We always applaud courage but not always daring? Daring is for rogues and courage is for knights, whether they choose to be good or evil. Do we always want to foster courage, but not always daring?
Divya and Kahran explore this topic, and share stories, tidbits and a sprinkle of joy of life in-between.
Theme music is by Steve Combs, available here: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Steve_Combs/Steve_Combs_Premium_Preview_EP_1325/06__Steve_Combs_Through__Theme/ .
There's a certain degree of tedium in being courageous that I find exhausting. But in making daring decisions, there's a degree of excitement and surprising positive feedback.
Certain things don't register as daring because they're just the natural thing you do. You're not hyper-aware of the norm, so breaking it doesn't feel bold — it just feels like you.
Hi, I'm Diveya. Hi, I'm Kahran. Welcome to the 18th episode of Thinking on Thinking. Today we talked about the differences between courage and daring, which from the outset seemed like very similar concepts to us,
as we unraveled them and explored more and more, for examples from our own lives and about how we relate to both of those concepts. We came across something really interesting and we also discussed a bunch of dungeons and dragons in between. We hope you enjoy it.
So when you think about courage versus daring, I think that obviously there's a lot of underlying similarities. I think there's something interesting about how you're always applauded for being courageous, but you're not always applauded for being daring. And if I think about which aspect I might want to build into the company,
I would want people to be courageous. I don't know how much I want them to be daring, or I don't even think we are that daring necessarily, a little bit. I think we're very courageous at times and I'm glad that we are. So I think that there's obviously some distinction.
If one of them feels like the kind of thing we want to build into the company, and I'm not sure if you necessarily agree with me, but you know, and the other doesn't. And I think also the other aspect is very true, which is one of them is almost always applauded socially.
I wonder, okay, so it could be two things. One could be that there is a certain amount of foolhardiness that is required to be daring. Like the thing that I called self delusion previously, but you just need a little bit of I don't care about the outcome. And you generally, you give courage, awards to the victors, not to the losers.
That's interesting because I was just even thinking if you think about like myths, and I think myths are really interesting because they kind of tell values, right? People are always courageous. The people who are, or winners are always courageous. The people who are daring sometimes are like the sly rogues who like, you know,
they may be, they're like neutral chaotic. Yeah, this almost like this, you know, with courage, there is like he was brave enough to do X, Y, Z. And there is like he dared to do this, which doesn't always look a positive reaction. Okay, maybe the results are good this time.
Courage seems aspirational, but daring doesn't seem as aspirational. I think you just helped me, helped me see it, right? I think it's in exactly what you did, which was you went to the etymology of daring, which is from dare. And I think that's what it is, right?
It's what you're, when you're doing something that's socially not what you're supposed to do, that's daring. When you're doing something that is hard for you yourself to do, then that's courageous, hard or scary, whatever makes it hard. Like there's a personal cost to courage and there's a societal cost to daring,
which is that is where the idea of this person is a little, even the words I was using previously, foolhardy. Like, yeah, this person doesn't care about the social consequences of their actions. They don't care about how people are going to see them for the lack of a better term. While like when you're doing a courageous act, like, you know,
people in the military are generally doing courageous acts. They know how people are going to see them. They know there is going to be a lot of applause for it, whether they are like, it's not success or failure, but it is much more on the side of what you just said. How, like, where is the cost coming from?
I don't know if you know that there's this research about like how if someone sees someone needing help, but it's a large group of people, people are less likely to help. So this is the more people who observe like that the person in need, the less likely it is that someone will call a paramedics or right, because everyone will just assume it's someone else's problem.
And it'll become like, like, you know, almost like people like us do things like this. And then it's like, oh, I'm like all these people who are passers-by's, we don't stop because nobody is stopping. So there is an interesting research on that. You know, like initially what got people interested in the passer-by effect was this,
what was your name, Kittisoo or some like Kittisoo, some name like that, of this woman who come up. Murdered in New York or some major US city. I'm sorry. I'm like, really forgetting the details. But like, and none of the neighbors tried to help or anything like that. But the interesting thing is that was not the case at all.
Like people came and people helped her and like, you know, one of the neighbors was holding her as she died, was holding her hand and was like, oh, you're gonna be okay. And like the moment you think about that part of the story, certainly it makes you question, is the passer-by effect real that like people really don't care about others? And I think there is some research into, it's more of a freeze response because of the complication.
Am I supposed to do something or am I not? Is there somebody who's more capable than me in this situation of taking care of this thing? So it's coming less from apathy and more from insecurity? I'm like, really? Interesting.
Like, well, I was going to take it back to what we were saying, right? Which is like, I feel like there's some element of daring needed because like the social, the social convention at that moment is to not do something. But I think what you're saying is it's not a social convention. It's everyone basically is feeling their own ineptitude.
