Thinking on designing for the End

Hello, welcome to this episode of Thinking on Thinking. My name is Kahran Singh. Hi, I'm Devin. And we've decided to try a new format with our new season where we're going to give you intros for each of our episodes.

So this week we talked about building products which have a lifespan, which means thinking about when the product will no longer be of service, whether that means because of changes in circumstance or changes in the product or the market for the audience. We talked through a couple of different digital products, some physical products, and then thought about why do people seem to avoid that kind of conversations and reach some

kind of interesting conclusions from both the world as well as our own personal experiences. We hope you enjoyed this week. That's right. Did you know it's cultural whether when people do rock, paper, scissors, whether they do rock, paper, scissors, shoot?

And I never knew this until I moved to other countries. Do you not know about rock, paper, scissors? I don't know about shoot. Oh, I always learned it with shoot. You go rock, paper, scissors, shoot.

And then on the shoot you indicate which one you did. No, rock, paper, scissors. Yes, so it's cultural. I must say, I did not quite think we would make it to the second season. I felt like it to me was kind of a frivolous idea at first when we had the idea for the

podcast. And then of course, as we unpacked it, it became less and less frivolous and it's become something really interesting. I think it's very fun to record. It's fun to listen to.

But it's very cool that now we have a second season. I feel very pleased about it. I don't know if I had a clear idea of when would one season end and another season begin but I knew that we would probably be able to do it for a long time because I suspect that we have had conversations and interesting conversations and I would at least in my experience

our conversations have only gotten better over the years, over the months, not well, years. It is years now. Not multiple yet. But I feel like our conversations have only gotten better.

So I just felt like, okay, I think even if we start recording it, they will only keep getting better. I think that makes sense. It seems like good logic. If you thought that it wouldn't last forever, how long did you think we would make it?

Like, you know, how long did you think we would make it for? It's funny in some ways. I think this question is tied to the question you were asking me on the podcast we decided not to publish, which was what were my expectations of the podcast and what were my expectations and you know, have they been met?

It's interesting. I think I try to avoid disappointment sometimes. So in order to avoid disappointment, it's better to not set really high expectations or really up sometimes to set expectations at all. So I don't know.

I mean, I think I was like, oh, this is something like worth investing energy into, but not one where I needed to do, like not the amounts of energy where I needed to do a lot of forethinking. But in some ways, the way that you encouraged us when we started the podcast where you were saying, hey, let's make sure it's not a huge burden on us and we're really kind of like reducing how much time we need to spend editing, reaching how much time we need to be spending

probably so it's a relatively small thing. And I think that is just really clever because like, at least how I think about it, there's like some amount of discretionary energy I have to put into things. But then otherwise, if I'm going to make a serious commitment, you know, I want to think about it and make sure that like, you know, do I have the time and space and you know,

mind space? But I think we did a good job of carving this into the being the kind of like within the energy that we had available, or at least for me, that energy I had available. So it didn't have to be a huge decision. It felt like a relatively small decision.

And then we kind of organically made it a little bit, I think deeper and better as we've gone along. I can relate to this. So I was talking to my partner recently about working out and how if you want to get into working out a good metric is out of five workouts for four, you should still feel like, oh, I

had much more energy to give. Like, and as someone who is a beginner, oftentimes the tendency can be, oh, I have to give it my all. But you just can't operate at your 100% because if you expect yourself to operate at your 100% you're just going to end up being in a position where you're drained out most of the times.

And like that was something very insightful for them because it's like, whoa, OK, I hadn't thought of it like that. And it was really like, I don't think that I still follow it always, but I still think that like in creative work, it has come easier to me. I want to think of things as, oh, what would be sustainable in the long term?

That's really interesting. I've been trying to work on not saying that. I realize it's my catch word that I was going to know. Well, the part that I think is interesting is that the way I feel like that kind of behavior is just, it's so prevalent in different ways.

Right. It's like this notion that like, oh, like I'm doing something I think is going to be hard. So I better make sure it is hard. Otherwise my worry was for nothing or something. I don't know.

I think that's at least how where I come from in some ways on that. I think that like one of the insights my sister had sometime like last year or something like that was she was like, sometimes I just make myself anxious so that I feel like this thing in front of me is important rather than it being the other way around that this thing is so important that it's making me anxious.

And I started noticing that I also do that sometimes where if I don't have an agency or something and I'll just worry myself to death. Basically, even though there's nothing that I can change, but just worrying makes me feel like, oh, I'm doing something. We have also talked about this.

