Kahran and Divya explore how the efforts to be unique can lead to conforming. Exploring the role of ambition, artistic communities and how the costs and perceived costs drive noncomfority.
Kahran and Divya explore how the efforts to be unique can lead to conforming. Exploring the role of ambition, artistic communities and how the costs and perceived costs drive noncomfority.
There's a paradox in being unique: the harder you try to stand out, the more you end up conforming to someone else's definition of different.
True uniqueness isn't performed. It's what's left when you stop trying to be anything other than what you naturally are.
I guess it's funny that because I feel like there's this notion of like not wanting to stand out too much culturally, but also wanting to have some amount of uniqueness. So I went, you know, a couple of weeks ago, I think I was telling you to the Bahamas, the friend of mine, and the part of the Bahamas that we went to was very much like a vacation spot for wealthy people from the New England area, right? East Coast, old families, it felt like, right, like some amount of celebrities were there. And it was just interesting how much I felt like there was this desire to like fit in with your community, which felt to me like overshadowing almost this, what otherwise would be a desire to like, like stand out, which I feel like in queer circles, I see so much more, right? People are always trying to be like, you know, the brightest peacock. But I feel I kind of assumed it was everywhere. And I think now that I'm starting to pay more attention to what's happening, like culturally outside of the queer world, it's not as much true. Like there is, it feels like there also is this strong desire for conformity, like almost like we need to be with our people and not be isolated. I don't know, do you feel that way? Do you feel, go ahead.
I mean, part of it is also why people stay in closet, right? Like, in the sense that like, it's not just that you will face social rejection of the harsh variety. But there's also the social rejection of the soft variety where it's like, but I'm not like these people. And I don't behave like them and I don't think like them and I don't act like them. But they have been quote unquote my people for the last 30 years or like in the last 25 years or last 20 years. What does that mean? What does that mean for my identity? Yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, that's like loss of version in some ways, right? It's like, you have this thing that you know you have a community that you know it's like, am I going to give this up for an uncertain future? Wow.
I think that that's definitely part of it. I think there's also another interesting side of it, which you kind of hinted at, but came out in conversation I was having with this poet or rather she was speaking on a stage. I think I overheard her. But while I was in Colorado last month, whose name is Nolan, and she renamed herself to be Nolan, right? So that was not her birth name. And she was talking about, I think I've told you this, but she was talking about how her parents were not very supportive of her becoming a poet when she was young. But then once she was successful, then now her dad apparently made some joke about like that they introduced themselves as Mr. and Mrs. Land. Nolan has renamed herself in part to draw to highlight the fact that like, Land was stripped from Native Americans, and that we have just kind of like conquered and do no sort of like repatriations or even just like like acknowledgement of it. But what I think is really interesting is I feel like, again, there's this kind of thing where it's like, oh, you should conform unless, and I mean culturally here, but oh, you should conform unless you're successful in being a, I don't know, Maverick or something.
And then it's like, then it's okay. Then it's like, to be whatever you want to be, if you've kind of achieved a level of status in that. Because there is social approval in that status also, right? So it's like, this is the thing that we know is socially approved. You have to chart your path alone until you arrive at that similar kind of or actually even much higher social approval. And then it's fine. Yeah, that's what I think is cultural. So if you're thinking about that podcast we were having a few weeks ago, where I was saying that I feel uniqueness is cultural, I think that aspect of it is cultural. If there's a threshold.
Say more about that. So what about that? So some of this is based off my experiences. Some of this is based off things my friends have told me, but I have a very good friend, I think has been on the podcast, Dina. And she spent, she grew up in the US, but then spent most of her years in Europe, and spent a while working in the Netherlands. And something she and I had talked about, about the Dutch and about the Netherlands is that she finds it very frustrating, the lack of ambition, right?
That she's like, people want to live their lives and they're going to do whatever work they need to do to get the paycheck they need to be able to live their lives. And the notion of like having the ambition to kind of create more or create something or create a business is so hard to find partners when you want to go out and do something like that. The thing that I would also contend though is I feel that there's not that much cultural acceptance of this notion of like, oh, you know, we produced someone that is super different than the rest of us. They're maybe amazing, right? And so we're going to celebrate them and, you know, and exalt them. But this notion that we have produced someone that is very different than the rest of us and that should be celebrated.
