Thinking on Courage vs Daring

Today, we talked about the differences between courage and daring

Divya: Hi, I'm Divya.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Kahran.

Divya: Welcome to the 18th episode of thinking Unthinking. Today, we talked about the differences between courage and daring, which, from the outset, seemed like very similar concepts to us. As we unraveled them and explored more and more about examples from our own lives and about how we relate to both of those concepts. We came across something really interesting, and we also discussed a bunch of dungeons and dragons in between. We hope you enjoyed.

When you think about courage versus daring, there's a lot of underlying similarities

Kahran: So, when you. When you think about courage versus daring, I think that there. Obviously, there's a lot of underlying similarities. I think there's something interesting about how you're always applauded for being courageous, but you're not always applauded for being daring. And if I think about which aspect I might want to build into the company. Right. I would want people to be courageous. I don't know how much I want them to be daring or. I don't even think we are that daring, necessarily. A little bit. I think we're very courageous at times, and I'm glad that we are. So I think that there's obviously some distinction if one of them feels like the kind of thing we want to build into the company. And I'm not sure if you necessarily agree with me, but, you know. And the other doesn't. and I think also, the other aspect is very true, which is one of them. It's always applauded. Almost always applauded socially.

Divya: M I wonder. Okay, so it could be two things. One could be that there is a certain amount of foolhardiness that is required to be daring. Like the thing that I called self delusion previously, but, like, you just need a little bit of. I don't care about the outcome. And you generally, you give courage awards to the victors, not to the losers.

Kahran: M. That's interesting, because I was just even thinking, if you think about, like, mitts, and I think myths are really interesting because they kind of tell values. Right. People are always courageous. The people who are or winners are always courageous. The people who are daring sometimes are like, the sly rogues who, like, you know, they. Maybe they're, like, neutral, chaotic.

Divya: Yeah. It's almost like this, you know, with courage, there is, like, he was brave enough to do Xyz, and there is, like, he dared to do this, which doesn't always evoke a positive reaction. Okay, maybe the results are good this time. Courage seems aspirational, but daring doesn't seem as aspirational.

Kahran: I think you just helped me. Help me see it. Right. I think it's in exactly what you did, which was, you went to the etymology of daring, which is from dare. And I think that's what it is. Right. It's what you're. When you're doing something that's socially not what you're supposed to do, that's daring. when you're doing something that is hard for you yourself to do, then that's courageous. Hard or scary, whatever makes it hard.

Divya: like, there's a personal cost to courage, and there's a societal cost to daring, which is. That is where the idea of, oh, this person is a little. Even the words I was using previously, foolhardy. Like, yeah, this person doesn't care about the social consequences of their actions. They don't care about how people are gonna see them for the lack of a better term. Like, when you are doing a courageous act, like, you know, people in the military are generally doing courageous acts. They know how people are gonna see them. They know there is going to be a lot of applause for it, whether they are like, it's not success or failure, but it is much more on the side of, what you just said. How, like, where is the cost coming from?

Kahran: I don't know if you know that there's this research about, like, the. How if someone sees someone needing help, but it's a large group of people, people are less likely to help. So the more people who observe, like, the person in need, the less likely it is that someone will call a paramedics or. Right. Because everyone will just assume it's someone else's problem, and it'll become like. Like, you know, almost like people like us do things like this, and then it's like, oh, I'm like, all these people who are passerbys, we don't stop because nobody is stopping.

Divya: So there is, an interesting research on that. you know.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: like, initially, what got people interested in the passerby effect was this. What was her name? Kitty su or some, like, Katie sue. Some name like that of this woman who got, murdered in New York or some major us city. I'm sorry. I'm, like, really forgetting the details. but, like. And none of the neighbors tried to help or anything like that. But the interesting thing is that was not the case at all. Like, people came and people helped her, and, like, you know, one of the neighbors who was holding her as she died was holding her hand and was like, oh, you're gonna be okay. And, like, the moment you think about that part of the story, suddenly it makes you question, is the passive effect real, that, like, people really don't care about others? And I think, there is some research into, it's more of a freeze response because of the complication. Am I supposed to do something, or am I not? Is there somebody who's more capable than me in this situation of taking care of this thing? So it's coming less from apathy and more from insecurity. I'm, like, fully interesting.