Yeah, I feel like, I mean, I understand that, but I feel like that's slightly like a different thing also. Right. Like worrying, I feel like, like you're saying, right? It lets you, let you feel like you're doing something without actually doing anything. But that notion of making yourself anxious to make it seem more important to yourself is kind of

interesting. Do you feel like, does she, was she saying like she does it consciously or she realized it was a subconscious thing? It's just a subconscious thing, right? Like your brain automatically goes in those loops and patterns type of a thing.

Like for example, this is maybe like rounding back to the topic we were supposed to talk about today. I feel like we're getting there. We haven't had a discussion around. But like one of my friends and I were discussing how a lot of the thought patterns that we have become maladaptive over time.

And then there is such a high cost of trying to change them. And just on an even like sort of a little more zoomed out level, it would be way easier to just think of everything as, oh, this is not a part of my personality or like not a part of who I am, but something that I am temporarily taking on almost like clothes in your wardrobe rather than like parts of your body.

So for example, let's say people say, oh, I'm a people pleaser, or I'm someone who's an introvert, or I'm someone who's an extrovert. And then sometimes those words become the categories that you sort of confine yourself into. Right. Yeah, I could be very like it could be.

I don't know. It would be much easier to say, oh, when I was in college, I was an extrovert because there are a lot of different people here and I just want to socialize with everyone. That doesn't have to be the rest of your personality. Maybe the first few years of your job, you really don't want to be an extrovert.

You want to just focus on certain things. And then maybe you want to be an extrovert again. Right. Like you're starting your own company. Suddenly networking is a big deal and you want to be much more extroverted.

And neither of those have to be a moral stance. One way or the other. I'm not saying like malleability would be easy, but still. Well, I do feel like the extroverts are at least in that particular example, they are far more likely to take a moral stance and be like, you should want to talk to everyone, which I feel like I never feel like introverted people are as much

trying to push extroverted people into situations. Do you know what I mean? Hmm. No, I don't feel this. I think you need more introverted friends.

Hmm. Because like I have introverted friends who will look at you very judgingly if you are someone who's partying or being very social all the time. With a little bit of why can't you just sit down and enjoy your own company? What is wrong with you? And in extreme circumstances, a little bit like, what kind of trauma have you gone through in life that you don't like your own company?

So no, judgment exists. That's pretty funny. Well, there was something you had mentioned earlier that I thought was a good tie to this notion, but I lost the moment. So maybe it's okay. So I think it was right before you were talking about your sister, actually, you were talking about how you see people when they start

something new, like, like working out, I think was their example that like they'll throw themselves into it so much that then it kind of becomes exhausting. I think, you know, in some ways, I think that is kind of an example of what we were going to talk about today, which is this notion of like, how do you design things knowing that you have a finite amount of energy knowing there's a finite amount of time where the world will be like this. And frankly, there's probably a finite amount of time that the solution as designed, whether it's a product, whether it's a

service, whatever it is, or even like it's a behavior, right? Like there's a finite amount of time that behavior will be appropriate. And a lot of people just don't design thinking that way. They don't design thinking that there's a finite amount of time where this should should exist. And if I find it fascinating, like, I don't understand why they seem at least to me, it seems like this is a big gaping hole in the way people

think about things. It is I also like, I wonder if you've talked to people about like ending things. I have talked to startup founders when they are working on something and ask them, oh, so how long do you think this solution would be viable? And there's often taken a backpite.

Because of course, they know that solutions that work from one stage will not be easily ported to the next stage. But it's such theoretical information. Practically, they don't want to think about it. Practically, they want to feel like, no, everything's going to be viable forever. And we are going to make it happen.

You're so right. You're so right. I wouldn't. But is it like the bias of like, like, is it like really to like a sunk cost sort of bias where it's like, I have put all this energy into it. It must be valuable. So of course, I don't have too much information about this.

But I feel like a part of it is also just neurologically, we are wired to despise change, especially if something is in a good state or rather in a working stage, we don't want to change it. And we're wired to not change it. It's only you and I were talking about credit cards, but before we came out of the podcast, so the next time I tell you about how my credit card really doesn't work for me, an idea, but it just the switching costs feel mentally too high to even approach the subject.

I'm just like, oh. And not in. Yeah, stuff like that, you know, there's no lifespan to them, right? You signed up for a credit card. It's yours for life. They have not thought about that product and like saying, OK, you know, how are we going to take you on a journey of your initial you?

I mean, you can. It does exist. Well, do you think it's something that you would like want to bring into the products that we in services we build? Like having this notion that there's a death or like an end and span to how we build things? So one of the like, as you were speaking about it, I was just thinking about when has been a goodbye experience from a product been delightful for me.

