Thinking on Caring and Being Invested

This week we talked about how people care about brands, uh, things

Divya: Hi, I'm Dipha.

Kahran: Hi, I'm Karin. And this is the 13th episode of thinking on thinking. this week we set off to talk about how people care about brands, things other people, and ended up spending a lot more time kind, of exploring the notion of why and what leads to people caring about, things. we had some interesting thoughts about identity and how you care about things when they're part of your identity, but ended up really, understanding and unpacking more about why do we even care about this? Right? Like, why are we doing this and why are we on this journey? It was a really interesting conversation. I, hope you enjoy, Like, I feel like I. When I was in high school, I enjoyed ceramics, but also was good at ceramics in a way, more than, like, other kinds of art. And it made me feel, I don't know, I care more about ceramic, but I don't know if that's different than, like, there's a caring for yourself, oh, I want to be better at this thing, or, oh, I want this to be part of my identity. And then there's a different thing where it's like, oh, I care about, seeing you successful.

Divya: Hm.

Kahran: Or, I care about this brand or person.

Divya: I wonder, though, like, there is always that care, is, like, closely associated with identity. Like, if you think about when people talk about being a parent or, you know, being a pet, parenthood, they always talk in terms of themselves or the relational aspect, like a part of their identities attached to this thing, whether it is, oh, I'm a runner, so I care about running, or, I'm a science person, so I can. Like, oftentimes when people are caring about things, they have their identity closely associated with the thing.

Kahran: Well, so I wonder if that part of that is because, like, like, you have an attribute that you're expressing in that way, right. So it's like, oh, I feel I'm a disciplined person. Well, because of that, I run every day. Right. Or, like. Right, like, oh, I am compassionate and warm towards, like, you know, people, or things that I feel, like are dependent. Right. And, like, I have a pet, and that's the way I demonstrate that I am that way to other people and to the world.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: which I think is also really interesting, because then I think it's something that we've talked about before, but where you feel like you have to revert back to the mean. So when you start to. When you add something in your life that is something else, and you feel, I don't know, it's just like, either you have to change your self image, or you have to find a way that it's. That things come back to the mean in a different way.

Divya: Okay, so this is not, entirely the same line of thinking, but, like, I have information that can be added to.

So do you know what is the difference between OCD and OCPD

So do you know what is the difference between OCD and OCPD? I think we've talked about this at some point before, but you might not remember it. so OCD is like, you have intrusive, obsessive thoughts. It can sometimes present as anxiety, but you basically have intrusive thoughts. And you do some behaviors to, like, which makes you think that this, like, whatever is the negative thought, it's not going to happen. So, like, people who wash their hands raw.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: They're not thinking that. Like, the thoughts feel intrusive. The thoughts feel like they're not my thought. Right. OCPD is like, when we call someone a control freak, they have obsessive tendencies as well, except that they don't think that those obsessive tendencies are wrong. They think, of course, everyone should sort their books this way, everyone should sort their travel this way, everyone should do things this way, and, like, that's obsessive compulsive personality disorder. Now, what's entertaining is, like, OCD is ego dystonic and OCPD is ego syntonic, which means that, like, one aligns with your self image and one doesn't align with your self image. And, like, what doesn't align with your self image causes you distress. And what aligns with your self image, you have zero inclination to change it because you're like, this is who I am.

Kahran: In, that show I was telling you about, white lotus, the mom, like, moves all the furniture when she checks in the hotel room. And the children are like, what are you doing? And she's like, no, I'm just making it into a more livable environment for us because there's so many of us here. And she's like, this furniture is just not right. It's not creating a good space for us to interact with each other. anyway, it's just entertaining. also, in turtles all the way down, she really hates her thoughts. Yeah, yeah.

Divya: so it can kind of make sense that, like, sometimes when people have pieces of their identity that they don't think, or rather, sometimes when people have behaviors and they don't align with their identity, it would be very difficult to switch it so it can, on the surface, almost seem like, oh, you wanna care about it. But you don't, like, the new year has just started, and so many people would have made resolutions of, I'm gonna go to the gym, I'm gonna eat better. I'm gonna, like, you know, use my phone less, meditate more. But I'm not sure how many people see themselves as the kind of person who does meditation or the kind of person who works out. Even if they want the results of having worked out, which is, like, a strong body, or the results of having meditated a lot, which is, like, a calmer mind, they probably don't see themselves as the kind of person who does this stuff. I was thinking about it, like, I don't know how true it is for you, but I know that it's true for me that I don't think that I have a crisp idea of what being an owner of a successful company looks like for me.

