Thinking on Accepted Truths, Defaults and How We Got Here
This week, we talked about the ideas of constants and permanence in ideas
Kahran: Hi, I'm Karin.
Divya: Hi, I'm Divya. Thinking.
Kahran: Thinking. And this is thinking on thinking. And welcome to the 30th episode of thinking on thinking. This week, we talked about the ideas of constants and permanence in ideas, how culturally or as groups, we kind of take a. As a given that certain things are the way they are, and sometimes they aren't necessarily the way they are. We explore it through a couple of different topics, but it was definitely one of our favorite episodes that we are ending our third season with, and we hope you enjoyed it as well.
Dear Hank and John got some feedback that episode 28 was difficult to understand
Something we were talking about just before recording this episode was just that we've got some feedback that episode 28 was kind of just difficult to understand. and I was thinking about it, and I feel like. I think part of it was because we have spent so much time thinking about how difficult it is to start things and how difficult it is to, I don't know, that disconnect between what you want to do and what you actually do and, like, who you want to be and who you actually behave. And we spend a lot of time, I think, kind of, like, in that place on those topics. So, yeah, it's not super surprising to me, because I think that topic is a little bit of an applied version of those.
Divya: Yeah. I also was unsure because, So, like, both of the people who gave this feedback are people who have not known me for too long. Like, they've known me like, one person has known me for maybe six months. One person has known me for, like, a year and a half. They are really smart people, and they're really nice people, but I don't think they're particularly familiar with me, which means that they might not be particularly familiar with our, thinking process. and I don't know how much they listen to podcasts, but I was also thinking about it in terms of. Like, what does this feedback tell us? That are we becoming too in our own heads or too niche? Almost? Like, you know, if somebody were to listen to an episode of Dear Hank and John, somebody who doesn't understand block brothers or hasn't been familiar with their content would be like, guys, I am so lost. What are these things that you're talking about? And what are these jokes that you're making?
Kahran: Oh, I tried to listened to it, and I was so lost. Right. And I've, like, listened to all of them reviewed. I've read, like, all of John Green's books, actually, at this point, at least maybe 80% of them. Right. And I still was so lost because I've never watched their YouTube, so I've never seen that much of Hank. And you can't just drop into their podcast really easily.
Divya: that is so interesting. Yeah, because, like, I think that feedback just made me think that, oh, you guys are probably like, they are Hank and John.
Kahran: It's just so interesting because I was smiling a little bit while you were talking there, because I was thinking about how I grew up in a context where, if someone has a question, other people have that question, but they're afraid to raise their hands. It's just something we're very much taught as children. You should always ask the question because you're not just asking it for yourself. You're asking it for all the people who want to ask the question but are afraid to raise their hands. And being the kind of person I am, I'm like, oh, wait, I'm helping people by asking questions. Oh, my God. Yes. But, it's interesting because I was thinking about the feedback in that context, right? Where I was like, oh, if you know, someone is saying this, there's probably ten other people who felt this but didn't raise their hand, right? But I was smiling because I was thinking about how you came from a very different context where you were like, what qualifiers should I put on this incoming information? Or how should I contextualize this incoming information appropriately so that I understand just where it goes? Right. Like, how much weight should I put on it? Where should it be applicable? What does it tell me outside of the information in itself? Right. Like, you were looking at all of these kind of, like, factors around.
Divya: I mean, I've still asked them for, like, you know, more detailed feedback, because this feedback was given in kind of, like, a social setting. So, of course there isn't all of the information. You know, like, a lot of it was just lost because a lot of people were speaking up and random stuff was happening. yeah, I think that is such an interesting thing to point out, because I think that I have generally seen feedback for art that I have made in precisely that manner. I think this is, like, how I have generally ingested information about my art. like, feedback about my art. It's not going to be for everyone. Like, somebody who likes very gothic or very grungy work is never gonna appreciate what I create. or even, like, you know, somebody who likes very realistic work is not gonna appreciate what I create.
Kahran: But don't you feel like this is part of our target audience, right? Because, like, I was working on a case study about our podcast. And I was trying to write, like, who our target audience was as part of, like one of the sections of the case study. And so I was saying, I think it was people who are interested in self improvement, but also an intersection in place with people who are entrepreneurs. And maybe it's not an intersection of actual union, but, yeah, so I kind of called out those groups and I feel like, aren't these, these two people who gave you the feedback are kind of like startup founder, right?