And I don't know how it is now. But so I started using Headspace somewhere around 2016. And I was a subscriber to them until 2020. Mid, I would say, or somewhere around that time. So, you know, like a good four or five years.

And I really loved the product. But at some point I just started feeling like, huh, I don't feel the need for this product anymore in my life, which is I would say like, you know, a very good spot for any wellness product to be that like, you know, your customer no longer needs you. So in there, I sort of closed my subscription and in there, there was a small question, okay, why are you leaving? You know, why are we are sorry to see you go? Why are you leaving?

And then I selected one of the options was that I feel mentally calm enough that I don't feel like I need Headspace anymore. And then I chose that option. And there was such an encouraging message that, oh, we are so happy that you have found yourself in that state. And we would love to have you like, you know, back again, but it was just super encouraging. They were like, oh, we are happy to say bye to you basically.

And honestly, that message convinced me more than anything that if at any point like meditation again becomes harder for me, I would subscribe to Headspace again. So, so you feel like, like, and now maybe like using like a different lens. So when you when you look at that experience as a as a product designer, like it feels to you that someone has thought about the fact that we will have customers exiting and some some of those cases we will have customers exiting for reasons where it doesn't warrant, you know, reactivation sort of attempts. Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. And they have actually thought of that as a success case for them. Like it's not just that they have thought of it as a case, but they have thought of it as a success case for them. What gives you the feeling that they've thought of it as a success case and not just as a

Because they didn't try to guilt me into it. Like I recently removed my account from some dating apps. And they're advertising. They always say designed to be removed or find your person, remove us, like, you know, something like that. But there was no thought that had gone into why am I deleting the app?

And is it because I've found someone then what should I get? Yeah, that's an interesting notion. I was actually chatting a bit with with the with the gentleman I mentioned a few minutes ago, who I had lunch with. And and he was he's the company he works for is in the loan servicing business. And what we were talking about is that their average loan size is 700 rupees, which is not even $10.

Like when you do loans that small, right, like the transaction costs become a significant amount of the of the loan, right? So it pushes up the perceived interest rate to be quite high. But a lot of these people don't have other options. But what I was asking him is how do you move people as they have different life stages and, you know, their life circumstances change? How do you realize and move them across?

And he was saying that actually, like that kind of modeling didn't really exist in the company for a long time, right? They were much more focused on, you know, what is our right market? Are you that market? And then and then the notion that people would come in that basically that the first sign up and the last whether you trust the data from the first sign up or the last sign up.

And they they prioritized first sign up for a long time. And now they've started to realize that actually it's the last sign up that's that is really the most important. And that we need an understanding of trajectory is also important, but it doesn't seem like they've yet been able to reach that place. I think because a lot of what you're saying is hard. You build all these systems, help you identify what is my right target market.

And then when you realize that either your your target market ages as they have a relationship with you or that people you dismissed could become part of your target market, especially if you give them like pre pre active activities that can bring them in that direction. It's very hard if that wasn't your mindset initially. If you were in a mindset where you were like, oh, you know, I'm filtering out or I'm segmenting and focusing. You know, you didn't use those.

I also feel like that is very true. And I also think that for whatever reason, that has become the ethos of how people make products. Yep. I think you're right. There's always more people just filter out these ones and get to the next customers.

And even if you do, right? Like, I don't think that people people focus so much when they're designing products on the onboarding experience, because it's almost like taking the dating example again. It's almost like people just think the first date is all that matters. And anything after that doesn't matter at all.

And honestly, anyone who is in a relationship, which is like quite a significant portion of the world's population would be like the first meeting can be whatever. It's actually the subsequent meetings and how you are able to find a fit in other person's life and how they are able to find a fit in yours. That's what matters. But I don't think that like when people are constructing products, they get it. Yeah, that was actually the story you were sharing a few a few weeks ago about how you consulted for a company that was looking at at their engagement numbers, their daily engagement numbers and and seeing like, I think, what was it?

Like 20% sort of like daily engagement as a success, but then not thinking about the fact that that those kinds of those users would just get burned out on the experience and be like, why am I spending so much time on this app and uninstall it after, you know, a week or two? Yeah. Yeah, but now I have a question. Do you feel like this kind of thinking is coming from like bad goals and benchmarks and metrics and so people are going after vanity metrics? Or do you think it's actually like this refusal or kind of a fear almost of like, like being like, oh, I'm going to build something which has a finite life?