I feel it's not always celebrated, especially in these more homogenous cultures. But I feel like that is less true of Europe than it is of like, you know, let's say more East Asian cultures. Oh, East Asian maybe I was gonna say South Asian, I feel is different South Asian. It's like if you have become a star, we won't it doesn't matter what kind of star. No, no, no, I mean, like, you know, like China or Japan or Korea or Taiwan, I just feel like these are cultures which are very anti don't do what other people are not doing. Like, you know, even if it kills you, like keep doing what everybody else is doing a little bit.
While I feel like in Europe, it's more at least from the way I have understood it as somebody from the global South, it's more of the privilege of having colonized the world. Like, you know, they are great, great grandparents really did make the kind of money that would let generations chill of entire nations. And I feel like it's partly that the lack of ambition is that like, you know, they're almost sort of reaping the interest on the ambition of people who existed like 200 years ago. 300 years ago, 400 years ago, like there was nobody as ambitious as I don't know the Spanish or the British or the French like 400 years ago. But it's just like, I don't know, I feel like it's not as much about they already know that they stand out and they already know that they're unique and different and special.
Who was the day in that situation? The Europeans. The Europeans. Yeah. Like people want to come to their countries from the world. Like, if even if you think about Netherlands, right?
Like, Amsterdam is a very popular destination for people across the globe. It's not a cheap destination like Thailand is where people are going because it's just easy to go. No, Amsterdam is quite expensive to go to and people still want to go there. I just want to be there. Like, the culture hub nature of it is there.
So they don't feel like they need to put in the quote unquote extra effort. And I feel like there like American history interacts with that very differently because America is a very young country. So while there is a lot of culture, all of the culture is very fresh. So it feels more like, how should I say, like that's why individuality is such a huge value. Interesting.
I don't know though, because like I would feel like I don't feel that way say about like Berlin, right? And I feel like parts of Germany that are very much like people are still striving for uniqueness and striving to create and striving to, I don't know, just yeah, exist in a way that will not be like a number. You know, and I think that Amsterdam is also like that. Like if you hang out in the artistic crowds there, it's the same. Like computational mama who was on our podcast, she's there right now.
And she's super excited about all of the collaborations that she's going to be doing. Her husband like, you know, moved to Amsterdam because he was like the theater scene is going to be so much more interesting and rich. And he's feeling that as well. He's able to do much more experimental work there. Interesting.
I genuinely feel like it might be that people have lesser desire to start businesses and entrepreneurship is lesser compared to somebody is somewhere like the US could be. I don't think that uniqueness per se is lesser. Well, it's just whether you're going to be celebrated for it, right? And where that threshold is. I mean, most of the grants and all that I like, you know, see come from Europe, like they clearly are appreciative of the arts, the number of museums, like they are doing it.
Like, I don't know, I do disagree on this point. I don't think that they don't have ambition to make a lot of money, but I don't think that they don't have ambition to be different. Hmm, which is not quite what I'm saying, though, right? So that's why I want to draw the distinction. I'm saying that I think that the uniqueness that the celebration of uniqueness and where that threshold is where we start to celebrate it varies wildly via culture.
And I'm saying that I think that the threshold I would set in certain cultures, I think is so much higher. Or even I don't quite know where it is for certain cultures, right? And I would say I think you're right about like East Asian cultures or and I don't know. I think certain European cultures as well, where it is that, yeah, I mean, sure, maybe if you're like, you know, best in the world, people will celebrate you. But it's like, if you're an only fan star, you know, it's going to take a long time for your culturally to be accepted, even if you are like kind of among, you know, whatever it means to be the best at only fans.
I don't know. Is it top or a top? What if I drew the truth at any bid? I don't know. I mean, I feel like here in certain circles, it's less weird or not even weird, right?
Like people will be excited for you. I just think that America is massive. Yeah, I just think that like US is massive. And like, you know, there are more subcultures, but I don't think that there is like uniqueness is. So I would say that you can think about uniqueness in two ways, right?
There is like how many local clusters are there of culture and each cluster can be called unique because there are so many different ones. Or you could be like, here is what everybody looks like or does and then you are somewhere to the side. I feel like maybe US has a lot more like local clusters and niches and subcultures, especially like a city like New York or, you know, a city like SF. They probably have like more sort of smaller groups, but there is a still a script to belong to that group. I feel we're still somehow not fully speaking at this about the same.