Divya: Like they are in that space. Yeah.
You know, whenever we have talked about segmentation, I have always felt off
That is so interesting, because, like, I would think that our podcast would be interesting to people who like to think about things in a particular way and also to people who listen to podcasts quite regularly. You know, for the longest time, whenever we have talked about segmentation, I have always felt a little bit off about it, whether it is segmentation of like, you know, our potential customers or our clients potential customers. like, I've always had a very unexplainable, but this doesn't sit right with me kind of attitude, towards it. And I think today, I was watching a video where they were talking about the difference between instrumental solving and communicative solving or something like that. basically it's like, are you doing things because they fit in a particular category, or are you doing things because they communicate a certain feeling? To give a more elaborate example, he shows a bunch of different images. Like, for example, one image is like, you know, pride parade, and it's, Goldman Shaxx showing their pride, symbols, like it's a lot of rainbows and a lot of like, you know, very brightly colored people. And then the other side is this like, girl with colored hair, kinda quirky dressing, and it's just her face, right? And, like, the question is, which one of these pictures feels queer to you? And then of course, it's the, you know, vaguely bisexual looking girl that 86% of the people chose as like, you know, more queer picture, same, thing, like, you know, a similar image. and basically what he was ultimately trying to explain was that when you look at the way rainbow imagery is used by corporate and capitalistic, sort of culture, they are trying to communicate a series of checkboxes. And when a human is trying to communicate their identity, what they are trying to do is actually express themselves. Basically, capitalists do not have anything to express. They are just trying to check boxes while this person actually does have something to express. And so they fit the category a lot better. And the people who are in group actually do understand it. Like in his survey, which was some 8000 participants, 90, 6% of them were queer. And like, it's just interesting that like there were a bunch of different, like three different images like this. And almost always like, the skew was heavily on the side of like close to 80% skew towards the side of, you know, non capitalistic imagery. And it's just,
Kahran: Well, that one seems like a pretty extreme example too, though, right?
Divya: No, but like, think about it. Of course this video was about the socio political, like capitalistic. This what, rainbow economy or some stuff like that. Like, I don't remember what exactly. like, it was a very entertaining and interesting video, but I think that like, my brain naturally tries to form the boxes around communicative system rather than the instrumental system. And that is why the checkboxes never really sit right with me. Because I feel like even if you check all the boxes, it doesn't really matter because it still might not connect with the person. For example, going back to John and Hank, the reason why I feel connected to them, they are. I did not know Hank was bisexual for the longest time, but they are two seemingly straight, like ten plus years older than me, mediocrely rich men from America. Like, I should not be finding connection with them. Right? but the fact that they both love creating things, they love creating things together. And there is an earnestness, with which they look at the world. That is what I think their entire community. That is what connects the community to them. These are not checkboxes, right?
Kahran: Well, no, but that is a, I mean, that is a characteristic.
Divya: And that's the whole point that like, just because something can seem like a characteristic, being interested in creating things can show up in hundred different ways.
Kahran: Correct. But you still can put together a series of behaviors that you can make someone step through that will help reveal to you what's either way, either false positives or false negatives. Right? You'll choose which side you want to.
Divya: Bias towards the way you created the category. You said that it would be people who are entrepreneurial, people who would be doing this. not about how they feel or how they think.
Kahran: No, you're quite right.
Divya: The way this person also described it is like, you know, you go from sort of putting a label on someone rather than understanding their action. You go from a verb to a noun. And that is where the sort of break happens.
Kahran: You know, that's so interesting. It actually kind of reminds me of something that we were talking about in last episode. But how one of the things about working with chat, GPT is once you see it in one way, it almost makes you, you have to think of why not to do it that way.
Divya: Yeah.
Kahran: It creates a normal. Right, yeah. and so I think that's interesting because I had it generate all of the case studies initially, right. So I worked with it on maybe five or six of them. And so we had created an audience and the audiences were all in that way. Right. Like, and I didn't stop to really question, like, because it's one of the things where now that you've pushed me on it, it feels so obvious to me, right. Where I'm like, oh, right, why was I not thinking about it like that? Of course. Course, the kind of people that we would be interested in our podcast are not so much shaped by their, by their current vocation as much as they're shaped by the way they think and how they spend their time. Right. But so then I was kind of walking back through, like, why did I kind of, I didn't examine that part of the problem, right. I kind of took that and said, oh, yeah, this is, it's fine. No, it's just interesting.