I feel like a large part of it, at least philosophically is that we, at least from my perspective, that we don't deal with end of things. I don't think that when we are starting our company, right? Like we are thinking, oh, how long will this thing survive for five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years? And like that is when both of us are people who have moved on to different things quite frequently in our careers and have been happy with that decision. You know, that reminds me of this story.

I actually was chatting with someone last week. I think I maybe mentioned to you and she had been the founding director, I think of something called the membership project that was trying to help work people's news, figure out like what do you charge for, when do you have subscribers? And she was the director for two years and then there's someone else and then they're quite close. And so they made the decision that after four years, the membership project shut down and you know, their findings and whatnot, still online, people can tell it.

But they designed it that way that it would be a limited span and that they had a limited period to do the work. And then at the end of that period that they weren't going to try and stay relevant forever. They wanted to be relevant for this snapshot. It really struck me because I like her saying, right? I very rarely hear people be able to conceptualize in that way, much less execute in that way.

To kind of understand that was just fascinating. It's interesting. I you mentioned when we were starting a company though, a couple of minutes ago, I was thinking a little bit that I feel like this tendency towards believing there's always more customers and there's always the next person. And you can just filter out the bad customers and focus on the right audience. In some ways, that's really what drove me, I think in seeking you out and you know, in kind of going on this journey.

Because I just feel like it's a way it's not there. It's not a good way to do marketing. It's it's I think like in the long term, you end up treating people like, you know, when this happens across a thousand different companies and, you know, 10,000 different interactions at like a society level. You start just treating people like they don't matter as much. I don't know.

And I just don't like the way it doesn't it doesn't help you form deep relationships with brands. It helps you form shallow relationships. And I think that it's just not nice. I feel like now that we're talking about things that humans don't like to think about. Another thing that is almost like an undercurrent in what you said is it's very difficult to sort of acknowledge to yourself that I'm trying to do something that has moral or ethical or societal level implications.

And I'm trying to shift something there. Like people love to tell the story of that. And of course, there are the Elon Musk's of the world who are like, I will change everything, but will they have question mark. But to be very honest, there is this feeling of like, you know, yeah, I would love to say that, oh, I want to change how people do marketing.

But it feels a little bit scary to say that. Not that I don't have the conviction or that I don't feel like it can work. But still, there is something weirdly. Yeah, scary about it. But if I if I reframed it as I want to change how brands build connections with their audiences.

Does that feel scary? It does. Oh, so it's not a semantics thing. It's the idea. It's not a semantics.

Yeah, it's a little bit like I was having a conversation recently with someone about it. There's some list that I don't even remember what it was. And instead of choosing freelancer, I chose leader slash entrepreneur in that list. And I was like, that is a scary like switch for me.

Like the freelancer slash consultant that felt wrong. So I chose the other one. But like the leader slash entrepreneur also feels a little bit like, you know what the feeling is like, fear is maybe not the right word for it. It's like when you are a kid and you're wearing your mom or your dad's shoes and you're just like the shoe doesn't fit. It's that feeling.

Do you feel like you would feel differently if it was like you you you mentally were like, oh, I'm going to be a leader for five years or 10 years. Like you had that kind of plan for yourself. But does that does that change how you feel about it? Oh, I don't. Oh, probably.

It doesn't feel as heavy. You are right. I think there's a niceness to designing things so that they do have a lifespan, you know, like whether it is like we're starting to have right now, like life goals or like products. Because I feel like it gives it takes away some of those unknown unknowns. Like when you when you have an indefinite future, right, you don't know how long it could go on for.

But when you at least have some idea that this is still here. Like I heard about this trend in weddings now that people will do like Valorneals and I told Garret about it and he was like, yes, we should do it every five years. I think he was kind of kidding. But it's an interesting notion, right? Or it's kind of like, yeah, I'm just saying that maybe your partner, you don't have the expectation your partner will be right for your entire life.

And they only expect them to be right for five years or 10 years. And then if they are still right, we carry on. There is something very relieving about that. Interesting to say that because I know some people who would hear that and be like, oh my God, I need this stability. Like I can't like it terrible to imagine that you would like what if your partner walks up in one day and says, no, this isn't working for me.

Or you'd always have that undercurrent worry. No, you know, that doesn't resonate with you as much though. No, I feel like and I think this is a conversation that we had much early on. But I think like we also I also said this to you that you also need to give yourself the option that we might not work out with each other for forever. Like that this company might not be the last thing.

And like, you know, at some point we might not be compatible as business partners. And like that would mean that. Whenever until you are working, you are one present in the relationship and you feel like there is high compatibility. And I think those two things like the presence of the other person and their understanding of, oh, this is the right fit for me. It's way more important than me feeling like I don't want to be alone.