In airplanes they don't ask generic question of can somebody help this person

Kahran: Like, well, I was gonna take it back to what we were talking about. Right. Which is, like, I feel like there's some element of daring needed, because, like, the social. The social convention at that moment is to not do something. But I think what you're saying is it's not a social convention. It's everyone basically is feeling their own ineptitude and feeling like someone else is more capable than me.

Divya: And it's one of those things. They're like, you know how in airplanes they don't ask a generic question of, like, you know, can somebody help this person? They ask specifically who would be like, is there a nurse practitioner? Is there a doctor on this flight? We have a patient.

Kahran: Do they say nurse practitioner?

Divya: Like, is there a nurse or doctor? I don't think that I've ever heard, like, in.

Kahran: Yeah. I've only ever heard them say, is there a doctor on the plane?

Divya: I haven't even heard a few doctors also. But I'm just saying, like, you know, I've only heard it, you know, in american flights. Whatever shows and whatever. Whatever. But, like, they don't really say generically. Right. That, oh, can anybody help? But it's more. Much more specific.

Kahran: Well, and because I'm sure it's a spectrum. Right. Some people believe they can always help. Some people believe they can never help, so. Right. Like, you want to find. You want to use, You want. I mean, just for this particular scenario. Right. But you want to signal in the right way that you're getting people on the right level of the expertise and aptitude. Like chart.

Divya: Very true.

Kahran: Or expertise slash confidence chart, I guess. Right. People who are confident in their expertise, but not people who are confident in their expertise.

You said you wouldn't want to build a company where people are daring

Divya: Okay, so I have a question. You said that we wouldn't want to build a company where people are daring. Absolutely.

Kahran: Overly daring.

Divya: Yeah. Before we had the understanding of, like, realization. Yeah.

Kahran: Yeah. I don't know. Now I might have to retract that statement, because now that I've thought about what it means to be daring, I think that is closer to what I want. Like, I think part of what. What prompted me to even see the distinction between those two is because there's something intriguing about these daring fellows.

D and D separates out how your actions relate to social conventions

I also just finished watching a show called Shadow and Bone.

Divya: I believe the name. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's a, book series, right?

Kahran: Yeah, yeah. It's a book series. It just has like very, I don't know, daring characters. Like, it's very into that rogue sort of, archetype. Archetype. Thank you. So, like, lots of like, people who are, chaotic. Good to use my earlier, earlier reference. Right. So they seem. They're kind of self interested, but in the long run, they're trying to do right for the world. And those kinds of characters are always being daring.

Divya: This m is so interesting that you take the D and D example because generally when you're playing dungeons and dragons, that's how the lawful, neutral and chaotic spectrum is divided. Lawful is the person who abides by society's rules. And chaotic is a person who does not care about society's rules. Rules. And like them being good and neutral and bad. That chart is more about where is the intent coming from. So you can be lawful evil and you can be chaotic good. It's very interesting that in case of D and D, they have separated out the, fact that how you relate to social conventions versus what your actions do to other people. Like, the impact of your actions is separated out from the conventions whether you follow them or you don't.

Kahran: Yeah, I think that's really interesting because when you think about the kind of, roles that fall in. So, like, paladins are like these. These paragons of virtue, right. And they're always lawfully good. I think actually there could be evil ones. Right. But they would still be lawfully evil. Right. And they're like knights. Right. And they're always described as courageous. Right. They're not described as daring. Very rarely. And if they were, they would be like. They would be breaking the archetype a little bit deliberately.

Divya: Oh, wow. And on the other hand, rogues are generally described as chaotic and like. So they are described as people who would be daring. It's almost that, difference between samurais and ninjas in popular culture, where, like, samurais are seen as these men of honor and like, courage, while ninjas are these stealthy people who would make daring choices and make things happen, but are not. The. Courage is not the attribute attributed to them.

