Anyway, there's a long way of saying it. I think it's interesting how we think we've evolved to this kind of place where the signals can be more easily mixed because people can be signaling different things with the same things. Which is kind of an interesting place in the world to have ended up. Hi, I'm Deve. Hi, I'm Kahran.
And this is Thinking on Thinking. In your brain, where did the thought of signaling versus being in group come from? Um... Is it happens in both contexts? In both contexts and in personal contexts? Yeah.
And we try to signal. I'm not 100% sure this is what I was thinking about, but this is a good thing I could have been thinking about. Um... So I think I was thinking about how we, um, as we're trying to present ourselves to, to buyers that don't have context around us, or who, the kind of work we do, how do we show them that we are part of the, like, like, I don't know, people that they want to work with?
Um... This doesn't seem like a very good reason. I don't think so. So it's just, so I feel like I should have a better reason. I mean, like, it doesn't matter if the reason is good or bad. Like, not all ideas start from, we have this story and narrative around, you know, genius.
The idea started from a great place, only the great reasons, you know, got up and did do it. And I don't think that it works like that. In most cases, you'll start from something and then you'll be like, hmm, this seems envious in one way or the other. And then we have to alter it a little. Like, for example, when you say that, right, for me, that raises the question, how do we know that a buyer is a part of the group that we want to be selling to?
Right? Like, as you were saying that, like, how do buyers see us as a part of the group that they want to be buying from? That means that we have identified the buyer. How did we identify them? Yeah, yeah, you kind of get stuck into a little bit of a loop because you identified them based on, like, some attribute, right, which is like some group attribute. And then, yeah, and then I guess to answer more directly, I think that how... This is not a very well-formed thought.
I was thinking about how in like, university alumni associations, right, like there is this kind of, like, as you have tried to talk about, right? That if you were to meet someone who had also went to Kharagpur, that you would treat them in a different way, right? You would look at them as being part of this group that you are also part of. And I think that there is similar sort of things that exist across different industries. So you can be looking and saying, okay, that this person...
We've identified... You need to have some characteristic you've identified initially. And then you can go out and try and find that characteristic in other places or look and say, what kind of environment encourage that kind of characteristic? And then there'd be a higher probability for it to be, you know, fostered in that sort of environment. It makes me think of, like, how... I mean, maybe it's not even directly related, but it makes me think of how in ML algorithms, people use clustering as a feature of the algorithm. Okay.
Like, certain properties, like, exist together. And like, this is the pattern matching part of our plan, trying to, like, think about it, like, oh, people from this place are trustworthy. Because we have had some sort of trustworthy association with those kind of people. Like, same thing is for buyers, same thing is for sellers, same thing is for, like, you know, collaborators. What kind of signals are you looking for?
It's a very... I mean, like, it just, as you were saying, it just reminded me of how clustering works and pattern recognition. Yeah. This is a little bit orthogonal, but I think then the thing you start to run into though is, like, if you have to manifest different groups, right, it can be... Like, we met my husband and I, we met one of our neighbors recently, and he was just kind of talking about how, like, balancing, like, being part of a queer community and the kind of life he wants to show, or the kind of, like, way he wants to express himself there, and also then the community that he grew up in.
And they're very at odds, especially, like, you know, the kinds of clothes people wear and the kind of environment that they would go to. And it was interesting to kind of just hear that struggle, right, because it's this thing of, like, well, you want to balance... It's not even a question of being true to who you are, because in some ways they're both who you are, right, but being true to both of them at the same time can be very difficult. So it's kind of, I think, a different sort of aspect of, like, yes, there is, like, an in-group, but it's not always just one in-group, and then trying to figure out which way you're trying to signal it in a way that's still authentic is difficult. Yeah.
So, you know, like, when you are doing statistical sampling, you do sort of like an interval of sorts where, like, there is a 90% confidence interval. So the chances of people sort of lying within this range is like 90%. It's almost like if you are someone and you're, like, within different groups and you want to signal different things in those different groups, you would need to still have maintained, like, a certain interval of your personality throughout, right, like, people who have extremely different personalities, they're either socially perceiveless, not trustworthy, or they themselves lose a sense of identity. Like, who am I? And how do you answer that question?