No, of course, I know different people feel differently about this thing. Yeah. And I don't know. I was thinking for a second whether if you do a lot of product design, it's one of those things that you start to just think in that way. Like if it is a manifestation of product design thinking.

I'm not really. I think that I think that way. And so I can bring that in other areas also. Yeah. Because like one of my biggest qualms with product design is that versus like why I like making games more is that there is a almost limited box.

Like I don't like games as service products. I don't want to work on those because it's almost like, oh, I wanted to make something. I made it. We'll do some bugs and like, you know, bug fixes and all of that. But I don't want to think that this thing that I'm creating is going to be relevant forever.

Do you think you have to do it? It changes how clients feel about it though. Like have you ever tried to have that conversation with any of your clients? Does it change? Yeah.

It almost never goes well. And I don't know if it is because I haven't learned how to have that conversation or it is because like most people feel insecure about things when they are making them. So this idea that, oh, even if it is perfect and we do everything right. It still might have an end date. Like I don't know which one is the.

They don't. What about you? Like how do you feel about that? Does it make you more scared when there is an end date or does it make you feel happier? It depends on how much I have energy I've spent into it and like how much anticipation I have for the end date.

I don't know. I never love when like things are over because I feel like there's like some whole thing. In my life, especially if it's like something I've been working on for a long time. But I really, I find it very hard to work on things if I don't have some sort of end date. Like even like really small things.

Like I was meeting, meeting my physiotherapist today and she works under a different physiotherapist. And so we never, neither of us knew how long the sets were going to be because he kept yelling them from across the room. And I was like fighting it so exhausting. Yeah, I don't like that kind of stuff. I don't know.

I mean, I feel like you are much better about the other kinds of end things. Like for example, I was trying to write poetry every day for a while. I think I talked about it on an earlier podcast and I didn't, I know I don't like it if I feel like I have a goal. Right. So like if I said it was for 20 days, like I don't like that.

But then I haven't been able to figure out how to set a good, maybe I'm, yeah, I haven't been able to figure out how to set a good time period. I guess I don't really know even what to call. I guess a good set of goals. Is it because you don't know what variables to play with or is it because every time you try to play with a variable, it comes with like additional, almost like psychological cost? I think it's because I like to have a big goal and then have sub goals.

Hmm. And then deciding what is a, like, what is an okay stopping point doesn't, it's somewhere in between. And then I don't have an appropriate goal at that level. If that makes sense. I can give you some illustrative examples.

If not, yes, it's definitely better. Um, I think again, we may have mentioned it earlier on the podcast, but like I was trying to do Duolingo for a while and I didn't have a good goal of what I was trying to get to. You know, and eventually I just found it hard to sustain over a while. Cause like if I had had a goal and then I could have said, okay, I'm here and now I now I've made it, right? So maybe I'll stop and maybe I'll come back to it.

Maybe I'll set a new goal, right? But that I just found really difficult. Um, and I think for me with, with new things, like, I don't know, for some reason it comes to mind, I've tried to learn surfing several times and like my goal there is like standing up on the board. Like, and I didn't quite realize how difficult it could be to stand up on the board. Right.

And now I don't feel successful in my attempts to learn surfing and doesn't drive me to come back to surfing very much. I would love in like an esoteric way. I'm like, yeah, I would love to be able to surf. Am I willing to put the time and energy in? Not really.

Cause it feels too hard. So I think there's some happy medium where you can set goals that are neither too hard nor too easy and then be able to say that this is the lifespan, right? Like that, that I am doing this thing for this lifespan and. But it could also be okay to say this thing isn't for me. Yes.

See, that's, that's the problem with how I'm setting my goals, right? I'm not setting goals that like, that you can lose and still make the goal. These are only winning goals. Ah, okay. Like for example, when I tried to learn how to surf within two sessions, I was like, I don't want to do this.

This is not for me. I do not enjoy being punched by the waves practically. Yeah. Like, like the 10 seconds of, you know, looking cool to other people is not worth it. No, thanks.

The course was minimum supposed to be three days and I just took two days and I didn't go the third day and I don't care. I was just like, yeah, I'm going to relax in my hammock because this is just not for me. So it's just like, I don't know. Why would you go back to surfing if you're not enjoying it? Well, I don't, I don't share exactly.

Like I like boogie boarding a lot, which is a lot like surfing. Oh, like I'll go body surfing, right? Like it's, I don't know, it's surfing without a surfboard. Like you just catch, you just catch the wave with your body and then if you, if you can hold yourself kind of like buoyantly on the top of the wave on the crest, you sometimes you have to kick a little bit to like stay on top of the wave.

