Thinking on Designing Expectations

This week, we talked about expectations and how those shape your experience

Kahran: Hi, I'm Karin.

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya. Thinking, thinking.

Kahran: And this is thinking on thinking. Welcome to the 26th episode of thinking on thinking. This week, we talked about expectations and how those shape your experience, and then we moved in the conversation into, how can you deal with that as a product designer? How can be cognizant of how creating pre experiences for people is going to shape the experience you have and hopefully make it into the experience that you want them to have?

Divya: Seth Gordon has this, like, really interesting definition of quality, and I have found it to be a very helpful, I guess, barrier against perfectionism. And he's like, quality is whatever meets the spec, and you have to define when you are starting something or when you're working on something, that. What does meeting the spec in this case, mean? And it would be your own, like, you know, expectations, and it would be your customers expectations or, like, viewers or readers, whoever's expectation. But, like, sometimes we get stuck because we're nothing. Understanding what expectation we are trying to meet. And whose. And is that even a relevant expectation? You know what I mean?

Kahran: Yeah, I mean, I hear you on that. But, like. Like, the example that immediately comes to mind for me, and partly, you know, just because of my background, is, like, in fine dining, you'll create these experiences that are so thought through. Right. I think I've given you this example previously on the podcast. But, I remember there was one restaurant I once went to where every dish, like, the physical serving platter or dish or whatever, was constructed with the food in mind. Right. So he would. And I think, if I remember correctly, that chef actually was a potter, right. So he would actually create the dish itself, and then he would figure out the food that, like, best accompanied.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Right. And so I feel like when you can kind of connect with people on that level, there's a certain joy in that.

Divya: yeah, he's a tastemaker, sure, but he is doing it like, you know, he is setting the expectation for himself. Like, the problem is that when you have nebulous expectations, which means that you are not defining what does good mean in this case and for whom, it's very hard to push things out because your brain can always come up with one more thing that could be improved in it before it needs to be shipped to. He's not saying don't make great work. So, for example, if I think about product design versus game making, the maker of Mario has this statement that nobody would praise you if you just release a game on the date that you expected it. To be released on, everybody would be happy to wait for two months for a great game. I'm, paraphrasing him, but basically his point is that, you know, people would be okay with waiting for something that's not true for products because the expectations for products are different. Like, if somebody is making a movie, you would be okay with waiting a little bit for movie if, quote, unquote, the quality bar is met. On the other hand, if, like, let's say you're building a product and instead of, like, you know, let's say your user's expectation for, like, a release cycle is something like 15 days, and you are, like, continuously releasing in a month, like, you're always two weeks later than whatever is your user's expectation, what are you delaying it for?

Kahran: So that I feel like I understand better. Right. Because there is a whole notion of, like, being time constrained that I feel like a lot of the companies that I kind of grew up in had this as the kind of, like, barrier, right? Like, we only have this much time to do something, and so it's like, what amount of work can be done in that timeframe? And then we have to prioritize accordingly. The interesting kind of thing that I hadn't so much thought about until you kind of have conjectured it in this way, that when you don't have a time constraint, you have to have some constraint. Right. And I think having some constraint is what helps you. Yeah. Finish the thing or be able to move on from it, or be able to even figure out what satisfies your expectations.

Divya: Yeah. I think that a lot of times when we are making things, it's very easy to get stuck in the, oh, but I could make it better. Oh, my God. But what if it's not good enough? And we don't have a crisp idea of what's not good enough? And so our brain fills in the gap, which means that any flaw that you find with it, it can be along any axis. It would be considered a flaw, which means that it's no longer good enough. But if you have a predefined, this is what I'm trying to do with this particular thing, then, okay, that is what is quote unquote trying to happen.

Kahran: I think it's kind of a question, actually, where you're like, do I have the right frame of reference for the thing I'm trying to create? And then if I'm trying to win at it, right, then maybe, what am I trying to win on? So am I trying to win on quality? Am I trying to win on maybe consistency or maybe price because I don't think you can win on everything at once or even ever, maybe.

Divya: I think there is also this distinction, at least in my mind, of if you don't draw the right box for yourself before you are starting or you don't consistently update your box, it's very difficult to set up the right expectations for your end user, customer, reader, viewer, player, whatever you want to call that person. Like, you know how authors are, especially new authors are. like, the first line of my book needs to be perfect. And it's like, no, it just needs to set up the right context for the person who's reading the book. The job of the first line is to make you read the first page, and the job of the first page is to make you read the first chapter. And the job of the first chapter is to make you read the rest of the book.