Kahran: What is it? Why would you be same more?

Divya: Right. So, like, I mean, again, I don't know how true it is for you, but I have been feeling that, like, you know, I was wondering, why am I not making it a priority? Why am I not willing, like, you know, willing, ready. Actively putting more effort. Right? Like, why am I not putting more effort into making joy as successful? And, ah. One of the things that I realized is, I don't think I have a crisp idea of this is what I. Someone who runs a successful company looks like someone being me, in this case.

Kahran: But do you usually feel like you have that before you embark on something, like, when you want to?

Divya: So, Like, in two different ways. So, you know how you have met. You would have definitely met people who were like, oh, I definitely want to write, but they don't want to write. They want to have written.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: They don't see themselves as writers. They aspirationally want to have something written. Right. And then there are people who see themselves as writers, so they're just like, oh, I'll go and I'll make things, and I'll write things. Okay, right. I think that, like, that has been true for me, for creative work. Like, I have just seen myself as a creative person. Being an artist still, like, has a lot of resistance.

Kahran: But, like, what about when you started working out more?

Divya: that was. That was the only example where it didn't. And it did take me a long ass time. It took me, like, more than two, two and a half years, three years to actually feel like I'm the kind of person who works out well.

Kahran: Didn't you? I think it's on a previous podcast episode, in fact. But didn't you also do a similar thing when you started reading philosophy?

Divya: Correct. But, like, none of those things are very time dependent.

Kahran: What do you mean?

Divya: Like, with philosophy, it took me like four years, five years to actually like it. And I was okay with that because there isn't a rider on it. With working out, it's like any amount of workout is fine. Like, it's not as important.

Divya: Right? Like, I know that I'm not gonna become a world class athlete, so for me, the only task was to find the fun in working out.

Kahran: Why is it different than, finding the fun in having a company?

Divya: I don't know. Like, I have not had a long time for this, like, you know, this thought or distillation. the thing is, we are having fun, but, like, I know that there is something different because now I've, like, started actively telling myself, no, I want to be the person who is running a company. I don't care about the success or like, having had a successful company.

Are you just interested in this thing or are you invested in it

Kahran: Okay, so let's say you started to care about something. Do, does that come with anything? Like, does that mean you like to see it successful?

Divya: Or, like, I mean, depends on what degree of care it is, I guess, at least for me. so for example, like, am I just interested in this thing? Is that how much I care about it, or am I invested in this thing? So for example, like, chat GPT, I feel like I'm interested in AI art. I feel like I'm invested in care about both of those things, but like, one of them I'm actually invested in. Like, where does this go? How does this impact culture? Or how does it change the world or affect my life, affect other people around me's life?

Kahran: Those are things that, well, okay, fine, so let me, let me stay with that.

You could be talking about, uh, AI image generation or like,

so those are things that could be, like you could be doing something to, right. You could be talking about, AI image generation or like, like, I don't know.

Divya: Yeah.

Kahran: Learning more about it. Like, are you doing those things?

Kahran: Yeah, for, for AI. Like, are you doing stuff for AI image generation that's different than what you're doing for chat GPT?

Divya: Like, I haven't used chat GPT. I have laughed at other people's usage. As in, like, I found the usage entertaining. I've like, engaged with the content that people have built out of chat CPT. On the other hand, with AI art, I'm having active conversations with people around it, especially with other artists and, especially with people who hold views opposite of mine. So I'm pro AI art.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: And I'm talking to a lot of different people who are anti air and, like, having those debates and having those conversations while also trying to understand. Like, for example, I've watched a bunch of videos around, like, how does the stable diffusion, algorithm work, what models are they using? And stuff like that, which I'm sure that, like, GPT also uses similar models, but, like, I haven't bothered to learn about it actively.

Kahran: But you don't feel like that's, like, you don't have a goal for where you're trying to end up with your. Well, no, I feel like these are, this is, like, this is something that directly impacts, like, you, how people who will do work, like, the work you do in the future will do their.

Divya: Work, or how even I do my work right now. Like, for, the game that charu and I are making right now, we did a shit ton of concept art generation using mid journey, stuff that I could not have generated in, you know, like, I could not have made thumbnails at the speed at which it was able to generate. And we are able to just ask it, oh, but what about these colors? Or what about this kind of style? Or what about this kind of image? Or what about if it had these elements? And I don't have a lot of knowledge about it yet, but I'm learning, and I'm, like, really enjoying that learning process. I'm enjoying the growth process.