So let me give you one more example. So, right. Remember when the new Goldman Sachs managing partner came out? I think maybe not came out, but like was appointed maybe 15 years ago. I want to say it was so much news that he was a practicing DJ, right?
That like he produced music and he would go out and he would actually have sets and whatnot. Right. And how I just feel like, would it be as big of news? Right. Like there was all these cheeky headlines, whatever a Goldman Sachs was written about, like, you know, like maybe he should be spinning a little less music and whatnot.
And I think that just things have shifted such that it's not as weird this notion that like, sure, you know, you may be doing this thing, but you may also have something that's like super unique for someone in your role. And that's just culturally, like even at a, you know, the much broader level, much more just a reasonable notion. Okay. Whereas I'm saying that I think in other parts of the world that transition is still happening.
And so that's where the this contention I keep coming back to, which I feel like this the standard around when do we celebrate uniqueness is just varies. That's so interesting because genuinely like that has not been my experience with people who have lived in Europe and how they have talked about their lives. Like people who have lived in East Asia or South Asia or Middle East shore. I don't know. I mean, my sense of South Asia, South Asia is one which has also moved more, especially in our generation, more in the direction of this notion that like you're not going to just be one thing.
You know that like you will be very selective groups. You think so? Yeah. Yeah. 100% very, very selective groups.
That's the creme de la creme in South Asia where you have like parents who are supportive, like brown parents are not known to be supportive of their children's decisions, whether they are in mainstream or out of mainstream. So right, we both have this very good friend in Bangalore. And I know she had this lady who used to work for her who decided that she wanted to do start doing massage on Urban, what is that company called? Urban company. Yeah.
Right. And I just feel like that notion that someone who's like cleaning your house will be like, oh, I want to like do the training to become to start doing massage. It's just like, like for people at that strat of society, that notion was not accessible for a long time. Right. It was like, you are like a cleaning woman, like fine, maybe you'll go from just doing dusting and mopping to like, you know, a higher paid version of cleaning.
But the notion that you would have this kind of like relatively like shift into career to be a much higher skilled and higher paid trajectory is just not as accessible. I feel like those are two very different notions. Am I doing so? I like I'm changing something in my career to make more money. That was always like a thing in South Asia, because we are a very poor, very scarcity culture.
Anything that shows, oh, there is more opportunity here. People are gonna club to that. You know, gonna. Yeah, people are gonna like just flock to that. That is fine.
But that I feel like is a very different thing than uniqueness. That's more like, you know, oh, I have a lack in my life and I'm trying to fill that with something and whether that comes in form of like, you know, Uber has allowed for cars. So now I'm going to get a car and I'm going to start driving instead of doing whatever I used to do. Or like, you know, I'm going to get trained by urban company and then start doing something there. Like that's more sort of like, you know, oh, can I actually escape my social class and get to a little bit higher, secure a better future for my family?
That feels not as motivated by uniqueness. And because in my head, at least like uniqueness is much more about expression of your own unique self. And it's not about expression. This is about like trying to solve for a financial problem. See, I would set uniqueness up in contrast with conformity.
Okay, so we agree about that. Then I feel, yeah, so the conformist thing is to, especially in these kinds of societies is to keep what you have. You're right. Don't walk away from a good job with a good employer who has, who's, you know, won't do money and whatnot. That is more dependent on the region.
No, no, no, I'm saying that's not necessary. I have seen that even in like, you know, tier two, tier three towns in Rajasthan, because Rajasthani people tend to be more entrepreneurial. So they will switch up because they want to make money similar in Gujarat. People will switch because they want to make money. On the other hand, if I go to Resort West Bengal where people are less entrepreneurial, they will like it a lot less.
They would be much more likely to stick to the thing that they have. But like, I feel like that's not necessarily coming from that same notion of uniqueness that like, of what is causing uniqueness that we were talking about earlier. Like it is genuinely that like, how should I put it? If that lady went and decided that she wanted to be a musician, her family will not be supporting her. Nobody around her will be supporting her.
They are supporting her and she's not facing social ostracization because she is making money with the promise of making quote unquote more money. So you're saying it still is conforming, but it's conforming to a broader standard. Interesting. It's conforming to the idea. So like, I would say that that's also another thing with like conformist versus individualistic cultures, right? Things that you do for the good of the larger whole do not count as non-conformist.