Kahran: Yeah, I think I was thinking about it in a slightly different way, but I actually don't think it is that different. I was thinking about that if you don't draw the box yourself, someone's going to draw it for you. Like either circumstances or other people.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: And I think that is kind of what happens. Right. I don't know if you've ever read any of, I believe his name is Dan Brown, who wrote the Da Vinci code. And like, these very high paced thriller books.

Divya: I haven't.

Kahran: So his chapters are incredibly short and they would always end on cliffhangers. It was like, like it was reading. It was like watching a crazy serial. Right. Like every ten minutes, depending on your reading speed, there'd be something insane happening and then you had to start next chapter. Right. And so. And he wasn't trying to do anything else. Right. He wasn't. I mean, sure, he was creating these, like, vivid scenes, but he wasn't doing it with an outspoken poeticness or, you know, drawing allusions to works of before, really. Like, he was doing it in a kind of clear sense of, this is what I'm trying to do. And people can understand that and judge it on those merits instead of judging it on a set of merits that maybe don't make sense for that circumstance. No one thinks it's a sonnet when it's very clear that it's, you know, the beginning of the chapter of a, cliffhanger book.

Divya: Yeah. It's also very interesting that, like, sometimes clarifying these things helps me also, like, keep my own expectations in check. Like a, very easy example is like when Charu and I first started making games. We would be, quote unquote, inspired by all of the amazing games that we have played. And those are so different from each other. And so we would be like, oh, but it needs to feel like this also.

How do you do that when you're doing something new? Right

And that also. And those are two polar opposite games. Like, one of them is totally relaxed, and another one is like a fast paced game where you're moving a lot. How are you going to do that? And as we, like, you know, made more and more games, it became easier for us to sort of draw the box more crisply, not smaller, but just crisper. And, like, have very clear, this is not what we are trying to do, and this is what we are trying to do.

Kahran: How do you do that when you're doing something new? Right? Like, whether you're kind of creating a new kind of game or, you know, I think I've talked about how I was at this poetry workshop a couple of weeks ago, and there are all these people who are doing poetry with either, like, movies or with sideshows of photos, but doing this kind of more multimedia experience, whereas a visual as well as an auditory component, as well as in some cases, you could read the words as well. or, like, you know, maybe you're trying to create a new kind of business, right? You're trying to take something online that hasn't been done as a direct to consumer business before. Like, right? But you're trying to, like, draw a new. How do you just think about that? That drawing a new kind of box?

Divya: So if you can't limit the form or the content, you can limit how much you're going to put into it. So you could limit the time in which you're going to make it, right? Like, that's why some of these things are very, like, it's good to get your feet wet using hackathon or, like, you know, two day kind of situations. Like that can be one way of doing it. Like, I think Charu participated in two game jams before Charu and I made those games together, which were, again, time bound. We were like, okay, one month per game. That's how long we're gonna spend on it. so there is, like, one component, is that just having some amount of time boundness? So, like, I've done this in art, when you can work with multimedia, like, this is a reverse problem. When you can work with multiple types of, you know, mediataindeh, then how do you draw the boundary in a neat way for yourself? And so sometimes you can just handicap yourself so sometimes, for example, I would just force myself to draw in black and white with just bold lines. I am, like, quite good with color. I work well, like, even thinking directly in color. So, like, forcing myself to not use color is another way of just drawing the box and, like, setting different expectations from myself.

Kahran: that's really interesting. When they teach you photo editing, like, in a structured way, at least the way I learned it, you always learn to edit in black and white, right. So even if it's a color photo, look at it in black and white. Like, change it to black and white and first get it looking correct in black and white, and then worry about the color.

Divya: Yeah. I think this is like, a very visual media generally, like the traditional art, because it is from that Renesa, ah, sort of culture. They try to do more value based stuff first. And color is secondary because paint and pigment, I guess, like, was not as common. But I think, like, just intuitively, colors have always made more sense to me. So for me, it was even more counterintuitive to, like, not use color because I was cutting off a, thing that was. That I felt like I was good at,

Kahran: Oh, interesting. And do you feel like doing that is kind of helpful in trying to define these kind of like, amorphous things that you might be working on?