But basically you have the natural buoyancy like and your body is aerodynamic. Like you can surf the wave without it without a surfboard. And you can't stand up. You can't stand up obviously. Yeah.

Yeah. But like you can have the wave carry you into shore. Yeah. So I guess the negatives, I don't feel as strongly. It's just like, do you feel like there are things that you can be good at?

There are things that you want to be good at and there are things that you feel like you should be good at. Correct. I feel I should be good at surfing or at least like a reasonable at surfing. Okay. Because like I think that I mean not that there are zero things in my life that I feel like I should be good at.

But if I'm able to sort of catch myself feeling the should, I think I generally try to be like, but why should I know? I think I'll answer your question differently. I think I feel like I should be good at it because it's like a lifestyle that feels aspirational to me in a way that is alluring. You know what I think a lot of that is how it's packaged where it's like, yeah, it's not even just like people like me do stuff like this, but people who I aspire to be do stuff like this. I see.

When you see yourself on a surfboard, you also see a six pack and flowing hair. Then you go to a very nice place and have very vegan, whatever you want to have. Yeah. You know, you see people at 10am. You've already done two hours of surfing in the day.

That's interesting. Yeah. So I guess I don't know. I kind of feel like interests are separate. Like I don't know if the way to think about it is to try and apply this calculus of there's a lifespan for this interest and you should think about how you design your desire to engage with that interest appropriately.

Whereas I do feel that way pretty strongly about products. I also feel like though that there is a way to just like, you know, design it as a life philosophy for yourself that things would naturally come to an end. I mean, most people don't engage with, for example, death either, even though it's such a reality. Like I would say the first death that I actually experienced in life was when my dad died when I was 23. And it's like generally people have some slow sort of gradual understanding of death.

Yeah. It's not like parent, dad. Bye. But in a very, very strong and palpable way, it made me feel like I'm mortal. I don't know how else to define that feeling.

But like very limited in my power, like I am powerless and it was a very palpable feeling. But the interesting thing is like whenever I try to talk about this, not whenever, but like much more often than not, people automatically start feeling uncomfortable. And a lot of that discomfort is not because I haven't thought about death or they are unsure of how I'm going to feel about it because like I've had enough feelings about it and I've faced it. But like you yourself wouldn't want to think about it either. You would not want to think about what would it be like for my parent to pass away.

Nobody wants to imagine that or what it would be like for me to pass away or what would it be like for the people after death. In other words, what happens is someone younger than you passes away, right? But like everything dies in the case, but we don't think about it. I feel like a part of like people building things and like not thinking about it is also coming from that feeling. It's like whatever I make is kind of like my child and I don't want not a very great way to relate to things, but we do end up having emotional connections with stuff that we are creating.

You don't want to think that it would die someday. So what if you got pushed back that was like, well, you know, it's not that I don't want to think about it, but I just have more important things to think about. Like I've eliminated amount of time to spend on this product service, whatever it is, right? And keeping it alive is taking up all of my, you know, ability to kind of think. How would you feel about that sort of notion?

I mean, that's like saying that, oh, I'm too busy going to my job so I can't write my will. And I don't want to buy insurance. I've not I've been trying to get my sister and her husband to write a will for years. And I don't think I still don't think they have to be fair to them. I have not actually my will is not official because I haven't like it has to be printed and signed and then like, but not never done it again.

It might be coming from that same space. Don't want to think about dying. Don't want to think about like, you know, when I'll be gone types. Do you feel like there's some like products or spaces where you are starting to see that kind of thinking more? Are you do you see that happening everywhere?

I guess I think I mean, there is this move worldwide. It feels like towards like experience culture. And I do think that experiences in some ways are, you know, they are things designed with a lifespan. So I guess maybe I would say I feel like there's opportunity because there are more time bound things. And I think there's more like people are buying time bound things.

I'm not maybe maybe I'm not 100% sure I have seen that many actually are designing with their end in mind, or at least like thinking about the end as something that should be designed as much as the beginning. Hmm. And I wonder if there is also this thing about just not knowing what that kind of a product would look like. So like one of the companies that I'm consulting with right now, they design experiences like they do in person experiences. And for them, a good record, like, you know, repeat rate would be something like 20% to 30% people like, you know, coming back over three month period. That would be a great repeat customer.