Divya: I mean, it's also like, you are also fighting against a bigger force there.
Kahran: Which is audiences are, you know, 99% of the time defined in a certain way, which is around their vocation and, you know, the demographics and. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Divya: I think that, it's very valid, and it's also very valid that chat GPT did it that way. But it just, I don't know. Until I saw that video today, I never really understood that. Oh, this is why it never connects with me, because my brain keeps throwing back at me that the box is invalid. Like, the box will not fit and will not form a deep connection. Like, this box doesn't define people like us do things like this.
Kahran: This is kind of a crazy example. M but a few months ago, I was in Mexico with my husband for someone's wedding, and we stayed at this place called exaret. And it was basically like, at least to me, and I've never spent very much time at, like, Disneyland or Disney World, but it felt to me like it was that, except designed for a totally non american audience. and there were just these small little things I hadn't really realized are so important to an american audience, which is an american audience is very centered around privacy. You're never going to use an outdoor space if you feel like everyone can see you. And these were just designed where four or 500 people could see you, and still people are lying out in tiny swimsuits on their balconies. Right. Like, it was just. It felt very much more like southern european, like, kind of like Spain or, like. Like latino culture. Right. Like it was designed for. and I was just thinking about how it's so interesting. Like, you don't really almost realize how many things are kind of cultural signaling until you realize, until you see them that they're in places where they're not. Right. And I think some of what we're. What we're talking about here is kind of coming from that space.
India is a lot more evolved than the United States, right
Right.
Divya: Yeah. It's almost like forcing one to ask, do fish have a word for water?
Kahran: Yeah. And I think something, like kind of interrelated but also slightly different space. I've been thinking about in the US, there's not as much text message spam.
Divya: Yeah.
Kahran: so it's interesting because I feel like, like, there. It's like, culturally, India is actually a lot more evolved than. Than America is or because eventually, I think everyone is going to reach where India is, where there's so much text message spam that people just don't read most of their texts. People only read WhatsApp or, you know, like, some sort of more direct form of communication. And so. And most of Asia is like that. Right. So I don't know where. I think. Yeah, I think, like, different cultures are progressing in different ways, but I think a lot of times, because we're responding to the same forces. Like, people are on similar sort of roads.
Kahran: I'm not sure if, like, the definitions of, like, of how technology looks at audiences and technology looks at, like, I don't know, just product design. They've become so pervasive, though, that I don't know if that. That is something that, like, there are cultural differences in different parts of the world. You know, like, we have these kind of accepted ideas that, yes, an audience is young, recently married woman with a kids under five. Right. Like, that is almost, like, world over. We started thinking about audiences in that way, and I think, are we on a cultural shift anywhere where we start to think about, oh, you know, an audience is someone who has had kind of life experiences that make them deeply value money, but also deeply value connection, but not put as much weight on, maybe appearances. I was gonna say uncertainty, but, yeah, maybe like, appearances and uncertainty. Right. And then, like, how do you design a product for someone who. Those are the things they value, and these are the things that they're willing to maybe sacrifice and how do you think about how much to pay for that? because also think about how much people's willingness to pay for that is, especially before you're gonna connect with people at a different level.
Divya: You know, as you were talking about it, it also made me think of, I am sure that, like, a lot of social media companies, especially, meta, was really close to a different way of looking at people. Because if you just think about somebody who has three friends that they regularly talk to versus somebody who has, like, 50 friends, but they do not dm anybody, versus somebody who has, like, 50 friends, and they do dm them all the time, they could be, these could be people who are going to the same college, who are studying the exact same thing, who have parents in the same social bracket, but are exhibiting extremely different behaviors. and, like, rather than thinking about, oh, this is just additional information beyond their age and gender and whatnot, it could actually be like, okay, let's think about this as a product. Honestly, I don't know. They might have done it at some level, but I don't think that they pivoted around thinking about people just in terms of their social connections.
Kahran: Yeah, no, you're totally right, because they were willing to do sentiment analysis, so they knew if you were getting happier or sadder, so then they would be able to see if certain connections were building happiness or sadness. And because they're willing to suggest friends. Right. Like, you know, and they knew that there was some. Some percentage of people would click on the suggested friend some percentage of time. Right. So that's just like, that's just then just numbers you can try and optimize. Yeah. It's really interesting the choices they made, because they really could have done really different things. Right. They could have helped people find more connection and less loneliness, and they kind of didn't choose to, really.