Even if the decision in the short term feels like non-conformist. So like, even if people around you are not doing the same quote unquote thing, if what you are doing secures a better future for your family, it is still fine. Okay. Because I was going to say like, otherwise depending on how you define around you, that could, you know, you could be like, you know, poets would be saying that I am working on behalf of improving culture, right? I'm pushing culture in a way that I'm right.
Another liberal idea of people around you, actually people around you in the way that conservatives think about it, your family circles, your family, your neighbors, your village, that. Interesting. So then do you feel like there is a drive towards so then do you feel macro forces are pushing towards more uniqueness culturally or away? And then do you do you feel that they differ based on cultures or you feel that that they definitely they definitely like operate on. I just don't think that it's a singular axis. I think like it's a multi axis problem that like, yeah, culture is one aspect of it, but you could still see aberrant behavior regardless of like, you know, where that culture axis is and you could still see acceptance of that aberrant behavior, depending on like, you know, how the other axes are moving.
I don't think like it plays some role. It plays like, you know, it has some part. But I don't know. I also just feel like it's interesting to think about uniqueness as a thing. Because how do you you can't define uniqueness without defining what is the norm, because like uniqueness is about standing out from like, this is what everybody else looks like. Or like, you know, this is what everybody else does and this is what I do. I had this like really interesting conversation because I have been like, you know, feeling a little bit of confusion around that for like, you know, a while. So back in March when I went for BHX, I had like a really interesting conversation with one of the people, but she was like, listen, I might be overstepping it. But I have seen this happen with like, you know, a lot of my queer friends, where they are stuck in this valley of like, I am so different, nobody accepts me.
But if you accept them, they are so confused because they're like, but I'm different. How could you accept me? And I want to like, you know, acceptance feels like I'm no longer separate from the group. And I just found that to be like a very interesting thing. And like that, like, that dilemma is very true. Right. Like when you have seen yourself as different from the group, if you have like, you know, if you have made your path by standing out, what happens when people around you are like, yeah, that your path seems good. So then you keep pushing the stand out more. That's what you're saying. Or something else happens because you become confused and then you start feeling like how I was feeling disconnected. So it's just like, wait, I don't get it.
And I knew that it's not about the people around me because like the people around me do accept me. But I somehow didn't feel something, some disconnection was happening. And somehow when she put this in perspective, I was like, yeah, I am doing that. I want to be accepted, but I also want to stand out. And I'm trying to sort of like, you know, overlap both of those things. You're like, oh, they can't exist together, but they can. I can be different in my actions and I can still be emotionally accepted around me. Yeah, like I would say some of the artist circles that I have met, right, especially like the community of poets I've met in Colorado, like people's works are so different.
But some people's works obviously don't resonate with each other, right? Like we all write so such different kinds of poetry and you know, some people's are more performance and whatnot, that it's not all resonant. But it's still like a very accepting sort of environment of like, what does it mean to create? And then you know, and this notions of like, in fine, what kind of behaviors are you exalting in order to be searching for those kind of things that make you feel the most satisfied. And I think that notion of like, we are all indulging in kind of similar behaviors, though they may result in seemingly very unique outcomes feels very accepted. Is that what we feel like this is about that this is like uniqueness is an outcome of relatively similar behaviors? Not always, right? Not always, not necessarily.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that's also a very unique trait of artistic communities where you're quote unquote allowed to be weird. And everything is just like all aberrant behavior is like clubbed under the group of weird and all weird is accepted or more or less all weird is accepted. Which is why the queer communities and artists communities have always got along so well. Yeah, there's also another thing I feel like there's a reason why there are so many artists who are queer and so many queer people who are artists. It's because the moment you and this is where like, I don't know about uniform like uniqueness, but like nonconformity definitely comes into picture.
Like the moment you become nonconformist on one axis, you're going to start questioning conformity along multiple axes. Yeah, yeah, like there was someone I knew in high school or no, it was college but who had grown up very religious. And then at some point we like ran into each other years after university and he like had left the religion also was no longer using like he him pronouns was like bisexual and like in a poly averse relationship with like a man animal. And like it was just like it was yeah, like you had just challenged like a lot of these notions that had grown up with and then in doing so had realized that there was just not a lot that they wanted in kind of things that had accepted as a given. Yeah, yeah.