Again, like, I don't have concrete thoughts on this. It reminds me of, like, my mom actually has this feeling about someone, and it's very funny because I accused her a little bit of, like, just not really, like, the gentleman in particular is queer and part of the queer community, but has, like you're saying, like, very different personas, depending on, like, you know, what kind of group he's operating in. And I think, yeah, it can be very jarring for people, especially people who look at that and they're like, this is, you know, I have past experience, it tells me people like this are untrustworthy, or, you know, that they are up to something or something. So, like, I think for someone like my mom, we've invested in this person's company. And so my mom is like, Oh, did it actually go anywhere? She's like, I thought it was like, he was never going to, like, I know he looked it up a couple of days ago, you know, it's companies done very well. But it's hard to, like you're saying, right, it's, it gives off a certain vibe to people because I think there's a lot of people who behave like that who are just not trustworthy.
Or there's a perception that people who behave like that are not trustworthy and then that perception gets propagated. Selected, like, confirmation vice. Correct, that's the better word, confirmation vice, for sure. It's interesting, right? Because like, so I was reading a book recently on design. This person basically said something along the lines of if the basis of your design is if only people did not behave this way, I would not have to make a consideration. Then that's just visual thinking and that design is going to be a failure. And I felt like that's not just true for design that is true for so many things.
Right? Like, I wish that we could shortcut how to figure out which people are trustworthy. But like, we can't not really, like people who are excellent at signaling, they might be a part of so many groups because they are very trustworthy. Like, I don't know, maybe they are part of a lot of groups because they are trustworthy. Yeah. Because they are like, you know, doing other behavior. But I think that like, where people's alarm bells start ringing is because suddenly that person behaves less like us and more like them. And so you start thinking, but he's then this person is not a part of us. He's a part of them.
Right. Interesting. So, good and talks a lot about people like us do things like this is the way to construct social change. And I've always found it very interesting because like, which us and which things sometimes if people like us start doing certain things, you start dissociating. Like, in India, this has happened right. Like, a lot of people have had over the last five, six years, fights with their families because they realize that elders in their families are way more right wing than the kids are. Yeah.
And almost like this is this battle is being fought on a very personal level. And it's at least to me, it's like really interesting that how that behavior, I mean, it would take a quite long time. It would take a quiet and extreme behavior in most cases for something to like, you know, for you to push your family out of the us group, especially like an ease like in Asian culture, people are a lot more like your parents are going to be in your life until you die. They're going to be instructing you how to eat what to eat what to wear until you die, until they die whichever one happens first. But it's like, it's very interesting that that has happened to like quite a few people. So it's like, I was thinking about like, you know, how do you, how do you define which things are the people like us doing and how do we even come up with those definitions. Yeah.
And I think it's also interesting how aspirational plays into it, right, because I think that there's sometimes where like, like I bought this shirt that has the heart on it. I think I was wearing it a few days ago, right. And it's like, it's a very well known designer makes these hearts with like smiley faces. And I was just thinking about it because I was like, this is, it's like, I was wearing it like kind of casually, right, because it's a casual sort of shirt, right. And I was like, I was thinking about how like that is a certain kind of like, I don't know if it's an aspirational signaling or like, right, but it's, I don't know, I think that there is there's an aspect of how I guess particularly in fashion and how we dress and how the way we present ourselves right that there is both like, there's both the group that we are in but there's also like an aspirational element to that group. So maybe if I can say that in different words, like if I thought about how my sister runs a women's fashion company, and they are part of what they are selling is not just that there's a community for you how you are today, but together we all have these
aspirations and this is also a community of people who share your aspirations. And again, in that case, it's it's fashion and it's apparel so that so there's a lot of aspirational dressing that occurs. And you know, especially for women and in society today, like, depending on how you're dressed and how you're carrying yourself, people are going to make certain assumptions about you in different kinds of environments. So I don't know, it's just interesting because I was thinking about that and how I think that there's like, but then there's also this perception of what is aspirational and I think that also runs into what you were just saying where it's like, what do you do? Well, sometimes what you do is because you think that's what people would do. And then you're running into this whole sort of like, well, is that really what you want to or you're trying to signal for these people that you're not really sure. Like that's how I was thinking yesterday or as like I was wearing a shirt and I was like, I don't know, am I signaling something I don't really know, right, like is it like, I don't know, right. But if that made sense.