Kahran: But when you think about, like, outcomes, that could be, like, it's outcome.

Divya: Oriented in the sense that when you paint, you start building layers, right? Sometimes you might know what the final thing is gonna look like, and sometimes you might not. But if you have a general idea, you first start with the blobs, and then you add in details. And, like, at least with this thing in my brain, I know that I've started painting the picture. I don't know what it's gonna look like at the end, but I started painting the picture.

Kahran: Sometimes when you have particularly good metaphors, I think of that one client we had who was very excited about your metaphor. that's funny. no, where I was going with somewhere slightly different where I was trying to say, like, you know, people who are designers might look and say, okay, you know, I do visual design or I do interaction design, and kind of be willing to say, like, this is the type of designer I am, and. But I feel like what you're saying is, like, oh, you know, you feel like, this is a, kind of thing that you could use in your work or that you could use in your thinking as you. As, you can internalize more and more like, what. What is AI image generation outcomes and do, or even how it works. Right. but what I'm curious about is, like, when you think about being a, company, owner, or, you know, like, running a successful, company, or even keeping the successful part aside, that doesn't feel the same. Sort of, like, adding a tool to your toolkit as,

Divya: Yeah, that's actually an excellent articulation of it. I think that, like, it's a lack of experience slash imagination on my part. Like, that. I don't know what it looks like or what it feels like. at some point earlier this week when I was thinking about this, I realized that while my brain recognizes that there is difference in working with clients and having a company and working with clients, I don't know what the difference is. Well, like, and this is, this I'm articulating is a known unknown, but there are a lot of unknown unknowns that I'm just, like. I have a sense that there are a lot of unknown unknowns, but I haven't, like, interacted with this thing enough. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

Kahran: it just sounds like it's a big, scary thing, or even though, just, like, a big unknown thing, I guess maybe we'll keep the scary part aside.

Divya: Does it make you feel, anxious?

Kahran: No, I feel very differently about it, I think, because a lot of my interactions, I imagine how they will be beforehand and then, often. Right. That's why I also sometimes have so much trouble in, like, getting things going further, because I'm very worried that it won't be as good as I imagined. Or, like, you know, the fantasy of things is just so enthralling. It's like, well, what if we should just stay in the moment of possibility forever? but so it's very. It's very different than how I think about it, because I wouldn't. I just am not. I don't come from that place of not. I've always imagined something kind of, you.

Divya: Know, say more like, what would you have imagined, let's say, in context of, like, you know, the company, what would you have imagined?

Kahran: Oh, like, I can easily imagine, like, you know, what it might be like to walk into, like, one of our offices. Like, you know, because I have this dream that we'll have, like, ten global offices, right? So, like, that what it would be like to kind of like what that feeling would be like, right? To, like, walk in there. What I would think about feeling, like, for clients, for, like, us. Yeah. How I would like people to have that experience. And also I'd, like them to take away. And how. How would I like it for. For people to, I don't know how.

Do you think being able to visualize helps or hinders in college

Basically, like, how I'd like to be talked about, I guess, is what, like, what, what space would you like to be, occupying?

Divya: And you're able to visualize all of that?

Kahran: Yeah, I can almost somewhat visualize the building.

Divya: Do you think that helps you, or does that stop you? Like, does that. So I always feel like there is such a thing as caring too much. Caring too much about something, becomes a hindrance in some ways. Do you feel like being able to visualize the thing makes it easier for you to get move towards it, or makes it harder for you to move.

Kahran: Towards it makes it confusing when you're moving towards it.

Divya: Why not?

Kahran: Because M. Well, I mean, it makes it easier in that there's less unknown unknowns, but it makes it confusing. Like, sometimes it's confusing whether you're making progress or not, because sometimes you might be moving towards it, but you're not moving towards it in a way you understand.

Divya: Correct.

Kahran: And that part is annoying. I don't know. I mean, it's kind of a hard question because when you haven't done it any other way. Right. Like, you don't know what it would be like to do it a different way.

Divya: M and hard and easy are, like, comparative terms. So how would you know?

Kahran: Correct.

Divya: Very interesting. I think for me, the more I can get into the doing part and less into the thinking. So, like, if I start imagining, I know that it stops me from doing the thing, but I have to do it and find the joy in, like, the smaller details and, figure out those smaller things more and more and more. So those are the unknowns that need to be clarified in my brain. So, like, in context of a company, it would be like, you know, like we have talked about, for example, sales or operations or admin or, like, you know, all of these other different branches. And, like, actually pushing more things out in each one of those branches, I'm sure will help me more to visualize the thing. But if I sit and visualize, I'll definitely get in my way.