So is it if you grew up in a unique culture or culture that celebrates uniqueness and I guess we'd have to think for a minute about what examples there might be there. But America is a culture that celebrates uniqueness more than a lot of others. Yeah, but what I was getting at though is then is it are you conforming in in being unique. Right. Like is there a possibility of that or is do those isolate.
I would imagine so because again, it's just like an instinct thing but like it would feel like you want to be accepted by the people around you. And if you feel like the way to get accepted by the people around you is to find your own special thing then you got to go and quickly find your own special thing. Like I feel like other people's expectations and behavior set both the floor of our behavior and like the ceiling of our behavior. Sometimes we call something non conformist when we think that it's breaking off of the ceiling. But I would also say that like depending on the cultural norm around you, you can actually get a very high floor as well.
You know, think about that one. Sometimes we call something non conformist when it has a very high ceiling but you can also get breaking off the floor as well. Like I said, our culture our culture defines the floor and the ceiling of what is norm. Right. Like anything that happens between these two is not non conformity is when you break off the ceiling.
But sometimes your culture could actually raise the floor as well. The example that I was giving earlier about how like in Rajasthan it is norm to be money-minded and to take decisions which are more financially enriching while in Bengal it isn't. And like most of my Bengali friends were trained in at least one of the arts and it was just so unusual for a Rajasthani kid to be trained in any of the arts formally when they were like, you know, young. Because like that was just not the norm. Like you just didn't do that.
But on the other hand in Bengal, you just did that like so you have to learn how to sing or dance or draw or like, you know, write something. You have to know how to do one of those things. Since you are a kid is that's just expected. But do you feel like that makes you? What does that do if that's the norm?
Yeah, so I don't know. Like that's what I'm saying that I'm sure it would. How should I put it? Like it's only different if you break free. I was having this conversation maybe more than 10 years ago with a friend and he had like, you know, just broken free from religion and he was like, man, people who are religious are just so stupid and like people who are atheists are not.
And I was like, well, that's only applicable if you have philosophically thought about why you are an atheist. If you were born to atheists parents and you decided to be an atheist, then like you didn't really decide to be an atheist. Your parents just gave you that culture. It's the same as if you were born in a Hindu family and you became quote unquote, you became a Hindu. You didn't like, you know, that was the norm disclaimer.
I don't think that atheists are specifically smarter or stupider than religious people are. I haven't thought about that, but I don't know if we won't do it. Now we're here. I feel like it's something that I was reading this interview this morning with Brian Johnson and he's that guy who's like trying to live forever. And someone was talking to him about like, don't you get bored about eating the same thing every day?
And he's like, oh, I have limited neural capacity. You know, I'd rather put my mind's abilities into questions that really matter and not have to worry about the small questions that don't matter. And it was interesting thinking about that because I feel like in some ways religion lets you do that. Right. Like it's you can spend so much of your life kind of contemplating these questions of like, what is the meaning of existence?
Right. Like what will happen to these people I care about when they're dead and gone? Right. Like what is the nature of reality even? And it kind of gives you these ways to answer those questions in a kind of good enough sort of way where it's like, these don't have to require cycles of your mind.
It's just really interesting because you'll hear atheists like Brian Johnson is an atheist, right? And you'll hear them speak about like, you know, the foolishness of religion and like the importance of like holding on to like, you know, your ability to kind of use your mind because those seem to go hand in hand almost. And that it's it's interesting because it feels like in a lot of ways it solves the same questions, right? It lets you focus your attention on the things that quote unquote matter to you. But that is sort of assuming as if you cared about those questions.
How often do I think about what happens to people I love after they die? Never. Well, even when they have died. Yeah, that one I give you. But I think if you're if you're feeling about the nature of existence and reality is in a certain way, it can make it a lot easier to motivate yourself.
Whereas if it comes from a different direction, it can make it so that there's just an extra burden for a lot of things that you may be chasing. I mean, if you're constantly worried about no, no, if you're constantly worried about sin and art is what I'm doing, sinful or not. Like that's also cognitive load. I just feel like, you know, I don't know if religion is a cognitively cheaper thing is all I'm saying. Sometimes like nothing matters and absurd is the answer is also a very valid cognitively cheap response to get to.
Like if you look at some of the like Renaissance and later enlightenment like like artists, right? Like a lot of what they felt was that in the creation process, they were celebrating God like that. There was this whole notion also because church and religious people were the ones who had money. Yes, absolutely. I'm sorry. Capitalism, not religion. Capitalism.