Divya: Yeah, basically, you know, that thing. Oh, you need to learn how to draw outside the box. For that, you first need a very clear box that you can draw outside of. So just drawing the box for yourself in whatever way makes sense and just sticking to that is at least like, I have found in my creative process to be quite helpful.

Kahran: That's so, interesting.

People's idea of what is okay to spend on something changes based on subscription

I was thinking of a corollary, actually, to the kind of question I posed a minute ago, which is, I think people do that, at least in my, observation with purchases which they're unfamiliar with. If you remember, there was a long time where people would not buy apps and would not buy in app purchases, even when they would be so cheap. It'd be like rs100 or even less or ninety nine cents. And it was just like they had drawn this line where it was like, oh, I can't, that's too expensive for this thing because I've drawn this box saying my engagement with this thing, does not include online purchases. And then I feel like as things progress people, that changes in people's heads right now, people might be willing to, like, I don't know, spend hundreds of dollars online, right? If they know that it's going to get to a tangible good, but maybe have a different set of criteria if it's going to be like a digital good. Yeah, that's interesting.

Divya: Or something like, you know, how much what you're going to be okay with for subscription? Like recently there has been a, ah, shift, especially post Covid. I would imagine that like people have more and more things have started shifting to subscription and people have been slowly getting more and more okay with subscription things. And it's just interesting, at least like, I find it very interesting how people's idea of what is okay to spend on something changes based on do they have to pay it monthly versus do they have to pay it annually versus do they have to pay it one time?

Kahran: I feel like people's ability to sum costs over the lifetime of that purchase is very poor. Right. Like if you give them a low monthly cost, they're not really going to be like, oh, I'm going to end up paying this for two years.

Divya: Yeah. I think that was one of the ways in which iPhone became initially successful. Right.

Kahran: Well, in the US at least, that was an era where the phone carriers would largely pay for the phone, but they kept you in contract, and then there was these very steep, cancellation contract fees, you know, between two to like $400. So it basically was the cost of the phone. If you tried to get out before your two years was up, and then there was this whole thing where if you lost your phone or broke your phone, then you would have to sign another contract or you would have to pay some sort of replacement fee. so I think it was t Mobile when they first relaunched themselves that they did away with the annual contracts and said you can just bring your phone. And around that point also phone prices started to drop and now there's not really as much carrier subsidies on the phones as much. They're starting to come back a little bit because the phone prices have gone so high. Now. when you think about it as a designer though, is there a way to do a similar thing where you're helping someone draw a box that puts them in the right frame of mind for the action that you want them to do? Is there an equivalent of drawing with the black marker? or is that even how you think about it?

Divya: I honestly think about it more how writers think about getting somebody into the magic circle.

Kahran: Okay, one word to one sentence to.

Divya: One, more like, you know, am I promising the right thing? And will this person understand? So if you go and buy a romance book, okay, like, it's a very popular genre, in self publishing, it sells a lot on Amazon. And people who read romance, like, read it very fast, consume it in volume, and, I. It's very interesting. Like, if you look at the covers, they all, quote, unquote, look the same. And you can say, that lacks creativity. But no, it's the first filter. Like, I don't have to think, what am I getting? Because this is not a, like, high value purchase for the customer. This is a. I'm gonna have a high volume purchase here. I'm gonna read a lot of romance.

Kahran: You're dropping into their existing frame of reference.

Divya: Yeah. So, like, that is generally how I would think about, where is this person coming from? What are the things that they already know? And can I latch on there? And then can I promise them the right things as they are entering the circle so that, like, you know, they aren't randomly taken out of it?

Kahran: While you were talking, I was reminded of this, urban myth, I think, about JK Rowling, that when she first went to the publishers, they were like, don't be Joanna. you should go by your initials. And I was thinking about it, and there's so many science fiction and fantasy writers who go by their initials, right? Starting from J. R. R. Tolkien. Like, going forward, there's one named re Salvatore. but there's all these. I could immediately came to mind as I was thinking about it. They had the first initial, at least, so it fell into an existing trope that those kinds of users or customers or whatever, right, purchasers would understand. What I'm thinking about is, like, how do you do it in more difficult settings, right? When it's not as clear you're trying to create a new behavior, what do you do?