It's an interesting dilemma. There's also like signaling is not completely pointless, because it's also in a way a building of common language in our culture. Right. So for example, of course, signaling is in some ways it can be seen as fake and in some ways it can be seen as like, you know, oh, you're just trying to pretend to be a part of this group. But many times it's also like, you know, when somebody wears a t-shirt of a brand that they're really like or carries a bag of like, you know, a brand that they're really like, that's like a part of it could be a wannabe signaling, but a part of it also could be, hey, I like this bag. Anybody who likes this band can just now know that I like this band and we can like bond together even though we don't know each other.
Yeah. Like it's not always, I don't know if we just talk about, oh, people are signaling to each other. There's this like bias that we start sort of coming into which is like, are you being fake, but you're not really like you might be being fake a little bit, but you're not being fully fake. I don't know how to exactly. Well, I think maybe this is kind of related to what you're saying, but but like, and I'll just stay with my t-shirt example, right?
But like there's like now you can buy like, so that shirt I was mentioning was maybe like $75, right? Now I could buy a $75 shirt that has no sort of like adornments that would still be $75. Like it doesn't have to be just because people are making this all sorts of different joy-dots people are making, right? So if you buy something that's like cotton that's in New York or like whatever that was woven in America, it's going to be much more expensive, right? But that is not as apparent, right?
It would look just like a black t-shirt that you would have no sort of awareness, right? And then I think on the other extreme, you know, there might be like a Gucci sort of shirt, right? Which could be, I don't know, maybe it'd be even more expensive than that. Maybe a similar sort of price, but you know, it'd be very blatantly branded, right? You would see it there.
It's how I tell you like Gucci. This is the Gucci sort of style. I wonder, right, that there's this kind of like, I wonder if this is a little bit right you were kind of hinting at, right? That like there's this depending on how you're, I guess, or let me really say that differently. There was a time that like that opulence was had more singular definition in my opinion, right?
Like if you look more at like history, right, there was like gold meant gold, right? And now I think, like, for example, we were out in the middle of the world, right? And for example, we were out with a few friends last week and one of the gentlemen we were with, we're wearing these like big diamonds, right? And my husband commented on them. And then when we got home, I was telling him, I was like, you know, those diamonds were not real, right?
And like, I've seen like enough people wearing diamonds. That's I could just tell they weren't real. And I don't think he even was trying to wear ones that looked really that real, right? It wasn't, it was part of a different sort of look that like, even though that's a traditional sort of like, yes, you know, I am like very opulent and whatnot, right? Like it's, there's different ways now.
I think where, where the flashiness and the quality are not necessarily related and the flashiness and the quality and then the like eventual cost are like, those are both inputs into it, but either one of them could be sending up the eventual cost. Anyway, there's a long way of saying, I think it's interesting how we think we've evolved to this kind of place where the signals can be more easily mixed because people can be signaling different things with the same things, which is kind of an interesting place in the world to have ended up. That is interesting. So I was thinking, when you were speaking, I was thinking about, I don't know if you've heard design matters by women, but she says, so it's a podcast and she interviews a lot of designers, artists and creative, like other creative type people. And one of the things that she says is, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference or we can do both. And I was like, once it hit me what she is trying to communicate, it made me realize that there is this stigma of, oh, if you're actually doing real work, you don't have to talk about it.
You don't have to signal that you're doing the work, right? And of course, different people are going to take your signal in different ways. There would be people, for example, if somebody was carrying a Gucci bag, there would be people who would think, whoa, that's a Gucci bag. And there would be people who'd be like, wow, how cheap, why are you buying this thing? And there would be people who'd be like, wow, what a showoff, do you have that much money to waste?
There would be people on all spectrum, you are sending the same signal, but of course, depending on the receiver, it's being taken differently. But also like this, when you were saying, I was just thinking about like, there is this inherent, I would say, social weight to just like even want to signal, like one has to consider that, am I signaling, am I signaling too much? Why am I signaling something? Right? But this also made me think, hmm, okay, the same signal could be interpreted differently as well.