But I think that it can make it so that you know, in the days when you don't feel like doing something, there's almost like a higher reason or like a greater good kind of thing that can help motivate you to kind of create. I just think that that is different people have structured their brain differently. As in like, you know, they have structured their mental models differently. Like I used to I grew up religious. I didn't I'm not anymore. I don't think my motivation levels were ever affected by that. We are really good at motivated reasoning, right? So we can lead the reasoning in either direction.
How much do you feel like it matters what the story you tell to yourself about it? I don't tell myself in a story about it also. No, let me rephrase that. So what I mean is like, even if I zoom back to where we were a few minutes ago, right, like, you could be unique or doing stuff that is perceived as unique, but be conformist to the society or group that you're within. And so I'm curious, like, when you think about this, how much do you feel like the story of what you are telling yourself about what you are doing matters for the outcomes? I think that's the only thing that matters for the outcomes, though. Or does it just matter for like, will the outcome be the same for anything?
For anything. I think what the story you tell yourself is the only thing that matters because at least like that's where I'm at. Who cares? Like, you know, what is the quote unquote truth? If you have decided truth one way or the other, you're going to act as if that's true one way or the other. So then ultimately, only that matters. So like, let's say, for example, when I'm a closest friends, forever, she has had like, we've known each other for 18 years, and like forever, she's had this articulation that it's not, I'm not a part of the flock. If I know why I'm going in the direction I'm going, even if I'm going in the same direction that everybody else is going in, I'm not a sheep. And that's the story that she's telling herself. For me, maybe it is more that like, oh, I go orthogonal. But do I? Like, I'm still, you know, the same 90% of my life is similar to anybody else.
It's not like that quote unquote unique, but it is a story that I'm telling myself. And so that story keeps me going, keeps me waking up doing something different every day. And especially I feel like with uniqueness, this is something that I have observed that like, you sort of niche into specific social clusters. So like, I'm not that unique in my social cluster, right? Like, so for example, yesterday when we had that the day before yesterday when we had that conversation with this new client that we have just started working with. And after your introduction, they were like, how do you do so many things? I'm surprised by the way also how has she done so many things.
And like, I remember thinking at that point, you didn't talk about investment, you didn't talk about French cooking, you didn't talk about Katak. Like, there's so many things that you haven't talked about. But also like, I'm not unusual, you are not unusual in our like, you're not unusual in your friend circle, I'm not unusual in my friend circle. That's not entirely true. Both of our friends are like, sometimes how are you doing so many things? Sometimes, but not all of them. Like, I know that for example, my siblings are like me.
Yeah, Baron is like me. There are like multiple other people who I know who are like me. Yeah. This is also like, it depends on how much the uniqueness story matters to me versus matters to you versus matters to those people. So like when they are not as like, you know, attached to the idea of uniqueness, they might be continuing to do unique things and still feel like they're not being particularly unique. And vice versa. I just have this thought. But I wonder if the people who are kind of being like, like so amazed by that are ones who would feel a sense of identity if they could see themselves as unique.
Or maybe I should say it like reclaim a sense of identity that otherwise they're not able to access if they could see themselves as unique. And so there's almost a sense of like, if not quite jealousy, like, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. Honestly, because like most people we would come across will have reasonably high agency in life. They've not taken everyone wants to be unique. No.
I think it's a Gaussian plot. Some people are on like, you know, this edge and some people are on this edge of the desire. And some people are in the middle. So they're like, yeah, I want to be unique about two or three things, but not about everything. Like, you know, I am somebody who works in finance, but also every weekend I go climbing, like, you know, in areas nearby the city. I'm like, what a weird thing to do. Sure. I like, oh, I'm working in like a tech company, but also I have a farm where I grow roses. I don't know something. And it's like that's about that one thing is unique enough. And then there would be people like you and me who would be like, oh, who I date has to be different and who I work with has to be different.
And how I work has to be different. And what I work on has to be different. And how I travel has to be different. Like, you know, it's just, I feel like it's an appetite, individual appetite thing. Well, it doesn't really cost me much versus the notion of like, not optimizing the thing I care about because there's like some standard of like conformity feels asinine, you know, like just because, you know, Imagine if imagine if it did cost you a lot. Imagine if like, you know, people think, oh, Kahran, you're so different. Made you feel not pride, but a little bit of feeling of being left out. Well, I mean, I do like, you know, I'm very hyper conscious of like, when I'm walking down the street and people are looking at me, right? So like I am. But I still dress a lot of the times in ways where I'm like, I will give you something to look at.