Divya: Recently, I heard this statement somewhere, and, like, it really resonated with me. The quality of your answers depends on the quality of your questions. A lot of times when businesses struggle to find answers, it's because they're repeatedly asking the same question, which is not a good question. Why are customers leaving our product? Is probably not a very insightful question. It doesn't make you think about things in a unique way. How do I get my customer to subscribe to my product? Again, not very high quality question. It's a reductive one. Sure, you want the answer of that question, but you actually want a particular outcome. And what you're asking is, why is the thing that I want not happening? And that's not a particularly insightful way of looking at the problem.

One of the industries that I have an interest in is fine dining

Kahran: One m of the industries that I have an interest in, and I've tried to create an interest with you as well, is in just fine dining. And as I think about that industry and what kind of services we could try and take to them, I, feel like they have this challenge of being present in their customers mind when they're not there, because for the type of customer who can come to those restaurants, they have a selection they could be choosing from. And so they're not going to be going all the time, but every time they are going to be going, you know, there's one of ten choices, 30 choices, 50 choices. So they have a certain conception, or maybe even just talking as us, right? Like, how would we think about going and creating an offering that we could go and take for them? Like, today, I feel like there's this box which has been drawn, which is like, your dining experience is while you're in the dining room. And I think we've been redrawing that box culturally a little bit more as we're like, oh, pickup is more of a thing. And there's this, you know, the food may come from somewhere, but the experience may be designed by someone else. I feel like fine dining has been really slow to that notion because there's this ownership, there's this walled garden from the moment you walk in. I think there's a way to redraw that box. I'm not sure if you really want to redraw it to allow accessibility for more customers, because I'm not sure if that's what they're trying to do. I think there's actually a relatively limited customer pool, but you're competing for mind share against these other restaurants.

As a fine dining restaurant, what does predictability mean

Divya: So that might also be the first question to ask. What are, like as a fine dining restaurant, especially if you are somebody who gets booked out, I don't know, ten days in advance or something like that. What does that mean? Right. Like, maybe you are looking at, oh, Monday afternoons are really not full for us, and that's where we want to, like, you know, increase people coming in. Or maybe you are like, no, we want to change, you know, that booking number from ten days to 20 days, or something along those lines. Like, I'm unsure what does quote unquote more would mean?

Kahran: Oh, interesting. So your kind of first thought would be, how do we draw this to be a, defined area when we have so much ambiguity almost? Right. So how do we say, what particular part of the problem are we trying to affect?

Divya: Or even, like, what is the problem? Like, we can improve something, but in what direction? Like, what does it mean for the like for the restaurant, in this case, for things to get better, do they want more people coming in? Do they want hundred percent occupancy at all times? Do they want higher waiting time? Do they want to open another branch? Like, what does improvement mean in this case?

Kahran: Okay, so I guess I could give a little context that's still generic, but I think would answer at least some part of this. So, for most of these kinds of restaurants is that they have a set, right. One or two reservation times generally, and they'll have a set menu for them. So you have generally a sense of what people are going to be ordering, and that, ah, menu will change. Right. And so whenever, you know, you're ordering or getting food things from your supplier, you're hoping that you're going to be using them within a window, and then you're trying, as the restaurant, to use them in a window. So predictability is a huge part of it. You need to be able to predict how many people are going to be there because you have to get the food appropriately. But then there's also this thing where you would like to be predictable, but at, a great level for sustaining the restaurant and being able to be profitable and pay people appropriately. Because there's so much fixed cost associated with each meal, that oftentimes a variable cost can be, if not minimal. It's not nearly as high of a component to the overall expense as the fixed cost is.

Divya: Okay. So, like, oftentimes when I go to, like, south indian restaurants, I find their efficiency very admirable. Like, if you go to something like Nagarjuna, where they serve you like, plate meals, I know that their wastage is minimal. Like they have same thing. Like they have a set menu, but they are giving you like, some ten items, which are really amazing. People can come in very quickly, eat and leave. And I know that that's not the fine dining experience, but they have also operationalized things to a certain extent. Now, if we go and like, let's say we suggest some solution to a place like Nagarjuna or MTR, and our solution involves people spending more time at the restaurant, they might not feel happy about it, regardless of what else that might bring in. Right? I guess, like, my question right now is, I don't even know what they would be optimizing for. Like, these fine dining restaurants. Like, what is their vector pointing towards?

Kahran: Well, there's, what I was trying to say is, it's not like a normal restaurant where you're always having more capacity. Right. You have maybe capacity for like, I don't know, 60 seats per night, and 30 of them are at 530, and 30 of them are at 830. And so you want to, be running as close to 100% of those 60 seats at any time, but you also want predictability, so you don't want spikes. You're going to have enough food to serve 60 people any night.