Kahran: Well, I'm not visualizing those things. I'm just visualizing the, like, overarching experience. Like, it's a feeling, not so much.

Divya: A, that is very interesting, because I don't think that I've ever done that in life. Whatever. The three years that I spent trying to get into college. Right. 11th, 12th, and the gap year, I don't think that I had, even for a second, imagined what being in college would be like.

Kahran: Oh, that's literally how I chose my college, because I had this moment outside the Tufts library, where I was just walking around, and I felt like I could. I just felt like I could feel myself there, right? I was like, this could be my experience. I don't know. It was.

Divya: And you know what is the most weird thing? So, all, college campuses in India have a similar feeling, right. you have, like, a large tower, and then you'll have, like, a circular area in front of the main building. There will be a lot of whatever. Whatever. And so, when I went to my sister's college, I had the exact same feeling that I had when I went to my own college, even though it was totally not my college. So, despite the fact that I had spent five years, the emotion was, pretty similar. So, you could imagine yourself in tufts, and it was unique enough for you before you went there? For me, it wasn't even unique enough after I'd lived there for five years.

Kahran: Oh, that's so funny. Yeah, because I remember it was right after a class had got out or something, or, like, maybe a period was about to start. I don't think we used to call them periods in college. But anyway, so it was just, like, a moment where, like, all these kids were going out of the library and all these other, like, some people were coming in, but I think mostly kids were just going out of the library, and I, like, looked at them, right. And I was just, like, watching all the people, and it was the people that made me feel that way that that's. I feel like the people are what are, different. Right. Like, when I go to the University of Washington, it just feels different because, like, I don't know. Actually, University of Washington feels much more laid back than tufts does. like, people are just chilling, but tufts? No one is just chilling. There's a lot of, like, a little bit of, like, nervous, like, energy that I feel like I really resonated with. It's, like, very stressed about, or at least a little bit stressed about something like, ah, ah. These are my people.

Divya: Wow.

Kahran: Yeah. Quite hilarious.

Divya: This is so amusing. Like, I definitely did not think when we were choosing this topic that this is where we would land. Yeah, I didn't think that we had that huge difference in how we relate to future things.

Kahran: You didn't think that, but now you think that, right?

Divya: Yeah. Clearly, like, a massive difference.

Kahran: Yeah. Because in some ways, it's the thing you were saying about people you feel, like, who want to have written versus being writers. Like, I do think I feel a little bit of that, but it's not that exactly. It's that.

Divya: But you also write.

Kahran: Yeah, so I'm m not even saying it about writing. Right. Like, I would say I was actually thinking about, like, my feelings about having a restaurant or kind of a, like a cafe. Like, I. If I started to think too much about all of the small things that need to be done for it, then I would. I would just, like, become discouraged. But if I think about the feeling that I want people to have when they come and visit it, that's just, like, very exciting to me. And I know that feeling, like, that is the thing that I imagine, and that is the thing that makes me excited about it.

Divya: You know? This is so, amusing, because I think it was like, eight years after I had already been, like, doing design and making art and stuff, and I was having this conversation with one of my very close friends, and I was very distressed. I was like, I don't have an art style. I, like, you know, my art means nothing. And then she was like, and this, is someone who was working in consulting at that time. She had had finance jobs before that. This wasn't someone who was, like, particularly wouldn't call herself a creative person, wasn't someone very close to creativity. And she gave me, like, a mini spot speech on what my art style is and what it means. I was like, wow, that captures it so well, and it also plots to a part of my personality. This is amazing.

You say you're good at figuring out what people need to have

But it was just so weird. Like, after doing it for close to a decade, like, I still needed someone external to tell me that, like, this is what it was about. Like, this is who the feeling is. And, like, I'm just finding it very amusing that you're, like, I know the feeling that people need to have.

Kahran: Yeah, well, I was gonna say, because I think that is a skill in some ways. Right? Like, being able to understand from people what it. Like, I mean, not to not discount your friend. Like, maybe that is something she's very good at, is being able to kind of, like, synthesize in that way and then be able, like, maybe.

Divya: I mean, I'm a design. I mean, I am a designer. I think that I'm okay at, like, you know, figuring out what people. What emotion people would be driven towards and what emotion they might want in this situation. I feel like I'm able to do that, but, yeah, it's just very weird. I don't think that, like, there's something here. M like, how do you. I rather maybe. Maybe make. Let me ask you a harder questions.