Yeah. And now just like, if I think about that, it's like, okay, 30% people repeating in three months, let's say 10% people repeating the next month, which means that 90% people are not repeating. And like, why wouldn't you design for the people who are not repeating and just giving them almost like, you know, this beautiful package that they can remember for forever, like just as we're having this conversation, I'm just thinking about that. But like, I don't think that the thought had even occurred to me also, like not just to the team who definitely would be way more focused on growth and retention, but like, yeah, I don't know if products are going in that direction, or if we are actually moving in the direction of more disposability. Yeah, that's interesting.

I didn't tell you said that I didn't realize that I think you're right. That is the dichotomy. Right. If you don't design things to end at some point. You're basically designing them to end at any point.

So then you have to, so it does drive to disposable sort of culture. Interesting. We, you know, my fiance and I have been doing a lot of like wedding shopping and we did meet this one, one Indian designer in Delhi. It was very interesting talking to him because he was telling me about how he, when he does wedding clothing, he tells people, give it back to me after the wedding and I will change it into something you actually wear. So in a lot of cases, like a lot of the formal wear for Indian for men is long, right?

It may be knee length. It might even be like ankle length. And if you know, if you cut that to be like, like a waist length, now it's like a jacket that you can actually. So I feel like that kind of thing, that kind of thinking is just, is very inspiring in some ways. I think in some like, we didn't yet get something from this, this guy, but I think partly because of the way he thinks, I'm because of the way he talks about it.

And I almost want to, right? Like, it's like, yeah, I would love to spend my money to kind of support these kinds of endeavors. Actually, I guess weddings themselves in a lot of ways are, at least for wedding planners that are designed in a way that you are obviously remembering their a's and n's. Like I've talked to our wedding planners a little bit about like, what do you do with all the flowers and like, what's going to happen to like cushion covers and such. And for most things, they have an answer.

Like the flowers all get gathered up. There's actually like a vendor who does perfumes. And so he'll send a team out to the venue to gather all of the flowers and then like over the years they've made some shifts. They don't use plastic anymore to hold the flowers. They'll use metal because the metal is more easy for them to pull out and it doesn't change the taste of the perfume in case you miss some.

Unlike plastic wood. Oh, wow. Yeah, right? If I was like, oh, this is actually thinking about the fact that like these flowers do have a life. They do have these things and we can still do something with them even if they're not appropriate for this product or against this.

It's a service, right? But do you feel like having a death date or like, you know, a natural lifespan goes hand in hand with sustainability all the time? Is that like a fair joining to make? It feels much more related than not is how I would say it. Like just thinking about, oh, what happens when this thing would end feels like very close to sustainability because it's like whether it is something that can only be used once.

Like, let's say a packaging for food or it is something that can be used multiple times like a tool. What happens when it is at the end of its life? There will everything will arrive at the end of its life at some point. Yeah. And like, what does that look like for this thing?

It does feel close to sustainability. Huh. When we started this conversation, I did not think that we would arrive here. No, no, no, no, right. But it's a good place to.

I'm just like, huh, we were talking about sustainability, but from a very different lens, like, especially in context of like the kind of products that you and I have worked on, which is mostly digital products, one doesn't really think about sustainability. Yeah, we still think about sustainability in terms of physical products and not digital words. Yeah, I do agree with that. I think in some ways it's we think about attention and time as being an infinite resource, like especially of our prospective customers. When you come from a digital product design background.

And that's not if everyone does that, obviously that would not be sustainable because it's not actually an infinite resource only feels infinite because at the summation, you know, every, every potential perspective customers time and sure that feels infinite. But if every single company that's hunting for those prospective customers starts to behave in that way, that's not going to be long term sustainable. It is exhausting for the overarching system when you draw the system as being, you know, culture or the world. I never thought about it till that until we drew this connection here, which is very interesting. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Huh. We should do more conversations about this thing, like not maybe on the podcast, but this feels like something that we could use as like a sort of through line for how we work with people and how we think about it like just this idea of sort of is this sustainable like on attention, and actually the connection that you just do right like attention is limited people's lifetime is limited. Yeah. Right. And if everyone thinks that this is an infinite resource, then we end up where we are clearly today. Yeah, I feel like it's it feels very strongly resonant to me right like almost like I wonder if it is kind of like one of the anchors that we can be using as like, I think something we talked about a few weeks ago was like how do you differentiate, you know, like what are you going to say you're better at than anyone and I think this could be it right like in, I don't know, it's sustainable for some reason when I say it like that doesn't feel like it connotes the right thing. I don't want to say I'm better at sustainability than anything else.