Divya: So I feel like right now we have a very Silicon Valley definition of what is connection and what is loneliness. It has partially evolved from, like, you know, your sort, of World War two era psychoanalysts, giving some understanding of psychology. But I think that loneliness looks very different for different people. Like, you and I have experienced this, like, both of us, at different points. We want to see people in different contexts. Like, yesterday was my sister's birthday, so the previous night, we went for a party. Like, we had a party at her place. There were a bunch of close friends. It was a lot of fun. But also yesterday, she and I hung out for 3 hours, and we just talked, like, you know, my friend, like, my closest friend and I, we often talk about this, that, yeah, we have been meeting just in social like, format. We have to meet one on one. Right. Like, how we feel. Connection is so different depending on where we are emotionally, where we are in a relationship with somebody. And, like, that's such a complex understanding of, like, you know, if I'm not seeing any one of five of my close friends for 15 days in a one on one setting, regardless of how much socialization I might have done, I am not going to feel connected and I'm going to start feeling lonely.
Kahran: Sure. I totally give you this right, but I think if you remember who you were in the early two thousand ten s and then think about some m of the maybe more magical Facebook pieces you maybe have seen. I have a friend, who was a few years older than me in high school, and she describes herself, I think, as a syrian, jewish, bisexual witch, which I just love in all context, but will have these incredibly kind of heartfelt posts about just her experience in Oakland, where she was living, and now she's in Portland, and she's, a therapist and works with kind of disadvantaged communities and just had a lot of life experiences herself. right. And I just feel like if Facebook had showed you more of those kinds of posts, and for me, those are posts that make me react certain way. Right. Because I feel, you know, emotionally in a. In a way that I think stores my feelings of empathy and compassion. Right. Whereas I think that they kind of, like, they biased for posts that kind of stirred the most intensity of reaction, which kind of, regardless of what side it went to. M and that I think it's, you know, yes, you may eventually need the connection in real life, but I think the kind of, like, spillovers from what each kind of content and how the content you're seeing online is making you feel. I don't know, I just think, like, it wasn't really a place that you necessarily had to throw up your hands in the air and be like, oh, yeah, whatever drives the most engagement. Because, like, we knew what kind of engagement was doing early on.
Divya: No, fair. Fair. No, I think I was talking more from the perspective of, I think that they could have had a richer definition of connection and, like, not just a unidimensional one. And while I was giving a, real life example, I did mean it, that they could have a richer definition of connection. But you were also saying. I think we were both saying the same thing, but from different, examples. But yeah, I fully agree. I also think that, like, this is where that articulation of instrumental versus communicative really made a lot of sense to me because, yeah, if you want to like, sort of fill an excel sheet, then engagement is a good metric and then defining engagement of how much likes and comments and shares something gets and you weigh it differently and it just like very neatly fits in an equation and you can put it in that excel sheet and that's awesome. But, oh, this person felt a little bit happier today because they saw this thing about this friend that you were talking about who lived in Oakland and like, you know, would share these heartfelt things. You felt a bit more connection to her. Like, alike is not vibrant enough to capture that.
Kahran: Yeah, yeah, yeah. and like, probably because of how much she's shared through these posts over the years is like, the reason I still feel connected to her, even though we haven't seen each other in more than a decade, you know, but I don't think it's impossible for them to have captured. Right. Like, I think it would have been a challenge, but I think it isn't. Yeah. You would have been able to use the same sort of sentiment analysis to kind of give a sense of strength of connection. Like posts, engagement, all sorts of things.
Divya: I have a very harsh statement here. I think they couldn't do it because they were all engineers.
My response time on new messages is usually two minutes, right
Kahran: I don't know if I agree with that. I think they couldn't do it because they didn't want to prioritize it, you.
Divya: Know, because they were all engineers. Oh, because they were all engineers. Yeah. No, because, like, think about it. I mean, as somebody who was trained as an engineer and had to shift thinking in a more liberal, artsy stance, I can see the shift in my thinking. Like telling a, 22 year old engineer, philosophy is important because it helps you perspective eyes of the world. He's going to reply with, you don't know. I think logically, I know how the world works and you are wrong. And there is like zero interest in thinking about world in a non categorical manner. Entirety of pure sciences forces you to think about it and we the, like, you know, the earlier thing that you said that a lot of these things are so imbibed that you don't even think about this is questionable or this is a design variable.