Kahran: Yeah. And it's interesting you bring up japanese, culture, in that way because I think there it's an interesting example of, like, does it matter the victory, or does it matter how you achieve the victory? Right. So, depending on where you, as a society or as a group of people, are putting the focus, it may be more important how you're doing something versus what you're actually doing. And then that distinction between whether you are doing something in a daring way versus a courageous way can really matter, because one of them may feel aligned, and one of them may not feel aligned.

Do you feel like you fall on a spectrum of courageous and daring

Divya: Do you feel like you fall, like, on that spectrum of courageous and daring, where would you place yourself?

Kahran: I think there's an aspect of where you would place yourself. I also think there's an aspect of where you aspire to be, at least for me. I think I aspire to be more daring than I am. I think I am pretty daring, but I think especially in certain aspects and certain venues. but I aspire to be more daring even. I actually think I'm a little bit less courageous than I am daring, interestingly. And when I start to fall into that distinction is where I start to feel a bit muddled.

Divya: I was gonna ask, which one of them feels aspirational more to you?

Kahran: Oh, being more daring feels more courageous. Correct.

Divya: Do you feel like this is, like a muscle that you could use and get exhausted? So, for example, I wonder if, like, you know, if one has taken a couple of daring decisions, do they feel more tired after that and then they no longer wanna be daring? Or is it one of those things where the more you do it, the easier it becomes and then the more you do it?

Kahran: I think it depends on, where you feel costs and where you feel returns. So if you're someone who feels social costs more, then I think it's like.

Divya: I think that I had generally seen myself as someone who is fairly daring until recently, when I realized, I am m way more afraid than I would like to be. And that was a sad realization. A little bit painful.

Do courageous decisions feel more exhausting to you than daring decisions

Not that we started this topic so that we could talk about this, but, like, it's been on my mind that, does it make you more exhausted because you have taken daring decisions, and then, like, as you continue to follow through your decisions, it just becomes more tiring? Or does it become, oh, I need to care less? Because I honestly feel like both of those things have happened to me, that I feel it easier and I feel it's harder?

Kahran: No. I don't know. I feel like courageous decisions feel much more exhausting to me than daring decisions, because I think, for me, at least, it feels like, there's a certain degree of, like, tedium in being courageous that I find just very exhausting. But in making daring decisions, I feel like there's a degree of, like, excitement. And I guess depending on your environment, there can also be, like, surprising feedback, like, positive feedback. Of course, you know, something that you and I have talked about is like, that you've painted every. Every place that you have stayed. In some ways, that's pretty daring, right?

Divya: Is it?

Kahran: I think so. Like, it's not what you socially do. You don't start painting the walls of a place you don't own, especially with, like, art. I don't know. It's. Again, though, that's why I was stuck into thinking for so long. Because it depends a lot on what is true around you socially. Right? depending on your community, something may feel daring, which would not be daring in a different community.

Divya: Oh, I'm also just like, as you said, that I realized certain things do not register as daring because it's just the natural thing that you do and because you're not aware of, as in, it's a daring action in terms of the fact that socially that's not the norm, but because you're not hyper aware of the norm and the norm is not being enforced, it doesn't feel loaded. But if there is a norm that is continuously trying to be imposed on you, then that feels a lot more exhausting.

Kahran: I think, again, that's a mark of the person. Like, for example, my husband. You could give him an arduous task that he has to complete. Like, for example, he has to go to work every day, and it's this 80 minutes journey, that he takes. And he does it in a way that he feels is faster where he walks. about, I would say between, like, maybe about half a mile between two stops, right? And he does. I think he's done it every day except for one. Now, some days it's really unpleasant. It rains, it snows. It's like, really unpleasant, right? But he doesn't find that. He just. He just keeps doing it, right? Like, he has this kind of, like, I don't know, fortitude. I mean, bravery and all sorts of inclement weather, right? Like, he doesn't. It doesn't bother. Bother him, and it doesn't even feel like, I don't think it drains him to make that choice every day. It's very much, he's made this choice, and this is who he is. Like, he's made this choice. He feels no need to reassess that choice. And whatever he needs to do to do that choice, he will bring bear to muster. I would say that that, to me, there's some degree of courage in that choice.