What m makes you care about this business or whatever we are doing together

What m makes you care about this business or whatever we are doing together?

Kahran: Oh. Because I can. I have, like, a feeling of what this company could be. That's very exciting. Like, both in terms of, like, the type of work that I think we could, like, bring to the world, but also the type of environment I think we could create for our people. and I feel like it's. It's kind of like trying to figure out who should be your co parent if you have a child. And I feel like we would have a good child.

Divya: You know, when you were giving that answer, I realized that I think I care a lot more about the kind of work that we could be putting out in the world. I think you knew this, than the kind of experience that, people could have with us. I think that was one of the first things that I felt like when we were talking about starting a business together. I felt like, yeah, you can take care of this thing. Clearly, you're invested and you care enough about it and you know enough about it.

Kahran: Like, I mean, this is a little bit of a tangent, but something my dad and I were talking about when we were, like, deep into wedding planning or really, like, right at the end of wedding planning and in the moments of execution, starting. and I was just saying, I feel like a wedding is one of those few places where culturally, you can create an experience for people and then just take them on it. Like, otherwise, culturally, it's not very acceptable. It's, like, kind of weird, like, people. I don't know. Right. Like. Like, people don't expect for you to kind of, like, take them on a curated experience, one that they haven't chosen particularly. Right. Like, people expect to choose their experiences in the day that we live in. But a wedding is very much. You kind of, like, people just show up and then they do whatever you ask them to do. and it just was really fun to be able to have that moment, to be able to create something. To create something that can, you know, can change people or give them a new outlook or something. Right. Like, all of our experiences change us in different ways. so I don't know. I mean, I feel like, sure, you know, having a good client experience is great, but I think more than that, like, I think having an experience or the years that people work with us, like at, like for us or, you know, as consultants or whatever, that those, I feel like I want them to be impactful for people. I've been, I've been really blessed in, like, most of my company so far. I think have been really impactful for, for a lot of my colleagues, and myself.

Every single piece of your wedding was well planned and so well done

Divya: But, what made you care so much about, like, how the wedding experience would be? Because, like, I definitely would say that, like, every single piece of your wedding was so well planned and so well done.

Kahran: It's just that, or more like.

Divya: Why did you not feel tired afterwards? Or, ah, like, you know, most people give up at some point.

Kahran: You only told me this, right? Everything takes about, the same amount of time, so might as well go for the best. It was something I think I paraphrased a little bit, but something like this, you said a long time ago, and I kind of feel like that's true. Right. I don't know. I mean, not to make light of why I think other people find it exhausting, but I think if you can figure out what, if you know yourself and if you've done a lot of project work before, you know, what things you find exhausting and so, you know, kind of like where you need to offload stuff.

Divya: Did you, like.

Kahran: I didn't find it that exhausting until really the end. I think we talked about this, like, the last week or so, two weeks before. It was kind of exhausting, but until then it was really fine. and I think that was just like, I only really had to deal with, like, I found people to take up the things that would, I would find exhausting, basically. Also because a lot of, like, dreaming is never exhausting for me. So it's only when getting into, like, the hows of it that sometimes I find it very exhausting. And so if you could have people to help you with that, then it's. Wedding planners are great.

Divya: I feel like yours were specifically great.

Kahran: Ours were specifically great. I think also they understood a lot of the feel. Right? Like, we managed, I managed to communicate the feel and that was the hardest. And then once you have that and once you can, and then once you can kind of set a tone with certain things. Like, I think for me it was really the food that we kind of just set a tone with the hotel and with our wedding planners about how much we want to care about things. And then that kind of echoes through, right? Like, I didn't ask the hotel to set up a vegan station at every meal. they did that by themselves because they knew that we cared about our vegan guests, and we had talked to them so much about all of our guests that, like, they're like, yeah, fine, we'll just make sure there's a yemenite separate vegan live station for every, every meal. so I think there's some part of that that is very. That makes things easier. It's like, if you can be, if you can figure out what is. What is driving you, then you can figure out where you need to set kind of almost an example. So then those things can percolate through, to give you kind of a different flavor of an example. Like, it's one of the reasons I felt like running early, early stage companies was not something really, like, great for me, because I am not someone who I feel like a lot of really early stage companies need to have good budgetary control and, like, just setting a tone of, like, you know, we watch every dollar, every. Right. And, that's just not somewhere that I kind of come from. Right. Like, I like to more be in a place where I'm like, oh, you know, I trust you're going to figure out things as you will, and also, you know, be cognizant of how much time and energy we're putting into things. And if that means we're not getting the kind of brightest, best prices, that's fine. That's a lot more complex of an understanding to be percolating through an organization. Whereas if you set one where it's like, oh, you know, we're going to need to be able to, like, identify all of our spending. Like, that is easier to percolate through an organization.