I'm feeling like someone else is more capable than me. It's one of those things. They're like, you know, how in airplanes, they don't ask a generic question of like, you know, can somebody help this person? They ask specifically who would be like, is there a nurse practitioner? Is there a doctor on this flight?
We have a baby. Do they say nurse practitioner? Is there a nurse or doctor? I don't think that I've ever heard like in. Yeah, I've only ever heard them say, is there a doctor on the plane?
I haven't even heard them say doctors also. But I'm just like, you know, I've only heard it, you know, in American flights, whatever shows and whatever, whatever. But like they don't really say generically, right? That oh, can anybody help? But it's more much more specific.
Well, and because I'm sure it's a spectrum, right? Some people believe they can always help. Some people believe they can never help. So right, like you want to find you want to use you want me just for this particular scenario, right? But you want to signal in the right way that you're getting people on the right level of the expertise and attitude like chart.
Very true. Or expertise slash confidence chart, I guess, right? People who are confident in their expertise, but not people who are confident in their expertise. Okay, so I have a question. You said that we wouldn't want to build a company where people are daring.
Overly daring. Yeah. Before we had the understanding of like, Realization. Yeah.
Yeah. I don't know. Now I might have to retract that statement because now that I've thought about what it means to be daring, I think that is closer to what I want. Like, I think part of what prompted me to even see the distinction between those two is because there's something intriguing about these daring fellows. I also just finished watching a show called Shadow and Bone, I believe.
I've heard the name. Yeah. Like it's a book series, right? Yeah, yeah, it's a book series. It just has like very, I don't know, daring characters.
Like it's very into that rogue sort of archetype. But archetype, thank you. So like lots of like people who are chaotic good to use my earlier, earlier reference, right? So they seem they're kind of self interested, but in the long run, they're trying to do right for the world. And those kind of characters are always being daring.
Hmm. This is so interesting that you take the D&D example, because generally when you're playing Dungeons & Dragons, that's how the lawful, neutral and chaotic spectrum is divided. Lawful is the person who abides by society's rules and chaotic is a person who does not care about society's rules. And like them being good and neutral and bad, that chart is more about where is the intent coming from. So you can be lawful evil and you can be chaotic good.
It's very interesting that in case of D&D, they have separated out the fact that how you relate to social conventions versus what your actions do to other people. Like the impact of your actions is separated out from the conventions, whether you follow them or you don't. Yeah, I think that's really interesting because when you think about the kind of roles that fall in, so like paladins are like these, these paragons of virtue, right? And they're always lawfully good.
I think actually there could be evil ones, right? But they would still be lawfully evil, right? Hmm. They're like knights, right? And they're always described as courageous, right?
They're not described as daring very rarely. And if they were, they would be like they would be breaking the archetype a little bit deliberately. Oh, wow. And on the other hand, rogues are generally described as chaotic. And like, so they are described as people who would be daring.
It's almost like, right, difference between samurai and ninjas in popular culture. We're like samurai is a scene as these men of honor and like courage, while ninjas are these stealthy people who would make daring choices and make things happen, but are not. The courage is not the attribute attributed to them. Yeah, and it's interesting you bring up Japanese culture in that way because I think there it's an interesting example of like, does it matter the victory or does it matter how you achieve the victory? Right.
So depending on where you as a society or as a group, people are putting the focus, like it may be more important how you're doing something versus what you're actually doing. And then that distinction between how you're whether you are doing something in a daring way versus a courageous way can really matter because one of them may feel aligned and one of them may not feel aligned. Do you feel like you fall like on that spectrum of like courageous and daring? Where would you place yourself? I think there's an aspect of where you would place yourself. I also think there's an aspect of where you aspire to be, at least for me.
Interesting. I think I aspire to be more daring than I am. I think I am pretty daring, but I think especially in certain aspects and certain venues, but I aspire to be more daring even. I actually think I'm a little bit less courageous than I am daring, interestingly. And when I start to fall into that distinction is worse. I start to feel a bit muddled.
I was going to ask which one of them feels aspirational more? Oh, being more daring. I'm not looking at me. Correct. Do you feel like this is like a muscle that you could use and get exhausted?
So for example, I wonder if like, you know, if one has taken a couple of daring decisions, do they feel more tired after that? And then they no longer want to be daring? Or is it one of those things where the more you do it, the easier it becomes and then the more you do it? I think it depends on where you feel costs and where you feel returns. So if you're someone who feels social costs more, then I think it's...