Divya: Okay. And you want to serve 60 people.

Kahran: And you want to serve 60 people. If you don't serve those 60 people, right, you'll find some use for the food. But your plan is you're going to be prepared to serve all those seats every night, I guess. Here's the. To stay with your Nagajana example for a second. I think what's really interesting is that you have a bunch of pre experiences, so you know what to expect, right? Like, you know that in a south indian restaurant, they tend to be very efficient. They tend to serve one of these ten items. So you're going to go in with this expectation of, like, I'm going to eat something and I'm going to be out of there in ten minutes.

Divya: Huh?

Kahran: And I don't know if that is such an important part of, like, as I'm just listening to you talk right now, this experience is not even to think about. This experience is not as accessible to you because you don't have an expectation of it.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Right? And so I wonder how true that is for other, like, maybe the issue is that you need to be able to create more pre experiences so people can understand what is this thing like, right? It's not that people don't go and spend $150 on their meal, but there's a difference between spending $150 at, a fine dining restaurant and spending $150 at, you know, a formal sit down restaurant. Right.

Divya: What's the difference in the two?

Kahran: Oh, fine dining has all these characteristics, like I was saying, right? Like, it'll often be fixed courses. It'll be served in a certain way. Like, if you've ever seen, there's a lot of movies that kind of making fun of these notions of fine dining. Like, I think there is that one, the menu, right? Where every, every menu, item was served, it was explained where did these things come from? And a lot of that is. That is the fine dining experience. Interestingly, actually, during the pandemic, there's, like, one fine dining restaurant in Seattle called Canalists, and they did this whole interesting thing where they were like, since we have to be closed anyway, we're gonna do other things. So, like, at one point, they made their parking lot into a movie theater. And they like, we're selling hot dogs and like, popcorn. It was like a drive up movie theater. they made like, I think, a hamburger stand in part of their parking lot also where it was just like, oh, they were giving exposure to a bunch of people who had never come to a fine dining restaurant. Never would come to a fine dining restaurant. But you're seeing what is that kind of, of experience, like, so, no, it was kind of a very interesting way of both doing something useful and engaging with people.

What does the customer get out of it beyond the food, right

Divya: Okay. So now I would maybe think about like, what does the customer get out of it? So of course there is the food, but, like, they are definitely getting something else out of it also, right?

Kahran: Correct. If you remember where we started from, my contention was that, sure, sometimes when you build something, there is a set of customers who are going to appreciate past the 60%, right. And they're going to appreciate that you went the point of getting this thing to 80 or 90% completion. so I think there's like a certain delight in those kinds of experiences. Right. At least for me.

Divya: By the way, can I just clarify one point? I don't think that I meant that 60, percent is a universal thing. For each experience, for whatever you create, for whatever you are making, there would be a different line that needs to be drawn. But beyond a certain point, the customer is not the person who's expecting improvement. It's you as the creator and the tastemaker who is trying to create those improvements. Quote unquote, improvements.

Kahran: Oh, yeah. Okay. That I would see. Yeah.

Divya: And nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that, like, it's good to have it clear in your mind that that's what's happening now.

Kahran: yeah. That's interesting because I do think that the restaurants that I have kept going back to and, are continuing to be special are the ones who have people running them like that, who are kind of like these tastemakers who are continuing to push forward and say, yeah, we've done something great, but what else could we do? and whereas there's some other ones I really love, but I've only been once or twice because it's just kind of stagnant. So I think for me, when I speak from my experience as a diner and why I go to these kinds of, restaurants is because it's an experience, right. It's like going to, I don't know, like in India. It's like going to bukhara in Delhi, right. Where it's like it's just a whole experience. Someone has thought about what it's going to feel like walking in there. What is your menu going to feel like? And, you know, what will your napkin be, and how will the food be served, and how will the chef talk to you about the food? And part of it is that it's always the same, but the format is always the same, and therefore, you're allowed to find more delight in the actual content.

Divya: Okay, so if I were to sort of, like, you know, expand that there are certain components of that experience which go. Which transcend the food, right. I would say that, like, for everything, m like, the experience transcends the food. Like, every time you eat, it's not just about the taste of what you're eating. There would be, like, many other factors. Some of them would contribute. Sometimes you would be like, okay, I'm, getting something for rs10. What else did I expect? It has to be whatever subbar.