Because you don't dislike that, that attention. Many people dislike the attention. I just do it. I mean, I find myself speculating about what they're thinking about that I have to really stop that loop in my head. And being like, listen, how often do I spend more than 10s, like not even 10 seconds, three milliseconds on like someone who I walk by, you know, I live in New York City, you pass 100 people in an hour or even in 10 minutes, not even, you know. So, but it's not necessarily the most comfortable, but it's like, it's not going to, it's not, I would say it's very, immediately. So it's not so much the desire for uniqueness as much as the desire to, maybe it is, I was going to say push acceptability. But I guess that's kind of the same. Yeah, nothing about your life decision seems like you don't care about this uniqueness.
Well, I just don't feel like it's a motivating factor. Sometimes you have salient motivations. Like, you know, was it crazy to have gone from three weeks of like doing poetry immersion to then going attend a safari in Zambia, kind of, but like it wasn't the notion of that being like a super unique life choice. It wasn't my driving factor. It was like, Oh, I care about this poetry. That has become your, that is become your norm.
Well, or like my husband, Gaurav was saying, you know, in a few weeks, he's thinking about going to visit his brother, but he just had a work trip come up. So he'll get home on the Thursday, and they would have to leave on the Friday night. So he'll be home for one day and then a week and a half later, we're going to climb Kilimanjaro. So he's like, I'll only be home for five days or something in this like two week period. And he's like, doesn't that seem crazy? And I was like, crazy to who? And then he was like, well, crazy to me. And I was like, yeah, maybe, you know, it can, but like also like, when are you going to see your brother otherwise?
And that was fair, right? Because otherwise he won't be able to see his brother until the end of September, we realized if that. And so it's like, you know, like if you want to be able to do the choices you want to make, then it necessitates kind of, you know, being in situations that are considered almost not normal. But I also think that like, how should I put it? There are costs associated with everything. Sometimes you just don't care about the cost. Like sometimes you just don't care about the trade off, right? Like, let's say, for example, recently I've been thinking about this a lot, especially after my aunt died and like, you know, I spent some time back in Rajasthan. And I realized how not connected to the extended family I am. Like, I don't know these people. I don't care about these people.
And then suddenly I was like, of course, I don't care about these people. So I can take decisions, not thinking for a second about what they think. But like my cousin who lives there and probably meets some of these people once a year, at least, is like, unlike me, who met them for the first time for some people in like 25, 30 years. And like, I don't care, but she sort of like has that recurring some relationship. So it will be some cost to her. It will not be any cost to me. So while one can say that, oh, these are decisions that will make your relatives feel weird, I'm like that, but that doesn't matter to me. But I can't say that it would be the same price for her. On the other hand, like, let's say I, you and I both price freedom a lot.
But there are so many people who don't care about freedom at all, right? Like, people are really happy to give away like five days a week, 10 hours a day to whatever work they are doing. Because just the cost doesn't seem that high because they're like, I don't want to take a risk on where will my money come from and I don't want to keep thinking about it. Yeah, a job is fine. Like you and I don't want to do that. We're like much more willing to take on the risk that comes with not having a job or not having a stable source of income or not having that sort of like, you know, when somebody asks you what are you doing and then like, you know, going through your brain and thinking what, okay, which part do I want to describe to these guys what I'm doing? But like, we don't care about that. But some people do, right? Like, you and I will never have promotions, at least as life is going right now.
We'll not have any standard milestones to sort of celebrate. But we're okay with that cost. I don't really care. Doesn't matter to me. For you being able to do poetry and gothic and going to zombie and climbing Kilimanjaro is more important than that. But for others, it's not. Well, but I would just say, because I asked myself the question and then what, right? And like, I've seen the lives of where that ends up and I'm just like, I'm not that interested in that outcome. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
It's not like a driver to be like, Oh, I'm going to do something that's super unique. It's that, oh, I'm going to not do these things that I'm not interested in, even though that's like what you're supposed to do. Yeah, like it's My outcome is the same, right? Well, You live a unique life.