Like, I think that I had generally seen myself as someone who is fairly daring until recently when I realized, huh, I am way more afraid than I would like to be. And that was a sad realization, a little bit painful. Not that we started this topic so that we could talk about this, but like it's been on my mind that does it make you more exhausted? Because you have taken daring decisions and then like as you continue to follow through your decisions, it just becomes more tiring. Or does it become, oh, I need to care less because I honestly feel like both of those things have happened to me.
I feel it easier and I feel it's harder. No, I don't know. I feel like courageous decisions feel much more exhausting to me than daring decisions. Because I think for me at least it feels like there's a certain degree of like tedium in being courageous that I find just very exhausting. But in making daring decisions, I feel like there's a degree of like excitement. And I guess depending on your environment, there can also be like surprising feedback, like positive feedback.
You know, something that you and I have talked about is like that you've painted every place that you've stayed in. In some ways that's pretty daring, right? Is it? I think so. Like it's not what you socially do. You don't start painting the walls of a place you don't own, especially with like art.
I don't know. It's again, though, that's where I was stuck into thinking for so long because it depends a lot on what is true around you socially, right? Depending on your community, something may feel daring, which would not be daring in a different community. I'm also just like, as you said that I realized certain things do not register as daring because it's just the natural thing that you do. And because you're not aware of, as in it's a daring action in terms of the fact that socially that's not the norm. But because you're not hyper aware of the norm and the norm is not being enforced, it doesn't feel loaded.
But if there is a norm that is continuously trying to be imposed on you, then that feels a lot more exhausting. I think again, that's a mark of a person. Like for example, my husband, you could give him an arduous task that he has to complete. Like for example, he has to go to work every day. And it's this 80 minute journey that he takes and he does it in a way that he feels is faster where he walks about, I would say between like maybe about half a mile between two stops.
And I think he's done it every day except for one. Now, some days it's really unpleasant. It's rain, it's snow, it's like really unpleasant, right? But he doesn't find that he just, he just keeps doing it, right? Like he has this kind of like, I don't know, fortitude, I mean bravery and all sorts of inclement weather, right? Like it doesn't bother him and it doesn't even feel like, I don't think it drains him to make that choice every day.
It's very much he's made this choice and this is who he is. Like he's made this choice, he feels no need to reassess that choice and whatever he needs to do to do that choice, he will bring bear to muster. I would say that that to me, there's some degree of courage in that choice. Yeah, that's a courage, your choice. Because he's taking a lot of personal cost for making this choice.
Whether it's on the effort side or it's on the thinking side. Whereas I suspect knowing him the way I do that, having to make a daring choice every day would be much more exhausting. Like for example, if he was to think about a route every day, right? And try out different routes every day, that would be very exhausting. It's also not what one does, you know?
That's not necessarily daring either, right? That just really sounds exhausting. I wouldn't find it exhausting. I find it really entertaining. Like I would try all the different choices, all the different ones. Because you're very driven by novelty.
But that's also very interesting, right? Because it's not like the cost is the only thing that you're thinking about. Like is the cost on me or is the cost that I'm doing something against society? Of course, that's one part. But you could be getting multiple things out of a thing also.
And maybe that does not feel as exhausting. No, I don't know. I think that there's a separate thing with daring things where I think, yes, there's a degree of anticipation. It's like, for example, when I wear, like sometimes I will tend to wear like very, just not typical kind of things, right? Like I have a choker that I like to wear and I anticipate that someone will often make a comment about it, right? Similarly, I have this like teal jacket that I love to wear.
And like I know that when I'm wearing something like that, that people will often make a comment because it's just not typical for what men, particularly Indian men, will wear in New York City. So there's a degree of anticipation, which is kind of, I think, part of making daring choices. But I don't think the novelty has to be there. Like I think there's enough intrinsic value in making a daring choice.
And I think there's things that are, I don't want to say co-morbidities, but tend to go with the kind of daring choice. And I would say anticipation is part of that. But here there's also another fact, right? When you're doing something rebellious, if you're a certain kind of person, there is something rewarding about doing something rebellious automatically. I think daring choices are rebellious.
And every time somebody points it out, it could be grating, but it could also be reinforcing of the fact that there was something like different about what you did. So every time someone comes to you when you're wearing your shiny pants or your choper or your teal jacket, you think, huh, I know that this is not the thing that Indian men would wear in New York City. And like, so there is a sort of reinforcement of your identity that you're like, yes, I am different. And like when somebody comes and points it out to you, it is reinforcing that. I'm not saying it's not daring, but I'm just saying there's another supportive sort of structure there.
Like once you've made the choice that I'm going to be daring about this thing, it's almost like opposition makes, feels like support. Does that make sense? It does. And maybe support is the wrong word. Maybe what I'm trying to say is like opposition feels like confirmation of your choice.