Like as you would, I think it's like, hmm, this is interesting. Yeah. Well, I was saying, I think that's why we see more understated, right? Or like more, like, it's like the, what's the acronym, if you know, you know, right? Like, it's more things that are playing to, it's like a Gucci bag that you're holding is very obvious to everyone, right?
And like Versace is the same, right? They have such traditional understood, like brand motifs. But now I think you're starting to see more of like, and even if I thought about my sister's company again, right? Like there is a place where people are being able to, to almost like play loose and fast with people's expectations, right? Like someone, if you're wearing like a thousand dollar dress, right, people would be thinking for a long time that like, you know, you can afford it and you bought it and all these things, right?
And now they're being, it's kind of creating a way that you can just, just like operate in a different landscape. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
It is very interesting. I wonder if this like how it will, where we kind of started from, right? But like how it will translate to business in a lot of ways, because I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of judgment that happens really quickly. And it's based on how people are signaling, you know, like as I ran a company and I've been an investor, right? There's so much judgment and make based on how people approach me.
And like, and for me, because of my background, a lot of it has to do with the way that they speak. They're like, they're the grammar and their messages, especially if they're going to be sending me an unsolicited message like an email or LinkedIn message, which isn't necessarily a great thing, right? It just, it's the judgment I bring because of how I look at things. I'm like, oh, you know, if you were looking at things seriously, because if I was looking at things seriously, I would put in the time to make sure. I would do it to set the pace.
Right. So I'm like, Oh, are you part of the group that I will resonate with? And I make a judgment based on what I consider the criteria of that group. And I wonder, it'll be just be interesting how that starts to shift. I think both as people become more aware of the biases they're bringing, partially just because we're, we're so we're everything everyone is kind of being culture today is driving more awareness of biases.
I think at a global level, but that maybe it's a subject again for another week. What, you do want to say something? We could also know I was just thinking that we can also think about it in terms of like, there have always been signals and businesses, the setting that just become a lot more broader because like as purchase in power has become broader. Right. Across the globe, I would say there has been increase in prosperity.
Of course, that prosperity hasn't been equally distributed, but like where maybe, you know, 50 years ago, only one person was starting in the household and they like the demands of what made an average house were a lot lower. That's like a lot higher at this moment. So businesses have also changed this like right month is going on. Right. Or whatever it's going to come on in a few days.
And suddenly all the businesses are going to be like, yes, we love rainbow. And I mean, I remember. So there was this time when Facebook had like started doing the rainbow thing on their profile and so many people from India just like did the rainbow on their profile. And it was like, guys, do you know what it means? You are not supportive of this thing.
Why are you doing this? You have no recognition. And it's just like, what does it signal? And most people are like, the thing was not pretty. I think like there is so much confusing.
Like, it just reminded me of like so many amazing things. Businesses will do it. And it will also get misinterpreted a lot. Yeah, that's really interesting. It's interesting, like, because I think something I like, because I get so many Instagram ads, especially like as we're coming into Pride month.
And it's interesting to see how businesses operate, right. And how I feel differently about the businesses, right. Like people who just put a rainbow color, I'm just like, what is wrong with you? Right. And like, I mean, there's a shampoo add or something that I'm getting every day, which is like, it's like, literally they have the regular shampoo and then they're like pride edition.
And like the tag is rainbow. And they're just like, no. But then on the flip side, like there's there's a company that I had bought like a swimsuit from and then I noticed that they just like are leaning into the fact that like that there must be a lot of gay men who like their their undergarments and their swimwear right and like now the the lines that they're rolling out and they roll out like like three special lines for pride. They're just really focusing on their demographic.
And that's like a nicer way like, yeah, it's like, you know, you know, your demographic is going to be shopping for those kinds of things this time of year because they're going to parties and whatnot. Right. It's just like thinking about what people are actually looking for and like how are we going to show that we're show that we're showing up not just for, you know, five seconds. I think. Yeah, so I think that part is really nice. Or can be nice depending on how people execute.
We're going to actually like discuss more about like how businesses to signaling maybe next time. Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. I think we ended up in some good places here. Yeah. Awesome.
Okay. Next time. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Thinking on Thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes and you can find a link to it in the show notes.