Kahran: In certain ways, I would just conjecture that's your expectations going in, but go on.

Divya: yeah, I would basically think about, what is white space in case of fine dining, then if they were to improve it, what else would be white space that nothing is filling right now or that the customer is filling with their own preconceived notions that they could design around? And, like, that could, I guess, like, result in a more fuller experience. I don't know if that would actually result in a more, predictable experience for the restaurant, but it can result in a more fuller experience for the person who's coming in. And I guess, like, if the conjecture is that a better experience for a customer who's coming to find dining because they are expecting a more full experience and a multi dimensional experience, they would be more likely to come back, then that hypothesis works.

What expectations do you create before the person comes? What happens after they leave

Kahran: you know, I had a really interesting thought while you were talking just there. one of my conjectures is that people need to have a leave behind. Right? Give people something to take home. So you just occasion the memory of that experience. And most restaurants have become good at this now, right. They'll give you a menu right before you leave. Leave. But what I was just thinking about is, I feel like the ones have given me a food item I have more remembered, especially if it was, like, in a box or something, and thought about going back, than the ones that have kind of pushed you to sell the cookbook. The places that I bought the cookbook from, I've never gone back almost completely. And I think it's kind of because now you feel like, oh, I could make it.

Divya: You know, they have cannibalized their own thing.

Kahran: Exactly. That's just so interesting. So, yeah, I think it is kind of an interesting question, right? What expectations do you create before the person comes? But then also what happens after they leave? And if you leave them with this feeling of being like, oh, I could redo this, I just need to sit down and do it. And then because you kind of reduce the enjoyment of the whole thing. Right. You're like, oh, I really should use that cookbook for something.

Divya: I wonder if that might be different for somebody who is just a connoisseur and not somebody who cooks.

Kahran: And then you buy it as like, almost like a memento, like a coffee.

Divya: Book sort of thing or something like this. Sounds interesting. I'm gonna try this next time, or maybe next time when I go there, I hope they have this thing on menu.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Because, like, that's also important, right? Most of the times, the same intervention, let's call it intervention, the same intervention will affect different people differently, especially when it is experiential in nature. And then I think that is where also drawing the box of who am I trying to attract with whatever I'm making is. Becomes so important. So, for example, there was this product that I had worked with, which was a, collaborative poetry writing product. This was like 2017. Been a few years. It was an interesting product. It was really lovely. You write a line of haiku, somebody else writes, and then a third person writes, and it's like, you know, this really pretty little thing that three people have wrote together, and people wrote some, like, really interesting things. But an interesting and partially unwanted side effect of it was that there were a lot of single men who would come on the product, and the moment they saw that, oh, it's a girl who is writing the lines before me, they would write something obscene, or they would write something suggestive, or they would, like, take the line in a particular direction, or they would go to the profile of the person who was their co author, and they would like, you know, pester them. I wouldn't say harass them. Like, there were very few people who harassed other people, but there were people who pestered these, like, you know, other users. And the team was a little slow in responding because I think the team was a little slow in understanding the gravity of how these kind of things can sort of cascade.

Kahran: Let's go.

Divya: Yeah, yeah. And, it was not a pretty sight. And ultimately, what ended up happening was like, that some people needed to be banned very quickly, the tech team needed to, like, you know, ban certain words because basically some people were showing predatory behavior towards underage kids. And, like, if anybody has run online communities, they would think about this as the first thing you need to guard against bad actors because they would come in and they would, like, spoil the experience and they have a certain set of expectations in their mind. And if you're not drawing a box, because this product actually, they realized that, oh, if we advertise to these single men, they come on our product really easily, but they weren't coming on the product. They were coming on the product to find women who would be writing these poems. And that was not a, like, it wasn't understood that this is what's happening. And so, like, chasing growth actually resulted in, like, you know, drawing the box a little poorly, which resulted in poor experience for the people who are already committed to the product. Not an, like, you know, lovely experience for anybody involved, honestly. but, like, that's also really important. Like, if you take somebody who, like, for example, I don't think I have particularly enjoyed any of the fine dining things that I've gone to, and now I've gone to quite a few and I just find them a little bit, like, I want my food a little bit more in volume and a little less talking around it. So, I don't know, like, it would be like, if somebody confused me to check out their, like, you know, fine dining experience, it would be detrimental for them and for me because I would be a one star reviewer and they could have very easily, like, you know, not counted me in their box.