But I think being just like cognizant that everything is limited. It's almost a weird dichotomy because as soon as you acknowledge that it helps you be able to spend more time on the things that you actually want to spend time on, because yeah, you know what I mean, like it's, I'm not sure if it just reduces the amount of uncertainty and therefore you're like, oh yes, you know, I know I don't have infinite time so I must focus only on these things that I want to focus on. There was a, and this is the last thing I'll say but like there was this interesting graph that I saw on Reddit or Instagram I'm not sure of this person just talking about where does people's time go over like their lifespan. So like with their parents and family, with their partner, with their friends, with their colleagues and with themselves. And like, of course, as you would imagine, like, you know, time with family, like until you're 20, very high, and then like drops pretty drastically time with your partner increases and like then platus out but like sustains throughout life.

So like, time with your friends, initially like a little bit higher and then sort of like this out at a lower point. The only, I guess, surprising but not so surprising once I saw it thing was the time with yourself kept increasing. So like, more and more time with yourself as your life goes on, especially like as you stop working. So like, time with coworkers is pretty high but like for most people once they retire at 60, they're not spending that much time with their coworkers. And sure you will have like, you know, some increased time with their partner, but mostly you will have time for yourself. And like it keeps increasing over time in general also because it's like, oh, once your kids go away from your house, you have more time. And then once you stop working, now the colleague time is your time. Right. Like, it just slowly increases. And to me, it just feels like hey, then actually investing in being with yourself and enjoying that time is just so much higher returns over your lifetime. But we rarely think about that.

I guess I just I wonder if like modern society in some ways has like set us up poorly because of that thing. Growing up you understand like, oh, these are people I can like know for this kind of information or these are like places that I can turn to and you like build systems to help you work in your in your work and you understand like, you know, oh, like, like for example, for me I've understood like I will get very absorbed in things I'm doing and I will not go to do other things that I'm on my calendar. Right. So when I was running a company, one of the things I would do was like I had the system, which is much easier in India, and he would just keep track of it for me. Right. And I had to spend a lot less of my energy on it. And it was a great system for me. It worked out. Now, you know, I think in an earlier era where there wasn't such clear sort of distinctions of this is your learning time. This is your working time. This is your retirement time. And you would get to have those systems be sustainable for your life. But now that doesn't exist. And that just makes it kind of tough as you get older because it's like, well, both these systems I had to make myself successful that I built over years are disappearing.

And then also these connections that I had that like, you know, I used for betterment or just for for life and enjoyment also are kind of disappearing. And there's not clear. We don't create ways to replace those we don't think about it that way we don't think about that these things will decay. They will also have a lifespan. So when they are gone, how am I going to have an equivalent thing and unfortunately, you know, when you're in your late 60s or 70s, sometimes hard to come up with the solution. Maybe you could execute the solution but coming up with this is a lot of energy. That's our thinking. No, that is like that's very true also because So it has been what 10 years since I graduated from college, not that long. But I've seen and had those conversations with some friends who are like, they haven't made new friends who are not from that circle.

And who are not a part of that same group. And I'm not saying that people who are exactly the same as you have had the same environment are not going to be incredible friends. They can be like so can other people be but more importantly, you need to know how you can make friends like that's a skill. And like you need to continuously hone it. Yeah. And it's just at least to me it's just really weird to see people be like, yeah, it's just harder to make friends and my brain is like, you're just 33, you're not 60. Why are you talking as if your life is over? At least like that's how I feel like it's just a skill that you have to evolve because otherwise later on in life it doesn't feel sustainable. Yeah, sustainable. Okay, I'll give you one last thought that I know we really should wrap up over time. But that just reminded me I think I've told you about this before but of a conversation I had years ago with a very good friend of mine in New York.

And her uncle is also part of the queer community and she was telling me that kind of struck her one day that both her uncle and I can really just be in many different kinds of social situations and really be able to like kind of sort ourselves out. And we were talking about how we kind of felt like it's in some ways it's because of growing up as part of the queer community and feeling like you have to be able to advocate for yourself to be accepted regardless of the circumstances. So I wonder a little bit if you and I have this feeling because we have always it's just become so internalized at this point where you're like, oh, yeah, of course, like why wouldn't you be able to make new friends because it's something that we that you have to do. You know, because you're always like looking you're taking care of yourself you're advocating for yourself in new circumstances. And the best way to do that is to have other people be able to advocate for you as well, which they will do if you're there your friends. Oh, wow.

I had not thought of it like that. Yeah, that makes so much sense. We can talk about more next time we should stop promising it's going to be next time it'll be in some future week. Maybe or maybe not. Yeah, but okay, really awesome chat.

Yeah. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Thinking on Thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes and you can find a link to it in the show notes. Thank you.