Divya: Yeah, that's a courageous choice because he's taking a lot of personal cost for making this choice, whether it's on the effort side or it's on the, like, thinking side.

Kahran: Whereas I suspect knowing him the way I do, that having to make a daring choice every day would be much more exhausting.

Kahran: Like, for example, if he was to think about a route every day, right. And try out different routes every day, that would be very exhausting. It's also not what one does, you know?

Divya: So, like, no one tries out necessarily daring either. Right. That just really sounds exhausting.

Kahran: I wouldn't find it exhausting. I find it really entertaining. Like, I would try all the different choices, all the different.

Divya: You're very driven by novelty, so. But that's also very interesting, right? Because it's not like the cost is the only thing that you're thinking about. Like, is the cost on me, or is the cost that I'm doing something that's against society? Of course that's one part. But, like, you could be getting multiple things out of a thing also. And maybe that does not feel as exhausting.

Kahran: No, I don't know. I think that there's a separate thing with daring things where I think, yes, there's a degree of anticipation. It's like, for example, when I wear, like, sometimes I will tend to wear, like, very, just not typical kind of things, right? Like, I have a choker that I like to wear, and I anticipate that someone will often make a comment about it. Right? Similarly, I have this, like, teal jacket that I. That I love to wear. And like, I know that when I'm wearing something like that, that people will often make comic because it's just not typical for what men, particularly indian men, will wear in New York City. M so there's a degree of anticipation, which is kind of, I think, part of making daring choices. But I don't think the novelty has to be there. Like, I think there's enough intrinsic value in making a daring choice. And I think there's things that are, I don't want to say comorbidities, but tend to go with, the kind of daring choice. And I would say anticipate reputation is part of that.

Divya: But here, there's also another factor, right. When you're doing something rebellious, if you're a certain kind of person, there is something rewarding about doing something rebellious automatically?

Kahran: I think daring choices are rebellious.

Divya: And every time somebody points it out, it could be grating, but it could also be reinforcing of the fact that there was something, like, different about what you did. So every time someone comes to you when you're wearing your shiny pants or your choker or your teal jacket, you think, huh? Huh? I know that this is not the thing that indian men would wear in New York City. And, like, so there is a sort of reinforcement of your identity that you're like, yes, I am different. And, like, when somebody comes and points it out to you, it is reinforcing that. I'm not saying it's not daring, but I'm just saying there's another supportive sort of structure there. Like, once you have made the choice that I'm gonna be daring about this thing, it's almost like opposition makes. Feels like support. Does that make sense?

Kahran: It does.

Divya: And maybe support is the wrong word. Maybe what I'm trying to say is, like, opposition feels like confirmation of your choice. Like, yeah, all of these normies are not gonna do this.

Sometimes your daring choices stop being daring and they start being confirmatory

I am different than these normies, and I'm gonna do this.

Kahran: That's interesting. I was also just thinking about how that fits with, there's a group that you belong to in a group you aspire to. and how. How you're signaling or kind of like, switching between your us groups kind of can impact with that. Because when you're rebellious, you're rebellious against a group you're part of or somewhat part of, but at some point, you'll find a group of similarly rebellious people, and then you will not be rebellious with them because you're all rebellious against something else.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: So I'm not sure how, I wonder if there's a point where your daring choices start to stop being as daring and they start to just being.

Divya: Courageous choices, they start being confirmatory. Yes. And that also, like, the thing that I was talking about where, like, I have been feeling this thing that maybe I'm not as, like, daring as I would like to be. It's also partially this thing that you just articulated, that sometimes your daring choices just stop being daring, and that's just the social expectation from you.

Even if we build a company that feels daring, it'll stop feeling daring internally

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Have you seen Glass onion?

Kahran: No. What is that?

Divya: it's a movie. Ed Nortone, Daniel Craig. It's the nice out, the new nice out film.

Kahran: Okay.