Kahran: So, but this is actually a really good example of kind of where I feel like there's an issue, right? Because let's say this person has, reinvented the fine dining experience. And like, let's imagine that you're, like, really into, I don't know, say, korean food, and they have managed to take these kind of like, I don't know what would be more interesting to you. So maybe like, either, like, korean peasant food and, like, elevate it, probably not so taken, like, maybe these, like, korean, like, flavors and done them in an indian context in like, a really interesting way. Right. but, you know, for whatever reason, it's, like, it's being billed as fine dining, maybe because it's like a pop up and they only can make, like, you know, five things. So they've, like, done this. Now, the issue is, is that you're going to have a frame of reference where you're like, oh, I've been to these fine dining experiences. I know this isn't something that's right for me.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: But now he knows, let's say that this, you know, entrepreneur has this. This belief, because you've been to Korea and, like, you actually really understand this intersection between korean and indian, that there's. That this is really. You're the exactly right target for this experience. And it's not really. The emphasis is not so much on the fine dining. It's more about this, like, Korean Indian, you know, experience. I don't know. And what I'm wondering is, like, when you suspect that your audience has a pre pre experience or, you know, something that is conditioning, what they're realizing, right. What they're even understanding from you, what do you do about that? Like, how do you create something that can, like, help put someone in the right mindset before they have your experience? Especially when they might be coming from the other extreme. They're starting at minus ten for whatever reason.

Divya: Wouldn't it matter, like, why they are at minus ten? So, like, if my problem was that, like, you know, I don't like european cuisine as much.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: and that's why I don't enjoy fine dining. But if the cuisine had indian flavors or if it had asian flavors, I would be okay with it, then sure, something like this would work. But if my problem is the way fine dining is, that would be completely different. Right? Like, it could be something else. Like, maybe I don't like a quiet restaurant. Maybe I like noisy restaurants. And fine dining inherently is quiet place. Maybe I don't like to sit with my food for 2 hours. Maybe I just want to, like, you know, chomp down everything and then, like, talk a lot of, like, it depends why, like, where my hiccup is coming from, right?

You could reinvent any of these things depending on where that hiccup is

Kahran: Yeah. And I think the thing I'm trying to push on is that you could reinvent any of these things depending on where that hiccup is, I guess. Right. It could be, like, fast fine dining, right. Or there could be, like, fine dining in loud restaurants. Or as an entrepreneur, you could be reinventing that experience in whatever way. you could be trying to get people who hate clothing shopping to buy clothing online or something by reinventing some part of that experience. So that's what I'm wondering, kind of when you're in that balance of trying to say, I want an audience, but the audience might not like me right now, but I might be able to reincense some part of it. So when they think about me in a different way. Dig yourself out of this thing.

Divya: This is so interesting. so I would say there are two parts to it. One is understanding, like, what part of audience would have a negative connotation with, like, whatever you are trying to sell and why you are trying to win them. Like, one being clear about why you are trying to win that people, rather than being like, oh, there are all of these people who already like this thing. Right? Like, why not market, for example, if somebody is building a fine dining experience, why not market it to you? Who would be way more open to it versus me? Right. and then, like, really marketing it with that messaging in mind. Like, so when you said fast fine dining, I was like, I think I could try a fast, fine timing thing. Like, if I don't have to spend one and a half hours just, like, waiting for one pint of my food, I think I would be okay with that.

Kahran: Interesting.

Divya: and just like, figuring out that there would be a certain segment that would be resistant to it because of x reason and another because of y reason and another because of z reason and which reason are we changing or, like, you know, which reason are we solving? So, of course, there would be certain part of the audience which would be. Which would find your ideas palatable and another which wouldn't. And, like, which part of the. These people don't find my ideas palatable, but I have something that can bring them around the corner and then, like, actually marketing it to them. That's how I would think about solving it.

Kahran: No, I quite like that. I was just thinking about it a little bit. I know I'm ever present using my sister's company as an example, but I was just thinking about how for her, over the last five years, the world really changed because people went from not knowing about rental to having likely tried one of the rental companies.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: And so it just, it means you're thinking about that audience and talking to that audience differently now. Instead of it being like, oh, I've never tried something like this, and helping them see why they could try something like this, it's like, oh, they are like, this didn't work out for me for this reason.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: So now you have to show that actually that reason is the reason why it could work out for you now or something. Right. I think it's interesting as the, as a market will mature, I think that would generally happen. You go from, like, educating people on why they need the thing to educating people on why you're the best solution for the problem.