Gaurav and I planned our wedding for 15 months

Anyway, so, long story of good way of coming back to your question, which is, I think that we, we were able to kind of set, like, we wanted people to feel. To engage with other people was a big thing that we said from the beginning. We want to create spaces that would let people engage in with people, especially people they didn't know. And then we wanted to just have a feeling, that everything had kind of been taken care of. Right. And that you didn't need to feel stressed about anything. I think, like, setting those tones then managed to kind of percolate the feeling we wanted through.

Divya: That makes sense.

Kahran: But then it also felt like that, well, thank you. But I think, now, why did I grow to care so much about doing something like this, which I think is the question you actually asked. I think there's some amount of, like. Well, I don't know if that's true. No, I think there's some part true. So I think some part of it is obviously, like, you feel a little bit like you have something to prove. when you have my kind of personality and have been to some of the weddings that you have, I've been to, and just like that, you know, I can also do something like this. But I think it was really, like, I, like, ours kind of started this story, right? Like, I think my dad and I had that conversation and, about how a wedding is such an opportunity, to create something for creating experience for people. I think that is just really. It's really special. Right? Like, there's a lot of my friends who are coming to India for their first and maybe only time, and a lot of people I always find so much joy when, like, I get. Because I get to know so many lovely people in my life that, like, when I get to connect those people at just such a special thing. And so I think doing that was a lot of what. How I thought about the events. And then I think, Gaurav has really a sense of, like, elegance. I think that really made everything feel just so much more, like, beautiful. Right? Like, I think that really was how we kind of came together, in doing something like this. yeah.

Divya: Yeah. It was quite the experience. And it also, like, at least for me, it was like, oh, this is why he was planning it for 15 months now. I see.

Kahran: Yeah, yeah.

Divya: I mean, you say that it wasn't exhausting, but I don't think that I've seen anyone plan a wedding for that long.

Kahran: Well, we only were really planning for the last four or five months. You know, there were some stuff that we just took a really long time on. Like, we took, I think, like, eight months on a venue. and, like, those are just really early kind of decisions that you don't really figure out anything else until after that is done. well, that. And, like, how many days is your wedding going to be? And then are you going to have a pre party? If so, where? Yeah, about that.

Divya: But I'm excited about, like, us starting our conversations again and, like, getting back into the groove of the work again.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Because it feels like, I think, like, last month, a lot of things sort of kept, stewing in my brain, which I think over the last, like, whatever, one and a half years, almost two years now that we have been talking, have we haven't, like, don't think there has been space for just letting things stew for a while. I think for both of us, and in a weird way, for me, it was also like, ask, myself, do I care about this thing enough? And thankfully, the answer at the end was, like, oh, yeah, definitely.

Kahran: I don't know if you quite answered why you care about it so much at, ah, any point yet.

Divya: So one part is, like, I think, similar to what you said, that, like, we'll raise a great child. I have that feeling as well that I think we would be able. I think that, like, we would be good co founders. We would be able to build something really interesting. So I generally had this sense of, I've worked a lot with early stage companies, and I don't like that feeling of giving up on the things that are important to you just because you need to make money. And I've seen people do that often, and the problem is that it's not just that they give up on things that are important to them. They also change their identity because the environment is so. Because of the, like, pressures of the environment, because of the pressures from investors, because of the pressures from their team, like, they end up changing who they are.

Kahran: yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Divya: And I think that, like, I'd always found that very exhausting, especially working with that many people. Like, it's fun, but it's also pretty exhausting. And I think that. I just felt. I've always had the sense that, like, with you, that wouldn't happen, because I think that, like, one, you care about the right things. and we care about a lot of similar things and whatever are, I think, important things that I don't care about. I know that you care about them. Yeah, I don't think it's possible to care about all of the things at the same time. And so, like, that's why I think. I'm not sure if I answered your question, but those are the reasons.

Kahran: Yeah.

Divya: Okay. But this was a good conversation. Bye bye. thanks for listening to this episode of thinking on thinking. Our theme music is by Steve Gomes, and you can find a link to it in the show notes.