Kahran: That's so interesting. It reminds me of something, actually, I was talking about with my therapist, a couple of days ago that I've realized I've been spending more time, you know, just in like, things I feel, give me small dopamine hits. And I was giving her as an example that my response time on new messages, is, at worst, it's 30 minutes, but usually it's two minutes. Regardless of the time of day, regardless of what I'm doing. it's because you just get a new message. And particularly if you get a new grinder message, it's this thrill of, did someone think you were hot? that's the thing that she and I were kind of realizing, though, is I think it's just because I haven't seen, like, I haven't been able to spend time with a lot of my close friends, and a lot of that is because of how New York is. It's just. It's hard to kind of make time and find time. Everyone is very busy. Right. and so, you know, you end up kind of chasing these smaller moments.
Divya: I wonder how one would become more sensitive to it because, like, see how you just did that thing here? This is how New York is. And you just thought of that as a permanent variable. Like, it could. Not as a variable, but as a constant trouble.
Kahran: Well, it's almost like I didn't want the you to feel bad. Right. Or maybe our listener to feel bad. Like, that's the. That's the instinct you have, right? You're like, oh, you know, you want to assure someone that, oh, it's fine. Right? Like, yes, I have this problem, but, like, it's fine because of this thing, so you don't need to feel bad for me.
Divya: Interesting, right?
Kahran: And in this case, it was like, oh, New York is the shared experience that all these people are here are having. So you don't need to worry about me, because I'm in a situation where this is normal for everyone here, you know?
Divya: But also, like, labeling it as normal would make it harder for you to think that, oh, this could be changeable. Right. That is what we are talking about.
Kahran: Yeah. And the reason why I'm, like, able to so easily kind of engage with you on it is because, like, my therapist and I have talked about it, right. It's something that we're making a plan around, right. Where I'm trying to, like, have various kind of strategies for, like, things that I'll do kind of to help me both find more people to connect with and to kind of connect with my friends more easily on a regular basis. So I'm someone who, like, if you just looked at the metrics of my behavior, right, I might only spend an hour and a half on Instagram a day, but I'm someone who I can contact switch really easily. So I might look at Instagram for 7 seconds a thousand times in my day.
Divya: Oh, my God. Okay.
Kahran: Because I just will look at it, I'll respond to that message, I'll go back to what I'm doing. So if I was the one building it and looking at those analytics, I wouldn't necessarily see an issue. Potentially, I would be like, oh, yeah, look, my user is coming back to my app. They're spending a reasonable amount of time in it. And I think that idea that you kind of have a responsibility, what does it happen when someone is checking my app a thousand times in a day for multiple days, for years. Yeah, right. Or even, like, what does it happen? When do I have a responsibility? When someone's spending a quarter of their waking hours on my app, you know, like, where do those. But I don't think you start from there. Right? No one. No one teaches you when you're learning how to build things that, like, oh, yeah, you have a responsibility to the people you're building for.
Divya: no, there is an anti responsibility culture, rather, because almost always the conversations around product building, whether it is the VC's or it's the founders, they come around, oh, there are only 24 hours in a day, and my user can only spend so much of it with me, and how can I keep most of it on my platform? And it's such a, it's such a dark thought. Like, it's almost like thinking, oh, I have a best friend, but how can I make sure that she talks to nobody else? That's what that thought is, right?
Kahran: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's something I think we talked about a while ago. I mean, maybe in our, even our first or second season, but this idea of, like, sustainability and attention, m. Yeah, I don't think that idea, even in the last year, has really started to grow very much in the industry that, like, people's attention is a resource. And as designers, we have to be cognizant of the fact that we are exhausting it. Yeah, but it's kind of like a public good, you know? And I don't think, like, as a society, especially a capitalist society, we're very good at valuing public goods. I don't know. That's a contentious statement.
Divya: no, that is fairly true from whatever we are seeing right now. but I think that a very interestingly hopeful thought that I've come across a couple of times recently is.
Kahran: Yeah.
Divya: So one of the new friends that I've made, she, like, via AI ah, community. She has a podcast, which is about care and building with care.
Kahran: Okay.