Divya: Yeah.

You have to think about your customer as consistently on a journey

This is also interesting because, like, I don't think we have discussed this on podcast, but we have personally talked about it quite a bit as like, how you have to think about your customer as like, consistently on a journey and at different spots on the journey, and their experience is constantly evolving. And as a product maker, you have to think about their experience like that the person who is coming to you for the first time is not the same person who's coming to you for the 10th time. And this is, slightly like that, except that it is more on the market trends level.

Kahran: Yeah, I guess in this context, I would think about it as being someone who's reactivating with you. Maybe something like Netflix or Disney, where people might activate for a month and then deactivate. And then reactivate again and then deactivate. Well, if you're trying to convert that person to being a long term subscription, you're going to have to think about it differently if they're on their fifth time of reactivation with you than if this is the first time they deactivate and reactivated with you.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Because now they've had a bunch of pre experiences that really educate their experience. Interesting. In some ways, almost trying to understand what someone's pre experiences are, or at least like, the preconceptions they're bringing to that moment, is really helpful for being able to understand what's going to convert them or get them to do whatever behavior trying to get them to do.

Divya: And also like, having a richer and richer model of where all people's pre experiences could slot in, will help you when you are constructing the experience, which it'll also help you slot it. Maybe you can say, better communication, or maybe you can say, like, better marketing, like, whichever way you want to phrase it, but basically like, having more a vibrant understanding of, oh, these are the reasons why people like this product don't like this product, or have hesitations, or have, like, you know, preconceived expectations. like, it can actually change how you do your communication.

Kahran: Yeah. You actually were reminding me of this project that you and I did last year, with this. This large nonprofit here in the US, where we found that people often started donating and started having a connection because of someone else. Right. They would have someone that had invited them maybe to a charity gala, or to a dinner, or to an event at their house. And because of that, they might write, somewhat of a check. And then as they learned often about, like, efficacy, or learned about the problem, or learned about the needs, they would maybe write a larger check. But there was kind of a key moment where people would have an emotional experience, which would happen in different ways for a lot of people. They would travel to India, see the work on the ground, and then have this kind of, like, emotional moment. And that would kind of be a key in really building a deep relationship. That's interesting if you kind of like, and I think it took us a long time to be able to realize what all these different moments were, were emotional triggers in different ways. So I think once you start to see some of them, then those patterns start to emerge, and you're like, oh, the key thing I need to create here is some type of emotional moment, whether it's, you know, whether it's by seeing kids in India or by seeing, you know, the impact of my money in a, real person, or, you know, I don't know, understanding the data deeply. Well, maybe data is hard to be emotional about, but that's interesting. Yeah, I think it's a, probably many to many relationship, right? Like, I think that there's many different customer journey paths, but I suspect it's a finite set of things people need to accomplish for any given onboarding onto a certain service or product. Right. There may be, like, nine things, or, you know, maybe 15 things. I suspect it's somewhere in a smaller number where you need to have an emotional connectival, need to believe in the problem. You need to believe the problem is right for you. I don't know, maybe a couple of more. And then if you complete all of those boxes, then you can conclude this is the right service for me and become a deeper customer. Loyal customer.

Divya: Yeah. That seems like a very good framework that we could probably process.

Kahran: Yeah, I think it'll be interesting for us to think about how do we apply it to our customers and our. I was even thinking about it a little bit as we were talking. but how we think about what we're doing today, almost, is we're at the early part, we're educating people on the need for this type of solution at the same time as then we're trying to sell them that we're the right people for the solution. But I think we're probably a little bit in early days, or I'm totally wrong. And, you know, actually what we need to be doing is thinking about why people have not bought something like this before or that they have bought something like this before. And, you know, we need to think about why it didn't work for. And then m. But, yes, good things good problems for us to consider, as we go forward.

Divya: Yeah. Yes. This is a good conversation.

Kahran: Very good conversation. Most enjoyable.

Divya: Yes.

Kahran: Bye bye.

Divya: Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gooms.

Kahran: If you found this topic to be interesting or have other topics you wish we would explore on a future episode, please reach out to us at, our website, joyous studio.