Like, yeah, all of these normies are not going to do this. I am different than these normies and I'm going to do this. That's interesting. I was also just thinking about how that fits with. There's a group that you belong to in a group you aspire to.
And how how you're signaling or kind of like switching between your us groups kind of can impact with that because when you're rebellious to rebellious against a group that you're part of, or somewhat part of, but at some point you will find a group of similarly rebellious people and then you will not be rebellious with them because Yeah, you're all rebellious against something else. Yeah. So I'm not sure how I wonder if there's a point where your daring choices start to stop being as daring and they start to just being courageous choices. They start being confirmatory. Yes.
And that also like that I was talking about where like I have been feeling this thing that maybe I'm not as like, daring as I would like to be. It's also partially this thing that you just articulated that sometimes your daring choices just stop being there. That's just the social expectation from you. Yeah. Have you seen Glass and You?
No. What is that? It's a movie, Ed Norton, Daniel Craig. It's the new Nys Out. Okay.
And in that Ed Norton's character says this thing that first you break the thing that everybody wants you to break. Then you start breaking things that people expect you to break. Then you go on breaking things and you break things that people are uncomfortable with you breaking because nobody ultimately wants you to break the system. Can you keep doing that? And while it's like, you know, one of those startup founder thingies that people just say because it sounds fun and like not necessarily isn't necessarily as defesit as shown to be, but there was something about that.
Like that dialogue just came to my mind when you were talking about at some point, maybe the things that are daring stop being daring and they just become the courageous thing like, oh, you made a difficult choice, but there isn't a social cost associated with the difficulty of the choice. But then I don't know if like you were saying a few minutes ago, is it necessary that you yourself perceive the choice as daring? Like, and maybe this is kind of a postulation to answer my own question. But when I was saying at the beginning of our conversation that I am not sure about building a company that feels daring.
Well, at some point, even if we do build a company that feels daring, it'll stop feeling daring to the people in the company. Yeah, because that will be the culture we've created. Right. So I don't know if, but I don't know if it needs to necessarily feel daring all the time. I wonder if it if it's an is it enough if it's feeling daring to the people you care about it feeling daring to. Whether that's your audience or that's your constituents.
That is so interesting. Yeah, that is so interesting. I think it's interesting because I think we realize that daring is in daring can only be true in relation to someone else's expectations. Yeah, someone is looking at that and saying it's daring, similar to being courageous to right someone is looking at it saying being courageous, but I think you can look at it and say it was courageous. I think it's harder for you to look at it and know, sorry, you can have an actually and speculate pretty accurately whether it's going to be perceived as courageous.
I think it's harder for you yourself to have an action or undertaking action and perceive accurately whether or not it's going to be daring. Yeah. It's also very interesting because I started working when I was in third year of college, which is like not the norm in India. I also did it for placements, definitely not the norm and go to a top college. And the interesting thing is my brother and sister did exactly that they were already working by the time they were in their third year.
They had figured out a separate path from whatever their degree was and they ended up like you know, choosing freelancing life just like I did. And for them, even when I talk to them, it really doesn't feel like a daring choice. It feels courageous because it's different from like, you know, the easier path code and code where get a job and like, you know, just make some money. But at the same time, it really doesn't feel to them like it's rebellious because the social structure around us has evolved enough. So like when you were saying that, you know, even if you build a company which is daring, internally, people will not feel like it's daring because they are not.
They are just doing the thing. And when I see my siblings, that's what's happening. Like they are just doing the thing. They are doing what they want to do. And sometimes it's hard and it might be harder in some ways, but there isn't a, oh, I am rebelling against the system kind of a feeling. While when I did it, I felt like I'm rebelling against the system. I am courageous to help us be daring.
Are I'm daring to help us be courageous? More like? Well, because I feel like like as you think about it from a company level, the company as a whole can be daring. But to the individual people in the company, they will just be courageous every day. Hmm.
You're breaking rules as a collective to ensure the safety of the collective or like the integrity of the collective in some ways. Safety is maybe not the right word, but the integrity of the collective is not harmed because you are making daring choices outside of the collective. Correct. Cool. That was fun. Yeah, that was really quite fun.
This might be like one of my favorite episodes in a while. I think we should do more of these exploring episodes. I think they're very interesting where we kind of look at two concepts that are very similar and look at how we are different. Hmm. I think that like the fact that you and I look at things differently but analytically, lends itself very well to this exploration as well. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Bye.
Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Thinking on Thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes. If you found any of the topics we talked about interesting this week, we'd invite you to get in touch with us. We'd love to invite you on the podcast or just have a conversation about how these topics applied in your business and in the decisions and problems that you're struggling with. You can get in touch with us on our website, joyus.studio, or by reaching out to Divya or me, Kyon, directly.