Divya: so like she interviews people who are parents and people who are building things in this world generally, who are a mix of artists and programmers. And how are those people thinking about things? and that is interesting because like somebody who comes from an art background and then goes into development will have a very different set of criteria. One of the people who gave us the feedback, but also the friend who is basically leading the genei community in Bangalore, he was talking about how there are a lot of people who are way more experienced and who are probably way better at this stuff. It's just that we care and because we care we show up, and because we show up again and again, persistently, we are going to do better than them because we care. And there's one more instance that is like slipping my mind right now. but I was just like, either the shape of my bubble has started shifting towards people who care or the world has started shifting towards people who care are getting rewarded. I don't know, it could be either, but I was delighted in both cases.
Kahran: Yeah, that's interesting. You reminded me actually how when I was first starting out in my career, and this is the early, mid two thousands, and I did some internships at Microsoft. It was still that era where Microsoft would hire as, and then it was PM's were program managers, but there was this big focus on hiring people who were not from a tech industry. It was important that you understood people, right? So you'd have people whose background was in HR or in art or something.
I wonder if now maybe we're starting to swing back towards public goods
And those were the people who were kind of the program managers because you were responsible for the product and for helping people use the product. Well, it's interesting because, yeah, I think those were kind of people who cared about people as kind of the primary trait. And then I think that the industry grew so much that we kind of swung away from that. And I wonder if now maybe we're starting to swing back. I don't know. I had an interesting conversation with a young man, a couple of weeks ago, who was really focused on the notion that he wanted to build software that would last and would deliver value to people for a long time, maybe even generations. But he was like, I don't care if I make money from the software. What really matters to me is building something that adds value to the world, open source. The way he understood it was so important to him. that was kind of even making it difficult for him to think about what job he wanted to do, because this kind of building something that would have lasting value was such an important driver. So I don't know. I mean, maybe there are people who are thinking more about public goods differently and how do we value them and how do we kind of help people m and even kind of in that notion, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, there are more and more apps that I think help do what I always kind of hoped things would do, which is, like, in your best moments, help you make decisions for your worst moments. right. So, like, I have a fitness app now that it really requires nothing from me during, when I'm at the gym. Right. And even kind of in, like, the planning, it just made it. So I had to set up my kind of plan once, right. And now I can do check ins, I can engage more with it, and I can invest more when I want to. Right. So in those moments, but in the moments when I don't really want to, it's kind of persistent. Kind of like duolingo is right. It's kind of persistent in those moments when you don't feel like doing it to get you to do it, because in your moment when you really did want to do it, you made a decision for yourself.
Divya: Interesting.
Kahran: So that is, you know, that is helping you achieve the goals you're after, which is kind of thinking about at least helping the user versus just wanting something from the user.
Divya: Yeah, yeah. Just like a child being like, no, give me more, give me more, give me more. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kahran: I think it would be a good.
With our next season, we plan to move to more of an interview format
An interesting topic for us to kind of explore. I know we kind of had meant to talk a little bit about the season ahead where. But maybe worth even just spending a minute or two because I think with our next season, which we're starting with our next episode, we're planning to move to more of an interview format. and I think kind of maybe talking to some of our guests about the sustainability and attention and how they are thinking about it in their industries or even just in their lives. It's kind of an interesting idea.
Divya: oh, yeah. Actually, that might be a good exercise for us to do. Just, like, go through a roster again and think about what are the topics that keep coming back and what are the themes that keep coming back? And maybe those are the lenses. I mean, on a broad level, how do you think is the tone of our podcast? Almost always. But, like, you know, what are the different things that we keep weaving those threads around? It would be interesting to just ask whoever we are interviewing around those things. I really like this idea of sustainability, in attention, and just, like, asking different people what their different perspectives for those would be.
Kahran: Yeah, it actually was top of mind for me because I was reviewing some of our older documents, a few days ago, or I think it was actually just yesterday. Right. And I think we had, like, traits for the future or something was something that we wrote down at one point, and there were, like, kind of ideas that we wanted to include incorporate into the company. I don't know. I really get. You've been very good about that. I feel like, in pushing us for that, but I feel like writing your thinking down at different points is just so helpful because then you can kind of refer back to it. And a lot of times there are these ideas that you had half formed at one point, and now when you look back at it, you're like, yes, sustainability inattention is exactly what we're trying to think about and talk about in a lot of ways. but, yeah, no, this has been really fun. I love exploring these ideas with you.
Divya: Oh, my God. Same. Oh, my God. Now we're gonna have to do it privately and have to actually interview people. Yeah, but I'm excited. Okay, bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Goombs.
Kahran: If you found this topic to be interesting or have other topics you wish we would explore on a future episode, please reach out to us at, our website, joyous studio.