It's the difference, I think, between like, like Tufts used to have this tradition that actually ended my last year of university called the naked quad run. And so what it was is on the last day of classes, or I think the, the, the last day before finals, there was like a few days in period in between when classes ended before finals started in the winter, right? Because there's spring, there's fall semester and spring semester and spring semester ends in the summer and fall semester ends in the winter. So like, this is the first week of December and this is Boston. So it's like, there's usually snow. But the idea was, is that you would run around the, the naked, the academic quad naked. And it was like this tradition of, you know, that would happen at sundown.
And it was interesting because like, sure, you know, it was a very like unique school tradition and people who did it were expressing, you know, idea like it wasn't super not like the whole school did it and whatnot. Eventually the school really came down on it. It had gone around for like 35 years, but they found they were like, this is getting out of hand because like people would slip on the ice, they would be drinking because it's freezing, right? And then you're naked and then you part yourself because you're like bleeding. But I wouldn't say for me, like, and I did it once my sophomore year, it wasn't from a desire to be like, like it wasn't from a desire to express myself into something. You know, it was very much actually from an desire to like fit into a certain thing. Like it was, it was like unique thing that came out of a conformist desire.
And I feel like there's, there's a, there's a certain category of like uniqueness that comes out of that, which I'm trying to distinguish between and saying, I feel like there is a thing when you're searching for uniqueness, but that can almost lead you to like a conformity in like we are all searching for uniqueness. Versus the thing I'm trying to draw a distinction between, which is where I'm saying that this is just, you know, the typical path is not as interesting. And so it's saying that there was an interesting path that I went down and you know, whether or not that was unique was kind of immaterial. And you're just, I feel like what you're saying is the outcome doesn't, the outcome is the same. So it doesn't really matter. I'm saying like, I would put it more like this. There are unique things that you can do. You can want to do.
There are conformist things that you can do or want to do. Like, you know, you eat three meals a day, I'm sure. Very conformist, almost everybody eats three meals a day. Sometimes more. But I would say that like, it feels good and good natural if you have trained your muscle. So I would say, for example, when you were in college, I don't know how much your muscle for being yourself was trained.
The more it gets trained, the more it starts feeling like I'm just being me. I am not trying to be unique. But by the very nature of I am being me and customizing and personalizing my life to the n3 degree, it automatically makes your life unique. And it makes your experience of life unique and it makes you unique. Like, you know, I'm sure I don't know what like 20 years down the line, it must have been 20 years, right? Since your first year of college. College almost 18 million.
Yeah, like, you know, whatever 1820 years down the line, you're like much more used to doing whatever you want to be doing. Instead of like thinking about it in terms of conformity or non conformity, because you started early on like you did it once and then you were like, Okay, this doesn't seem like my thing. I'm not going to do it again. So in a very weird way, you opposed a unique thing to not conform. What was the unique thing there?
I think you said that you only did the I see naked run once. They were like, I said doesn't seem like my thing. But it is a thing that everybody was doing. It's a thing that everybody was expected to do. Well, everyone is certain like, like, you know, it wasn't like the whole school population, but like in my friends and like, you know, in the like, like kids who were pushing the boundaries a little bit, it was very common. Yeah, but you were just like, Oh, but this doesn't fit me. And that's okay. In a very weird way, you are not trying to be the cool kid, but you're trying to be yourself. And if you train that muscle for 20 years, something is going to happen, then being yourself becomes the most natural thing.
That's interesting. Yeah, because I think otherwise what happens is you grow up with certain notions of what it means to be unique, you know, like I never took a gap year, right? Like I never backed back through Europe. Like these are like, especially we grow up in the US, what I did, that was very much like what things did if you were like not following the norm. Correct. But in a way, I guess as we've arrived, like there's a certain conformity to that too, especially if you're not doing it from a place of saying what are the things I really want to do. So are we saying that that uniqueness is really a measure of how in tune you are with your own desires?
A variety of it. More like you would seem unique from the outside if you're non conformist to the social clustered around you. Yeah. And you would feel like yourself, not unique. You would feel like yourself if you are in tune with yourself. It might look unique to outside, might not look unique to outside viewers, but like the experience of being unique is different from the perception of being unique. I'm really curious what our listeners are going to think of this one. I think if you, you know, have me or the VIA's phone number, you have to text us after you listen to this and tell us your thoughts. I'm really curious how we'll still sit with that. Yeah, this reminded me of one of our older episodes, which is like, you know, spinning around a particular weird idea. Yeah.
Yeah. But it was lovely chatting doing this after so long. Bye.