Divya: And in that, Ed Norton's character says this thing that, first you break the thing that everybody wants you to break, then you start breaking things that people expect you to break. Then you go on breaking things, and you break things that people are uncomfortable with you breaking because nobody ultimately wants you to break the system. Can you keep doing that? and while it's like, you know, one of those startup founder thingies that people just say because it sounds fun and, like, not necessarily, isn't necessarily as deep as it is shown to be, but there was something about that. Like, that, dialogue just came to my mind when you were talking about at some point, maybe the things that are daring stop being daring, and they just become the courageous thing. Like, ah, you made a difficult choice, but there isn't a social cost associated with the difficulty of the choice.

Kahran: But then I don't know if, like you were saying a few minutes ago, is it necessary that you yourself perceive the choice as daring? Like, and maybe this is kind of a postulation to answer my own question, but when I was saying at the beginning of our conversation that I am not sure about building a company that feels daring, well, at some point, even if we do build a company that feels daring, it'll stop feeling daring to the people in the company.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Because that will be the culture we've created. Right. So I don't know if, but I don't know if it needs to necessarily feel daring all the time. I wonder if it's an, Is it enough if it's feeling daring to the people you care about it feeling daring to. Whether that's your audience, whether that's your constituents.

Divya: That is so interesting. yeah, that is so interesting.

Kahran: I think it's interesting because I think we realize that daring is in. Daring can only be true in relation to someone else's expectations.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Someone is looking at that and saying, it's daring. Similar to being courageous too. Right. Someone is looking at it saying, being courageous. But I think you can look at it and say it was courageous. And it's harder for you to look at it and know, sorry. You can have an action and speculate pretty accurately whether it's going to be perceived as courageous. But I think it's harder for you yourself to have an action or undertake an action and perceive accurately whether or not it's going to be daring.

Divya: Yeah. It's also very interesting because, I started working when I was in third year of college, which is, like, not the norm in India. I also teach it for placements. Definitely not the norm when you go to a top college. And the interesting thing is my brother and sister did exactly that. They were already working. By the time they were in their third year, they had figured out a separate path from whatever their degree was, and they ended up, like, you know, choosing, freelancing life just like I did. And for them, even when I talk to them, it really doesn't feel like a daring choice. It feels courageous because it's different from, like, you know, the easier path go to go to get a job and, like, you know, just make some money. But at the same time, it really doesn't feel to them like it's rebellious because the social structure around us has evolved enough. So, like, when you were saying that, you know, even if you build a company which is daring internally, people will not feel like it's daring because they are just doing the thing. And when I see my siblings, that's what's happening. Like, they are just doing the thing. They are doing what they want to do. And sometimes it's hard, and it might be harder in some ways, but there isn't a, oh, I am rebelling against the system kind of a feeling, while when I did it, I felt like I'm rebelling against the system.

Kahran: I am courageous to help us be.

Divya: Daring, or I'm daring to help us be courageous more like.

Kahran: Well, because I feel like if you think about it from a company level, the company as a whole can be daring, but to the individual people in the company, they will just be courageous every day.

Divya: you're breaking rules as a collective to ensure the safety of the collective, or, like, the integrity of the collective in some way. Safety is maybe not the right word, but the integrity of the collective is not harmed because you are making daring choices outside of the collective.

Kahran: Correct?

Kahran: Cool. That was fun.

Divya: Yeah, that was really quite fun. This might be, like, one of my favorite episodes in a while.

Kahran: I think we should do more of these exploring episodes. I think they're very interesting, where we kind of look at two, concepts that are very similar and look at how they are different.

Divya: I Think that the fact that you and I look at things differently, but analytically lends itself very well to this exploration as well.

Kahran: Yeah, cool.

If you found any of the topics we talked about interesting this week, invite you to get in touch

Divya: Awesome. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes.

Kahran: If you found any of the topics we talked about interesting this week, invite you to get in touch with us. We'd love to invite you on the podcast or just have a conversation about how these topics apply in your business and in the decisions and problems that you're struggling with. You can get in touch with us on our website, joyous studio, or by reaching out to Divya, or me, Karun directly.