutes, an hour, 2 hours. It's not like, are you coming in and getting a coffee and leaving? There's not even a bill. Like, you can't even see the coffee when you walk up. You have to sit down, get a menu, then only you see.

Divya: So then I would say that, like, they have branded themselves correctly. They have positioned themselves correctly. Right? Like, it's not a coffee place. It is a place for you to chill and hang out, but, like, not hang out hang out, like, with a lot of friends. It's for, like, you know, coffee and conversations, but with a relaxed space.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Kind of a vibe. Right. So I feel like that's not, I mean, then I would say it's wrong on you as a customer to expect that it should also be your interview place. But if they, let's say, placed, so this is a good example. If they placed power plugs everywhere but the tables are too close by, you really can't have work conversations in that scenario.

Kahran: Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense. And I think, it's just kind of somewhere in being intentional in how you're creating the experience. Right. So that then people do have the right expectations. And so, like, in some ways, you. Yeah, like, you could be building more trust or fulfilling more kinds of needs for your customers. But if you. I think. I think what we're saying is, like, there's a practical aspect and an emotional aspect whenever you fulfill a need. And if you start fulfilling practical needs without thinking about the emotional needs and therefore emotional expectations you're creating from it, it can lead into this difficult situation for the brand because the customers have an expectation, because you're practically fulfilling something for them, but you're not expecting that expectation, so you don't fulfill the emotional need that's come with the practical fulfillment.

Divya: And m. I would also imagine that if you just fulfill practical needs, you will end up, I would say, in a position where you are quickly replaceable. Like, if a better option comes along, people are going to replace you because all they have is you are doing things reliably well, and if someone else gives them doing things reliably well, and then some, they're gonna go there.

Kahran: Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

M. Yeah, I think this is interesting. I feel like we arrived at something interesting here

Divya: M. I feel like we arrived at something interesting here.

Kahran: Yeah, I think this is interesting. I think it's given me some interesting thoughts that I'm going to try and write up a little bit. Ah. As we add more content to our website and keep publishing. So good chat.

Divya: Yes. Yeah, good chat.

Kahran: Talk to you soon.

Divya: Bye bye.

If you found any of the topics we talked about interesting this week, we'd invite you to get in touch

Divya: Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes.

Kahran: If you found any of the topics we talked about interesting this week, we'd invite you to get in touch with us. We'd love to invite you on the podcast or just have a conversation about how these topics apply in your business and in the decisions and problems that you're struggling with. You can get in touch with us on our website, Joyus studio, or by reaching out to Divyat, or me, Karun directly.